One of the most interesting thing I saw in this calculator is how strongly demographics are correlated with "class". My ##s put us in "upper" class which was 16% of the population in our metro area (20% nationally). Curiously, my demographics (white, college educated, married, age) indicate that 58% of of folks in my demographics are "upper" income nationally (as opposed to 20% across the board). Demographics are still destiny to a large degree in our country . . . Rather sad, to me.

This concept of it being necessary to "use" your degree is a little personal to me as a homeschooling parent, lol. I have a BS & MS. The only work I've done since the MS has not required any degree whatsoever. I have homeschooled my kiddos and I've done a little fill in work for my aunt's business for a day a week for a year or two (a decade ago) and then I've managed our vet hospital. No degrees required for any of those things. My business management stuff requires a lot of smarts, but in business and people management, not in ecology/biology where my degrees are. I never intend to use my degrees again. I've never used the MS to earn a dollar. So what? I got the undergrad for modest costs using money my parents easily provided and scholarships I'd earned. The grad degree cost me a bit beyond the stipends I earned, so I borrowed some $$. I eventually paid it back. It'd have been nice not to owe that $$ (and I will encourage my kids to avoid student loans if possible), but I have 0 regrets about going. I met dh there. I bought my first house there and actually made enough profit on it that I could have repaid all my student loans with the profit if I hadn't plowed them back into the next house we bought (which was actually a much better idea) . . . I learned a lot and had a great time. And, I met dh!! So, anyway, I have no qualms about kids getting all the education they want if they can do it debt free. And if they can be well educated, have fun, and then end up lucky enough to not have to work using the degree(s), then more power to them. I want smart kids raising my grand babies some day . . . LOL

(((Hugs))) I'm so sorry about your health scare, and I sincerely hope it turns out to be nothing but a scare. Unfortunately, IME, *any* health issue can be a problem for insurance. Definitely still try for a new policy (since you feel you need one), but don't be shocked if it is pricey or takes some effort. I recently had a good experience with "selectquote" for a new policy for dh. The cool thing is that they ask you a zillion health questions on the phone, then they put that in their computer and it spits out rates for all the various carriers they work with. They explained that some carriers have very different "up charges" for various issues, so by comparing a zillion carriers with your information, you can get the best shot at a good rate. The rate I got for dh was almost half what I was quoted by our independent local agent. The whole process takes 6-8 weeks with the nurse visit, etc. It's all free until/unless you sign on the dotted line for a particular policy. Anyway, in our recent experience, everything worked out and dh got great rates on his new LI and disability policies (select quote doesn't do disability . . . for that, we went with our local agent) . . . but, MAN, they ask a zillion questions, and that was for dh, who the visiting nurse (coincidentally same for both polices several months apart) said was in "perfect" health. No meds, no nothing, nothing but a couple running injuries and animal bites in the last decade . . . My health is a little more dodgy, and I am glad it wasn't me who needed new insurance! (We have a small LI policy on me, but we'd probably let it lapse if it wasn't so cheap . . . ) One thing that is reassuring to me about LI as we get older is that retirement for one is much cheaper than retirement for two, so in some ways, dh and the kids would be better off financially if I dropped dead. (Sad, but true.) Heck, dh could likely retire in 10 years instead of 20 if it weren't for me . . . I don't know if that's reassuring for you or not, but it is for me, lol.

Given the circumstances, perhaps you can manipulate your ex into taking the idea off the table. I'd say perhaps pretend that you believe he was joking around . . . "I know you were just trying to make light of your health situation, but that joke about you accepting a kidney from your son startled me, because I know you are a good man and you love your son and you'd never do anything to compromise his health or make him suffer. Even though I know you'd never really take a kidney from X___, even joking about it might put the thought in his mind and make him feel guilty or doubt your love for him. Please don't joke around about that again, because I don't want X___ to ever doubt that you loved him too much to let him do that. I always want him to know you loved him and put him first. You'd never do such a selfish thing, and I don't want him to ever doubt it! You know how silly kids can be; they don't understand that a parent would never take something as precious as a kidney from their own child. I know you'd never do that, and I think X___ knows it too, but I don't want any doubt to creep into his mind." You'd know your ex best to figure out how to phrase things, but perhaps you can use the "joke" incident to your favor by getting your ex to disavow ever even considering such a terrible idea. . . . Personally, in this situation, I see no problem with manipulating those involved. Just my opinion.

