Critique my scope and sequence for writing instruction 2nd-8th grades

[Pen]

Rose, as Shannon did her most recent MC essay revision, did she work on her own or did you help her through it?  What was the process at that point?

[Cosmos]

For example, my older son and I just went through a randomly selected SciAm article on Daguerreotypes (really random, I just flipped open a back issue). We analyzed the different paragraph types and then asked why each one was there.  This is what we found in each paragraph:

 

It's funny, lewelma, but I was just going through the same exercise this afternoon with a National Geographic article. We have done this with some other pieces of writing, but I noticed you had mentioned National Geo at one time, so I picked one up at the library and, sure enough, the article on lions in the August 2013 issue was quite fruitful for analysis.

 

This is a persuasive well-written piece, but it is not just analytical.  The author did not have the thesis 'Museums should finance scientific research to study the decay of the daguerreotypes,' with 3 points.

 

Exactly! This has been bothering me for awhile as I try to make sense of high school writing. Where does this thesis-with-three-points lead? It doesn't seem to appear in real world writing at all.

 

I find your ideas about "theme" very interesting. I'm not sure that "theme" is quite the right word, but I think I understand what you are saying. I will be very interested to hear how your ideas evolve, especially as you go through WWS3 and see how SWB has chosen to direct the student toward an ultimate goal.

[Pen]

...  Basically, instead of relying on analytical arguments only, they influence you through your emotions.  They help you to 'see' what it is like, not just intellectually understand the arguments.  So basically, the typical high school essay misses a major way to influence people. 

 

For example, my older son and I just went through a randomly selected SciAm article on Daguerreotypes ...WOW.   This is a persuasive well-written piece, but it is not just analytical.  The author did not have the thesis 'Museums should finance scientific research to study the decay of the daguerreotypes,' with 3 points.

 

What I am trying to figure out now, is how/when are these different types of writing used?  How much time should I spend on each?  And is there a best order for teaching? So this is my current thinking. I am not wedded to it -- it is a work in progress:

 

...

 

The thesis with points seems like a  basic way to get kids to be able to write something...but certainly I've never seen that as excellent writing in and of itself as you say.

 

How do you think the writer of the Daguerreotype article would have approached the project?  Outline, if so what sort?  Thesis and points?   Free writing in some way?

[sunnyday]

Sitting on the hold shelf at my library is "The Best American Essays of the Century". These are persuasive and expository pieces written by masterful writers, from MLK Jr. to Vladimir Nabokov. I figure that the best way to see what we're aiming at is to see it in the wild, in its fully developed incarnation. Can't wait to go pick it up.

 

The book I got a couple of days ago, "Voice and Vision", is about how to give the kind of power to a non-fiction or academic or expository (persuasive or not) piece that you're talking about, Ruth.

 

I aim for the stars. As the endpoint of "good writing" I want not the five-paragraph essay that earned me a 5 in AP English. I want truly powerful pieces of prose. If my kid is going to be an essayist, I want them to write an essay like Wendell Berry's "Standing by Words". *swoon* High school essays are but a stretch of the path, a refinement on middle school essays, but not the destination. A pause on the journey to excellence in writing, at best.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Rose, as Shannon did her most recent MC essay revision, did she work on her own or did you help her through it?  What was the process at that point?

 

She went through your comments completely independently, and made the revisions she wanted to based on them.  So, she added some additional info (MC's home city, more about Degas) and she also did the deletion of the repetitive sentences, and revising the last couple of paragraphs, completely on her own. This involved pulling out the books and looking up new info, btw.

 

I did help with the Intro rewrite.  Like I said before, we really haven't studied or discussed Intros or Conclusions.  But because I've been thinking so much about synthesizing essays, I started thinking that a common theme in all our history studies was the experiences of women, the changing roles of women, etc.  She's been doing a ton of reading about women (Amelia Earhart, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Marie Curie, etc.).  So it occurred to me that linking this paper to all that other reading she'd been doing about women would really help make it meaningful for her.

 

So, I just posed the question this way:  I said, "What if you started your intro with, 'Imagine being a woman in the early 1900s'"  and she kind of ran with the idea from there.  I helped her phrase the first couple of sentences accurately (i.e. that you would not "control" your property - I supplied that word, because she had written that you wouldn't be able to own property, and I didn't think that was completely accurate, but didn't want to get bogged down in researching women's property rights.)

 

So there was some partnership writing with the Intro, but the other changes were all her.  I was very proud of her for taking on those revisions, and I think it was a big improvement.  She has learned so much from doing this assignment, every step of the process.  And we both deeply appreciate your feedback and help! It has made her feel very special, very heard, to have another adult read and respond to something that she has written.  Thank you!

[Pen]

She went through your comments completely independently, and made the revisions she wanted to based on them.  So, she added some additional info (MC's birthdate, more about Degas) and she also did the deletion of the repetitive sentences completely on her own.  This involved pulling out the books and looking up new info, btw.

 

I did help with the Intro rewrite.  Like I said before, we really haven't studied or discussed Intros or Conclusions.  But because I've been thinking so much about synthesizing essays, I started thinking that a common theme in all our history studies was the experiences of women, the changing roles of women, etc.  She's been doing a ton of reading about women (Amelia Earhart, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Marie Curie, etc.).  So it occurred to me that linking this paper to all that other reading she'd been doing about women would really help make it meaningful for her.

 

So, I just posed the question this way:  I said, "What if you started your intro with, 'Imagine being a woman in the early 1900s'"  and she kind of ran with the idea from there.  I helped her phrase the first couple of sentences accurately (i.e. that you would not "control" your property - I supplied that word, because she had written that you wouldn't be able to own property, and I didn't think that was completely accurate, but didn't want to get bogged down in researching women's property rights.

 

So there was some partnership writing with the Intro, but the other changes were all her.  I was very proud of her for taking on those revisions, and I think it was a big improvement.

 

 

Thanks!  Helpful to know as a continuation of the story of how the piece began from its earliest moments.  The intro worked extremely well, I thought, nice job helping her with that, and I think also still leaving her feeling like she owns the piece!

 

In re: women owning property, I am not sure of the dates and also places as laws were changed, but I believe she is basically right that most women could not own property--not in the US and I think from what I recall of Georges Sand, for example, not in Europe either.  

 

Until amazingly recently, though I do not offhand know the dates, children were the property of parents and women were themselves the chattel property of husbands--rather like slaves...you could be charged with stealing yourself if you left an abusive husband, say.   I believe an unmarried woman could own property, however.  

[Pen]

Sitting on the hold shelf at my library is "The Best American Essays of the Century". These are persuasive and expository pieces written by masterful writers, from MLK Jr. to Vladimir Nabokov. I figure that the best way to see what we're aiming at is to see it in the wild, in its fully developed incarnation. Can't wait to go pick it up.

 

The book I got a couple of days ago, "Voice and Vision", is about how to give the kind of power to a non-fiction or academic or expository (persuasive or not) piece that you're talking about, Ruth.

