Critique my scope and sequence for writing instruction 2nd-8th grades

[lewelma]

Keep in mind that high school English classes require 'response writing.' And I think that writing about a personal experience lends itself to having a personal response to literature and nonfiction.  It is all good!

[8filltheheart]

Shannon and I are taking a Big Step Back (not backwards, just back) in order to look at the forest instead of focusing on the trees. It made me realize that a balance between this type of assignment, that really lets her focus on expressing herself as a writer, is important to balance with the more academic type of assignment. :

Different genres of writing all help develop their writing skills and their voice. I try to rotate through various styles and even have weeks where they get to choose whatever type of writing assignment they want. This week my 6th grader is writing fiction-- she is writing her own version of a Greek myth.

 

What I don't do is force my kids to write fiction if they really hate writing it. My oldest ds despised writing fiction. There was absolutely no reason to make him spend time on those sorts of assignments when he thought that was akin to torture. However, my dd, otoh, would choose to write nothing but fiction if given the choice. Learning how to write reports based on research is not optional. But, she would wilt if that is all I ever gave her as writing assignments.

 

"I" writing assignments. I don't give those, but they definitely need to know how to write them. College apps are full of them. ;)

 

I think the word that sums it up and that you have discovered is simply balance.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I realize that it may be time for this thread to sink into oblivion, but I had some thoughts I wanted to get off my chest before bedtime, in that elusive quest for sleep that is *not* dominated by dreams about teaching writing . . .  :tongue_smilie:

 

How on earth do you sleep during a writing crisis???? :svengo:

 

I was up all.night.long....again. I need to write a confessional post in the sleep threads. ;)

 

At one point I envisioned Mud coming through time and space, or should I say dimensions...what do fish cross at 3am?

 

I kept telling myself How to Write a Sentence: And How to Read One by Stanley Fish isn't some sort of sign. I didn't do a good job convincing myself. :tongue_smilie:  

 

Remember that tidy little WWS/MCT plan I had? Let's pretend it never happened. :ph34r:

I've decided to drop WWS.

[8filltheheart]

How on earth do you sleep during a writing crisis???? :svengo:

 

I was up all.night.long....again. I need to write a confessional post in the sleep threads. ;)

 

.

I am teaching a writing workshop tonight. You are making me worry that I am going to stress out the attendees and end up doing nothing more than create sleep-deprived moms! :tongue_smilie:

[Chrysalis Academy]

How on earth do you sleep during a writing crisis???? :svengo:

 

I was up all.night.long....again. I need to write a confessional post in the sleep threads. ;)

 

At one point I envisioned Mud coming through time and space, or should I say dimensions...what do fish cross at 3am?

 

I kept telling myself How to Write a Sentence: And How to Read One by Stanley Fish isn't some sort of sign. I didn't do a good job convincing myself. :tongue_smilie:  

 

Remember that tidy little WWS/MCT plan I had? Let's pretend it never happened. :ph34r:

I've decided to drop WWS.

 

So my dream last night?  I was back in grad school, but for some reason decided to take a lit seminar for fun.  The whole seminar consisted of me, one other student (a girl I detested from high school) and the prof, and we had written a paper about Sherlock Holmes.  Well, I wrote a response paper w/ no citations, and she wrote a multi-citation report, and I was seized with panic that the prof would decide I had plaigairized and throw me out of school, so  I'd be kicked out of my PhD program!  I was truly panicking, and i went to my advisor for advice about how to handle it, and she said, "What are you doing wasting your time in a lit class?"  I was seriously hyperventilating . . . and then I woke up.  I haven't been so happy to see my dark bedroom at 3 am in a loooooong time!

[Chrysalis Academy]

 

 

Remember that tidy little WWS/MCT plan I had? Let's pretend it never happened. :ph34r:

I've decided to drop WWS.

 

 

Awright, you can't just drop that little bomb with no explanation . . . 'fess up, lady!!   :toetap05:  ;)  :D

[Woodland Mist Academy]

So my dream last night?  I was back in grad school, but for some reason decided to take a lit seminar for fun.  The whole seminar consisted of me, one other student (a girl I detested from high school) and the prof, and we had written a paper about Sherlock Holmes.  Well, I wrote a response paper w/ no citations, and she wrote a multi-citation report, and I was seized with panic that the prof would decide I had plaigairized and throw me out of school, so  I'd be kicked out of my PhD program!  I was truly panicking, and i went to my advisor for advice about how to handle it, and she said, "What are you doing wasting your time in a lit class?"  I was seriously hyperventilating . . . and then I woke up.  I haven't been so happy to see my dark bedroom at 3 am in a loooooong time!

 

:smilielol5: :smilielol5: :smilielol5:

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Awright, you can't just drop that little bomb with no explanation . . . 'fess up, lady!!   :toetap05:  ;)  :D

 

Here are random thoughts in my sleep-deprived state. 

 

I don't think I realized how much time Lily spends writing. Fiction, non-fiction, poetry. . .This is in addition to her school related writing.

 

I started to think about some aspects of the program that seem stilted to me, so I asked her about them this morning. Her response was a reassuring, "What are those?"  :rolleyes:

(I'm convinced they aren't entirely necessary in the form they are presented, so it didn't bother me too much that she had no idea until I reminded her.)

 

The assignment from WWS3 mentioned in the other thread took me back a bit. If that was the 3rd volume, what was in the 2nd? Skipping the writing, we went through it this morning. The whole book. Week by week. That done, we had tea. ;)

 

The other thread kept going through my mind all night. What would we miss if we didn't do it? What would we miss if we did? The answers were telling.

 

As we flipped through WWS2, I started to see glimpses of other places she has been exposed to various content. Not only did there seem to be lots of review from WWS1, but we had covered much elsewhere.

