We supplemented CLE with MM gradually in the beginning, once a week. It worked fine as supplemental. You can either try to synch up with the areas you are currently working on or work about one semester behind to elaborate on concepts learned. We did the later then increased usage over time and eventually switched to MM. But you could easily continue with CLE and supplement with MM.

Saxon is 'very' spiral in nature and for some students it is painfully so. Like any math program it works better for some than others. Saxon seems to be a watershed program in this way. I don't think I've ever seen any other program with as many strong like/dislike reviews. All that says to me is it is not for every child. The description you have given for you ds seems like classic symptoms of this possibly not being the best fit for him. If changing stresses you out maybe cut out some of the spiral/redundant aspects of the program. I know for CLE, which we used and is also spiral, many parents will move ahead once a child demonstrates mastery. Spiral by its very nature is redundant to some extent. It is designed this way to help reinforce concepts learned. If a student is bright and quick to learn this may seem like talking down to them intellectually since they 'got it' the first time. In those cases a mastery program like Math Mammoth, Singapore, et al may actually be a better fit and more interesting to them.

Not Elisabet1, but we've used Jurgensen this school year and are nearing the finish now. It has been an excellent text with a strong emphasis on proofs. We thoroughly enjoyed using it while attending WilsonHillAcademy. Having a highly skilled instructor available to provide elaboration of the concepts, grade the proofs and answer all ds13's questions was money well spent, worth every penny for us. There are actually a lot of support options for Jurgensen including these free, full lectures covering the entire text: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6BEUDglnGZv5miNh-nMTtpHCM-HHhk2A Here is one recent thread discussing some of the other support options: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/542377-jurgenson-geometry/?hl=%2Bjurgensen&do=findComment&comment=6216417 Are you open to an outside teacher? Or do you prefer doing it yourself?

Take a look at WilsonHillAcademy. They offer 'live' online courses with excellent teacher/student interaction and support. After such a positive experience with WHA this year we've decided to outsource all future math courses. I highly recommend outsourcing at this stage and beyond based on what you've described with your ds. Once you find a good fit it feels like a large weight is lifted off your shoulders!

Halcyon, that's really great to hear! I wasn't sure if this was just a 'honeymoon phase' at first before things got more demanding. It sounds like you've found a good fit for him. I bet you are glad you tried a variety of programs now. Learning to work with deadlines, quizzes, tests and other academic expectations from an outside teacher has been great for ds13 at WHA this year. He really rose to the occasion, though not without struggle and stretching. I've been telling him that kids in High School have to normally juggle six classes concurrently with six different teachers and associated assignments. Next year for 9th grade we will be outsourcing 3-4 courses. So it will give him a new opportunities to learn to juggle more outside classes while working on his time management skills. Kids are sometimes more adaptable than we might expect. Change is just such a normal part of their life that I think they take it more in stride than adults sometimes do.

It sounds like her hands are full! Thanks for letting us know.

If that is the case then buying the AoPS pre-A book may be worth the investment. The fact that she could go through a portion of that chapter without a lot of drama is a very promising indicator. At the very least you could use AoPS along with something a bit more gentle if it gets overwhelming by itself. And don't forget to show her these excellent accompanying videos by the author: http://artofproblemsolving.com/videos/prealgebra We've used the Pre-A videos even though we didn't use the Pre-A text. ds13 really likes how engaging they are.

Shay, Based on what you've shared about your ds it sounds like Dolciani may be a very good fit. Combine that with the excellent instructors at WHA and you have a winning combination. We are very pleased with the WHA math courses including their interactive nature with both teacher and fellow students. Our son really thrives in this sort of environment which we have discovered. Regarding the 'Mystery Teacher' I recommend PM'ing annabanana1992. There is only so much they can share in open forums such as this. But via private discussions I understand they can provide more details.

I agree with the others in considering other more rigorous math which develops concepts at deeper levels including problem solving skills like Art of Problem Solving. Foerster really stands out for practical and challenging word problems. Dolciani is excellent as well. Those three would be on my short list. It wouldn't hurt to pick a few resources to have on hand for supplemental problem solving anyway. Then if he really likes one better you could easily switch completely out of TT. Many times folks supplement TT as is does not have the rigor or challenge of other solid programs. If he is STEM directly and capable, TT could easily bore him if overly simplistic and repetitive. That could easily make math less enjoyable and more monotonous.

