I'm not sure how to describe this phenomenon, but I'll try. I have two daughters (and a baby on a way :)), almost-12 and almost-13. They were quite different already as toddlers, temper-wise, but still a lot more similar then they're now. Then at some point they just... polarized. One of them went in "dad"'s direction, another one in "mom"'s direction. :confused: My older daughter is "my" kid. She has exact same tastes in food as me (and feels repulsed by the same food), a very similar line of reasoning, is interested in vaguely the same fields (very languages- and humanities-oriented girl), and is also more of a hot-tempered (like I was in my youth), true Italian girl. :lol: And even when it comes to the bad stuff... Even though they both were raised together and in the same manner, it was never my younger daughter who stopped eating, but always my older one, exactly like a mirror of my own younger self (I had smaller phases of, conscious or not, anorexia in the 10-20 decade of my life, and am horrified to see the same in her). Also, the temper issue she used to have - and which her sister NEVER had, except in the terrible two phase (and even then she was calmer than her sister) - are typical "my" problems, not my husband's. My younger daughter is "dad"'s kid. Food tastes approximately match dh's food tastes, they're both very logical, linear thinkers, they "click" in the same fields (maths and sciences for them), and are both of a calmer, more peaceful temper ("think before you say, think before you act"). Likewise, the "ability" to remain indifferent and disassociate themselves emotionally from some things seems to be innate in both of them, but not in my older daughter and for me, it was a learned skill. Or the natural inclining to "order" in things - it's something I feel like I learned (my older one hasn't yet :D), but I see in my younger daughter the same natural easiness with it that long ago I noticed in dh. I know that it's normal that at times you see yourself in your kid, at times your spouse, but does anyone else have a situation in which one child is remarkably "yours" and another child remarkably "your spouse"'s? There are also educational issues which might arise from that. When do you know you're really teaching the kid to their interests and abilities, and when do you teach them to what you think and automatically assume their interests and abilities will be, and thus somehow form them even if they technically might not have been there? More subconsciously than actively, but I guess that I expect my younger one to be and react like dad, and my older one like me, and I'm really wondering lately, how much is the fact they "polarized" a natural thing, and how much we influenced it by "reading into" what may not have been the initial signs of that when they were kids? I know, it's late and I'm probably typing a bunch of confusing things, but if anyone has a similar experience, I'd like to hear it - just something I've been thinking about a lot lately, wondering what the next one might be like. :bigear:

Absolutely, there are people who acquire very good accents in foreign languages. :) It's not even the question of being bad - Russian-accented Hebrew is also "bad", but for different reasons which concern different phonology - it's just that for my ears, American-accented Hebrew will be instinctively more "irritable" (in lack of better expression; don't get me wrong, it's not intended as an insult for those who learn) than the Russian-accented one, and I noticed that tendency in other languages too. Like I said, for me it's just a combination of R and unclear vowels, most of the time. If an American speaker successfully removes that, even if by doing so he adopts the Russian R or softens some words where he shouldn't (like "Russian Hebrew": anyi instead of ani and similar), his Hebrew won't be nearly as "irritable" for my ears. But I still think it's purely subjective, depending on your language, so Italian accents never "irritate" me and I'm Italian. I can hear Italian-accented English with no problems, Italian-accented Hebrew, Italian-accented French... Still sounds good to me. :D