 

I aim for the stars. As the endpoint of "good writing" I want not the five-paragraph essay that earned me a 5 in AP English. I want truly powerful pieces of prose. If my kid is going to be an essayist, I want them to write an essay like Wendell Berry's "Standing by Words". *swoon* High school essays are but a stretch of the path, a refinement on middle school essays, but not the destination. A pause on the journey to excellence in writing, at best.

 

 

I'll see if my library can get that too!  Didn't know there was a Best...of...Century.   Thanks!  Who is Voice and Vision by, and is it for kids or adults or all levels?

[8filltheheart]

1. Description of the opening of daguerreotype exibit. Theme = excitement.

2. Description of the slow decay of the daguerreotypes on exibit. Theme = horror.

3. Expository paragraph about why daguerreotypes are special (have no negative and are one of a kind) and who would be hurt by their decay (collectors, historians) theme = why it is important

4. Chronological narrative on how the world's museums responded to this catastrophe. Theme = quick action

5. Biographical sketch of the conservator in charge. Theme = concern and decisive action

6. Summary of how he teamed up with a physicist and what they learned could inspire the future of engineering. Theme = science is amazing

 

So *why* these paragraphs? The first paragraph helps you understand the excitement by being there, which then allows you to experience the horror of the decay in the 2nd paragraph. Without the first and thrid paragraph you could never understand what the fuss was about. Paragraphs 4 helps you see that the whole world was worried and paragraph 5 is about 1 man saving the day with his quick thinking. The last paragraph gives you a summary/thesis for the rest of the article. WOW. This is a persuasive well-written piece, but it is not just analytical. The author did not have the thesis 'Museums should finance scientific research to study the decay of the daguerreotypes,' with 3 points.

 

SWB/ NatGeo/ SciAm essay - This appears to me to be the ultimate goal. If you read the essays in the back of Corbett (MLK and Rachel Carson), they use this format. However, you need to be writing something reasonably long in order to have the time to add in narrative and descriptive paragraphs to help in your persuasion.

 

 

Ruth in NZ

I think everything you are describing does fall under a combo of "informative persuasion." They all have a point to make. The difference is how they go about it. Academic essays are going to have a different voice/style than a political speech or an article that is trying to form readers' views. The common thread is that they all have some sort of contention that the author is trying to sway readers/listeners to agree with.

 

I'm not sure that rhetoric along the lines of MLK, etc is in and of itself an ultimate goal. Great writings across all genres contain stylistic traits that make them memorable or impactful. I think accomplished writers know how to embrace different styles for different audiences while still incorporating key traits. I would suggest the ultimate goal is for a writer to be able to adapt their style, voice, presentation to meet an intended purpose.

[Esse Quam Videri]

I agree that "theme" isn't the right word. In English classes at least, we learn that "theme" can not have an opinion and is usually able to be described in one word. So "hatred" can be a theme (what the author is exploring), but anything that goes beyond that single word, anything that has an opinion (like" hated breeds violence") is actually an implied thesis. I tried to goggle it and found a few articles that mentioned this, but nothing really worth sharing. 

 

Best American Essays of the Century is a wonderful collection- definitely the type of writing I enjoy most (to read and write). I took a course where we had to model the style of different essays from the book to produce original work. It was one of my favorite classes! For me, this type of writing is like a combination of the more academic, analytical essays and a creative work. Writing all the "standard" essays helps, as does writing short story/creative nonfiction.

 

I think sunnyday is definitely on to something in regards to ultimate goals. For me, though, crafting a vivid, compelling literary research paper is just as important as writing a powerful work of creative nonfiction, not because is really matters "in the real world," but because it matters in the college world, even for an English/creative writing major and especially into grad school.

[Esse Quam Videri]

If you don't have access to the book, one of the lesser known essays I really enjoyed is The Search For Marvin Gardens, originally written for The New Yorker. It would be an awesome piece for your high schoolers to read/imitate as well.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Reported post has been removed.

[sunnyday]

I'll see if my library can get that too!  Didn't know there was a Best...of...Century.   Thanks!  Who is Voice and Vision by, and is it for kids or adults or all levels?

 

There's also a best essays of each year, which I might follow up with. I'm just so in love with this concept right now, of the essay as a rhetorical device -- as a piece of compelling writing that drives forward from the author's power and has the flexibility to defy convention without shunning structure and logic and persuasion. I hope this is how the series editor has chosen to define "essay".

 

The full title of the other book is Voice and Vision: A Guide to Writing History and Other Serious Nonfiction, by Stephen J. Pyne. It's written for adults. Here are a couple of quotes from the first few chapters.

 

"This book is for those who want to understand the ways in which literary considerations can enhance the writing of serious nonfiction....History is scholarship. It is also art, and it is literature. It has no need to emulate fiction, morph into memoir, or become self-referential. But those who write it do need to be conscious of their craft....The issue is not whether the writing is popular, but whether it is good, which is to say, whether it does what it intends."

 

[several excerpts from histories of WWI, California, and of the Mann Gulch fire of 1949.] "What do these passages have in common? They all read well. They are vivid; they inform; they make us want to read more; and if you have the instincts of a writer, they make you want to write something as good....Equally to the point, they are all grounded in fact, and don't exceed the bounds of their evidentiary sources. They ponder; they judge; they characterize; they appeal to figurative speech, such that each passage must be unique to its author. But they are not works of fiction."

[8filltheheart]

Sunnyday, thanks for mentioning Voice and Vision. Our library system doesn't have it, so I think I will go ahead and buy it bc it sounds like something that my sr would benefit from reading.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I think it is the lack of appropriate support in developing skills that leads to a lot of the educational issues we have today.   Overwhelming students serves zero purpose. 

 

You know, I started writing a writing curriculum back when I first found out I was pregnant with my 3 yod.   I was too tired and our 21 yos was having major behavioral issues at that point, so I put it away.   I had finished the first 6 weeks.  Maybe I need to pull it back out and finish it. 

 

 

Um, yes please!  I bet you'd find a lot of eager beta-testers here!  :drool:

[Chrysalis Academy]

Ruth, your thread led me to step back and think about my overall goal in teaching writing.  Now, this S&S is just meant to help get me through 8th grade, but stepping back and taking the longer view . . . is my goal preparing my students to be professional writers? To write like NG or SA writers? Or like the author of multiple books?  Hmm.  

 

I'd like to be able to write that way.  I've always fantasized that "the road not taken" for me was scientific journalism.  If either of my kids shows an inkling of an interest in "being a writer" I think I'd have to step back and revise my goals (and my materials, probably).

 

But I think at this point - again, just focusing on K-8 - my main goal is to provide my kids the skills and practice so that high school and college writing is easy for them, and that writing is a tool that they pull out and use, easily, in order to communicate, whether that is in the context of higher education, jobs, or what have you.  I like what Chelli said about focusing in the K-8 years on helping the writer hone their tools, so that they are able to use writing in high school in the service of writing/learning about their content subjects, so that writing is not a stumbling block for them at that point.  

