Wow, yeah. She really didn't want to discuss math, especially algebra! ;) Ok, at first I thought were doing a more hands-off homeschooling, if there is such a thing. Actually the closest I have heard to this approach is the Robinson Method which we actually liked very early on. He didn't believe in helping his homeschooled kids with their work as he found it more educational if they discover the answers on their own. Maximum independence was his mantra. Upon reflection, I see how part of this came about after his wife died tragically and he was left with the option of continuing homeschooling while working or sending them to public school. He chose the prior and it actually worked out fine for his six children, all things considered of course. His curriculum is based largely upon that experience.

Wow, your mom sure dodged that bullet! Mine was not so lucky I'm afraid, though she was a great help I must admit. All this in spite of my teenager ways. But now you have me curious. With 5 of your own do you somehow avoid helping them like your mother did with you? If so, I wonder how you pull that off? :D

Yeah, I just re-read your update and its funny how our plans change, especially when using a variety of sources. We had something similar occur reminding me of 'the best laid plans of mice and men.' ;) I think you really hit the nail on the head though when focusing on something which works. Nowhere does it say that getting from point A (primary math) to point B (secondary math) has to be a straight line. I really like that you are flexible enough to be tailoring things as you go. Now that Algebra with Jacobs snuck up and you are heading down that road are you still considering AoPS (algebra or geometry) for the future? The reason I ask is that it is also my opinion that taking two passes through Algebra is perfectly fine, especially if dealing with super challenging material such as AoPS. In addition, AoPS Geometry is reported to be one of their most challenging courses. So maybe something else would help first before that. Although some AoPS seems to be the best prep for more AoPS. We decided to go with Jugensen for Geometry at WHA instead, primarily because I wanted someone else to grade the proofs. What I found was that it was not only helpful having an instructor grade the proofs but to instruct in good form as well. For example, a proof could be terribly verbose yet logically correct. The instructor would then demonstrate how to write proofs more efficiently, which I really love. I see this same thing in my profession as a software engineer. Someone can write a program which might 'work' yet is horribly inefficient.

I wanted to give another perspective on this for those considering their options. We were in the same boat last year before starting Geometry. After AoPS Intro to Algebra we really wanted to do a pre-geometry. We have Patty Paper and were also planning on purchasing CTC's Understanding Geometry. We were going to do it last Summer before Jurgensen Geometry which was starting in the Fall at WHA. I knew it was a rigorous course and wanted some conceptual development and practice beforehand. Well, as things sometimes happen in homeschooling, ds13 felt he needed more practice with algebraic fundamentals after AoPS. He had the concepts, he just needed more practice. So, instead of working on pre-geometry we ended up working through parts of TabletClass Algebra to solidify his skills. Now, as he approaches the end of Jurgensen Geometry I am happy to see that he has excelled in the course and really does enjoy it. This isn't to say a pre-geometry would have been a bad idea. Rather, for those who may run out of time, it may not be as critical to your dc's success as you might imagine. I definitely see it as an enrichment opportunity if time permits. Just don't feel too bad if you do not dedicate enough time or rigor toward pre-geometry before starting full geometry. That said, all of our kids have had introductions to some 'basic' geometric concepts throughout their math training. They love DragonBox Elements and our son's favorite hobby is Origami. There were some intro concepts in their curriculum, but beyond that we did nothing else to prepare and were fine. Solid algebra and problem solving skills were really key for ds13. ETA: One last caveat, I know all kids are different and for ds13 these concepts including constructing logical proofs comes relatively naturally. The fact that he has scored highly with no formal prior training may not be the same for other children including our younger dds. I'm just not sure how one could measure the effectiveness of taking extra pre-geometry vs. not. Maybe it falls into the category of better to error on the side of more preparation than less if given the opportunity?

It sounds like a combo on hormones, brain stretching and wanting desperately to work independently. But then hating to admit one still need mom's help! Now if we are truly honest with ourselves here is an interesting question. Were we even as conflicted as young teens? I know I have vague (possibly trying to suppress/forget) flashbacks of asking my mom for help on my papers, then telling her 'No, No, you don't understand!' in a very frustrated, obnoxious teenager fashion. She somehow managed to get through it and still help me, Lord only knows how. But not without first questioning her own sanity and mine, I'm sure. :tongue_smilie: Maybe some of you were more of the calm, easy going teen types. When it came to writing papers I definitely was not during those years. :ohmy: Math was a different story. I don't think I ever asked for her help nor did I need it. I think that, at least partially, added to the frustration. While I had mastery in some areas I felt like a complete flop in others. Argh!!!