My husband miserably failed when trying to switch from Italian to Hebrew when they were some 7-8 years old. It wasn't their first Hebrew, but he got all hooked into the idea of speaking only Hebrew to them, I let him go, but *they* didn't. They were disturbed by the change of language, it felt "wrong" for them and they just wouldn't cooperate. The weirdest thing though is that we both have been slowly introducing English since they were 3-4 (when we came to the US) and they took it very easily, weren't disturbed by it as long as it was clear that the situations are different (I literally spoke English to them ONLY in school setting, and their dad ONLY outside or on the balcony, they needed the feeling of a "different situation" for English and Italian, different place) and that the dominant emotions language was Italian. With the years of course English got into them so much that those "rules" are very flexible now (we have to insist on Italian now, for example) and the languages can be used in all situations interchangeably. But with Hebrew, it just didn't go. They were totally okay with having Israeli relatives who spoke to them in Hebrew, and who ALSO at some point made the switch (when they were toddlers, everybody spoke only Italian to them, even if Hebrew was spoken around them), but they just wouldn't allow their dad to do it. The whole experiment lasted for a few weeks, after which he just got peaceful with the fact they would allow Hebrew to be used "situationally", with other people and at most for in the context of shabat, but not as an everyday language. The older kid however now got into the Hebrew mode totally and I hear her speaking sometimes Hebrew to dh. I asked him if he intends to totally switch to Hebrew or if it's only when she asks for practice or help with some school material in Hebrew, and he said he's going to follow her, if she shows a desire to fully switch to Hebrew when they're speaking one on one, that he'll do it, if not, that he won't force anything and will speak Hebrew to her only when she starts in Hebrew. Currently it's still a situational language for her. But I digress, the advice I wanted to give you is to be very, very aware of a simple rule: young children don't differentiate languages, they differentiate sitations (differentiating language by people is basically only a variant of the situation). You have to make a different situation for Arabic - speak it in a different room, speak it with/to some toys which are only Arabic toys (we had those to learn both English and Hebrew, different ones of course :D), and whenever you expose them to Arabic materials (films, books, etc), do it within that situation (not with dad speaking to you in English while they watch). With the oldest one it might not be that needed (he differentiates languages already), but it's still a very good method with young kids. And when in that situation, just swith to Arabic, no English. Simple Arabic at first, and then increase complexity.

My daughters cope with five languages perfectly. One more would be "that one" which would ruin the balance, in my opinion, so I saved any extra languages for later stages of education, especially since I'm all for "less but thoroughly" approach when it comes to languages. We're native Italian speakers, the girls were born in Italy, and naturally their first language was Italian, with some snippets of Hebrew around, though not directly spoken to them (we're actually Italian Jews, lots of family members and friends in/from Israel, so somehow the language was always the air, and my husband and I used to occasionally speak in Hebrew too). Then we moved to the US, they were 3 and 4 years old, young enough to develop native proficiency in the new language, and they became bilingual in Italian and English very soon. Their education was bilingual from the start, and Hebrew was treated as a sort of "home background" language for "special occasions", something which was technically foreign, but yet not really foreign. Over the course of the years we have been increasing the importance of Hebrew, especially after the kids have traveled to Israel a few times (about that time we started to encourage family and friends who could to switch to Hebrew with them, which stayed till today), and nowadays the older of our daughters is studying it basically on a native level too (meaning, from the materials aimed at native Israelis), while the younger one studies it as an advanced foreign language. They both speak all three languages wonderfully, perfect accents, in the spirit of each language, the only difference in their Hebrew is that the older one knows more "high Hebrew" and is exposed more to the literary language, while the younger one relies on colloquial, everyday spoken Hebrew and she usually doesn't use it in her schooling. Bilingual education and spending lots of time in Italy did wonders for their balanced bilingualism. I honestly can't think of any better way to become bilingual than to master both the academic and the colloquial component of the language. Of course, not everyone is in the situation where it's possible to lead such a lifestyle in which proficiency in three languages at least two of which are fully fluent should come "naturally" as a result of travel and family connections, I'm just saying what worked for us. Basically, immersion + schoolwork. Interestingly though, my older daughter completely cut the English part off her studies of other subjects (I allowed her, under the condition she continue with the language arts / reading in English), and is slowly shifting her schoolwork towards Italian-Hebrew bilingual work (she uses Israeli textbooks a lot even for subject she studies in Italian), while the younger one is on English-Italian road and studies Hebrew only as a foreign language, yet, they both actually speak all three languages. With the classics, we had an early start, but gradual and constant increase of the load. I aim high for the classics, it's important for us, and they know it, so they just got peaceful with Latin and Greek being a normal part of the curriculum, just as Maths. Right now I'm pretty satisfied with their levels, they should be fluent readers already in high school. So for me, native fluency in native languages, a solid knowledge of a modern foreign language and a reading knowledge of the classics is just enough. I think we would have lost the focus if I had added French, German or Arabic, which I had in mind earlier. I do intend to have them learn basic Arabic (approximately what the Israeli kids go through in their schools, nothing huge) and intermediate French, at least (it would be a shame not to use the privilege of knowing Italian to get under your belt another Romance language which also happens to be a major world language with so much diplomatic importance and texts in it), but it can really wait for a while and they're good with languages so it won't be an issue. I wish there could be more languages, but at some point you have to decide if you're more into quantity or into quality. I believe it's the best to determine your focus and then take it from there. In any case, I recommend you take one language to fluency and then adjust the rest to the child and his or her specific interests and talents, but always know that the focus is put in language X which will be taken to advanced and literature level.