 

So I'm not focused on "the 5-paragraph essay" or the thesis-driven essay as an end in itself.  When dd and I talk about writing, I am constantly talking to her about how we *use* writing in higher education and our jobs.  I talk to her about note taking/outlining skills being useful for learning the things we want to learn, for organizing our knowledge, and for communicating it.  I talk to her about how the ability to read and summarize a complex nonfiction piece is useful - critical - in almost any field of study.  And I talk to her about the kinds of writing she will be asked to do in high school, for standardized tests, and in college.  

 

I don't spend a lot of time talking to her about how to create gripping, vivid narratives a la NG and SA.  We do talk about what makes writing interesting to read, what works for us.  I am enjoying using the models in Warriner's and Essay Voyage with her, and I want to do more of this.  But your thread really got me thinking about goals, big-picture goals, long-term goals, beyond the scope of K-8, and even beyond the narrow focus of academic writing.  So thank you, and I'm still pondering.

 

I think maybe I need to start talking to my dd about what she wants for herself as a writer?

[hollyhock]

Chrysalis,

 

I am late to this discussion but I am closely following SWB's recommendations for writing with my kids, using her audio lectures as my base. Commenting on the S&S you posted in your original post, it looks to me like what you are thinking of doing through 6th grade should actually be stretched through 8th grade, and your ideas for 7th and 8th would then be bumped to high school level writing. I could be wrong, but that's what I thought SWB recommended (outlines and re-writes through middle school and then thesis/essays/original writing beginning in 9th).

 

So, personally, I would say your S&S is advanced, at least if you are trying to follow Susan's methods. Just thought I would bring that up and find out if maybe I'm the one who's off!

[Chrysalis Academy]

You aren't off, Erin, you are right about SWB's recommendations.  I'm trying to modify that to find what works for my kids.  What I've found is that they don't need to spend 4 years, 1st-4th, on dictation & narration in order to master those skills.  On the other hand, I think there is a mismatch between SWB's recommendations in her audio lectures and the difficulty level of WWS.  So if one is following SWB, one has to ask oneself, which SWB? The one who gave the lectures, or the one who wrote WWS?   I do think that WWS is considerably more demanding than what SWB suggests for 5th & 6th grade writing in her lectures.

 

So for my older dd, she was ready to move on in 4th grade.  She would have lost it if I had made her spend the entire year focusing just on narrations & dictations.  My problem is that I didn't have a good transition program between WWE & WWS, so I had her start working on WWS in the spring of 4th grade, and in 5th grade.  In retrospect, I think she would have been better off spending 4th & 5th grade writing across the curriculum, working on mulit-paragraph writing projects perhaps, but more along the lines of what SWB suggests for 5th grade writing in her lectures. 

 

So I'm trying to plot an alternate path for my younger dd before we get to that point, as well as figure out where I go from here with my 6th grader (who is ready for more than what is called for in SWB's lectures for 6th grade - she basically did that in 5th grade).  So yes, I'd say my S&S is accelerated by at least a year compared to SWB's recommendations, because that's what I've found my kids need and are ready for.

 

My goal is to take the various recommendations and materials out there, and to learn from the experience of the Hive, and to craft a S&S that works for my kids.  Hopefully, the discussion is proving useful for other people, too though!  If for no other reason than it show that there are different ways to reach the goal of growing good writers.  :001_smile:

[hollyhock]

Ah, ok. I get it.  :) I completely agree with you that WWS seems to be more advanced than her audio lectures. That's partially why I'm not using WWS.

 

It is all about finding what works for your own kids. My oldest has followed the WWE progression and middle school rec's to a tee, my second oldest is more advanced. And I have 3 more students to come. At least it's easy to tweak!

[lewelma]

Ruth, your thread led me to step back and think about my overall goal in teaching writing.  Now, this S&S is just meant to help get me through 8th grade, but stepping back and taking the longer view . . . is my goal preparing my students to be professional writers? To write like NG or SA writers? Or like the author of multiple books?  Hmm.  

 

I think maybe I need to start talking to my dd about what she wants for herself as a writer?

 

This is what I am pondering.  My ds will absolutely definitely be either a mathematician or some sort of mathematical scientist.  People sometimes laugh when I say that because he is 12, and tell me that he could change his mind.  They are wrong.

 

I don't know if this will help you, Rose, but I think you will find it interesting.  Here in NZ the writing requirements are different than the US. 

 

For high school English, his assessments are

1 persuasive paper

1 literary analysis paper

5 response papers to works of either fiction or nonfiction

1 descriptive or creative piece

1 analysis of visual media

1 production of visual media

1 oral presentation

 

He must pass this class to enter university (he will be doing it through correspondence school).  There is no SAT writing test equivalent.  Neither history nor any other humanity-type class is *required* for entrance.  When he gets to university, he does not take a 'liberal arts' year, but rather goes straight into his major.

 

So I am seriously considering the worth of spending tons of time on a thesis-type paper for *this* child.  If he will only have to write 2 (persuasive and literary analysis) in his academic career, and this type of paper is rare in the world that he will inhabit, I think that I need to think broader for *my* ds.

 

What kind of writing do I want and need to prepare him for in his life besides the requirements listed above?

1. mathematical proof writing

2. scientific research paper

3. adult nonfiction - like Ian Stewart's math books, or articles for Scientific American.  Basically, creating enthusiasm for and understanding of the difficult subject matter that he will study.  I could see this as an outlet for his 'creative' side.

4. grant writing - so a type of persuasive writing

5. everyday writing - letters to the editor, notes of condolence, etc

 

Basically, I don't see thesis-based short pieces on the list, ever.

 

I do *NOT* want you to see this as an attack on what you are planning.  And I certainly am not confident in how I will use the above analysis to teach my older for the next 5 years.  But I do think that it is worth our time to really think through the larger goals.

 

So far, this is how am I meeting the above requirements/goals:

 

1. Mathematical proofs.  We have been studying proof writing methods this past year.  And for the NZ math olympiad, he has just turned in 19 pages of single spaced, paragraph-style, mathematical proofs, the longest of which was 4 pages.  Clearly, ds has mastered order and logic.  So I am hoping to transfer this skill to other content areas and styles of writing.  In addition, I have an offer from a university professor to have my ds e-mail him his proofs for comments.

 

2. Scientific research paper - he has been creating posters and notebooks for his science fair projects, but has yet to write a formal scientific research paper.  I plan for him to do one this year and every year after. 

 

3. Adult nonfiction - this is where SWB WWS comes in to play

 

4. Grant writing - This he will have to learn with an advisor in grad school one day, as I am not touching it.

 

5. Everyday writing - this is just practice.  But he does find it difficult to find the words for awkward situations.

 

1 persuasive paper and 1 literary analysis paper - we will definitely be working on thesis-based writing starting in his 9th grade year.  I believe that the transition to this type of writing will be straightforward given his previous work in mathematical proofs, scientific research papers, and WWS for writing adult fiction.