 

I asked her why she takes so long to do the assignments. She said that it's not difficulty understanding, it's that thinking and writing take time. 

 

In the middle of the night I remembered a few papers she did on her own that were in remarkable contrast to her WWS assignments. That concerned me. How had I not noticed it before?

 

I asked her what she had learned. She said rules and how to follow directions. Hmm.....

She then admitted that it's hard to remember where she learned various ideas.

 

Yesterday she was obsessed with opening sentences. I reached for Rebecca and A Tale of Two Cities to show two different, but memorable openings. The room was suddenly charged with energy and possibility. 

I couldn't get those moments out of my mind. Why am I not doing this?

 

Today she told me she feels like she doesn't need to learn all the rules, she needs to learn how to write. In other words, she needs less help with the forms and concepts, she needs help finding her voice. 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Thanks so much for describing all that.  I really appreciate it.  It's similar to conversations we've been having around here, and why we are on (indefinite) hold with both WWS & Essay Voyage.  The process of creating writing-across-the-curriculum pieces has been so rich, and she has learned so much about writing from the process of creating a whole piece, from scratch, soup to nuts.  We need to do more of that.  We also both agree that she's doing fine with Invention and Arrangement, but could use some work on Elocution.  So that will be a focus as well.

 

It is liberating, isn't it? To realize that they are learning . . . when we teach them!  And that we can teach them, our way and their way, and it doesn't have to follow a recipe.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Here are random thoughts in my sleep-deprived state.

 

I don't think I realized how much time Lily spends writing. Fiction, non-fiction, poetry. . .This is in addition to her school related writing.

 

I started to think about some aspects of the program that seem stilted to me, so I asked her about them this morning. Her response was a reassuring, "What are those?" :rolleyes:

(I'm convinced they aren't entirely necessary in the form they are presented, so it didn't bother me too much that she had no idea until I reminded her.)

 

The assignment from WWS3 mentioned in the other thread took me back a bit. If that was the 3rd volume, what was in the 2nd? Skipping the writing, we went through it this morning. The whole book. Week by week. That done, we had tea. ;)

 

The other thread kept going through my mind all night. What would we miss if we didn't do it? What would we miss if we did? The answers were telling.

 

As we flipped through WWS2, I started to see glimpses of other places she has been exposed to various content. Not only did there seem to be lots of review from WWS1, but we had covered much elsewhere.

 

I asked her why she takes so long to do the assignments. She said that it's not difficulty understanding, it's that thinking and writing take time.

 

In the middle of the night I remembered a few papers she did on her own that were in remarkable contrast to her WWS assignments. That concerned me. How had I not noticed it before?

 

I asked her what she had learned. She said rules and how to follow directions. Hmm.....

She then admitted that it's hard to remember where she learned various ideas.

 

Yesterday she was obsessed with opening sentences. I reached for Rebecca and A Tale of Two Cities to show two different, but memorable openings. The room was suddenly charged with energy and possibility.

I couldn't get those moments out of my mind. Why am I not doing this?

 

Today she told me she feels like she doesn't need to learn all the rules, she needs to learn how to write. In other words, she needs less help with the forms and concepts, she needs help finding her voice.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, YES! What I bolded is what is true here too! I will be painfully honest with you right now. :tongue_smilie: Another part of why I have not yet started my promised thread on how we do our writing workshop is that I feel like what we do is really very simple, especially when compared to so many of the thoughtful musings on these boards. We are very much whole to parts here, and the at the very top of my personal writing pyramid (hanging out together like BFF's, LOL) are voice and audience. (At one point I literally did draw my kids a sort of brainstormed writing pyramid on the whiteboard to show them how all LA topics—and, indeed, all academic subjects!—are linked to writing.) Anyway, I have been having a hard time getting my thoughts to sound as impressive as I feel our work has been. :lol:

 

My kids all like writing, and I think it is partly because writing instruction never feels arbitrary to them. It is always tied into content and whatever they are currently studying, struggling with, loving, hating...whatever is engaging them at any particular time. As I said in the other thread, anything that feels arbitrary here (even if I know it's not) does not stick. And if it is not sticking...well, what the heck am I doing wasting my time? :lol:

 

Anyway, I read all the writing threads and I seem to love all of the writing resources. And I still have WWS2 in my cart. :lol: I am starting to understand that it is because I am not so much attempting to mold myself anymore. It is more that I feel more confident and free to incorporate a much larger variety of resources into my personal toolbox as a writing instructor. A while back, in a thread about WWS, I bemoaned the lack of a guide similar to the one for WWE and thought about "reverse engineering" the program to use with our own content. People told me that was crazy, too much work, virtually impossible. Now I see so many people basically saying they are doing just that. Eh, so, yeah, I should have gone with my initial instinct, which is that any writing resource can be a tool in my arsenal instead of an entire arsenal in and of itself.

[Penguin]

Rose, I hope your thread does not sink into oblivion yet - I am still wanting to discuss writing scope and sequence with my college son (who will probably NOT want to discuss writing while on break, LOL)!! But I think he is going to enlighten me, and I hope I can then add something here. 

 

Alte Veste, I hope I wasn't one of the people who discouraged you from reverse engineering WWS - that is pretty much what I did.  And honestly, it was not that hard or convoluted.  I just made a list of what DS was supposed to learn:

 

How to make a 2-level outline

Biographical Sketch

What is common knowledge and how do you determine it?

Etc.

 

Every once in a while I go through the book and see if there is something else that we haven't yet touched on.  I realized recently that he hasn't had an assignment that highlighted a Scientific Natural Process (in WWS, this is a scientific process that repeats itself - think life cycle or something along those lines).  No biggie - I will work this type of assignment in somewhere along the road.