There is another thread in the Logic Stage forum where a number of parents discuss the time commitment for their middle and high school students. The overall consensus seems to be it varies greatly on a student by student basis. So I caution you to compare using a sample size from only 1 or 2 parents. It definitely appears to be on the rigorous, demanding side. Based on the comments as well as the website I think its too much for our son for 9th grade. Here is the thread: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/542696-wtm-academy-intro-to-rhetoric-or-rhetoric-i-for-8th-grader/

I think the author was struggling to find something meaningful to write about. Unfortunately, its mostly uninspiring drivel casting far too much blame on the Silicon Valley for the apparent lack of middle class jobs. It doesn't take into account all the solid STEM jobs created by these companies not to mention the many other jobs being created by companies 'not' in the Silicon Valley.

Dolciani is a classic Algebra text, without a doubt. This was the book many on the forum used way back when, including myself. The fundamental principles of Algebra haven't changed since. :p

It's a 'buyer beware' program with some seeming to love it and others not really caring for it. We had high hopes for it in spite of some of the negative or mediocre reviews. Before this we had used Apologia, primarily. After buying the program and reviewing it over we were significantly underwhelmed, unfortunately. It was one of those live and learn homeschool experiences. I had heard some reviews comment on it being too limited or light. After actually getting to see it I just couldn't get myself to commit to using it as a spine for a year if that's all there was too it. It wasn't horrible, just nothing really that great, especially when considering the cost. Its rather skimpy, IMO, and would better used with something else. We ended up selling it, cutting our losses and starting again in search of something more academically substantive.

Here is a listing of Pre-Calculus options from the recent High School math thread: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/542418-homeschool-high-school-math/?do=findComment&comment=6191110

You may also want to consider an online class which provides more instructor input and feedback such as Derek Owens or Wilson Hill Academy. While definitely more challenging than MUS they would better prepare him for any future math courses to follow. If you don't want an online course then as Momto2Ns suggested Lials or Foerster are good choices. The one thing to consider is how much teacher involvement will be required on your part? Are you expecting this to be mostly independent?

I agree with the others. You can do most of what you want with various online High School course providers. They typically give you the grades for a particular course taken and you keep the records. That said, there are providers that have *all* the courses a student needs to complete High School. And as such may even have a graduation ceremony. For example, Wilson Hill Academy, where our son is attending, meets just about all of your criteria. It is a classical Christian academy. I can highly recommend them, even if you only take classes a la carte. Take a look at the school here: http://www.wilsonhillacademy.com/ They also have a list of required courses to graduate here: http://www.wilsonhillacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Graduation-Requirements.pdf We have been so pleased with the overall format and professionalism that we have already signed up for the Fall.

Hi Vanurseprac, I've never seen any asynchronous WHA classes. They tend to emphasize the interactive teacher/classroom component which is a big plus for us. I think the closest you would get would be to take an early morning class eastern time. For example an 8AM ET course would start at 7AM CT. Then your dc would have to go to school after 8:30AM twice a week. Maybe you could work something out with the school explaining that he is doing sort of a 'zero' period for math. I'm not sure if they would go for that. But it might be worth a try. He will definitely be doing something 'academic' which you could demonstrate as opposed to going fishin'. ;)

Yes, check out Wilson Hill Academy. ds13 is in their Geometry class this year after AoPS Intro to Algebra last year. It is a strong program using excellent classical texts which in this case is Jurgensen for Geometry. The 'live' personal interaction they provide with the teacher and classmates make this an top notch option for homeschool families. Our son loves the interactive nature and the opportunity it affords to ask all of his questions. They offer two 90 minute sessions per week which is great, similar to college courses. Derek Owens was our second choice. But for around the same cost WHA offered more including the grading of all homework proofs and the live aspect. I also prefer Jurgensen as a Geometry text. It is used by many honors Geometry programs. We are enrolled in Algebra 2 for the Fall and classes are filling up quickly. Our son's class time is already full. So if you might be interested take a look at the schedule in terms of available time slots.

Great find, bookerdawg! :thumbup:

Halcyon, That will be great if you can get into the class. If your son likes interaction then you really can't go wrong with WHA. The one thing I will caution you on is the waitlist. I'm not sure if you've talked with the administration yet about this. Because I know the courses book up, I would want a plan B or secondary time which wasn't full. Maybe that is something you can work out with the school? In college this is a common practice when it comes to waiting lists. Typically, you can enroll for a different time/teacher and then get on a waiting list in case another 'preferred' option opens up.

Ok, that makes much more sense now. Yes, then you do have to map out High School math for her and that presents some challenges. Obviously you have to start where she is at and build from there. A good place for an older student is to consider Lial's basic college math which reviews primary mathematics along with some basic algebraic reasoning. But she may not be quite ready for that yet. Or you could do BCM in conjunction with CLE. At this stage I think an outside tutor and/or teacher would really help. I highly recommend talking with Jann in Texas about your daughter. She teaches many homeschoolers on here and offers tutoring among other things. Take a look here: http://www.myhomeschoolmathclass.com/course-descriptions.html Can you work over the Summer on math as well? Freshman year will most likely be getting all the basic more solid and, if possible, preparing for Algebraic reasoning. It will depend how well next year goes in terms of Algebra preparedness. But that is the target after primary skills are solidified.