 

5 response papers to works of either fiction or nonfiction - UG!!  I have started this process orally, and so far all I have gotten is either "I don't *have* a response" or "what do you mean 'how do I feel about this book?'"  This will be a long, slow road, and I expect it will take 2 years of discussion and oral composition (both from him and me) before he will be able to actually write a response paper.

 

1 descriptive or creative piece - WWS has some nice sections on description.  We will be skipping creative writing.

 

1 analysis of visual media - Currently we are just discussing ads (both product and political), websites, movies etc.  I need to do some research to see what this assessment actually entails.

 

1 production of visual media - I plan to outsource this!

 

1 oral presentation - He is well prepared for this with all the years of science fair presentations that he has done.  He is an excellent public speaker

 

 

Rose, please take this in the spirit it is given.  I just wanted you to see the other possibilities out there.  I certainly do NOT want to muck up your plan.  But this is why I am not making my main focus for the next 5 years be thesis-based, academic writing.  For *my* son, it is only one piece of the puzzle.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Chrysalis Academy]

It doesn't muck it up at all! I'm glad you shared your goals for your son, and how you plan to help him prepare for his path.  

 

Your son has much more specific goals already at this point than either of my dds do.  I feel that my job right now is to give them, in K-8, the general preparation and teaching they need to be able to use writing as a tool, whatever path they ultimately choose.  If and when they begin to specialize or focus, we can adjust plans accordingly, but at this point I see no signs in either of them that they'll be specializing to that extent before high school (well, in anything other than loving horses, which takes no specific writing skills!  ;) )  

 

I guess that my overarching goal for them at this moment is that they are equipped to be scholars, in whatever area excites their passion.  Maybe that's a funny way to put it, but I mean that I want them to be able to follow their bliss wherever it takes them without any academic handicaps getting in their way.  That's why my ultimate goals/foci for homeschooling are math, reading to learn, and writing, because I think that with those things, you can learn anything you choose to, and without them, you may very well struggle in trying to reach your dreams.

[Pen]

This is what I am pondering.  My ds will absolutely definitely be either a mathematician or some sort of mathematical scientist.  People sometimes laugh when I say that because he is 12, and tell me that he could change his mind.  They are wrong.

 

I don't know if this will help you, Rose, but I think you will find it interesting.  Here in NZ the writing requirements are different than the US. 

 

For high school English, his assessments are

1 persuasive paper

1 literary analysis paper

5 response papers to works of either fiction or nonfiction

1 descriptive or creative piece

1 analysis of visual media

1 production of visual media

1 oral presentation

 

He must pass this class to enter university (he will be doing it through correspondence school).  There is no SAT writing test equivalent.  Neither history nor any other humanity-type class is *required* for entrance.  When he gets to university, he does not take a 'liberal arts' year, but rather goes straight into his major.

 

So I am seriously considering the worth of spending tons of time on a thesis-type paper for *this* child.  If he will only have to write 2 (persuasive and literary analysis) in his academic career, and this type of paper is rare in the world that he will inhabit, I think that I need to think broader for *my* ds.

 

What kind of writing do I want and need to prepare him for in his life besides the requirements listed above?

1. mathematical proof writing

2. scientific research paper

3. adult nonfiction - like Ian Stewart's math books, or articles for Scientific American.  Basically, creating enthusiasm for and understanding of the difficult subject matter that he will study.  I could see this as an outlet for his 'creative' side.

4. grant writing - so a type of persuasive writing

5. everyday writing - letters to the editor, notes of condolence, etc

 

Basically, I don't see thesis-based short pieces on the list, ever.

 

...

5 response papers to works of either fiction or nonfiction - UG!!  I have started this process orally, and so far all I have gotten is either "I don't *have* a response" or "what do you mean 'how do I feel about this book?'"  This will be a long, slow road, and I expect it will take 2 years of discussion and oral composition (both from him and me) before he will be able to actually write a response paper.

 

...

 

What is a response paper?  

 

It is interesting to read your post, Ruth, and to realize how much goals for writing may be based on local university standards.  For someone who does not need to do that sort of paper for university, there seems little point in thesis based short essays, since it hardly seems to be what is done IRL.   And for most people, there is also probably not the need to get writing up to the standards of the best works of the century...   There is only so much time and energy and it makes sense to spend a lot of that on essay writing if one wants to be an essayist, but not so much if one wants to be a  mathematician or a  musician or whatever else a child might want for his or her life.  And definitely makes sense to consider the child's own (reasonable) goals in that.  In your case, from all you have written it does sound like your son is headed in a maths direction.  It also does not sound like any particular doors close for him if you don't have him to American style school writing.   (In contrast, for my ds, I require that he do math at a certain level even if he does not now think that it is a needed for directions that interest him, because I do think he is likely to change his mind, and do think doors would close.)

 

Even here, different schools in the USA would have very different amounts and levels of writing needed.    Some, especially large ones, seem to have almost all multiple choice type testing and relatively few papers, and may allow majors where there will be almost no writing needed (including math majors who may need to do mathematical proofs, but not much essay type writing).   Others have extensive liberal arts  distribution requirements, almost all essay tests, many papers, and may require a significant written work (senior thesis) to graduate, even for Bachelor of Science in Engineering students.

 

Some of what you mention, like "everyday writing" is worth remembering to include, and to not lose sight of it in the process of preparing to write academic papers.  I think nearly everyone in the modern world needs the "everyday writing."

[lewelma]

I wrote this up on the high school board last month when I was trying to get my head around the difference.  Based on what I have read on the high school board, USA students also need to write response papers in high school english class.

 

And sorry, Rose, I seem to be focusing on high school writing because my son is in 7th grade, so I might be derailing your thread.   oops.

 

 

 

Literary analysis vs Personal response

 

Literary analysis

 

What is it? An analysis of how the author achieves an effect. An argument supported with proof.

 

Elements to analyze

Characterization – analysis of how you can tell xxxx about a character

dialogue – analysis of impact on characterization

imagery – analysis of the development of imagery

mood – analysis of how author achieved mood

plot point of view – analysis of impact of PoV

setting – analysis of how it affects theme, characters, conflict, mood

theme – analysis of the evidence supporting the theme

 

Argue your thesis and give support for ideas from

1) this book or article

2) another book or article

3) reasoning – explain why you think that way

 

Response Paper

 

What is it? An explanation of your own reactions and why you reacted that way.

 

Questions to ask yourself

1) What do you think about the ideas in the article/book? Do you agree or disagree? Why? You can also expand beyond the author's point if you wish.

2) How do the ideas in the article/book relate to your own experience?

3) How do the ideas relate to other things you have read?

4)What do you notice about the way the article/book was written? What about the way it is written that makes it more or less persuasive?

5) Explain your reaction and analyze how the writer's style, tone, word choice, or examples made you feel that way.