 

By doing the same thing across multiple resources, I feel pretty confident that DS will be ready for high school writing, which is my focus right now.

 

Anyway, my latest writing crush is Warriner's :)

 

 

 

 

 

[8filltheheart]

May I make a suggestion that is a sideways approach to some of what you all are discussing?   My daughters, especially, have enjoyed creating commonplace books.   My 9th grader has created several.   The idea is that they write down quotes from pieces of literature that inspire them.    This dd was inspired to start hers in 7th grade when she read this quote written by LM Montgomery:

 

I hied me away to the woods--away back into the sun-washed alleys carpeted with fallen gold and glades where the moss is green and vivid yet. The woods are getting ready to sleep--they are not yet asleep but they are disrobing and are having all sorts of little bed-time conferences and whisperings and good-nights.  

 

My dd decorates her pages, intersperses them with personal reflections, etc.   They are both inspirational and personal. 

 

If you google commonplace book, you will find lots of links explaining the concept.    They are a way for them to seek writing that inspires them personally w/nothing between them and what they find interesting/inspiring/beautiful.

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

8, Thanks for the reminder about commonplace books. I have always had one of these going myself, and I stll have several of them floating around my house from past decades/eras of my life, and I have a current one, too.  My dd started one last year, but kind of let it drift away and has probably lost it.  Her birthday is coming up in a couple of weeks.  I think a really beautiful book that she will love to write, to dedicate to this purpose, might be a wonderful gift.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Along these lines, we're going to start our Nature Study books again, as well as our poetry and quote books.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Penguin, I adore Warriner's too!  The model passages are really wonderful, and perfect for middle schoolers.  We just read Mark Twain remembering all the wonderful foods he ate at his uncle's farm in Missouri as a boy . . .  

 

We read the short lesson, read and discuss the models, then discuss the assignment one day, then she does the writing the next day.  She's very excited about these assignments! We're currently working through the Ideas section - where do you get ideas for writing - and today's lesson was "Your Opinions."  I explained how opinion pieces show up in other kinds of writing, both academic & non-academic - persuasive essays, book/movie reviews, blogs, letters to the editor, etc.  It was a great discussion, and she decided to write her composition on why, in her opinion, her theater group should do Midsummer Night's Dream rather than Macbeth as their next production.  She wants to send it to the director - so it morphs into a persuasive piece! I'm really enjoying these lessons.

[Alte Veste Academy]

May I make a suggestion that is a sideways approach to some of what you all are discussing? My daughters, especially, have enjoyed creating commonplace books. My 9th grader has created several. The idea is that they write down quotes from pieces of literature that inspire them. This dd was inspired to start hers in 7th grade when she read this quote written by LM Montgomery:

 

I hied me away to the woods--away back into the sun-washed alleys carpeted with fallen gold and glades where the moss is green and vivid yet. The woods are getting ready to sleep--they are not yet asleep but they are disrobing and are having all sorts of little bed-time conferences and whisperings and good-nights.

 

My dd decorates her pages, intersperses them with personal reflections, etc. They are both inspirational and personal.

 

If you google commonplace book, you will find lots of links explaining the concept. They are a way for them to seek writing that inspires them personally w/nothing between them and what they find interesting/inspiring/beautiful.

I love this idea too. Thanks.

 

We do something related for writing. I made bookmarks specifically for us all to mark beautiful or interesting language we come across. Then we have at those passages Killgallon style. It is a real confidence builder for the kids to realize that they can write in the style they personally admire.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Which Warriner's?

[Chrysalis Academy]

I'm using Composition: Models & Exercises, First Course.  The whole Warriner's includes grammar and composition, but I've got grammar covered and really just wanted a focus on comp, and within that I was looking for great, age-appropriate excerpts that model the lesson skills.  I found it.  There are pieces by people like Rachel Carson, Stephen Crane, Arthur Conan Doyle, F.Scott Fitzgerald, Shirley Jackson, Maxine Hong Kingston, DH Lawrence, Car Sandburg, James Thruber, Mark Twain, Eudora Welty, EB White . . .   we love reading and discussing the passages, and so far the assignments have all been useful or morphable into something good.

 

I very anally melded the lessons in this book with the lessons in Traits of Writing.  I like that for a framework, but time will tell if we actually end up doing the lessons - it is very classroom-focused.  It doesn't have the great models I was looking for that Warriner's provides.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I'm using Composition: Models & Exercises, First Course. 

Is it the one from 1982? Sorry if you've answered this elsewhere.

[Chrysalis Academy]

My falling-apart version is copyright 1986.  I'm guessing they aren't terribly different . . . 

 

Ahh, I see the 1982 version is selling on Amazon for $166.97.  Definitely get that one!  :huh:  ;)

 

ETA: I think I got mine on abebooks for $4 or so.

[Penguin]

Woodland Mist,

 

Sorry that I did not respond sooner about Warriner's.  I was also referring to the Composition Models and Exercises.

 

So far, I have:

 

Composition: Models and Exercises

First Course

Franklin Edition 

ISBN  0153109556

 

Composition:  Models and Exercises

Third Course

Heritage Edition 1977

ISBN  0153109696

 

I also have the one for the second & fourth course on order, as well as the Advanced Composition Complete Course :laugh:

If you hunt around on the different sites, you should be able to find them for just a few bucks.  I saw a couple of Teacher's Editions for $$$, but I can't see a Teacher's Edition being necessary. 

 

I like the models, and I like the idea of using models - but I just got these, so only I have read them so far.  Since Rose listed a few from the first course, here are some from the third:

 

Pear S. Buck (the Informal Essay)

James Thurber (Character Sketch)

Thomas Wolfe (Selecting Details)

 

If you want to know more, just ask. 