It's not quite clear to me which one(s) you're asking for more info on? I. The older seems to be easy to plan for. So does that mean you've already mapped out math for her? II. The younger in 5th is having significant math troubles, correct? If your question is more geared toward the younger, I would encourage you to focus on getting through elementary mathematics as well as possible first. I wouldn't try to map out all of High School for her as she is still very young and things could change as she develops both cognitively and emotionally. CLE is a safe place to start. It is very user friendly and its spiral nature provides many opportunities for reinforcement. Once she has primary math completed satisfactorily then look at Pre-Algebra and Algebra programs next. Sometimes an online class can help with teacher and tutoring support like Jann in Texas or TabletClass. But please, don't try to take this all on at once or it can feel overwhelming. Our middle dd struggles with math also unlike our oldest. Its a day at a time, week at time and so forth with her. MM is also a challenge for her and we may supplement with CLE next year for 6th grade. That is something we are actually still deliberating over. Much depends on how well she finishes 5th grade MM.

I didn't try from the publisher. It could very well be cheaper if you find a way to do that. Instead, I found a good used one for $61 last year. That still seemed too high. But it has been useful for ds13's class.

If you can watch video lessons a couple of times a week then that is all it takes to participate in many high quality online programs such as Derek Owens and Wilson Hill Academy. Typically, these online courses meet twice a week which are either live or asynchronous. After AoPS Intro to Algebra we moved to Wilson Hill Academy for Geometry and ds13 loves it. The usage of Jurgensen for Geometry was a big selling point for me as it does not water down proofs like so many other more modern texts or curricula. The teacher grades the proofs which includes instruction on refining one's form, making sure the proofs are logically complete and efficient. That is something a book or DVDs by themselves will have a hard time fullfilling. Having this kind of direct feedback from a skilled math instructor is worth it in our case. We like WHA so much we've already signed up for Algebra 2 this coming Fall.

Great, thanks. I really think you may be on to something about 'not' combining both programs. I guess I just need to review over other relevant and interesting works from that era beyond LOTR and the Hobbit. Are there any others your kids have especially liked which you think could make a good fit? Or is there a good list you've used to select from? Admittedly, literature is not my strong point. Thanks,

Thanks, 1Togo. That helps a lot. ds13 loves Tolkein and LoTR among other works. So I was actually toying with the idea of combining LToW with Literary Lesson from Lord of the Rings or something less formal we put together with books from that era ourselves. Then possibly combine history from a similar era to integrate subjects even further. Regarding 'free writing' I'm not quite sure what that means within the context of Bravewriter beyond the most obvious, literal definition. Basically, just start writing what comes to mind and then organize the thoughts later or something to that effect. Is that 'generally' how its used?

We have Anne Stublen for Algebra 2. She just so happened to message me just to say she looks forward to teaching my son. I've heard great things about her class this year from another WTM parent. I've also heard on the forum that the 'mystery' teacher is actually someone who is highly recommended as well. One parent said she was 90%+ sure he will be teaching it. Though I don't recall his name. WHA seems to hire cream of the crop teachers for their classes and it shows when you speak to the families attending. Consequently, I don't think you can go wrong with either instructor.

Wilson Hill is amazingly good and very interactive. Its ds13's favorite math class yet! He thrives on the interaction between the teacher and fellow students. I like the use of excellent classical math texts like Jurgensen for Geomerty and Dolciani for Algebra I & II. As Matryoshka said, the religious aspect is there in terms of opening prayer, but the focus is math, not theology. There are no additional religious materials or associated test questions, etc... Its math, plain and simple (or not so simple). ;) He's signed up for Algebra 2 this Fall, BTW. And yes, the classes are very popular and fill up quickly! His particular time slot is already full. But there 'may' still be other times available. I would check soon if you are even remotely interested.

Very good point. We've discovered this the hard way starting out with a 'popular' homeschool math program with some of the other families in our area. If math is too easy, boring or both many times there is something wrong. It should not be pain free and come without significant wrestling and struggling. I can't help but wonder if making something easier than intended is a way for some to 'help' their dc along. If one struggled or had a bad experience with math themselves this might seem like a plausible approach. Let's not make it too hard on them. I can see there being a place for some of this with a truly struggling or math challenged student. But generally speaking, I think those deficiencies can be addressed within the context of solid curriculum. Some may struggle more than others in certain areas. That's just a fact of life, even in the workplace. I've seen this with engineers I've worked with. It's not always the brightest ones who end up being the greatest contributors but rather those who sometimes struggle more and don't give up. Once they get it they are so excited to conquer the next problem and so on. Learning to struggle with difficult problems and persevere is really key with math. If that is taken out of a curriculum or greatly diminished I don't see much value added beyond simply getting them through it - basic survival.