 

Argue your thesis and give support for ideas from

1) your personal experience

2) your own thinking and reading

3) common experience

4) another book

5) this book or article

6) reasoning – explain why you think that way

[Pen]

Sitting on the hold shelf at my library is "The Best American Essays of the Century". These are persuasive and expository pieces written by masterful writers, from MLK Jr. to Vladimir Nabokov. I figure that the best way to see what we're aiming at is to see it in the wild, in its fully developed incarnation. Can't wait to go pick it up.

 

The book I got a couple of days ago, "Voice and Vision", is about how to give the kind of power to a non-fiction or academic or expository (persuasive or not) piece that you're talking about, Ruth.

 

I aim for the stars. As the endpoint of "good writing" I want not the five-paragraph essay that earned me a 5 in AP English. I want truly powerful pieces of prose. If my kid is going to be an essayist, I want them to write an essay like Wendell Berry's "Standing by Words". *swoon* High school essays are but a stretch of the path, a refinement on middle school essays, but not the destination. A pause on the journey to excellence in writing, at best.

 

 

Because I myself value writing, my basic take on this is that I feel the same way you do.   And for myself I am very interested in the books you mentioned.

 

At the same time, I need to keep in mind that my son may not be an essayist in the sense that a great essayist is--or maybe he will be, I have no idea right now.  

 

And yet  he probably will  need to be able to write a serviceable essay or whatever we wish to call it, to get into and through college (assuming he is going to college), toward whatever path he chooses in life, in which a great essay may perhaps never figure--there are few Wendell Berry's.   And Wendell Berry himself is a farmer, and a writer, but there are many things that he has not devoted himself to, and which are also worthy.  

 

I also need to keep in mind that a truly powerful piece of prose may not  get him through college, as even at college level some professors or more often teaching assistants are looking for something more mundane: something decently (but not brilliantly) written, and with various points they want made readily apparent so they can check off  points for scoring.  This was something I did not understand when I was in college and wish I had.  I was always trying to write "great essays" and while that got me some A+ grades, it also got me needlessly exhausted to no great purpose, and sometimes got me a less good grade than a basic 5 paragraph essay would have done.  

 

So there is an aspect with writing where I want my son to have some skills, which may be far short of ultimate excellence.  It is a bit like wanting him to have exposure to music even if he is not destined to be a famous musician.   But in the case of music, it is not required as a gate keeper for many areas in which it may hardly even figure.   With the case of some level of "essay" writing, at least in this country at this time, it can be a gate keeper.  So a path to being able to master that level of writing as gate keeper is important.

 

 

 If my son wants to achieve artistic/professional/exceptional level achievement in writing or art or music or ______ , then that becomes a different level of work--perhaps akin to a middle school major.   I think exposing him to enough that he can have experiences that help him decide what he wants to put huge effort into, is my job,  because without ever at least reading a great essay, or trying a musical instrument and hearing music, or trying to paint and seeing art, or trying out science and learning about it, how can he really know what he wants or enjoys or might be good at.  However, I believe that  choosing focus areas where he may spend hour after hour honing his skills toward mastery, needs to come out of him. 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Ruth, I wonder if you would elaborate on your plans for your younger son?  Does he show a similar specialty/passion at this point?  If not, or if it is different, how will you modify your plans?  I realize he will have the same uni requirements as his brother, but I'm curious how your plans for him have been affected by all the research and studying about writing that you have done with his brother.

 

One of the things that prompted me to start this thread was that I'm looking hard at what I'll do with dd7 in the years I haven't taught yet (pre 4th grade) and what I will do differently based on what I've learned from teaching Shannon.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Pen, my copy of Traits of Writing just arrived.  It looks really interesting.  I haven't spent much time on it yet, but at first glance it has features that remind me of Bravewriter, but with more rigor for 6th-8th grades, which is what I need - I don't feel like Bravewriter is asking enough of the student at this stage.  I'm looking forward to spending some time with it this weekend.  I foresee a need to revamp my immediate future plans . . . again!  :tongue_smilie:

[lewelma]

Ruth, I wonder if you would elaborate on your plans for your younger son?  Does he show a similar specialty/passion at this point?  If not, or if it is different, how will you modify your plans?  I realize he will have the same uni requirements as his brother, but I'm curious how your plans for him have been affected by all the research and studying about writing that you have done with his brother.

 

One of the things that prompted me to start this thread was that I'm looking hard at what I'll do with dd7 in the years I haven't taught yet (pre 4th grade) and what I will do differently based on what I've learned from teaching Shannon.

 

I have been thinking about this for the past 3 hours, and it made me realize that I need to put even more time into it!  My main goal this school holidays (the past 2 weeks) has been to get my writing plans sorted for each of my boys.  But have really only been thinking about the current year, so this thread has been very useful in forcing me to think bigger.  I'll post my thoughts tonight.

[lewelma]

To help with the bigger picture, would some of you mind describing what kind of writing you did in university and what your majors were? My younger is not specialized like my older, and I want to keep open all the doors, so I am trying to get a sense of where I am headed to know how to put my focus.

 

So here was my experience:

 

I was a Biology major with a minor in Education. So I took 2 years of science classes and 1 year of education classes.  For these classes I did essay tests, lab reports, scientific research papers, and my thesis. My liberal arts year included 3 writing classes, computer science, japanese, piano, math, and psychology, new testament, and religions of asia. Besides essay tests, the only other writing that was required for these classes was:

 

1. Biological basis of Behavior: This psychology class required a 30 page research paper.  I wrote about parkinsons - the biological basis and the experience of both the sufferer and the primary care giver.  My grandfather had parkinsons and lived in town, so I used direct quotes from both my grandfather and grandmother.  My professor really really liked what I did and said that the description of the experiences of my family was critical to the power of the paper

 

2. Writing class #1: Humor in America.  I had to write about why things were funny - the smurfs, the marx brothers, mark twain.  etc. 

 

3. Writing class #2: The bible as literature. more literary analysis.

 

4. Writing class #3: Essay writing, as in the essays you find in the New Yorker.  My portfolio had to be 40 pages.  I wrote a descriptive piece about an old farm by the river that my sisters and I loved to explore.  I wrote a persuasive piece about using animals in scientific research and used my own personal experiences working in an immunology lab.  I don't remember the other pieces, but those were my favorites. None of the 5 pieces I wrote had a thesis to be proven, but yet did have a clear cut 'theme' as I described earlier.

 

So in addition to scientific writing and essay tests, my university experience included SWB type essays (with narrative and descriptive paragraphs mixed in with expository and persuasive paragraphs, both with and without a research element) and standard literary analysis. 

 

What writing skills did you need in university both for your major and your electives?  I am very curious to learn how different majors require different types of writing.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Great question, Ruth!  I'm just wondering if I can remember back that far . . .  :lol:

 

As part of my GE requirements, I took two Honors English classes, both of which required a number of short literary analysis or response papers.  For most of my other GE classes, I had blue-book essay tests.  These had a very small number of questions, and you had to synthesize info from the course lectures and readings into coherent responses to the questions.  I anticipate that teaching dds to do this kind of writing will be a main focus of writing instruction in middle school and high school.  This kind of writing was way more relevant and useful to my success in college than the couple of long literary analysis papers I did as a junior and senior in high school.