Absolutely not. I wouldn't take an organ from my child, and I know dh would not either. No way, no how. Unless it is something that can grow back, then you shouldn't take it from your child! No!! If you are cordial with your ex, then I'd bring it up privately and ask him not to joke like that any more . . . and if he indicates that he would ever consider truly taking an organ from your son, then I'd ask him to go into joint counseling with just you and him and a counselor to discuss it for a session or two, and if that doesn't totally break his interest/willingness to consider taking a kidney from your child, then I'd work privately with a counselor to come up with a plan on how to deal with the topic . . . What a nightmare. For sure, I think it is absolutely wrong for a parent to accept an organ from a child. Parents give life, they do not take it . . . If my spouse (or an ex-spouse if I had one) would entertain such a thought (seriously, not just in a poor joke), then I'd really have a hard time with it. I'd likely do whatever I could to distance my child from the ex-spouse, and if it were my living spouse, I'd just yell and cry and go to counseling together until I talked sense into him. I really can't fathom surgeons allowing a young person to make that kind of donation to a parent. For sure, I can't fathom it before age 25 or older. Age 18-ish is still WAY too dependent on their parents to be able to make a choice truly free of undue influence or even coercion. Oh, and I'd also take a moment to go over with your son the financial fall out if/when his dad dies. Be sure he knows he will still go to college, will inherit x/y/z, or whatever you know that could reassure him . . . other than of course, your own personal devotion and support (which may be enough).

Well, running water is a luxury in many places. Education is a luxury in many places. Owning a home is a luxury in many places. Owning your own transportation is a luxury in most places, too. Heck, food is a luxury in many places. Every family/home/community/culture has different definitions of necessities, basics, and luxuries. In my family, within the culture I live in, a 4yr degree is not a luxury. In my family it is a basic. Not maybe a necessity (as in food, shelter, healthcare) but definitely a basic (like a safe and reliable vehicle, internet access, a private bedroom in a safe home, tasty as well as nutritious food). In *my* family culture, luxuries include expensive vacations, organic foods, expensive wines, jewelry beyond a wedding ring, fancy name brand clothes, Ivy league degrees, high end or new cars . . . To me, those things are luxuries, but a 4yr degree from a reputable institution is a basic, not a luxury. TO ME. *I* feel an obligation to help my children (so long as they are willing and able) to achieve a lifestyle similar to the one my own parents helped me achieve and my husband's parents helped him achieve. My kids can certainly make choices as adults that differ from ours (dh and I certainly did make some choices very different from our own parents), but until they are ready and able to take adult responsibility for their lives and their choices, I will help them be on track to have the same opportunities that dh and I have had. And, to do that, a 4 year degree at the very least is required. I don't think a 4 year degree is a necessity for every person, and I don't think you are a bad parent if you don't encourage/expect/support your kid in that goal, but, for me, I absolutely think a 4 year degree is a basic element of preparing for life (assuming it is feasible for the student).

Exactly. Thank you for expressing so articulately the points I try to make so awkwardly, lol.

:hurray: :hurray: :hurray: Yes, yes, yes. The paperwhite is the perfect reading device. Love, love, love. I have an iPad, an iPhone, many computers, thousands of books . . . my favorite thing to read on is the paperwhite. So easy on the eyes, light, easy to hold, long long battery life, etc.