With the years I got used to it and acquired it myself, but during my schooling, I wasn't crazy about the American accents. Now I view them as something "regular", but from what I see, the younger generation is the same, they're so USED to it, since they grow up with the media, that it smells more of familiarity than exotic beauty. What I honestly dislike though are American accents in foreign languages. I know it's purely personal, but hearing Italian or Hebrew spoken with an American accent makes me think of nails on a blackboard, I just can't help it - the American R and unclear vowels (vowels are important for Italian) just ruin everything. Maybe it's just me being extra sensitive on the languages I grew up with, though, but interestingly, my daughters feel the same (raised in US/Italy) - they say that American-accented Italian is far worse for their ears than Italian-accented English. My husband, Italian/Israeli, is a pragmatic, he considers everything good as long as it's understandable and he doesn't understand the aesthetic component "we women" give to the accents :D

My older daughter had that instinct repulsion from everything dairy since she was a baby - milk, cheese, yogurts, whipped cream, anything. In that aspect, she's a lot similar to me, since I have the same kind of repulsion. Neither of us are allergic (both tested), at least not officially, but it is a sort of oversensitivity and we both avoid dairy. Which is totally weird, since dh and the younger daughter are firm dairy eaters (not crazy about it, but they eat it more or less regularly). But just like my older kid, I knew early in my life too that something was just "wrong" with the "white stuff", so when I noticed the same kind of repulsion with my daughter, I recognized it.

Peanut butter to a baby or a toddler? Even if it wasn't for the possibility of an allergic reaction, I wouldn't have allowed that type of food at that age (just like I wouldn't allow refined sugars or meat products, I tend to put it all in the same category of "avoid if you can, at least when they're young"). We started allowing it when they were 5-6 I think (a little after we introduced chocolate :D), the next baby is getting the same treatment.

I was in that situation some thirteen years ago. :D It took me a really long time to realize it's not only "theoretically" possible, but that it actually happens. The girls are less than a full year apart. :) In any case, :grouphug:.

We travel. Most of the summer, about two full months, they're in Italy either with my, either with my husband's family, either involved with kids' activities there. It's a time to grow in some other aspects of life: learning practical skills, being in touch with their family and friends whom they can't see so much during the school year, changing a climate and a culture, catch up with Italian slang (:D), and learn a lots informally by visiting new places. Other than that, we also travel a lot together. They certainly spend some time in Israel every year as well as in Italy, we travel as a family to other places, and last winter I had them sent on skiing / winter camp with a group of their friends in Austria and I plan to increase such activities. I think it's very good for them to be independent, away from us a little, travel, meet new people and learn informally. It helps "mental health" a LOT, and they're always refreshed after it, so I like to break our school year with small breaks, and take a big time off in summer.

I have an excellent memory. No idea why, but I simply REMEMBER most of things I studied in life, especially content which interested me. I suppose one of the reasons is that I received a really good education and I retained a LOT of what we studied, and the other one that in my life after school I somehow stayed in contact with most of the fields, even as an amateur, via friends, my husband, etc., so I somehow never completely stepped out of math or science thinking patterns, even though I professionally got into humanities/language. I find it really easy to remember, broaden or deepen what I know, or at least get by until I catch it up again. So it hasn't really been an issue, regarding basic middle/high school stuff. The problems have arised with the younger one being very, very interested in maths and sciences, as well as gifted, who stepped out of that frame, and her I can't follow any longer there. I go with her through the basics, for her extra interests she gets a tutor or a dad whom she's nagging to take her to lab with him (DH is a scientist) :D The older one seems to think out of middle/high school frame in the fields that are "my" fields, so it hasn't been an issue with her so far, since even when she steps out, I can follow it if it's in Italian or classics or philosophy, for example.