 

 

 

[Chelli]

For what grade/s do you think the Warriner books would be useful?

[Chrysalis Academy]

Well, it's flexible I think - I think it depends more on the reading level of the models than the exercises.  The exercises could be done by any child who is ready to write multi-paragraph compositions.  I think the models would be fine for 5th grade and up.  Some are more complex than others but so far the few lessons we've done they are fine for my 6th grader, and would have been fine for her in 5th as well.  I think "First Course" in the Warriner world indicated 7th grade, but I think it would be fine for any time in middle-ish school.

 

Penguin, since you have more than one of them, can you tell us about the differences between First and Third course? Are the exercises different, or just the models?  Can you see an upward progression in levels?  Is Third Course "2 grades" above First course, in your estimation?

 

 

ETA:  In terms of skills covered, these are all skills I'd want my student to be solid in before starting high school.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Ahhhh, another one for the "progress is not linear" files. . . 

 

after having done a lovely job on her last writing assignment, dd totally mailed one in today . . . a Warriner's assignment that we discussed *in detail* yesterday, how it would have an introduction stating her opinion (it was a topic she chose, totally relevant and interesting to her, about whether her theater group should do Macbeth or Midummer Night's Dream for their next production), then three reasons with details, each in its own paragraph, strongest to weakest, then a clincher paragraph.

 

Well.   What I got reluctantly handed (after much nagging) was a few sentences she dashed off with no thought.  I was LIVID!!!   I wisely did not respond until after going to take a shower (I love SWB's nap/shower/snack thing for managing moods), and when I did I was calm . . . until I heard myself saying a line from Kill Bill: If the essay is not completed in an acceptable form by Monday morning, you will lose a privilege, "and I promise you, it will be something you will miss."

 

I had to turn around and leave before I cracked myself up.    :smilielol5:

 

Ahh well, tomorrow is another day.  :tongue_smilie:

[8filltheheart]

Ahhhh, another one for the "progress is not linear" files. . .

 

after having done a lovely job on her last writing assignment, dd totally mailed one in today . . . a Warriner's assignment that we discussed *in detail* yesterday, how it would have an introduction stating her opinion (it was a topic she chose, totally relevant and interesting to her, about whether her theater group should do Macbeth or Midummer Night's Dream for their next production), then three reasons with details, each in its own paragraph, strongest to weakest, then a clincher paragraph.

 

Well. What I got reluctantly handed (after much nagging) was a few sentences she dashed off with no thought. I was LIVID!!! I wisely did not respond until after going to take a shower (I love SWB's nap/shower/snack thing for managing moods), and when I did I was calm . . . until I heard myself saying a line from Kill Bill: If the essay is not completed in an acceptable form by Monday morning, you will lose a privilege, "and I promise you, it will be something you will miss."

 

I had to turn around and leave before I cracked myself up. :smilielol5:

 

Ahh well, tomorrow is another day. :tongue_smilie:

Not that you asked for an opinion ;) but maybe expecting all 5 paragraphs written in one day was a little much for a 10 yr old. With my kids at 10, I would have probably worked with them on the topic sentence for the topic paragraph and then the topic sentences for the remaining paragraphs and then left her to do the rest. My kids have always found the topic sentences the hardest and have been able to do supporting details more easily and having the body paragraph topic sentences, creating the topic paragraph shouldn't have been too difficult.

[Chrysalis Academy]

You know I live for your opinions!!!!   ;)  :D

 

And I am sure you are right.  It's a funny age, my dd seems to bounce back and forth between being sooo capable and impressing my socks off, and then being such a little girl who wants to duck out of work to go play with her Breyer horses. . . . part of my frustration today was that we've had a pattern of very slacker Fridays, where I leave her a to-do list while I'm trying to do some (paying) work, and she doesn't, um, work up to her potential.  So it was a bigger issue for me, feeling like from a expectations/accountability issue I needed to not let her get away with doing what I'm pretty sure she knew was an inadequate job.

 

But, having said that, your point is well taken.  I often err on the side of assigning something too demanding.  I am trying very hard to realize it isn't all or nothing, that there is *so much* value in teaching her, step by step, how to do something, doing it together a few times, before expecting her to do it alone.  I need to remain vigilant with myself about this.

 

A good example - I'm trying to teach her how to take notes from books in history, and on Thursday she was totally overwhelmed, didn't know what to do at all.  I was internally a little frustrated, thinking "Just read the chapter, write down the main points.  How hard is that?"  But then, that voice of sanity reminded me:  SHE IS 10!!  Ok, almost 11, but still.  What is easy for me, having done it hundreds of times, is of course daunting for her.  So, we sat down together and went through the whole chapter, paragraph by paragraph.  I think it helped.  I think she learned about the process.  I also think we'll need to do that again, probably many times, before she is ready to do it on her own.  (Where is the smacking myself in the forehead icon?)

[Penguin]

I read somewhere that the The Grammar and Composition Series was written for use in grades 7 to 12.

 

The Composition:  Models and Exercises (M&E) series is its companion, but I think that M&E stands alone just fine.

 

I can compare the 1st and 3rd course of M&E for you, but I don't have the 2nd course yet in hand.  There is a definite leap (which of course you would expect), but is it a two-grade leap?  I don't know - like nearly everything, I guess it would depend on the student.

 

Coming down to the word / sentence level:

 

First Course - Section Three has four lessons on choosing words (nouns, adjectives, verbs and adverbs).