 

My major was Psychology.  I had classes with essay tests, and experimental classes with writeups of experiments - so these were written in the same format that journal articles would appear: Intro, Methods, Results, Discussion.  Always APA style, btw, I don't think I've ever actually used MLA style in my life.  I also worked as a lab tech and had the chance to conduct original research and write up poster presentations for conferences, and write up articles for submission to academic journals.  All APA style, expository scientific writing.

 

My PhD was in Neuroscience (and I studied Parkinson's, btw!) and it was similar, in the sense that most tests were essay tests, some of the early survey classes required short papers on specific topics, the seminar classes all required longer papers in-depth on a specific subject.  But the vast majority of the writing in grad school was writing up our research for publication.  And then writing a thesis.  My department's take on a thesis was that if you had three published papers, you could basically staple them together with an intro and a conclusion, and call that a thesis - they were more interested in seeing students publish in peer-reviewed journals than in having them put a lot of energy into writing a thesis.

 

I know that my experience as a (social then biological) science major has an effect on what I think I need to teach dd to prepare her for college - but really, at this point my focus is more on preparing her to do well on essay exams - the kind I took in history, English, Sociology, Art History, etc. as part of my GE requirements -  than it is to write a specific kind of scholarly paper, because I don't know which direction she'll head.  Clearly if she wants to be a scientist, I'll be well equipped to teach her how to write academic articles based on her own original research.  If she decides to be a Classics scholar or a historian, not so much.  :laugh:

 

 

[lewelma]

Well, I was not very successful at making smaller annual goals.  So this was the best I could do:

 

At the end of 4th grade, my younger has paragraph unity, decent introductions and conclusions, excellent style.  He can write compositions of 12-16 paragraphs although this will take him 6-8 weeks (2 paragraphs per week, he is very slow).  He has been focusing on creative writing for 2 terms, and we will be getting back to nonfiction starting Monday.

 

I am using Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student by Corbett (recommended by SWB) as my guide for where I want my student by 12th grade.  So I plan to have all the pieces in place by the end of 8th grade, so that high school can be for Rhetoric.

 

5th - 7th:

 

Compositions: expository, combining the different common topics into one composition

 

Invention: Study in depth how to really think through each common topic (Definition, comparison, relationship, circumstance, testimony)

 

Style: work through Killgallon middle school orally

 

Arrangement: Different types of introductions and conclusions, connection between paragraphs, topic sentences and paragraphs with unity but not topic sentence.

 

Oral: literary analysis.  I won't him write about literature until his essays are advanced.  My older hated writing baby stuff, but was not able to write anything good.  I'm expecting the same with my younger. So we will discuss, and by 7th grade be coming up with a thesis and points and composing orally.

 

Editing: for ideas, arrangement, clarity, word choice, mechanics

 

Slowly increase speed (I think that this is key)

 

 

8th

Composition - persuasive essay

Invention: begin persuasive essays using the different common topics, begin literary analysis, creating a thesis

Arrangement: not sure what will need to be worked on

Style: schemes and tropes

Editing: continue to improve

 

Not nearly as clear as yours, Rose, but hopefully it will help you in some small way.

[Chelli]

I was a history education major.

 

For history:

• lots of compare/contrast papers
• lots of research papers
• knowing how to find and use primary and secondary resources
• a senior thesis paper 

For secondary education:

• a few research papers
• a few persuasive essays

For general education classes:

• literary analysis papers
• research papers

 

[lewelma]

These had a very small number of questions, and you had to synthesize info from the course lectures and readings into coherent responses to the questions.  I anticipate that teaching dds to do this kind of writing will be a main focus of writing instruction in middle school and high school.

 

I wonder if I am doing my older a disservice by letting him choose his own topics to write about.  We have worked on *how* to write up short answers (as in 4 sentences) to answer very difficult analysis questions, but I have certainly not given him more difficult questions that he would need to research to answer.  Will think about this. 

 

So kids need to be able to both:

Come up with their own thesis and

Synthesize course material to answer teacher-selected questions. 

 

Perhaps I could alternate terms 1 and 3 for their own thesis, and 2 and 4 for answering my questions.  hummmmm

[Chelli]

I wonder if I am doing my older a disservice by letting him choose his own topics to write about.  We have worked on *how* to write up short answers (as in 4 sentences) to answer very difficult analysis questions, but I have certainly not given him more difficult questions that he would need to research to answer.  Will think about this. 

 

So kids need to be able to both:

Come up with their own thesis and

Synthesize course material to answer teacher-selected questions. 

 

Perhaps I could alternate terms 1 and 3 for their own thesis, and 2 and 4 for answering my questions.  hummmmm

 

Almost every history class that I took I had to do both of the bolded all. the. time.

 

I don't know if it was just my history professors, but almost all of my exams were essay exams that involved a lot of taking course material making connections and proving those connections.

[lewelma]

Almost every history class that I took I had to do both of the bolded all. the. time.

 

I don't know if it was just my history professors, but almost all of my exams were essay exams that involved a lot of taking course material making connections and proving those connections.

 

I think that this is where I fall over as a teacher.  Every history class I took in highschool was just memorize the facts and take fill in the blank tests.  I never took a history class in university. 

 

My approach for history has been to give my kids an overarching love for and knowledge of history.  My dh has read to both boys every night for an hour for 8 years.  They discuss, the get out the globe, argue, etc.  My kids watch a couple of history docos every week - so hundreds and hundreds.  I have linked my older boy's literature to his history studies and discuss how they connect and *why* different books were written or were of their era. 

 

BUT, I have never had my boys write about history.

 

Not sure that it will be in the plan for the older, but perhaps it is time to incoporate it for the younger.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I think they are both critical skills, and that we need to get them both in one way or the other.

 

Here's how I'm doing that: for longer papers, Shannon chooses her specific topic (and eventually will learn to develop a true thesis) from within the larger topic of study.  So, for the Mary Cassatt paper, we had been studying art & culture pre-WW1,  and so I asked her to choose an artist or an artistic movement from the time period that she was interested in researching and learning more about.  She's currently studying Astronomy, and she knows that when the unit is over she will write a research paper on the topic of her choice.  We'll be focusing on developing a thesis, and writing strong intros & conclusions for the rest of the research papers she writes this year.

 

I'm also having her answer one essay question at the end of each history topic, to start to learn to synthesize info from multiple sources in order to answer questions posed by the teacher.  She'll do one of these every 2-3 weeks, as we finish a topic, or more if I think of good questions!

[sunnyday]

I was a physics major at a liberal arts college. I feel that I got the majority of my writing instruction from 12th grade AP English, where I had a teacher who'd served as an essay grader and who therefore knew how to write a AP-quality five-paragraph essay.