My younger daughter is highly gifted in the areas of Maths and Sciences and at some point I could not follow her any longer, because even though I'm fairly well-equipped regarding middle/high school material, she stepped out of that and seems to be thinking in some parameters which I just can't "catch". Without any guilt, I arranged private lessons for her with people who can and will keep her challenged. I still go with her through the "basic" sciences/maths for her formal exams, or at least oversee that, but I don't intend to study college-level Biochemistry with her or any of the other fancy stuff she does. Still, I'm not ready for the child to be the victim of my lack of abilities or knowledge in some fields and in order for her to pursue those talents and interests, some other people have to be engaged and I think that's perfectly okay. Granted, that's not experience with not being able to follow your child with regards to "basic" curriculum - I can do that for both - but I still wanted to share. If I discovered I couldn't teach some "basic" subject too, I would do the same, i.e. have her guided, monitored and graded by somebody else in the subject. :) By the way I don't think it's a "bad" thing that our kids surpass us. Be proud. What kind of a student is the one who doesn't surpass his master? It's a normal process. :grouphug:

Neither of us was bullied or a bully. Of course, we had our fair share of typical childhood arguments and fights (not necessarily physical) over stupid stuff with other kids, and we certainly weren't born with social skills so it took a while for everything to settle in and to learn how to solve the problems, however, I wouldn't classify any part of that process as "bullying". I actually had far worse experiences with professors than with other kids with regards to mental and psychological abuse (lots of that going on, especially in high brow schools), though those were, thank God, exceptions.

We have at least 3-4 servings of meat a week, and we love good meat, though we're more of a fish people (all kinds of fish in all kinds of combinations... we're Mediterranean people after all). We don't eat pork at home though, probably the only food taboo we follow more or less; we don't eat meat by-products and processed meat products are absolutely forbidden (in and outside of home). Still, I can't picture us as vegetarians, and I'm full of understanding for people who love meat. :)

That doesn't look like a self-study book, it looks like a dictionary centered around topics. I see no reason why would anyone choose such a dictionary over a "proper" dictionary, especially from what I skimmed on the sample chapter, i.e. given the lack of alphabetical order and verbs being listed in infinitives first and then in shoresh - makes it more difficult to go through, lacks order. It seems to be one of a bunch of "accessories" in studying a language you can find around, but not a particularly high quality one. I still stick to my opinion that all you need is a proper dictionary, a proper grammar book and a good course, and no fancy dictionaries by topic, phrasebooks and alike, which are usually just a waste of money. Only my two cents though.

No, I don't allow it. We don't have electronics in the bedroom either.

For you, Progetto italiano (1, 2, 3) is quite good and foreigners I've been teaching generally reacted well on that, but it's aimed at older teens and adult learners. You can also get workbooks and tapes, and you should need a dictionary too (which can basically be any, at the beginning stage of learning; for later, and if you intend to learn the language till fluency, I recommend exclusively monolingual Zingarelli or De Mauro and also for later, Dardano/Trifone grammar is pretty "basic", yet well-written). The only disadvantage of that is that if you aren't very dedicated and independent, and if you need to be spoonfed everything, it'll be very hard (because the course was designed to be used with a teacher and it's all in Italian, though you can perfectly follow it on your own too, helping yourself with a dictionary). Try to avoid RS, MT, TY, basically avoid all English-based courses (I'm a native speaker with a degree in Italian, I know what I'm saying :p), Colloquial is a bit better than the rest though. From the little I saw, I decided I would never ever use them when teaching/tutoring somebody Italian - granted, I'm subjective, but for the price they require they offer close to nothing. Progetto is maybe kind of "dense", but it offers a lot. For the kids, I don't know, never taught kids as second language, only as first. They're too young for what I suggested to you, but I can see what's available.

The older one in second grade, the younger one that same year in the first grade. I always thought second grade was appropriate, I was taught them in the second grade as well.

There's some truth to this. Before about 3rd grade, what I did with my daughters was mostly, to say so, "cultural literacy" - proverbs, easier parts of texts, getting accustomed to the language and getting the basic grammar and cultural features down. I DID teach them grammar even before we started formally K, but I constantly had to have their age in mind and realize that they wouldn't be ready for subjunctives of the pluperfect and similar stuff for a few more years. So our Latin was mostly, Gallia est omnis divisa... and more talking about that than working on the actual text. I found our Latin instruction for the first few years to be more of an extension of our Italian instruction than proper Latin. But the girls enjoyed it, so I kept up with it. At that point I was less concerned with grammar progress and more concerned with progress with regards to cultural notions they can pick up. You know what I tell you, with us they waited for 5th (yep, FIFTH) grade for these exact reasons. I attended a brilliant school and they could put Latin from first grade with no problems, but they felt we could truly benefit the most with a later start, allowing us time to learn the grammar of our first language (Italian) first, and to focus on modern foreign languages (and other school material, of course). The thing is, prior to certain age, kids can benefit the most out of immersion and unconscious language learning - those are perfect circumstances to learn a modern foreign language. The analytical approach to the language that Latin requires is just not suitable prior to some age for the vast majority of kids. Certainly, you can and will be exposed to some "cultural Latin" along the way, but not get it taught formally until you can access it analytically. With that approach, we started in 5th and basically ended 7th having done the entire morphology, tons of cultural notions and work on text (the difficulty of which was increasing as we progressed), and most of the syntax. That left five years to deal exclusively with the text - five years of "proper" Latin, work on the actual literature. I don't think anything was lost with waiting till the 5th grade, and then covering more material and quicker. Yes, the "morphology stage" requires a lot of the same type of concentration you need when focusing on Math, I agree. The "syntax stage" - which a lot of people don't even reach since they get discouraged far before it - needs a somewhat different type of concentration and one's verbal skills can really profit out of it. But the ACTUAL Latin is what comes AFTER you've learned morphology and syntax. Morphology and syntax are just tools for something else. The "ideal" Latin sequence would be morphology 5th-7th, syntax and some metrics in 8th, and the just lots of text, text and text. With my kids I had to speed up the process a bit, since they basically finished morphology around 6th, but still, DESPITE the fact they kinda started in K (the stuff I used with them were not much different than the curricula for small kids), and that they're excellent and quick learners, they'll be "ahead" of me only for one year in the end, and they started five years earlier than I started. You just can't "speed up" the process of cognitive development of the child and even with very bright kids (mine are definitely in this category) you can't possibly profit THAT MUCH out of early Latin. Of course, all I'm saying is from the perspective of somebody aiming for serious Latin, not just morphology. I just think that formal study of Latin can and should wait for a little, while you can of course play with the littles with Latin as much as they want and they enjoy. :)

K informally (with my own materials and stuff taken from various textbooks), somewhere in the 3rd grade formally (mix of my own materials, texts and various textbooks). I don't think one necessarily needs to start early, I started in 5th, studied it for 8 years, and never considered it a late start, and I had a very good command of the language and reading fluency when I entered university. I started earlier with my kids mainly because *they* wanted to, seeing all the Latin stuff around the house and being interested in the Romans, had good command of Italian and could read well so I thought, why not, we can easily drop it for later if it'll be too much. Appears it wasn't.

I have a MA in Comparative Literature and in Italianistics (Italian language & Italian literature, which I studied from a native perspective, not as a foreign language), and before that I graduated from a school which teaches its students classical philology and literature (both Latin and Greek) to a higher extent than most undergraduate programs for classics. Formal schooling aside, Philosophy too and specific periods in History.

Bump. :)

About a dozen per language (we do two sets of Literature, one for English and one for Italian).

Both Latin and Greek (and Hebrew actually, but we study it as a living language, so...). :)

Against my better judgment, I'm going to suggest this. :) Try having her read non-linearly. Most of the people go nuts if required to approach a work that way, but for some people it can be more interesting, as they feel they're making a "puzzle" by reading a bit at the beginning, a bit in the middle of the book, then the last chapter, then again continuing from the beginning, etc. So you end up reading the entire work, but having to reconstruct the chronology in your mind. If nothing else, at least it's fun - I wouldn't normally recommend approaching literature this way (especially not on a high school level), but maybe it's worth trying with one book and seeing if it would make her feel more amused at least.

Relax, he's 8 years old, he has plenty of time to learn those things. :) For an 8 year old he's great, he managed to write a whole story in a relatively new to him language. My initial confusion was due to the fact I thought that he translated the Latin text into English, so I was puzzled - I was like, the translation is great, but the original not so much, then I thought you might be using some "alive Latin" programs which mix up syntax or disregard some of the morphology at the beginning, but I was still puzzled, only then I realized what was the case. Regarding the cases, well, obviously, he can't know what he hasn't learned yet. Verbs are okay, and concording verbs with nouns in number is good; the morphology of nouns, pronouns and numerals will be an issue for a while more and it's normal. Syntax, at this point, is totally unimportant anyway, if he gets individual parts of the sentences correctly. He'll learn, you'll both learn, keep up with the good job. :)