Huh, well, I don't really think knowledge = degree. I mean, we are on a homeschooling board, lol. I definitely agree that knowledge and learning and intellect can/should be pursued outside of an institution. I think that a 4 year degree provides fundamental 2 things: 1) a basic learning/knowledge/experience beyond what I can provide in homeschooling. I see that experience as a foundation of education for a learned person and that learning should allow the child to better self-educate for the rest of his/her life. Creek land explains this better than I could, so I'll just refer to her posts that I agree with . . . For my family, I see a 4 year degree as the final leg of a *basic* education -- providing a foundation for the rest of the person's life. 2) a starting point for many careers. The careers I aspire to for my kids are mostly those which require advanced degrees, so having a 4 year degree is a fundamental starting point. If they end up choosing a career that didn't require the 4 year degree, that degree still serves the purpose #1 above and also provides an insurance policy for the kid if they change their career goals later in life. I won't argue about how our educational and economic systems are structured. It is what it is, and I have plenty of complaints, lol. Education here is also very expensive, and so is life (kids, health care, child care, mortgage, etc). In *our* country, it is expensive to have kids and expensive to get educated. We don't have the free child care, free higher education, free health care, etc, that is available in some countries. If we *did* have a stronger support system for families, I'd feel much less pressured to make sure my kids are fully educated and fully self-supporting *before* they have kids. But, in our country, having a family while also pursing a lengthy education most likely means a lot of sacrifice and a lot of debt. Since I have the ability to help help my kids avoid that struggle, that's what I prefer to do. Since life here in the US requires money, I'd like to make sure my kids have money before they have a lot of life responsibilities . . . thus, I'd like them to have a solid education before life interrupts and they suddenly have a spouse/kids/etc. And, I don't particularly want money to stop them from having kids, either, so another vote for getting that basic education done ASAP. I don't think spending from age 18-22 in college should negatively impact one's ability to pursue all sorts of learning in the future in any contexts desired. I require my kids to learn a language, learn an instrument, learn to cook and clean and do laundry and fix things, learn to drive, complete Calculus in high school, and I also expect them to get a 4 year college degree and to make themselves capable of supporting themselves and any children they produce. Those are just some of the basics I expect in *my* family. What my adult children chose to do will ultimately be up to them, but I will provide assistance/help/support towards meeting my expectations should they choose to embrace them.

LOL, I predict that your neighborhood home values are skyrocketing. :) My mom and dad bought a home for 50k in 1971. A couple years later, an agent came through as in your case, asking Mom if she wanted to sell. Mom was startled and said, "well, for 100k!" which she was saying in a way that meant like "sure, I'll sell you my minivan for a million dollars!" They didn't list or sell at that time, but it was worth 100k within a year or two, and 200k in a couple years after that, and over 400k in 1987 when she sold it . . . So, anyway, based on my very limited experience, I predict that agents are looking for houses to list/buy in your area when the market is very tight and thus values are rising rapidly. :)

Yes, yes, yes!! On all counts.

Yes, I agree that it often a luxury item if it is being paid for . . . But, if a student earns scholarships to make it free and/or the parents can easily afford the luxury item, then, to me, it becomes a basic/staple.