Based on her other additional work she may be ready for Pre-Algebra. Although we've used Khan quite a bit in a more targeted fashion I'm not sure about the completeness of their S&S. I've also not seen the level of rigor in the questions which other challenging programs have like AoPS, Dolciani, TabletClass, etc... Regarding your original question, there are quite a few pre-A options available with a wide spectrum of difficulty levels and greater or lessor scope. In fact, I think Pre-A curriculum varies more widely in just about every aspect than any other math level. Some focus more on review of elementary math with a little bit of 'easy' algebraic reasoning thrown in. While others dive right into meaty Algebra topics like solving linear equations. See one example of this here: http://aops-cdn.artofproblemsolving.com/products/prealgebra/exc2.pdf

I would caution some here as I've heard AoPS 'pre-tests' are notoriously easy relative to AoPS itself which is 'never' easy. In fact it is one of the most challenging math programs available starting with a lot of Algebraic reasoning in Pre-A. ds13 used AoPS Intro to Algebra and it was quite challenging by design. The reason I caution you is that sometimes parents get a bit overzealous only to discover their child is not ready for the level of rigor which AoPS presents. For example, expect to have them wrestle with single problems for over an hour at times. Learning to struggle with really difficult problems and persevere over time is a skill which needs to be developed. That's par for the course. It wouldn't hurt to give it a shot. Sometimes challenges like this are fun for bright kids, especially if they love math. You could potentially introduce it gradually along with another program to gain a better sense of fit. Take a look at the sample chapters provided on their website. AoPS Alcumus is also free and something good to use as gauge as well. In the case of the OP, has your dd really mastered primary mathematics yet? Do you feel confident that you can skip the last year of CLE 600 including the topics covered? I recommend at least looking that over the S&S on page 40 before making that decision: https://www.clp.org/documents/5748/original/2015-2016_Elementary_Scope_and_Sequence.pdf

Hi Mirabillis, I didn't notice your post at first. Based on the detail you've provided here I recommend you complete Dolciani which is really solid Algebra. That is your inclination anyway which I think is correct. Then after Dolciani there are a number of ways to fill out a second year of Algebra including more rigorous problems from AoPS Intro to Algebra. Having a firm foundation in Dolciani will really prepare him well for more challenge to follow. The only thing I would caution on is to not spend too much time of the areas he has already mastered. Maybe move through to the more difficult problems and even consider skipping certain sections which may be overly redundant. You will have to gauge that with him. AoPS will challenge anyone regardless of how much Algebra they have taken. Doing some pre-Geometry would be fine as well. Much will depend on where you plan for him to go next in 9th grade. In our case we were planning of doing pre-geometry before starting Jurgensen Geometry at WHA. However after AoPS Intro to Algebra (1-13) ds13 needed more time reviewing Algebraic principles over the Summer. So instead we went right into full Geometry this past Fall and it worked out wonderfully. Having solid Algebra and problem solving skills has been key to Geometry success for him. The fact that we skipped pre-geometry hasn't effected his progress at all. That's not to say it wouldn't provide enrichment. It just wasn't necessary in our case.

I was also curious about Notgrass.

It's a bit ironic that the general topic came up today at work during the lunch hour. One of the dads was talking about how fast his kids are growing up, especially his oldest son. I asked 'it's kinda hard isn't it?' To which he replied 'yeah, definitely! Its seems like just yesterday that he was small, telling jokes and playing around the house.' His oldest is now 19, 6'3", lives on his own and works full time. I know 13 years doesn't seem that long at all for our oldest! Nan, I don't know if you still check back in. But this post is really encouraging and has been for many years for countless parents going through this same phase. These three things are key for me to consider: * Listen, really listen * Mourn the child is disappearing * Help them to look forward to the nice thing of adulthood I admit these are all really hard for me, some more than others. Yes, it's ok to mourn. I have many times tried to suppress this - too emotional I guess. But when you think about it its only natural, really. That beautiful baby boy or girl is now becoming a young man or women. That little child in all their silly, funny, chubby, big, bright eyed ways is gone as we knew him/her. It was a crazy, fun time like no other.

Awesome post and reminder! Thanks for bumping it, Quark! I sure love this community. Sometimes when you homeschool you can feel alone during these developmental milestones, especially when you don't talk about it much. Sometimes its easier to be reminded and encouraged on a forum like this with others who are experiencing or have experienced similar things. It's especially hard for us with ds13, our first and only baby boy, that's for sure. And men don't typically talk about all this emotional stuff, at least not very often. But yeah, it is a real challenge for us none the less. This feels like just yesterday, really. :) I think most of you going through it can relate:

One last twist on the California DOE requirements I discovered which I think I must have heard before: Are students of private high schools required to complete the 13 minimum courses for graduation? No. Private high schools have the authority to set their own graduation requirements. However, many private high schools do include at least the state minimum courses in order to ensure that students transitioning to or from public schools have less disruption in their progress toward graduation. -- http://www.cde.ca.gov/ci/gs/hs/hsgrfaq.asp#Q3 What courses must my child take to graduate from high school? Private schools including home based private schools and private independent study programs create their own graduation requirements. If you are enrolled in a PSP, check with your school for requirements. -- http://www.californiahomeschool.net/how-to-homeschool/faq-high-school/ The way I understand this is that we are not bound to CA DOE for High School graduation. Rather, we set our own requirements as private schools based on the criteria we deem most important. So following UC's A-G guidelines, for example, would be perfectly acceptable.