Third Course begins Sentence Skill lessons in Section Two (Description).  Thereafter, new sentence skills are introduced at the end of each section.  For example,  the student explores moving adverb phrases to shift emphasis, and changing adverb clauses into gerund phrases.  The sentence skills are taught by referring back to the models that have already been used to teach a composition structure.

 

 

Third Course goes deeper into every composition aspect that is covered in the first course.  The only "brand new" section that I see in the 3rd is its concluding section -- writing about literature.  In comparison to the previous sections, there is very little direct instruction.  Writing about poetry consists of exactly four paragraphs plus the poems.  But the student is tasked with comparing and contrasting two poems, so it is not a super-simple assignment. Maybe the 2nd course introduces literary analysis and explains more of the basics (?).

 

Overall, I am really excited about these books!

 

ETA:  When you search online for used copies of Warriner's, you might see Heritage Edition, Franklin Edition or Liberty Edition in the description.  I have ended up with a rather motley collection!!

 

 

 

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Curses! My insomnia has given way to nightmares. . . I think that's improvement. Ugh. I had a dream I received a HUGE packet to be a beta tester for WWS 3. There were all sorts of bubble sheets and official documents to complete. I would receive a packet in the mail every week. :svengo:

 

Back to reality. . . :tongue_smilie:

 

I ordered Third Course for reasons I can no longer remember. I'm super picky about used books so it was probably because it gave a detailed description of the condition. If I like the looks of it, I imagine I will order more to find the best fit. I got this one for under $10, including shipping.

 

Thanks for the info about the different levels!

[Chrysalis Academy]

Not that you asked for an opinion ;) but maybe expecting all 5 paragraphs written in one day was a little much for a 10 yr old. With my kids at 10, I would have probably worked with them on the topic sentence for the topic paragraph and then the topic sentences for the remaining paragraphs and then left her to do the rest. My kids have always found the topic sentences the hardest and have been able to do supporting details more easily and having the body paragraph topic sentences, creating the topic paragraph shouldn't have been too difficult.

 

 

Ok, can you flesh this out for me a little bit more?  Pretty please?  We got past the discipline issue, Shannon has just spent an hour and a half of her Sunday morning doing her Friday writing assignment.  Point made and taken.

 

But, but, but . . . I need help giving feedback!  The paper is pretty terrible.  I'm not sure where to start in giving feedback.  We talked about the content and organization for a long time.  She did great brainstorming and made a long list.  She organized the list into "details" and "reasons".  She wrote an outline.  Then she sat down and wrote four paragraphs that sound like they were written by a little kid.  Weak, vague, not well organized, bad topic sentences, not enough detail so we know what she is talking about . . . I don't even know where to start in giving feedback.

 

Clearly, I should have done what you suggested.  I should have sat with her and helped her plan out each paragraph and write a strong topic sentence.  Do I do that now?  Do I go back over it and explain all the main problems? (Your introduction doesn't have enough detail so that we know what you are talking about.  I can't really tell exactly what your first reason is - you give all your details in random order.  You need a strong topic sentence clearly stating your reason, then support it with details.  Ditto with the second paragraph.  Your conclusion is totally vague and cliche)

 

Gah, this is so hard! My confidence in teaching this way is definitely shaken.  Clearly I am doing something wrong, pushing ahead too fast, expecting too much, skipping over intermediate steps that I should be teaching explicitly . . . but how?   

 

What is sad is that she worked hard on this, for a long time, and is really excited, and wants to send it to her director . . . and it just isn't good.  It's a weak first draft that needs a lot of revision.  I want to turn this into a teaching opportunity, so that she learns something and produces something she should truly feel proud of, and I'm not sure exactly how to pull that off . . . 

[Mrs Twain]

Ok, can you flesh this out for me a little bit more?  Pretty please?  We got past the discipline issue, Shannon has just spent an hour and a half of her Sunday morning doing her Friday writing assignment.  Point made and taken.

 

But, but, but . . . I need help giving feedback!  The paper is pretty terrible.  I'm not sure where to start in giving feedback.  We talked about the content and organization for a long time.  She did great brainstorming and made a long list.  She organized the list into "details" and "reasons".  She wrote an outline.  Then she sat down and wrote four paragraphs that sound like they were written by a little kid.  Weak, vague, not well organized, bad topic sentences, not enough detail so we know what she is talking about . . . I don't even know where to start in giving feedback.

 

Clearly, I should have done what you suggested.  I should have sat with her and helped her plan out each paragraph and write a strong topic sentence.  Do I do that now?  Do I go back over it and explain all the main problems? (Your introduction doesn't have enough detail so that we know what you are talking about.  I can't really tell exactly what your first reason is - you give all your details in random order.  You need a strong topic sentence clearly stating your reason, then support it with details.  Ditto with the second paragraph.  Your conclusion is totally vague and cliche)

 

Gah, this is so hard! My confidence in teaching this way is definitely shaken.  Clearly I am doing something wrong, pushing ahead too fast, expecting too much, skipping over intermediate steps that I should be teaching explicitly . . . but how?   

 

What is sad is that she worked hard on this, for a long time, and is really excited, and wants to send it to her director . . . and it just isn't good.  It's a weak first draft that needs a lot of revision.  I want to turn this into a teaching opportunity, so that she learns something and produces something she should truly feel proud of, and I'm not sure exactly how to pull that off . . . 

 

Not that you asked me either...

 

I have a 10 y.o. 5th grader. For a multi-paragraph composition, I have him write one paragraph at a time.  In general he starts by working on the the detail paragraphs one by one.  We revise the first paragraph before he moves on to the outline and rough draft for the second one, and so on.  After the detail paragraphs are revised, he writes the introduction paragraph, and we revise that.  Finally he writes the conclusion paragraph, and we revise that.  A five-paragraph report is a reasonable assignment for a 5th grader IMO, but in our house it would take at least a week or more likely two weeks to produce a final, "neat" copy.