I don't have any expectations at all for *other* people or *other* families. I have expectations for my *own* kids, my own family. I thought that was the question -- expectations for your own kids. I must have missed some earlier thread that this spun off that maybe implied something else. As I indicated, my kids have parents with advanced degrees (MS+DVM, MS)and 2/4 grandparents also had advanced degrees (MBA, JD) and the other 2 had 4 yr degrees and professional careers (satellite engineer with undergrad from MIT, RN). My kids have IQs in the "genius" range. They also test well enough to get free tuition at various schools and we live in a college town where they could most likely attend and *make a profit* if they lived at home while doing so. And they have parents who have committed to paying for them through a reasonable 4 yr degree with no debt and little suffering (modest working during summers, school year just devoted to studies) . . . So, for *my* lucky kids, I think a 4 year degree is a reasonable baseline minimal expectation. Frankly, I hope and expect they all get advanced degrees, but I won't press that if one/all of them don't chose to do so. I think a 4 year degree is a nice insurance policy. If the money is not a problem (which it is not in my family) and there isn't some other pressing need to do something else those 4 years (say an elite dancer who doesn't want to lose those 4 critical years), then I think getting a 4 year degree is a nice level of "basic" education in my small family/world. It's what I consider a basic level of academic competency to make life more interesting (open intellectual doors, explore the world a bit, etc) and provides a foundation for later study if someone's career goals change. If you have a 4 year degree and later decide, "Oh, I would like to be a lawyer", it's pretty easy to apply. (My mom did that. 4 year degree from Purdue in *home economics* and Masters from an Ivy league in college administration . . . 10-12 years later, mom of 2 littles, she decides to be a lawyer . . . and applies and gets in on her first try . . . And had a great career) I've known lots of people who changed career directions after 5+ years and it's been *much* easier for those who already had at least a 4 year degree than those who did not. If one has a 4 year degree in math, but later decide they want to be a nurse, they have the option of looking at "fast track" programs that are just 18-24 months and you can be a RN with a bachelor's of nursing. If you had a background in say, being an electrician (great option), you'd have to start from scratch and it'd take a lot longer (and more $$) to get that RN. Having that baseline 4 year degree seems like a good insurance policy towards a stable future with options. Re-schooling when you "have a life" with spouse/kids/mortgage is really a financial challenge, and I'd like my kids to "launch' with as strong a foundation as possible, so that if/when life throws them curveballs, they are best prepared to respond/adapt/etc. If my kid wanted to be an electrician, I'd encourage him/her to get a 4 year degree in some relevant field (say business or electrical engineering or maybe some field I don't know of) and to work for an electrician during summers, etc, to begin learning the field and strategizing their future. Then, when s/he got their degree, they'd be more than ready to carry on in the field. I'd also encourage them to go to school free/cheap and save some of the "bank of mom and dad money" to be seed money for a future business plan . . . And, FWIW, my dream life was always to homestead somewhere in the middle of the woods (Alaska) or to be an old fashioned farmer. I love working with my hands, love the earth, etc, and so does dh. He fixes our tools, we garden, etc. He replaced the blades on the riding mower yesterday, and I power washed the driveway . . . When we retire in 19 years, if we're still strong enough, we'd love to buy more land and less house. We have chickens and a goat on our 2 acres . . . I'd love to learn to wood work . . . and we do loads of our own electrical/plumbing/etc. Totally cool with that. Total respect. I don't believe that a 4 year degree precludes any of those options. I have lots of schooling and I don't do any paid job that required it. . . Doesn't mean it was wasted . . .

In recent years, two big (i.e., a week to a month, out of the country or at least a few states away) ones (one just with dh, one with the whole family) and approximately two or so more long-weekend-ish trips with some combination of dh and/or the kids. We work hard, and we play hard.

I prefer leather. Easier to clean and to keep dog-hair free. But, I don't prefer it $5000 worth of other things I like, so I generally go with cloth seats (assuming there is a big price difference, which there generally has been when we've bought new vehicles).

For one, I think your mom needs to buy presents for everyone, whether or not they are showing up for the actual holiday. It seems petty and mean to "return presents" if your child and grands aren't happening to show up on the exact day. You can exchange gifts at a later date, or mail them, or drop ship them from Amazon. Lots of options! I'd encourage your mom to just spend the extra money & trouble to buy gifts for all the people her daughter wishes her to (and restricted to whatever she can afford . . . If needed, split the original budget into smaller amounts among all the new people.) I'm sure your mom knows she can ask for "wish lists" from her dd for all her new family members. So, anyway, I'd speak up to your mom about this particular issue, hoping she's amenable to changing her practices around gifts. And, if she's not, then I'd have a lot less sympathy for her than I would otherwise. For the other, I think your sister and mom are being difficult and need to learn to deal with each other. Seems to me like you're getting dragged into the middle, and if you can extricate yourself, I think that'd be good for everyone involved. Unless you feel like one (say, your mom if she's declining or fragile in some way) is being harmed by the other, then I'd really try to keep out of it other than to encourage them to talk to and be kind to each other and maybe seek counseling . . . Sounds to me like they're both good women and love each other but they've got baggage and issues that's getting in the way. I hope it all works out.