 

My major needed little writing, although I collaborated on summer research and presented a poster in Washington, DC on the results.

 

Outside of my major I had a liberal arts core on the origin of western democracy, plus electives on music, ancient Greek literature, east Asian studies, and English literature.

 

I always felt like I was throwing my papers together at the last minute, using the monospace font to achieve the page limit, and never really getting a good conclusion in place because it was the last thing I'd write and it would be the point where I'd give up in my overly caffeinated 3am state. Nonetheless, the poor conclusions never lost me more than a couple points in the grading and I achieved outstanding grades in every paper I ever turned in.

[Chelli]

I think that this is where I fall over as a teacher.  Every history class I took in highschool was just memorize the facts and take fill in the blank tests.  I never took a history class in university. 

 

My approach for history has been to give my kids an overarching love for and knowledge of history.  My dh has read to both boys every night for an hour for 8 years.  They discuss, the get out the globe, argue, etc.  My kids watch a couple of history docos every week - so hundreds and hundreds.  I have linked my older boy's literature to his history studies and discuss how they connect and *why* different books were written or were of their era. 

 

BUT, I have never had my boys write about history.

 

Not sure that it will be in the plan for the older, but perhaps it is time to incoporate it for the younger.

 

The general education history classes in college (Western Civilization) were more like this. They did have some short answer questions on the test (3-5 sentence answers) and usually one longer response question (2 or 3 paragraphs).

 

The more synthesizing, making connections, essay tests were reserved for those of us who went on to the higher level history classes. 

 

BTW, this discussion is super helpful for me to see where I need to go with my children. I usually don't think about high school writing since I'm so far removed from it at this point, but having to think about the writing I did in college has helped me focus more on long term goals.

[Nicholas_mom]

First, this is great thread!  I like how alot of different threads about writing are coming out of this thread!

 

I want to respond about the college years.  me, I have a B.S. Science degree.  The first year of college I had some liberal arts stuff small reports and maybe an essay for tests.  Science reports were mini Thesis reports to get ready for doing Master's work.  It made sense that BS science degree will prep for working Master's.  I also had alot of small mini lab reports with science courses. 

 

But dh took alot religion and phylosophy, psychology courses in college both in B.S. (Theology) AND 2 Master's programs (Theology and Pastoral Counseling). 

 

He reads his resources, types his quotes first THEN just types up his report.  As he types his report he adds in his quotes.  No outline, no bibliography cards, just a first and second draft.  The report is in his head.  I think my ds is like this.

 

The MAJOR difference is: he wrote for what the teacher wanted!  This was a garantee A+.  Dh LOVED A's.   He learned in High School how to write a paper TO THE TEACHER.  If he didn't, he got less of a grade.  Sad but true.

 

Now, for my one Major Science Professor in College, she LOVED if you had other conclusions that was not the norm.  But of half of the Science teachers in my Major faculty, they did not like it if you were different.

 

This thread has sparked me to go down the memory lane about my college experience :)  I hope things are different now with the professors.  I don't how to teach my ds how to write a paper to a teacher that does not want it be different AND a teacher who wants you to think for yourself.  How do you do that!

[Chrysalis Academy]

This has been an amazing thread, I've learned so much from it.  I'm starting to dream about writing instruction!

 

So I said upthread that I would share some of my ideas for what materials to use to meet the goals I identified at each level.  I think now is a good time for that.

 

Keep in mind, this is all tentative, subject to change, and will be adapted to the child in question! But these are my thoughts of materials I might use with my 2nd child.  Now that I've gained confidence and insight into the teaching of writing, I don't know that I'll use these exactly as written, or in their entirety, but I think they all have something to add. 

 

I'll also say that as I only have a current (early) 6th grader, I feel more confident about my ideas for 2nd-6th, and 7th-8th are much more vague, as I've not done that yet!

 

Writing across the curriculum will happen intensively every year starting in 5th grade.

 

2^nd grade - Current

Goals:

·         Mechanics of writing: basic spelling & grammar

·         Oral Narration & Summaries

·         Writing 1-3 sentences about topics & books

Resources:

·         LOE & Grammar Island

·         WWE 2 (we are doing two days at a time, an oral narration exercise and the written dictation)

·         Sentence Island

 

3^rd grade

Goals

·         Written narrations & summaries

·         Writing single paragraphs about topics & books

Resources:

·         Writing & Rhetoric Fable & Narrative 1 (Narrative w/ Descriptive Elements)

·         WWE 3 (this will be doubled up and/or spread over two years)

 

4^th Grade

Goals:

·         Paragraphing Skills:  Topic sentences w/ supporting details, unity, developing paragraphs, order & coherence within paragraphs

• Style and variety in sentences

·         Writing 2-3 paragraphs about topics & books

Resources:

·         Paragraph Town

·         Killgallon Story Grammar for Elementary School

·         Writing & Rhetoric Narrative 2 & Chreia & Proverb (Narratives w/ description; Expository Essay) - this doesn't exist yet, but I like the looks of the first two, and may continue with this program

 

5^th Grade

Goals:

·         One-level outlines/Two level-outlines

·         Single-Source Reports

·         Compositions:   Descriptive, Expository, Narrative

·         Basic literary analysis (combining summary + discussion)

 

Resources:

·         Traits of Writing: The Complete Guide for Middle School

·         Writing & Rhetoric Refutation/Confirmation & Commonplace (Persuasive Essays)

 

6^th Grade

Goals:

·         Two-level outlines/Three level outlines

·         Rewriting from Outlines

·         Multi-source reports w/ citations

·         Beginning Essays

·         Strong Introductions & Conclusions

·         Continue with literary analysis:  analyzing plot, character, theme, conflict, setting, etc.

 

Resources

·         Essay Voyage

·         WWS 1 - modified, using our own topics, skipping the research section

·         Killgallon Grammar for Middle School

·         Writing & Rhetoric Ecomium/Vituperation & Comparison (Persuasive & Comparative Essays)

 

7^th Grade

Goals:

·         Developing a Thesis

·         Persuasive & Analytical Essays with an original thesis

·         Answering essay questions

·         Writing about literature

Resources:

·         Lively Art of Writing

·         Breakfast on Mars

·         WWS 2

·         Writing & Rhetoric Impersonation; Description (Descriptive Essays)

 

8^th Grade

Goals:

·         Persuasive & Analytical Essays with an original thesis

·         Answering Essay questions

·         Writing about literature

Resources

·         Writing & Rhetoric Thesis; Attack/Defend a Law(Persuasive Essays)

·         WWS3

[Chrysalis Academy]

Ok, I'm totally geeking out on planning writing instruction today!  Here's what I'm planning for dd10 for the rest of this year.  It's using Culham's Traits of Writing: The Complete Guide for Middle School and Warriner's Composition: Models & Exercises (plus Killgallon Grammar for Middle School):

 

Writing Lessons:  Traits of Writing

 