 

BTW--I consider my 5th grader a strong writer for his age, compared to his peers.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Thanks Mrs. T!  This is what I decided - after another shower,  :lol: .  I've learned it's best to not decide anything about writing without taking a shower.  So, next week is set: Monday - Introduction.  Tuesday - paragraph 1.  Wednesday - Paragraph 2, Thursday, conclusion.  

 

Note to self: slooowwwww dowwwwwwwwwwwn.

[Chrysalis Academy]

dp

[8filltheheart]

I'm actually going to give even slightly different advice.

 

Drop this paper.   Move on.   You both have emotions attached to it.   Yours negative.   Hers positive.   Just chalk it up as a learning experience and know how not to do things next. 

 

I am also going to offer an alternative approach so that she doesn't know what you think about it and so that it is scaffolding subterfuge.  I would take the next few topics that you want her to write and have her write them as small research books with only 1 paragraph per "chapter."    Provide her the topic sentence for each "chapter" and only work on one per day.   After doing a couple of these, you could go a couple of directions.....go back to the first "research book" and compose a topic paragraph together based on the various "chpts" or do it with a new topic.   But, mainly, give you both some distance from this experience and focus on researching and writing individual paragraphs well before you jump straight back into a multi-paragraph report.   

 

FWIW, my kids have found the concept of a topic paragraph easier to write after the body paragraphs when they are initially learning how to write a multi-paragraph report.   Why?   The topics being discussed are already there in front of them and learning how to introduce them in a topic paragraph and then going through and adding transition words/sentences makes them understand the flow.    I don't recommend this approach for more than a few reports.   But, it does help them solidify the concept.

 

Another FWIW.....i don't see this as stepping backward.   Kids that have solid skills move forward more quickly than those left floundering around trying to figure out what the heck they are supposed to be doing and lack the skills to actually do it.   It is simply increasing the tools in her toolbox so that she has something to build with in the future.  

 

HTH

[Pen]

Ok, can you flesh this out for me a little bit more?  Pretty please?  We got past the discipline issue, Shannon has just spent an hour and a half of her Sunday morning doing her Friday writing assignment.  Point made and taken.

 

But, but, but . . . I need help giving feedback!  The paper is pretty terrible.  I'm not sure where to start in giving feedback.  We talked about the content and organization for a long time.  She did great brainstorming and made a long list.  She organized the list into "details" and "reasons".  She wrote an outline.  Then she sat down and wrote four paragraphs that sound like they were written by a little kid.  Weak, vague, not well organized, bad topic sentences, not enough detail so we know what she is talking about . . . I don't even know where to start in giving feedback.

 

Clearly, I should have done what you suggested.  I should have sat with her and helped her plan out each paragraph and write a strong topic sentence.  Do I do that now?  Do I go back over it and explain all the main problems? (Your introduction doesn't have enough detail so that we know what you are talking about.  I can't really tell exactly what your first reason is - you give all your details in random order.  You need a strong topic sentence clearly stating your reason, then support it with details.  Ditto with the second paragraph.  Your conclusion is totally vague and cliche)

 

Gah, this is so hard! My confidence in teaching this way is definitely shaken.  Clearly I am doing something wrong, pushing ahead too fast, expecting too much, skipping over intermediate steps that I should be teaching explicitly . . . but how?   

 

What is sad is that she worked hard on this, for a long time, and is really excited, and wants to send it to her director . . . and it just isn't good.  It's a weak first draft that needs a lot of revision.  I want to turn this into a teaching opportunity, so that she learns something and produces something she should truly feel proud of, and I'm not sure exactly how to pull that off . . . 

 

Post it on the Writing Board like the Mary Cassatt one?  I'd be happy to read and respond as an outside reader if that'd help?

[Woodland Mist Academy]

How interesting to read the various editing approaches! I would take yet another angle, but I enjoyed reading what others would do. It's fun to get glimpses into what people do when things go less smoothly than planned. :tongue_smilie:

 

Keep us posted!

[Chrysalis Academy]

After thinking it through, I decided to take 8's advice.  I need to back off and slow down.  Only in my own twisted logic would we leap from "your opinions as a source of ideas for writing" to "Write a persuasive essay about a real-life topic that is important to you and submit it to an adult to try and change his mind."   :scared:

 

I haven't taught her how to write essays yet . . . I haven't taught her to write Intros & Conclusions . . . I haven't taught her persuasive writing . . . what the heck was I thinking?  And how unfair to be disappointed with her.  I definitely let me frustration with her blowing off an assignment on Friday get conflated with the fact that the assignment was ridiculously difficult and inappropriate . . . 

 

So, we're back to FOLLOWING MY PLAN!!!!  Novel idea, I know  :glare:

 

Today we're going to go through a Warriner lesson - just reading the lesson & model, no assignment.  And for history, she is practicing identifying main points/topic sentences (under the theory that once she learns to id them, see them, and understand them, she'll do a better job writing her own).  She did this today and did an excellent job.  I will also be having her write summary paragraphs for history topics, and topic paragraphs, as 8 suggested.  We'll go with that for awhile . . . 

 

Back to writing across the curriculum, and studying the big-picture of the writing process, with Ideas lessons from Traits of Writing.  Like I originally planned to do last week . . . I'm such a  :biggrinjester:

[sunnyday]

And I am sure you are right.  It's a funny age, my dd seems to bounce back and forth between being sooo capable and impressing my socks off, and then being such a little girl who wants to duck out of work to go play with her Breyer horses. . . . part of my frustration today was that we've had a pattern of very slacker Fridays, where I leave her a to-do list while I'm trying to do some (paying) work, and she doesn't, um, work up to her potential.  So it was a bigger issue for me, feeling like from a expectations/accountability issue I needed to not let her get away with doing what I'm pretty sure she knew was an inadequate job.