I have always expected all my kids to go to college and also professional or grad school after a 4 year degree. None have LDs or any other intellectual handicaps, are all high IQ, and both their parents have advanced degrees and all their grandparents had at least 4 year degrees (two of them had advanced degrees as well). So, I don't think that for my kids, those are unusual expectations, especially given that they also have parents (us) who are willing and able to support them through at least 4 year degrees. If any of my kids had special needs or disabilities that made academic achievement unrealistic, then obviously, I'd adjust my expectations. So far, my expectations still seem realistic for all my kids. I can't control their adult behaviors, so certainly I allow for the possibility that they won't all achieve what I expect, but I certainly hope so. One thing that has evolved for me is that I very much expect them to use college (+/- grad school) as a prequel to a reliable, reasonably well paid career. Unfortunately, college has become *so* expensive that I don't think the expectation I grew up with (go to college, period . . . what you major in is totally up to you . . . follow your bliss . . .) is realistic these days unless you (parents) can afford to pay AGAIN for some professional re-education after they graduate and find they can't get a decent job/career with whatever blissful 4 year degree they started with. I don't want to be supporting my 25+year olds through an entire second education, so I expect them to use their college time to work towards a career.

I have a 48x48" square dining room table that has FOUR 12" leaves, so expands to 4x8 feet. We keep it at 4x6 for daily use, and expand as needed. The trick to finding a really big table is to look for old tables. This one is maybe 100 years old. They used to make tables bigger. So many modern tables are tiny!

FWIW, I think that that landlady admitted to (illegally) discriminating against you because of your "family status" . . .

FWIW, when I got rid of the last square footage of carpeting in my house . . . I was able to reduce my asthma meds from 2x/day to 1x/day and instead of needing my "puffer" several times a month to even multiple times per week . . . I've needed it exactly twice in the last year . . . So, anyway, yes, I'd get away from that carpeting ASAP . . . since you didn't get house #2, just keeping looking. And, peel up the corners of the hideous carpet in your current house and see if there's wood under there. If there is, then beg/plead with your landlord to allow you to, on your own effort and dime, rip out and dispose of the carpeting and just mop the old floor with Murphy's Oil Soap. Even offer the landlord say a $500 payment towards re-carpeting with new carpet when you move out -- but it is refunded to you if you stay in the rental at least 2 more years. Oh, landlords like guarantees . . . Offer to sign on for 2 more years in a lease if he allows you to get rid of the carpet. (Or, if there is no wood under the carpet, if he will replace the carpet with any solid flooring.)

I would make decisions on a case by case basis, with dh of course. My limits/expectations that I listed in my earlier post are pretty forgiving, and my "cutting off" support would not include tuition/housing/meal plan/books/health care . . . so it would be entirely possible (and reasonable feasible) for a child of mine to continue in school even if I cut off the gravy train . . . they'd just have to work hard all summer and have a PT job during the year +/- take modest student loans. I'm generally a softie, but I'm learning to be firmer with my middle child, who craves limits, lol. I have no actual idea what I'd do, but I have a general plan and general expectations . . . and I'll keep winging this parenting thing, one decision at a time, lol.