Wow, I had no idea the price shot up that much. That's crazy expensive for that old book! I did a quick search and found one for $60 (with CDN exchange rate). But that's still too expensive, IMO. When I looked a few years ago they were much less. However, after checking it out from Open Library I was somewhat underwhelmed when comparing it to Forester, Dolciani and AoPS for ds13. Though I'm not ruling it completely for our dds, depending on how they do in Pre-A.

You may not have missed much depending on the school and subjects taken. I did just the opposite, taking a lot of GEs, and mostly remember heavy political agendas/biases which, if not agreed, became problems. I've never been one to massage teachers' egos either. Those were some interesting fireworks. ;) Then there were the junk science courses like nutrition based on things like USDA 'facts' of the day. I did enjoy some like music history. I see the problem not so much in taking electives one may enjoy, but rather being forced to take things like US History again which one may not really care for. I actually went back and took other classes for enjoyment like furniture making at the local CC. I also went back and took quite a few psychology and Bible courses among other humanities from several different colleges/universities. I found them all very enjoyable, for the most part. The other big difference today versus when I went to college is the overall higher cost of education vs. the huge variety of MOOC courses available from some of the best schools in the nation. If one wants to study Ancient History, Machine Learning, you name it, most are available online. That's a huge paradigm shift and new way to learn from some of the best and brightest in their respective fields. For example, I took an MIT course recently on Overcoming the Challenges of Big Data which was excellent. The instructors were extremely knowledgeable in this growing area. There was no way to get that kind of instruction way back in the 'stone ages' unless one actually went to MIT and spent thousands upon thousands of dollars doing so.

I still remember the pain of Calculus, Physics, Chemistry (5 units!), English and the other GE 'fluff' courses I was required to take. I know many love History/Econ/Social Studies, etc... Heck, some even major in these areas and there is nothing wrong with that at all. But it just wan't my focus or thing as a 19 y/o STEM student. It can really detract from one's main area of focus. Though, I do agree with the comments earlier regarding writing as essential for any major.

What I like even less is to require our kids to take all of these courses, then in college to have these same courses required again in the form of lower division requirements. Freshman and Sophomore years are busy enough, especially for STEM students. Then to hoist repetitive GE courses on top of an already busy schedule seems unnecessary, IMO.

Well, a secondary consideration is California DOE's mandatory High School graduation requirements. Unfortunately, it appears they require three years of a very specific type: Three years of history/social studies, including one year of U.S. history and geography; one year of world history, culture, and geography; one semester of American government and civics, and one semester of economics. --http://www.cde.ca.gov/ci/gs/hs/hsgrtable.asp It seems odd that they exceed both UC and CSU in this one area while only requiring two years of math and science. This seems kind of backwards to me in terms of priorities. Dual enrollment looks better all the time for some of this stuff.

Ok, I admit I am not sure about 4 credits needed for History/social studies for CA Universities. If I'm missing something someone please enlighten me. The UC A-G requirements seems to clearly state two years here: A) History/social science UC-approved high school courses Two years of history/social science, including: one year of world history, cultures and geography (may be a single yearlong course or two one-semester courses), and one year of U.S. history or one-half year of U.S. history and one-half year of civics or American government ... -- http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/freshman/requirements/a-g-requirements/ Whether other universities require more than two years is another question. I'm simply asking about University of California standards which is what we are targeting.

I know this is an old thread but was wondering the same thing.

You have many options. The best choice for your ds will depend on a number of factors including (but not limited to): * Readiness for full geometry vs. wanting some pre-geometry first * Level of rigor aiming for * Desire to provide more proof based geometry vs. something which is more proof light (more common) * Amount you want to teach including your ability to grade proofs * Online & DVD options vs. exclusively from a book at home Here is a thread discussing the various options including rationale: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/514183-epic-thread-of-geometry-programs-or-geometry-thread-of-epic-proportions/?hl=geometry Once you narrow down a few top choices you can then compare and contrast them. I recommend taking a look at samples or demos 'with' your ds before making a final decision. We really enjoy Jurgensen Geometry which is a strong proof based text. ds13 has been studying it through Wilson Hill Academy which has been an excellent program overall. He really enjoys math instruction in this live, interactive environment. Having an instructor available to answer all his questions and grade the proofs has proven to be money well spent.

What type of learner do you have when it comes to math? What approach has worked best in the past? Have you looked at them both yet? Another way to help decide is to pick them both up and have you and your dc look them over. Both are relatively inexpensive on the used market. Having more than one resource is also beneficial when wanting supplemental materials. Sometimes having another way of explaining a concept can help when a child just isn't getting things in the spine program. Or they may just need extra practice problems before moving on.