Snowbeltmom, I think you have done an excellent job articulating how Rhetoric 1 can be a great fit for one student and not so great a fit for another. Having two bright sons with varying interests and associated goals is a great way to frame the two cases. This really helps to paint a fuller picture for those considering such courses for their DC. What you've described for your younger son seems like an excellent fit because of his love of writing. He just can't get enough and actually wants more! Fantastic. It seems tailor-made for this kind of student. This goes back to my AoPS analogy and the tremendous praises we have heard about its virtues including students who just love doing that sort of math. They thrive on it. And in the case of AoPS there are those for whom it simply isn't a good fit which is perfectly fine as well. There is a target audience or student certain courses are more geared toward. Fortunately for us you have one in each camp.

Thanks, snowbeltmom. Your post in light of the other responses and the website itself demonstrates really how much the amount of effort and therefore time spent varies. Each child is so different when it comes to writing ability and speed that what can take one an hour can take another significantly longer. And I'm not even sure if that includes revisions with the WTM papers. Your 10th grader not only loves to write but it seems is relatively efficient with his time spent writing. I wonder if developmental stage could play a role in this as well? For example a 10th grader may be much more advanced in his writing skills than he would have been in 7th or 8th grade taking the same course. The thought of age appropriateness or developmental readiness comes to mind. Thanks for also sharing about Write at Home. I am considering that as a possibility for future courses. Can you please describe the level of student - teacher interaction? I've heard they provide good feedback. Are there any associated lectures regarding writing techniques or methods? Or are those typically from a workbook of some kind? Is the main value added their feedback on papers? Thank you,

I was just thinking the same thing for the folks who may be using Jurgensen without someone to review and grade the proofs. Since some of those lectures do cover the writing of proofs and more could probably be found the main piece left a student will need help with is in refining their proof writing skills. This can be an iterative learning process like learning how to write an effective essay through writing then refining and rewriting. Learning how to write logically complete as well as efficient proofs is something a good Geometry teacher or tutor would best be able to help with. They need to have skills beyond simply following formulas which some of the more modern Geometry textbooks emphasize. I don't think any book, manual or automated grading system will be able to replace this role accurately or effectively. I would explore some of the online options as well like http://www.tutor.com/subjects/geometry

Alas, apparently I spoke to soon. Sorry folks. :sad: When searching for Jurgensen Geometry these came up. After looking at the chapters initially they seemed to match. However after rbk mama's post I looked at them further and though similar there is 'not' a one to one mapping. Some chapters vary more than others. Though the lessons are still relevant it definitely would take some additional mapping to use them. I think they could be used in addition to something else like like askmrh.

I thought you might like these. When I first heard him speak I was thinking the same thing! Like, is this Derek Owens' brother or something? lol :tongue_smilie: VANURSEPRAC, yes, I was thinking about you and your DD with this one. A bit more engaging than Math in a Box I presume. :thumbup:

You guys inspired me to look for more Jurgensen resources. Its like a treasure hunt! :p I found some really good Jurgensen lessons from a teacher who has been using the 'flipped classroom' approach to instruction. I find his presentation style engaging, similar to Derek Owens. There are a few chapters missing. But the rest are there which align with the book. He's even added in a Chapter 0 as a pre-Geometry primer: https://www.youtube.com/user/MrHammysMathClass/playlists

No, that's why I am a bit surprised you found them. It looks like they are from a public middle school teacher's Geometry class in California. Here is his website: http://www.askmrh.com/Home You and VANURSEPRAC are both to be commended for your advanced research and Googling skills in finding these more obscure Jurgensen resources. ;)