I won't police things. If I know about them, I'll deal with them. If my kid "does these things" and hides them, then that's the way it rolls. If I catch wind of it, I'll stop the money train. I made *plenty* of bad choices in college, and my folks never knew about them, and that was all for the best. I don't need to know everything, lol. I can't say this will "work for me" since I am only 1 year into the adult-kid thing, but I think it's the best I can come up with at the moment. My goal is to influence my kids' decisions for the best, not to actually control their destinies. If they make bad choices, they'll live with them, and so will I. By communicating my expectations and limits, then hopefully that'll do *something* positive to influence their choices. I know for a fact this has worked to some degree with ds . . . Last summer, he was in Aspen CO for a month for a (prestigious, classical) music festival. Since most of the participants are college age or older, and since marijauna is legal in CO, I communicated to ds clearly that he wasn't allowed to use it whatsoever, and that I'd be drug testing him when he got home . . . He actually called me late at night on his final "fun" weekend there . . . and after an hour or so . . . he 'fessed up (in his rambling teen way) that he was calling to get support to avoid making bad choices that night . . . His girlfriend (back home) had just dumped him, and "all" his friends were out partying . . . and "Of my 30 friends, 5 of them don't use pot or drink . .. AND IT'S THEIR CHOICE . .. I'm the only one who doesn't do it because my mom won't allow it. It's not fair!" I counted that as a "Mom wins" moment, and I reaffirmed his good choices, distracted him from the dangerous options at his doorstep . . . and he came home a few days later and tested clean. He's a good kid, but he has no moral qualms about pot (actually, I don't have much moral qualms about pot either, but I just think it's a very bad idea for children/teens and could cause him legal problems that I don't believe are at all worth the risk) . . . So, anyway, one decision at a time is how we grow up. My threats of "hell raining down on you if you test positive when you come home" worked that time . . . and that's one good decision that I influenced. Yay, me. To the best of my knowledge (and repeated drug tests), ds has not (ever) used illegal drugs despite having plenty of "opportunities" . . . I call that a win. If I can continue to use some influence to help strengthen his not-yet-grown-up mind and nudge him towards good decisions, then that's what I'll do. I don't aspire to 100% control my kids destinies or 100% protect them from bad choices, but I do hope to help in some modest way. My parents never had firm rules about my adult behavior, but I knew their expectations, and I respected them and was certainly positively influenced by their expectations combined with their generous support and love. I knew they had my best interests at heart. In any event, when my kids become adults, I no longer "own" their choices and I don't have the right to know their personal decisions. If they manage to do a little drugs or smoke a bit of tobacco or get a few tattoos . . . without me noticing . . . then that's on them, and I'm 100% great with not feeling the need to limit my financial support and not knowing about their negative choices. I'm cool to live in my happy little fantasy land, lol. If they get arrested, end up in the ER with an overdose, flunk a semester, show up with half their skin covered in tattoos, or can't manage to visit for Christmas without vaping . . . then, well, they'll have to deal with more limited financial support . . . and I'll redirect their "blow money" allowance towards "me money" to soothe my hurting mommy-heart. ;) To me, it's not *at all* about catching or punishing my adult children. It's more about using what influence I have for the good (in a limited way, focused only on core issues) and also avoiding enabling them to make bad choices if I can. Life's a crapshoot, and I'm well aware that there are risks to any approach . . . This one seems to be a decent balance to me.