 

It's almost as if her...ownership...of the writing process were...faltering? Between the ages of 10-12? ;)

 

http://blog.bravewriter.com/2012/07/21/05-faltering-ownership-2/

[Alte Veste Academy]

It's almost as if her...ownership...of the writing process were...faltering? Between the ages of 10-12? ;)

 

http://blog.bravewriter.com/2012/07/21/05-faltering-ownership-2/

:lol: Well played!!! :lol:

[Pen]

How is it going now?   BTW did she think her drama group should do Macbeth or MidS.N.Dream?  I've been wondering!

[Chrysalis Academy]

It's almost as if her...ownership...of the writing process were...faltering? Between the ages of 10-12? ;)

 

http://blog.bravewriter.com/2012/07/21/05-faltering-ownership-2/

 

:lol:  You mean this has happend to someone else's kid, too????    ;)  :smilielol5:

[Chrysalis Academy]

How is it going now?   BTW did she think her drama group should do Macbeth or MidS.N.Dream?  I've been wondering!

 

Midsummer Night's Dream - she's hoping for that, but her director really wants to do Macbeth.

 

We had a great week.  We've been working on exercises from Traits of Writing, and she has had a really great time with them.  We're focusing on how to add details to support main ideas and the exercises, some of which seemed a little goofy to me, have actually been really helpful and enjoyable, and have led to good discussions of the underlying principles that can apply to academic writing, too.

 

She's also really gotten note taking in history!!  She's done such a great job every day this week and I think she finally understands how to pick out the main point and paraphrase it.  Not only is she learning history better, but she now sees the connection between reading to learn, note taking, and writing.  

 

So I think this focused work on figuring out the main idea/topic and figuring out how to add detail to support/flesh out a main idea is really paying off.  She isn't producing impressive multi page reports, but she is really having a good time and solidifying some critical basic skills.  

[Pen]

How is writing going going for all of you at this point?

 

For people who have John Warriner's books discussed above, how different are the books from the First Course to the later courses? What changes? the scope and sequence, or model difficulty or other or all of above? I just came to realize that while I thought I understood what you meant when discussing Warriner's, that what I have seen of Warriner's is a 1986 English Grammar and Composition book Third Course, and that it is different than the Composition: Models and Exercises series that you were discussing above.

[Chrysalis Academy]

How is writing going going for all of you at this point?

 

For people who have John Warriner's books discussed above, how different are the books from the First Course to the later courses? What changes? the scope and sequence, or model difficulty or other or all of above? I just came to realize that while I thought I understood what you meant when discussing Warriner's, that what I have seen of Warriner's is a 1986 English Grammar and Composition book Third Course, and that it is different than the Composition: Models and Exercises series that you were discussing above.

 

Well, I only have the first course so I can't help with a comparison.  Somebody - maybe Penguin? - did offer a comparison of 1st and 3rd, but I have a feeling it was on one of the WWS threads on the Logic board.

 

We're using the Composition:Models and Exercises book.  As you say, it's different than the English Grammar & comp book.  It's a slim volume, 17 Lessons, all focused on writing.  What we've been doing is kind of a mind-meld of Warriner and the Traits of Writing book.  What that looks like is that we'll do the Traits lessons, and then do the Warriner lessons that relate to that trait.  We've finished the Ideas and Organization traits, and we'll be focusing on the Style/Elocution traits starting in January.  We're taking a break to do another longer research report between now and christmas break.  The idea there is that we have now focused on introductions & conclusions and internal organizations, so she'll be trying to incorporate those elements into her report.  Not sure what she'll pick to write about, yet.  She always wants to write about horses! But I want her to pick a topic that she is interested in, but doesn't already know a ton about, so that she needs to do research to develop the content.  We'll see.

 

Overall I've been happy with how this plan has been going.  She's been doing frequent short papers focusing on the traits or the Warriner's lessons - one to 3 paragraphs - as opposed to any longer assignments.  So I feel like it's time to try a longer assignment again.  But she has enjoyed and feels like she's been learning from the lessons we've done.  I'll be interested to see to what extent it transfers to her own, totally independent writing project.

 

She's also continued to do notetaking with history, and has greatly improved in that.  I haven't insisted on perfect outline form, my goal for her is to be able to pick out the main idea in each paragraph or section.  She's gotten very good at it, so I've been pleased that we've been hitting the "read to learn" and "notetaking" goals through history studies.

 

We haven't really written about literature this year.  That's kind of fallen by the wayside with the focus on history note taking and the specific Trait/Warriners writing lessons.  But I guess you can't do everything at once!

 

We're going to try a TC video (The 21st Century Solar System) because Astronomy has eaten our science this year!  I am planning to use that as an opportunity to start teaching note taking from lectures.  We'll see how it goes.  I think it might be a good thing to try it with, because the course book includes lecture outlines, so I can have her take her notes, and them compare them to the course notes to see if she's getting most of the main points.  We may do some rewriting from notes, too.  I'll also be taking notes beside her and rewriting, so hopefully that will model the process as well.

 

Geez, it sounds like we could do nothing but writing and math all day!!!  Sometimes that sounds appealing  . . . 

 

I've also "settled" on a plan for next year's writing - at least until I change my mind!   We're going to go through the Lively Art of Writing first, and then we'll start working on the different types of essays, using this book as a guide:  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1601631405/ref=oh_details_o05_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

and this book for contemporary model essays:

http://www.amazon.com/Breakfast-Mars-Other-Delectable-Essays/dp/1596437375/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1385919252&sr=1-1&keywords=breakfast+on+mars

 

Wow, what a tome, sorry - but I'd love to hear how everyone else's writing year is going! Thanks for reviving, Pen!

[Pen]

I like your idea of using TC for practice with note taking. So far we have not addressed that at all. DS is a strong auditory learner with some dysgraphia, so it may be that he would be best off listening to lectures, and, if allowed, recording so he could listen more than once. However, that does sound like an excellent way to be able to practice the skill.

 

I'm glad it is going well!

 

I'll see if I can find the Penguin post, or try PM to Penguin.

 

The Warriner's Grammar and Comp book I am looking at has 12 chapters/432 pages devoted to writing and seems to be differently done entirely from what you describe. I was thinking maybe the Comp exercises books are just the writing portion of the Grammar and Comp books, but I am not sure that is so.

[Penguin]

Pen, I think that the post of mine that you are looking for is #177 in this thread.

 

I now have all of the Warriner's Models and Exercises:  First through Fifth Course as well as the Advanced Composition:  A Book of Models for Writing.  I can't post a thorough comparison of the levels at the moment, but I will come back and do so...soon.  Do note that the Advanced Composition is not a collection of the other courses - it is a different course.

[Pen]

Thank you, Penguin, and also for your PM. If you get more time to describe what is in them I would appreciate it.

 

I have access to Grammar and Composition, Third Course, Liberty Edition,1986, which has a tremendous amount of a pretty full LA curriculum, so partly I am wondering if the  and Models and Exercises are the same or nearly so as the Composition part of the Grammar and Comp. (Composition part is over 400 ages and Grammar, Mechanics etc. another 300 or so). If they are different, then I am wondering how much more advanced the Third Course is than, the First and Second.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

We are just starting Third Course, Composition Models and Exercises.

 

Lily finished her first paper from Advanced Academic Writing, which was a happy success. Then life happened, so we dropped writing for a couple weeks.

 

Our current plan is continue with AAW and M and E Third Course until there is a reason not to. The fit seems better than WWS 2.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

We are just starting Third Course, Composition Models and Exercises.

 

Lily finished her first paper from Advanced Academic Writing, which was a happy success. Then life happened, so we dropped writing for a couple weeks.

 

Our current plan is continue with AAW and M and E Third Course until there is a reason not to. The fit seems better than WWS 2.

 

Well, it didn't take long to find a reason not to continue. Actually, multiple reasons.

 

1. The Models and Exercises assignments are too self-centered.

2. There seems to be a disconnect between the quality of the selections and what is being requested in the assignments.

3. The assignments seem too short and easy.

 

Bah humbug!

 

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Different genres of writing all help develop their writing skills and their voice. I try to rotate through various styles and even have weeks where they get to choose whatever type of writing assignment they want. This week my 6th grader is writing fiction-- she is writing her own version of a Greek myth.

 

What I don't do is force my kids to write fiction if they really hate writing it. My oldest ds despised writing fiction. There was absolutely no reason to make him spend time on those sorts of assignments when he thought that was akin to torture. However, my dd, otoh, would choose to write nothing but fiction if given the choice. Learning how to write reports based on research is not optional. But, she would wilt if that is all I ever gave her as writing assignments.

 

"I" writing assignments. I don't give those, but they definitely need to know how to write them. College apps are full of them. ;)

 

I think the word that sums it up and that you have discovered is simply balance.

 

I really needed to hear this today. Thank you! I think I'm going to combine Plan A and Plan B to create Plan C.

 

Plan C--Big mix of Warriner's, WWS, AAW, Killgallon, and goodness knows what else.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Well, it didn't take long to find a reason not to continue. Actually, multiple reasons.

 

1. The Models and Exercises assignments are too self-centered.

2. There seems to be a disconnect between the quality of the selections and what is being requested in the assignments.

3. The assignments seem too short and easy.

 

Bah humbug!

 

I'm glad you came back and posted this here . . . for posterity's sake!

 

I have also concluded that Warriner's isn't "it" for pretty much the same reasons.  I really, really like the Models!  But the assignments are redundant and not challenging.  And, as you say, not related specifically to the skill being modelled.  So I think I will probably pore through the book and mark my favorite models, and then try and use them to teach the concept - then actually have her model them in a mom-made assignment.  But sometimes that's too much trouble!  So I see doing that more as a break from other things, not as an every day, do the next thing kind of curriculum.

 

We have gone through the Ideas and Organizations traits in Traits of Writing, and in January will pick back up and do the several Elocution/Style traits.  That book is nice for good, focused, big-picture lessons, but again the assignments aren't really what I'm looking for . . . 

 

In these last few chaotic weeks, we have circled back around to WWS2.  She's done Week 5 (compare & contrast 1) and week 6 (Intros & Conclusions) and will do week 7 (Compare & contrast 2) next week before Xmas break.  It has really been quite independent, painless, and fruitful! She has done good, solid work, has learned new writing skills, and hasn't really needed much hand-holding at all.  I think it's partly a combination of increased maturity for her, and I do like the WWS2 assignments better, at least these three weeks.  She did roll her eyes at having to compare & contrast beavers & platypuses, but whatever.   It was a good exercise, and it is clear how to apply it to other topics.  C&C essays are one of the easier types for kids to "get," don't you think? 

 

So I see us continuing with a mix of big-picture lessons via Traits and focused skill-building with WWS 2 for the rest of the year.  Next year we'll be tackling essays with Lively Art of Writing and supplemented with the book Homework Helpers: Essays & Term Papers recommended by Matroyska.  At least, that's the plan for now!