Yes, I can understand the concern and somebody has to go first. But being the guinea pig can feel scary, especially when its your child and money. If I am going to spend my hard earned money on any class I have a 'laundry list' of questions I ask the school and/or teacher, usually both. I did this with WHA last year. It was their first year and I felt a bit like a guinea pig myself. Although many of their teachers were already well known through another school. After hearing from both the instructor and the administration I felt comfortable enough that I was making an informed decision in the right direction. I highly encourage you to ask her your tough questions and see how she responds. I wouldn't base everything off the website alone. With regards to refunds that varies a lot per online provider. Her policy is much more lax than WHA, that's for sure. She let's you actually start the course and still receive a refund. I really don't think it's unreasonable. Here is the WHA policy which I think is pretty standard. Note this is all 'before' the start of class: Fees, Payment & Refunds: The tuition may vary by class as specified in the registration system. The total cost is payable at the time of registration. For full year courses, the following withdrawal & refund policy applies: * Withdrawal requests received within 2 weeks of registration and prior to June 1 will receive a 100% refund less a $50 administrative fee. * Withdrawal requests received prior to June 1 and after 2 weeks from the date of registration will receive a 75% refund. * Withdrawal requests received after May 31 and before July 1 will receive a 50% refund. * Withdrawal requests received after June 30 will not receive a refund of any amount.

That's a cool find JadeOrchidSong. It's nice of him to leave his lectures up like that for the general public.

For us this has totally varied per child depending on where they are at. If they need to practice math facts then we add that in. If we want to 'introduce' more abstract concepts while in primary we may use some Hands-on-Equations or fun games they can play on their tablets like DragonBox. Atfer AoPS Intro to Algebra ds13 did TabletClass to review algebraic principles and provide more practice. This year we outsourced Geometry to Wilson Hill Academy for ds13 and that is all he is doing. So for us there is no 'one' right way to do math such as always supplementing or only doing one thing at a time. Those decisions instead are driven by education goals and the tools used to achieve them which 'could' include more than one thing. I don't think number of tools should really matter as long as the goals are being met. In your case it sounds like LoF needs to go if getting in the way of accomplishing your goals. If the youngers are learning fine with MM and some Xtramath thrown in that should be enough. Maybe you don't even need the Xtramath? I don't know. But juggling too much can sometimes take away from the primary learning taking place. Do they enjoy LoF? Is it helping them learn something more? What does it provide that MM doesn't for them? Is it simply just too much to juggle, too crazy to schedule with everything else? Since it is causing falling behind it may be impeding more than helping. That is unless they really need to slow something down because they are just not understanding it, like long division, for example.

Hi Lisa, It *really* sounds like your family enjoys LLfLOTR. But now I'm confused. I thought you were using LToW with your DD this year? Are you actually using both combined in some way? And you do it with your other kids too? It doesn't sounds that crazy at all since our kids love Tolkien as well. ;)

Hi KellyMama, I hope you can get in! I'm not sure how the waiting list goes or if they consider opening up a second (or third) section. Last year there were two times available for ds13. WHA's growth in popularity is a double edged sword for those trying to get into to a particular class. They really fill up quick. My son's Algebra 2 course for the Fall with Anne Stublen filled up within the first few weeks. I registered the first day enrollment opened for continuing students (Feb 1) because there was only one good time for us. My other two options last year if I couldn't get into WHA were Derek Owens and Jann in TX. Neither of which I liked as much for various reasons. Although DO courses are normally highly rated I found some recent reports of problems with his Geometry class specifically. I know Jann puts less emphasis on proofs and she doesn't grade them either. I'm not sure if DO grades homework proofs. If you are considering DO Geometry I recommend looking up some threads discussing it within the last two years or so. Here is one: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/540600-wilson-hill-vs-derek-owens-geometry-and-physics-vs-duke-tip-geometry/?hl=%2Bderek+%2Bowens+%2Bgeometry A new option which VANURSEPRAC brought to my attention on the High School board is Math in a Box with Susan O Johnsey. The classes are very affordable. She uses Jurgensen and also grades the proofs 'I think.' Her website is a bit dated and a little difficult to navigate. But I did find some sample lessons here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufgtqqy_2LE&list=PL2DF37926E8DA97EA&index=1 No one on forum has taken her classes that I'm aware of. Some looking it over did not care for her presentation style. I don't know. To me they are not 'that' bad. I've definitely heard worse. They may be worth checking out if WHA doesn't pan out.

Liza, Given your options and limited budget I would recommend at least keeping Math in a Box with Susan O Johnsey under consideration. I personally didn't find the lectures 'that' bad. And she does provide much more support than TIP including what appears to be grading of proofs. If she does let me tell you that is no small thing! Proofs are an integral part of this text and any associated course. If WHA was out of our reach I would definitely be looking more into her class. Who's to say Seton Hall would be any better? It may in fact provide less teacher support and also have boring lectures.

Hi Lisa, I thought you were planning on doing LTOW2 next year? If so would you consider that as covering the majority of your high school English credit? It seems like LTOW covers composition and literature. Is that your finding? Or do you feel you need separate Comp and Lit courses with possibly some additional grammar thrown in as well? Thanks,

I just asked my son about the mixture of Jurgensen problem types given by WHA. According to him there are some from each section for each homework assignment he gets. The amount of A vs. B vs. C varies with the majority coming from A and B then a few from C. He said there are actually four levels of difficulty when one considers the *C problems. Those are the hardest which he has also done, but not as frequently as any of the others. In terms of change throughout the year he said it has been pretty steady following this same distribution pattern with slight variability depending on the topic. HTH,

I'll have to check with my son later since I'm at work. I know he has been doing all three levels (A/B/C) from the beginning through WHA. I'm just not sure of the mix or if that has changed over the year.

Wow RootAnn, Thanks for the detailed information. I've always wondered what came with the TIP program as it seemed a little vague in their description online. Regarding the Solutions Manual, though somewhat skimpy, ds13 said he does like seeing the basic steps vs. just the answers. He uses it daily to check his homework. And he is doing really well in the course but still has questions which is a normal part of learning, IMO. With regards to proofs, yes, I could not see using this book and 'not' teaching proofs. It's so integral to the course and Jurgensen's style of writing on the topic. Where WHA really comes in is the way the instructor trains the students to write poofs and to do so effectively and efficiently. As we know there are many ways to write proofs similar to the many ways one can write an essay. The instructor guides students in form, technique, logical flow and efficient style. The grading is just one part of that training. Sometimes she gives partial credit with detailed explanations and examples in how to improve one's overall approach. This is her forte. These are also the parts there is no way I could have done or even faked. Its just been too long since I've written Geometric proofs and didn't really have the time to relearn them.

Wow, from a linguist to an accountant. What a switch! As crazy as that sounds to us parents when trying to map out a plan for college change is 'so' very common at this life stage. I changed majors a lot myself and then careers later in life which included going back to school for graduate work. Another mom on here posted about her humanities focused daughter who wanted to be a musician and was accepted into a very exclusive music school. But after one year had enough of it and decided to switch majors to math. Fortunately for her, her parents made her complete math through Calculus 'even if she would never use it' in her career. ;)

We are waiting on foreign language beyond 9th grade. We may even look for dual enrollment to get the lower division done for college simultaneously. Many others put greater emphasis on these courses including multiple languages. So it varies a lot of the forum. But for us it is a lower priority than certain other subjects.

There have been many great suggestions. One of my favorite points which I have to remember also was made by Momto2Ns: "Your plans for individual subjects are good. It is just the sum of the parts that I see as a problem." I have talked with other zealous homeschool parents with older kids and have been gently warned not to burn our ds13 out like they did with their dc in all their fervor. So I have to take a step back and look at everything together. Then decide where I want to put the primary focus and possibly back off on some things. Everything can't be super rigorous and time consuming. Otherwise he'll have no life outside his freshman year. And I certainly don't want to burn him out before the 'really' tough stuff comes in his later high school years including some AP and dual enrollment. With regards to math I hope you take my recommendation with a grain of salt. I definitely believe math should be one of your son's most important areas to focus on given his interests. Having solid math skills will serve him well in all those areas. I'm glad to hear you got TabletClass to help supplement his current program. I would also have to agree with others that AoPS may 'not' be the best choice since it is the polar opposite of TT in terms of difficulty. Even though ds13 liked AoPS Algebra he is very much a natural at math and enjoys it. He was acing everything else 'until' I threw AoPS at him. And it was truly challenging him in a way nothing else had before. There are some ridiculously hard problems at times, especially the challenge problems. After that experience I definitely wouldn't recommend AoPS to the majority of students, even those who are good at math. There are a lot of other very solid, college prep math programs out there. I think Jann in TX is a good recommendation, along with WilsonHillAcademy. DerekOwens is also another highly regarded program. TPS math may be very good as well. As some have said slow and steady wins the race. I look forward to seeing your revised schedule.

I would say the Jurgensen text itself is a meaty Geometry book, one which many prep schools use because of its great coverage of proofs, among other topics. That said, I think the average math student can keep up given all the support which is available through WHA. However, I base my perspective on my son's experience who is generally good at math. Throughout the course he's come upon some tough problems in the book. But it was nothing he couldn't handle with help from the teacher when needed. His average is in the upper 90s whereas with AoPS it was not as high. Though AoPS is not designed to get 100% even if the student is bright. If you have an average math student I think he could keep up. You just have to keep in mind it is a solid college prep style math course requiring adequate time and effort daily. CSI Science was a new thing for us. I was looking for a high quality Life Science that was not as heavily weighted toward YEC like Apologia which we also use. It has been a very good text overall and one which ds13 does really likes. He is mostly independent with that course. WWS, I believe, takes more of my wife's time reviewing over his writing, making corrections and recommendations for improvement. I think it is designed to be a bit more interactive with the teacher in that way. Next year we are considering Lost Tools of Writing which will also require more of her time than his other subjects. We are waiting for high school to do foreign language, possibly dual enrollment.

LOL, I wish, RootAnn. :D :tongue_smilie:

Thanks for both reviews, Luckymama and teachermom. It's nice to see two sides of the coin on this. I can imagine my son would probably have a similar experience as teachermom's ds. He is a reluctant but compliant writer. It's just not his favorite subject. He would much rather spend more time on math and science. So spending long hours on writing and rewriting, no matter how wonderful the teacher, is not going to thrill him.

Yes, I was thinking the same thing. It also seems like a lot more time is wasted during that daily hour of class time. I remember day dreaming and being 'bored to tears' during most high school English classes. For homeschool families we have the advantage of maximizing that down time. With regards to the integration of literature, composition and grammar, yes, it is a one stop shop in high school English. In that sense it can be a little harder to find something covering all aspects. And if you have 'two' writing courses (lit and comp) then that can also double the work or time spent. Since there are only so many hours in the school day and many important and somewhat less important subjects to cover its a real balancing act for sure.

Hi JadeOrchidSong, It's sounds like you have thought through several good options for your son. I typically recommend more than one pass through Algebra 1 since it is so foundational to all other math which follows. However two passes can look different for different students including the amount of time spent. The second pass could be spent mainly reviewing over areas that were somewhat fuzzy or difficult the first time through. There are many good books and other materials which could be used for a second pass. We own Foerster and Dolciani. However we chose TabletClass because that is what ds13 started with before AoPS. He really likes the short lessons explaining the concepts and associated problems that follow. I like how efficient TC is at getting right to the point. In addition there are tests for each section which I used to evaluate his strengths/weakness to help determine where more work needed to be done. We did TC over the Summer skipping areas I felt he knew solidly enough after testing. We didn't quite finish everything I thought we could have. But he had reviewed enough Algebra that I thought he was well prepared to move into Geometry at that point. For him to spend another 'full' school year in Algebra 1 probably would have been overkill after AoPS. Yet I think this varies per student depending on how well Algebra went the first time through and how much was retained. I may go longer with my daughters if they struggle more with Algebraic concepts the first time through, for example. I'm not sure in your son's case since it does vary per child. I think you will best judge of that depending on how well Algebra is going this first pass through. I also recommend taking a look at the Jurgensen text if you can. I wouldn't say there is a lot of Algebra 'review' as much as that Algebra is integrated well into the course. One of the nice things with WHA is the teacher availability if the students ever run into to problems they don't understand or need help on. They spend the first 30 minutes of each class going over questions related to their homework. I think this really helps a lot. I can't comment on TIP since we haven't used it. I've only looked at some of the comments of others who have. WHA is a great option. It's really a full math program with all the support needed which has exceeded our expectations. So I obviously can recommend it. But that doesn't mean there are not other good options available. Its just nice to know we found something that really works well for us and therefore don't have to be concerned about math anymore. Let me tell you, that feels like a big weight being lifted off your shoulders when it happens. Its one less 'important' thing to have to plan for during the very busy high school years which are quickly approaching.