I think this is very personal . . . For our kids, I've set some expectations . . . To get (any) money for college (essentially any $ from me after they turn 18), they have to be doing productive work towards a degree . . . Also, to get more than just tuition/books/housing/healthcare . . . they also need to be living in a way that I don't feel will harm them . . . essentially, no abusing drugs or alcohol, no tobacco/nicotine use, and not "covering their body" with large tattoos/piercings . . . and generally pursing a life that is healthy and not harmful . . . I recognize that I can't control an adult child's choice to use drugs or get full body tattoos, but I also feel that I have a moral responsibility not to make those choices financially easy by essentially subsidizing their spending . . . And, besides, it's my money, and I can use it how I want to, and I don't choose to use it that way . . . I would still pay their tuition/housing/books/health expenses so long as they were working hard, generally responsible, and progressing towards a reasonable degree. But, I'd limit my "extra" support and thus force them to work to pay for their living expenses, hopefully thereby making their "bad choices" expensive enough for them to reconsider. Our eldest is easy on those counts, so we're happily fully supporting her through college . . . DS#2 has had some problems with "vaping" (nicotine containing electronic cigarettes" which is an area that I "draw a line" around and do all I can to stop . . . and I've let him know that if he chooses to do that once he's an "adult" that he won't be getting "living expense" money from us . . . as I don't want the economic disincentives to use nicotine (i.e., buying the materials, paying the taxes, etc.) to be nullified by MY monetary support. So, if he chooses to vape (or abuse other alcohol or drugs), then we will limit our monetary support to tuition/housing/books . . . and he'll have to work or borrow to pay for entertainment, clothes, food (unless he is on a university meal plan) . . . because I won't give him any cash or cash-equivalents if he's spending *any* money on that sort of thing. I also would not financially support an adult child who was pursing an education or career in a field that I feel is morally unacceptable. (Say, wants to design weapons, work in mineral extraction, become a tobacco farmer . . .) Fortunately, none of my kids seem interested in pursing a field that is not morally acceptable to me, but I have put that on the table for many years, and I'd think that'd be fair for other families if they had their own set of moral limits on what was ethical to do with your life. Oh, I've also said that no kid of mine will borrow money for undergrad. They can get more than enough from us to get a 4 year degree (much more than they could borrow), and we know enough about student loans not to want our kids to take them for undergrad. And *we parents* won't borrow either . . . I could imagine making an exception to this rule if my child was *not* taking funds from us for living expenses/etc (i.e., continued vaping) and the child wanted to borrow the small federal loans that are available. But, if the kid was taking additional "private" loans (essentially anything more than 5-6k/yr), then *all* money from Mom and Dad will cease. That's just a terrible decision, and I won't support it. I do think it is *really* important to communicate the limits of your support early and often to your kids. That's what we've done. It's worked so far. FWIW, many schools require students to complete the FAFSA (with parental information) to get *any* scholarship money. The rationale for this, I think, is that some federal funds (Pell grants, etc.) can be used first, THEN they use the school's funds for merit aid . . . Not all schools require the FAFSA for merit money (Univ of Alabama doesn't), but plenty do. I would be willing to complete a FAFSA for any child of mine, even if I disagreed with what they were doing in school or in life. I think it's just basic decency to assist your child in their need to get parental information in order to access educational opportunities.

Honestly, I don't think anything could have been done to prevent this from the family/people on the beach side of things. Perhaps Disney could change signage (seems smart to have lots of signs warning about dangerous alligators since, yes, lots of people visit there who'd have no idea), but from the beach-go'ers perspective, I can't see what could have been done differently. Or perhaps Disney could do more to patrol for large alligators and relocate them and/or maybe even put up fencing in the water along the beaches where families play . . . (That might be the only thing they could do to make the beaches alligator-safe . . . That's what I've seen in a swimming hole we've frequented in FL in a spring fed river where there are loads of alligators . .. There is a fence/netting in the water and there are park staff that keep aware of large alligators . .. For over a decade, I spent a month in FL with my kids each fall. We routinely went paddling on a river (same river I mention above) that has loads of alligators (and manatees and birds and all sorts of pretty stuff). We (and zillions of other people) paddled and *swam* in that river, even though we knew alligators lived there and we *saw* alligators there on every trip. We'd stay out of the water if/when we saw a alligator in that particular area, but surely they are there all the time. When we saw a big one, I'd make sure my kids were securely seated on their paddle board or in their kayak (and not in the water) and we'd steer clear . . . But, every paddle trip, we'd see all sorts of people swimming, kids playing on rope swings, etc, and my kids would do it too (along with us grown ups). I certainly wouldn't have thought I was taking a significant alligator risk by wading ankle deep in water unless I saw specific warning signs or saw large gators in the area . . . And my own FIL assisted a man on a golf course 8 or so years ago whose arm was bitten off by a large alligator when the man was reaching into the edge of a pond on the golf course to retrieve a golf ball . . . So, I am well aware that alligators are dangerous. Like wolf attacks or bear attacks or any other large predator attacks, these things can happen when we are in the animals' territories . . . It is a terrible tragedy.

If they won't keep a log or follow another of your good suggestions, I'd tell them to stuff it. When/if *one* of the teens is willing to follow one of your good suggestions, then I think it'd be fine to use the mom-card to enforce compliance by the *other* teen, but if neither will do something so reasonable, then it's both their problems. Set some firm consequence for bothering you with it, or just ignore it, but in any event, don't let them make it your problem!