I.                    Ideas

a.       Finding a Topic

   i.      Warriner 1: Your Experienc

   ii.      Warriner 2: Your Opinions

   iii.      Warriner 3: Your Imagination

b.      Focusing the Topic

c.       Developing the Topic

d.      Using Details

II.                  Organization

a.       Creating the Lead

b.      Using Sequence Words & Transition Words

c.       Structuring the Body

i.      Warriner 4: The Topic Sentence

 ii.      Warriner 5: Unity in Paragraph

iii.      Warriner 6: Paragraph Development

 iv.      Warriner 7: Coherence in Paragraphs

d.      Ending with a Sense of Resolution

III.                Voice

a.       Establishing a Tone

b.      Conveying the Purpose

c.       Creating a Connection to the Audience

d.      Taking Risks to Create Voice

IV.                Word Choice

a.       Applying Strong Verbs

       i.      Warriner 10: Verbs

b.      Selecting Striking Words & Phrases

i.      Warriner 8: Nouns

ii.      Warriner 9: Adjectives

iii.      Warriner 11: Adverbs

c.       Using Specific & Accurate Words

d.      Choosing Words that Deepen Meaning

V.                  Sentence Fluency

a.       Crafting Well-built sentences

b.      Varying Sentence Types

c.       Capturing Smooth & Rhythmic Flow

d.      Breaking the “rules†to create Fluency

VI.                Conventions

a.       Checking Spelling

b.      Punctuating Effectively & Paragraphing Accurately

c.       Capitalizing Correctly

d.      Applying Grammar & Usage

VII.              Presentation

a.       Applying Handwriting Skills

b.      Using Word Processing Effectively

c.       Making Use of White Space

d.      Refining Text Features

[Roadrunner]

Our second and third grade plans are almost identical :)

 

While I don't want to stir the discussion away from the big picture, I would love to know your take on philosophical differences between WWS and Traits of Writing.

[Chelli]

What is this Traits of Writing of which you speak?  :sneaky2:

[Roadrunner]

What is this Traits of Writing of which you speak? :sneaky2:

This one - Culham's Traits of Writing: The Complete Guide for Middle School

See Rose's post with her 6th grade plans.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Our second and third grade plans are almost identical :)

 

While I don't want to stir the discussion away from the big picture, I would love to know your take on philosophical differences between WWS and Traits of Writing.

 

 

I'll let you know more as I start using it, but I'm thinking it goes back to that whole-to-parts/parts-to-whole thing.  Culham teaches you about the craft of writing, the "traits" that go into all writers/all writing assignments, no matter what their specifics.  Its non-linear, much more organic.  WWS is very step by step, very linear, you are building something up by creating individual pieces and putting them together.  At least in WWS 1, there is not much top-down focus on the whole piece.  Traits has you start with your purpose, with your audience, and with communicating your message to your audience with style.  I do think that comes together in later volumes of WWS, more, but really not in the first volume.

 

I actually have an extended version of the plan I posted above which may be what dd7 ends up doing - it has us working through Traits first, then working through WWS to focus on the parts, and on how to create academic essays in history and science, which I think WWS excels at.  WWS shows the student how to write in history, how to write in science, and Traits doesn't address that specifically.

 

So I'm thinking that starting with the big picture may help a student understand what the task is by the time they get to WWS - they will see how the pieces they are learning to craft fit into the bigger picture of the process of written communication.

[Chrysalis Academy]

What is this Traits of Writing of which you speak?  :sneaky2:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Traits-Writing-Complete-Practice-Scholastic/dp/0545013631/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381632521&sr=8-1&keywords=traits+of+writing

 

Pen recommended it earlier on this thread, or maybe on one of the other writing threads . . . it's totally different from SWB's books, more like something that would be used in a classroom setting, but I'm looking through the lessons and they look really good.  It will be a good chance for us to take a step back and look at the big picture, after spending a year working on the pieces.

[Chelli]

http://www.amazon.com/Traits-Writing-Complete-Practice-Scholastic/dp/0545013631/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381632521&sr=8-1&keywords=traits+of+writing

 

Pen recommended it earlier on this thread, or maybe on one of the other writing threads . . . it's totally different from SWB's books, more like something that would be used in a classroom setting, but I'm looking through the lessons and they look really good. It will be a good chance for us to take a step back and look at the big picture, after spending a year working on the pieces.

Thanks for the link!

 

Since it's a Scholastic book, I'll see if it's available during the next $1 sale.

[Roadrunner]

Earlier this year I debated and decided against using 6 traits Evan Moore workbook with my second grader. Now I am reconsidering. :)

[Pen]

Earlier this year I debated and decided against using 6 traits Evan Moore workbook with my second grader. Now I am reconsidering. :)

 

 

Just to say of my own experience, I did not care for the workbooks.   The book addressed to teachers seemed to give something that could be applied to any writing, whether it began in a WWS type of way, or a Brave Writer type of way, or maybe with a program that has the children rewriting classics, even.    Anyway, however the writing began, the traits seemed best to me to use particularly at the revisions stage--to see where something might be changed to make it better.    But changing that big picture over to a workbook approach for me seemed to lose its benefits and make it too ....  I don't know.... too something.

[awisha.]

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[Chrysalis Academy]

I just wrote in the WWS thread in the Logic Board how I am planning to use the Traits book.  I agree, I wouldn't want a workbook, but I really like it as a framework for organizing lessons that really clearly presents the big picture of the whole writing job and writing process.  It's a way to teach about the "forest" of writing, and then something like WWS could be used to focus on individual trees.  If you will pardon the metaphor . . . 

[Chrysalis Academy]

I realize that it may be time for this thread to sink into oblivion, but I had some thoughts I wanted to get off my chest before bedtime, in that elusive quest for sleep that is *not* dominated by dreams about teaching writing . . .  :tongue_smilie:

 

Shannon and I are taking a Big Step Back (not backwards, just back) in order to look at the forest instead of focusing on the trees.  So we're looking at the Ideas trait of 6 Traits, and the Finding a Topic lessons at the start of Warriner's, and so today I had her write about a personal experience.  Now, this is the kind of assignment I normally eschew:  it is not "academic" writing - so self-indulgent and self-referential, right?  But you know what? She did a lovely job.  In writing about a topic she was (obviously) intimately familiar with, she didn't have to struggle with Invention or Arrangement, so she could focus on Elocution, and the result was a pleasure to read.  She wrote about finding and bringing home our dog from the animal shelter.  She used strong and vivid verbs and descriptors, a nicely placed quote, and her voice really came through.  I was very happy with it, and so was she.   It made me realize that a balance between this type of assignment, that really lets her focus on expressing herself as a writer, is important to balance with the more academic type of assignment.  FWIW, today she also answered an essay question about why the Germans chose to initiate unrestricted submarine warfare prior to the American entrance into WW1.  That was a good assignment too - totally different purpose, totally different result, but I am seeing how they both have value.

 

I think this is a good path for us just now.  :001_smile: