If you are opposed to abortion, what do you do for the unborn?

[muffinmom]

My reasons for this are biased and personal. Both of my parents were murdered, and the person/persons that violently murdered them are out and about living free and well in society. They could be your neighbors, the roofer that spent a week working at your house, the Best Buy worker that helped you carry the computer to your car, your kids co-worker at a local restaurant...

 

 

So sorry! :grouphug::grouphug:

[Melinda in VT]

See, I'm wishy washy as far as the morning after pill and some IUDs are concerned, but abortion is very clear to me, especially at 6 (or in some cases 7/8) weeks, when there is a heart beat.

 

 

That's one of the things that keeps me voting pro-choice. I have absolutely no moral qualms with birth control pills, the morning after pill, or IUDs.

[Harriet Vane]

Why the Simple Right to Abortion is Unjust

 

 

By John Piper January 15, 1990

 

The most popular defense of abortion today is this: without it women are forced to experience great misery and even death, especially in poor countries with limited access to contraceptives. In my conversations with these defenders, the bottom line does not seem to be that the unborn are not human beings or persons. The bottom line is a woman’s right not to be pregnant and not to endanger herself with unsafe abortions. It seems that more and more it is irrelevant that the unborn may be a human being with a right not to be killed.

 

There are at least three generally accepted principles of justice that stand in the way of this reasoning.

 

1. Justice proceeds on the assumption that if one person’s legitimate right must be limited in order to protect another’s legitimate right, the limitation that does the least harm will be the most just. Injustice is not the denial of rights per se. Injustice is the denial of one right to maintain another when the one denied protects a lesser value than the one maintained. Denying rights that protect lesser values for the sake of maintaining rights that protect greater values is what virtually all laws are supposed to do. We are denied the right to drive at 100 miles per hour because the value of life is greater than the value of being on time for an appointment. So it is an act of justice to take away the right to speed.

Except in the rarest cases pregnancy does not threaten as much harm to the mother as abortion does to the child. In fact the harm done to the child is almost always horrific while the harm possible to the mother is much less. Therefore it is a matter of justice to deny the mother the right not to be pregnant at the cost of aborting the child.

 

2. Justice proceeds on the assumption that when either of two people must be inconvenienced or hurt to alleviate their united predicament, the one who bore the greater responsibility for the predicament should bear more of the inconvenience or hurt to alleviate it. For example, if I take my fourteen year old son with me to rob a bank and both of us are arrested I should bear a greater penalty than he because of my greater responsibility in the common predicament.

Except in the rarest cases the predicament of pregnancy is owing to free and conscious choices that the mother made in having sexual relations, while the child’s predicament is owing to no choice of his or her own. Therefore in the great majority of the cases it is just to require the mother to bear the weight of her greater responsibility in the predicament and not require the ultimate price of the child who bore no responsibility for the predicament at all.

 

3. Justice proceeds on the assumption that a person may not coerce harm on another person by threatening voluntary harm on themselves. For example, you commit a grave injustice if you threaten suicide in order to coerce someone to commit adultery with you. The threat of women to risk harm to themselves with unsafe abortions, if we will not sanction the legal killing of their children, is an unjust coercion of harm—ultimate harm—onto another person, the unborn child.

 

Conclusion: Since the right of an unborn child to life is greater than the right of a woman to use abortion as a means of birth control, and since the woman’s right to be free from pregnancy is not as great as the unborn’s right to be free from life-threatening violence, therefore, a law that reverses the order of these rights is unjust in the extreme and those who support it have innocent blood on their hands.

 

How then shall we live?

 

Earnestly,

 

Pastor John

 

ETA Of course a "child" (born or unborn) is not a "predicament". John Piper is calling the situation when a woman doesn't want to give birth to the child already alive inside of her "a predicament".

 

:iagree:

 

Thank you for posting this. Very well said indeed.

[lionfamily1999]

That's one of the things that keeps me voting pro-choice. I have absolutely no moral qualms with birth control pills, the morning after pill, or IUDs.

I doubt ending abortion would infringe upon the pill, that was legal before abortion.

 

There's a lot of support for the morning after pill, too and most pro-life people I know do see it as a better alternative.

 

As far as IUDs go, I don't see them being affected by abortion either. It's considered birth control. I won't use one, because the way it works doesn't mesh well with me.

 

IOW, with the possible exception of the morning after pill, I don't see where abortion and these things fit together, or why they would lead you to vote pro-choice (if these are your only reasons).

[Melinda in VT]

I doubt ending abortion would infringe upon the pill, that was legal before abortion.

 

There's a lot of support for the morning after pill, too and most pro-life people I know do see it as a better alternative.

 

As far as IUDs go, I don't see them being affected by abortion either. It's considered birth control. I won't use one, because the way it works doesn't mesh well with me.

 

IOW, with the possible exception of the morning after pill, I don't see where abortion and these things fit together, or why they would lead you to vote pro-choice (if these are your only reasons).

 

I have seen pro-life candidates and groups who lobby for the elimination of all of these.

 

Those aren't my only concerns, but they are big ones for me. (I would like abortion to remain legal for women who are carrying fetuses with a condition that is incompatible for life, for example.)

 

Right now I'm in the safe, legal, and rare camp.

[lionfamily1999]

Ah.

 

Just fyi, not all pro-life people are anti-everything. Some of us do see birth control as important.

[Marylou]

My reasons for this are biased and personal. Both of my parents were murdered, and the person/persons that violently murdered them are out and about living free and well in society. They could be your neighbors, the roofer that spent a week working at your house, the Best Buy worker that helped you carry the computer to your car, your kids co-worker at a local restaurant...

 

:grouphug: I am so very sorry for your loss.

 

I can relate to murder in another way--my only brother took his own life (on my birthday, 8 years ago). Murder is so heinous because out of all God's creation, only humans are made in His image, (a topic for a different thread, perhaps).

 

I pray that God will comfort you in your grief.

 

Keep searching for the truth about abortion; God will reward you with the truth if you continue to seek for it.

 

Thank you for your part in this discussion.

Edited July 21, 2009 by dmmosher

[sleepymommy]

Thanks for the 'hugs'. It just bothers me that there are sites that one can go to to find out if there is a sex offender in the neighborhood and where they work, but not one (that I know of) to find out if there's anyone with a history of murder.

 

 

I have seen pro-life candidates and groups who lobby for the elimination of all of these.

 

Those aren't my only concerns, but they are big ones for me. (I would like abortion to remain legal for women who are carrying fetuses with a condition that is incompatible for life, for example.)

 

Right now I'm in the safe, legal, and rare camp.

 

These are some of the same thoughts I have. Even about aborting after there is an established heartbeat to some extent. See I don't know where I would draw the line. I don't think any doctor that is against abortion should be forced to have to perform it, though he should be able to refer the patient to someone else. But I also don't think that a prescription for birth control should be withheld if the doctor is anti-birth control. Or that a pharmacist should refuse to fill a morning after pill prescription b/c he/she doesn't believe in it's use.

 

These are some of the things that would worry me with anti-abortion legislation.

 

(BTW,I don't think a doc should be forced to lethally inject a death row inmate if he does not believe in the death penalty, but should be able to refer someone else.)

[Impish]

When I was being admitted to give birth to my last child, the form filled out stated I'd had an abortion in March 2003. I freaked. I certainly had NOT, thank you very much. The nurse explained to me, that according to medical terms, the surgery I'd had for an ectopic pregnancy in March 2003 was considered an abortion.

 

I was stunned, shocked, and in tears. My dh and I had wanted that baby so badly. Initially, I'd been told that I was having a miscarriage. When I went to the ER a week later, due to continued bleeding, they found my cervix was closed...I was still pregnant! I attempted to call my dh who was on a business trip with his boss, overjoyed.

 

An ultrasound a few hours later showed that I was indeed 8 wks or so pregnant...and baby was in my left fallopian tube. I ended up being treated for shock after the resident explained that I had to have surgery because the baby was too big, and had a heartbeat.

 

By the time my dh finally got to the hospital (his boss had broken all speed limits to get him there ASAP...a 3 hr drive took less than 2) I was in full fledged panic. I didn't want the surgery. Our baby had a heartbeat.

 

The surgeon came in, explaining everything...that I would most certainly hemmorage and likely die if I didn't have the surgery...that 8 wks was unheard of in ectopic pregnancy not to have ruptured already, and the rupture would occur, and due to the size of the baby, I would probably hemmorage and die before they could get me to the hospital.

 

I watched my husband slide to the ground, white green in colour. (My dh is Metis, and his normal skin tone is that of First Nations people...very tanned) I agreed to the surgery. I had children at home, and there was no way that the baby I was carrying could survive, and not having the surgery would only ensure my death as well.

 

Still, my dh had to pin me to the bed while we waited to be taken to the OR. I was attempting to convince him that I could remove the IV and leave, all would be ok...He insisted on climbing on to the bed with me and cuddling...his way of pinning me into the bed until they came to take me for surgery.

 

I'll never forget the nurse in the OR asking me in this jolly Mr. Rogers voice, "So, would you like to tell us what brings you here today?" and my answer, "I'm here because the baby my husband and I have wanted so badly has turned into a ticking *explitive* time bomb!" and dissolving into hysterics so bad that it took longer than normal for them to knock me out. I was told later that another hour, and I would have died. The tube had already begun to tear.

 

According to the medical community, I've had an abortion. To some staunch pro-lifers, I've had an abortion. And that is why I cannot ever call myself a pro-lifer. That no distinction is made for some btwn an ectopic surgery and abortion as birth control...I'll always be pro-choice. I had no choice in having the surgery...only the illusion of one. I could have chosen to die with my baby. That was the only choice I really had. I still mourn that child, and think of him or her at times, especially my due date, I think of how old they would have been, what they would be doing now.

 

To be told that I'd had an abortion...rips that wound wide open.

[astrid]

Thank you for sharing your views, and having the courage to do so.

 

Peace,

Astrid (vehemently pro-choice for the same reasons you are)

[swimmermom3]

I understand that there are always personal reasons behind our philosophy, but if you are intent on applying your beliefs, then you need to rethink your statements on why you believe one thing should be done because of X, but believe we should NOT do another similar thing because of X.

 

Okay Peek a Boo, you are good at this kind of analysis. So if you could walk me through what I have taken away from this thread and help me feel comfortable voting Pro-life, I'd appreciate it.

 

First, abortion is murder (according to the majority here) based on Biblical and personal beliefs. Therefor, it should be illegal as any other form of murder is in our society. So, let's say we've passed that law. All women must carry every pregnancy to term regardless of health, cause, (rape, incest,) age, emotional stability and status of fetus. If the woman feels that she is unable to do this and attempts an abortion, she will be sent to jail. There can be no exceptions of any kind because abortion is murder and that is an undeniable TRUTH.

 

So we have a woman who is unwillingly pregnant. She has had her uncontrolled fling in the sheets and must now bear the consequences. It is assumed that there is nothing (lack of education, fear, shame, a controlling parent, partner or abuser, lack of access to a computer) that would keep her from doing a Google search to find private help.

 

There would be no government help for this theoretical woman because that would involve taxpayer dollars and none of us have a responsibility, moral or otherwise for her or the child. It was not our fling in the sheets. The only use of taxpayer dollars would be for jailing noncompliers.

 

If she is fortunate and finds the wonderful and caring help that so many of you have described, all should be well. There should be no problem finding 1.37 million families per year for adoption regardless of race, or physical challenges such as fetal alcohol syndrome. The woman will receive everything that is needed through the kindness of strangers.

 

If she is not in an area where such help is readily accessible then she will just have to live with the consequences. The baby has a right to be born but it does not have a right to prenatal care, adequate food, shelter or health care once it is born, especially if it is the product of a careless night of passion outside of marriage. We have the moral obligation as a government to outlaw abortion. That is where our responsibility stops. Not one tax-payer dollar must be spent on those 1.37 million pregnancies.

 

Men have very little part in this process and almost no responsibility.

 

This summary is what I have taken away from this thread. It's a compilation of what I understood. It is not a statement of my beliefs.

 

I struggle with the number of abortions -the potential lost. But I could never tell someone in a situation like Impish described that they had to have the baby. Never.

[Impish]

 

I struggle with the number of abortions -the potential lost. But I could never tell someone in a situation like Impish described that they had to have the baby. Never.

Thats just the thing...there would have been no baby, just death for both of us. I've actually had someone tell me that I should have had more faith in God, and gone home. :crying:

[lionfamily1999]

Thats just the thing...there would have been no baby, just death for both of us. I've actually had someone tell me that I should have had more faith in God, and gone home. :crying:

In a case like yours, Impish, most pro-life people would have agreed it constituted a medical emergency. There was nothing you could have done to change it. I'm sorry for what happened.

[babysparkler]

In a case like yours, Impish, most pro-life people would have agreed it constituted a medical emergency. There was nothing you could have done to change it. I'm sorry for what happened.

 

:iagree: :grouphug:

[phathui5]

I disagree.

 

Okay Peek a Boo, you are good at this kind of analysis. So if you could walk me through what I have taken away from this thread and help me feel comfortable voting Pro-life, I'd appreciate it.

 

First, abortion is murder (according to the majority here) based on Biblical and personal beliefs. Therefor, it should be illegal as any other form of murder is in our society. So, let's say we've passed that law. All women must carry every pregnancy to term regardless of health, cause, (rape, incest,) age, emotional stability and status of fetus. If the woman feels that she is unable to do this and attempts an abortion, she will be sent to jail.** Let's compromise and say that we'll just send the actual abortion providers to jail. Unless the woman is trying to perform it on herself. I suppose that makes it more complicated. **There can be no exceptions of any kind because abortion is murder and that is an undeniable TRUTH.

 

So we have a woman who is unwillingly pregnant. ** Unwillingly pregnant like raped? Or like had sex and forgot the birth control? Because everyone knows that sex = pregnancy. That tends to be how it happens. **She has had her uncontrolled fling in the sheets and must now bear the consequences. It is assumed that there is nothing (lack of education, fear, shame, a controlling parent, partner or abuser, lack of access to a computer) that would keep her from doing a Google search to find private help. ** Let's not use fear and shame as excuses to not ask for help. I've been uncomfortable and had to ask for help anyway, because it had to be done **

 

There would be no government help for this theoretical woman because that would involve taxpayer dollars and none of us have a responsibility, moral or otherwise for her or the child. It was not our fling in the sheets. The only use of taxpayer dollars would be for jailing noncompliers. ** There already is government help for people with unplanned (or planned) pregnancies who need help. Making abortion illegal wouldn't reduce the help available. **

 

If she is fortunate and finds the wonderful and caring help that so many of you have described, all should be well. There should be no problem finding 1.37 million families per year for adoption regardless of race, or physical challenges such as fetal alcohol syndrome. ** There are long waiting lists of people who want to adopt and are waiting for a child. Additionally, I've talked to families who want to adopt, but the cost of the legal fees makes it prohibitive. Perhaps if it was less complicated, more families would be available. **The woman will receive everything that is needed through the kindness of strangers.

 

If she is not in an area where such help is readily accessible then she will just have to live with the consequences. The baby has a right to be born but it does not have a right to prenatal care, adequate food, shelter or health care once it is born, especially if it is the product of a careless night of passion outside of marriage. We have the moral obligation as a government to outlaw abortion. That is where our responsibility stops. Not one tax-payer dollar must be spent on those 1.37 million pregnancies.

 

Men have very little part in this process and almost no responsibility. **At the present time, men have no choice when a woman decides to abort their unborn child. Before marrying my sister, my brother in law was with a women, she became pregnant and didn't want the baby. He offered to take care of it, she wouldn't have had to do anything after the birth, no child support, etc. She aborted anyway. He had no choice to keep his child**

 

This summary is what I have taken away from this thread. It's a compilation of what I understood. It is not a statement of my beliefs.

 

I struggle with the number of abortions -the potential lost. But I could never tell someone in a situation like Impish described that they had to have the baby. Never.

[Greta]

I ask this question because I have had conversations with people who are opposed to abortions AND financial aid to unwed mothers.

Don't these people NEED foodstamps to keep their kids fed?

Far too often the unborn children are a priority but once they are born they are forgotten.

 

I am pro-life and I am very liberal. I support (vote for candidates who support) programs like food stamps, WIC, etc., and I am fervently in favor of public health care because I see all of these things as vital for enabling women to choose life. I also donate money to some pro-life organizations like Feminists for Life and Democrats for Life. I am looking into the possibility of supporting a CPC, because I really like the idea of more directly helping women who are in that situation, but so far I have only found ones that advocate abstinence only education. This is uncomfortable for me, because I do not see sex outside of marriage as a "sin", and I have very serious doubts about the ability of abstinence only education to prevent unwanted pregnancies. So I haven't entirely decided what to do in that regard. If anyone knows of CPC's which are not abstinence-only, I would appreciate that information.

[phathui5]

So I haven't entirely decided what to do in that regard. If anyone knows of CPC's which are not abstinence-only, I would appreciate that information.

 

Unfortunately (and I'm saying this as a religious person, so I can knock it), most of them are very religious and won't condone it. It would be nice if someone would start one that provides conception prevention and help if you are pregnant or parenting.

[Greta]

If you believe that abortion is a neutral choice and if you vote pro-choice, what do you do to help the women who are emotionally and psychologically damaged by abortion?

 

I think this is a valid question, and as someone who was on the pro-choice side of things for many years, I can say that in my experience the answer is that you deny that such women exist, or at least that they exist in any significant numbers. This is my biggest complaint about the pro-choice side of the debate: there is no acknowledgment that abortion is a very unnatural act which goes against a woman's instincts to protect and nurture her children, and that as such, it is not just possible but LIKELY to cause her psychological and emotional harm. And that's not even touching on all the physical harm caused by abortion which also gets ignored, denied, and swept under the rug.

[Greta]

It would be nice if someone would start one that provides conception prevention and help if you are pregnant or parenting.

 

(emphasis added by me)

 

Yes, it would! But it looks like it may be left to you and me to do it! :001_smile:

[Marylou]

So I haven't entirely decided what to do in that regard. If anyone knows of CPC's which are not abstinence-only, I would appreciate that information.

 

Greta, I really think this is a non-issue. Most of the CPC centers I know do not make the woman take a quiz before they give her the help she needs. #1) Have you been here before? #2) Did you listen to our "Abstinence Message" #3) Did you agree with our "Abstinence Message?"

 

From what I've seen, a woman can be pregnant with her first or her tenth child and she will receive the same help regardless. What can the harm be to offer an abstinence talk? Especially if she's back a third or fourth time? Wouldn't this be precisely the "talk" she needs to hear? Whatever else she's doing isn't working.

[Greta]

Greta, I really think this is a non-issue. Most of the CPC centers I know do not make the woman take a quiz before they give her the help she needs. #1) Have you been here before? #2) Did you listen to our "Abstinence Message" #3) Did you agree with our "Abstinence Message?"

 

From what I've seen, a woman can be pregnant with her first or her tenth child and she will receive the same help regardless. What can the harm be to offer an abstinence talk? Especially if she's back a third or fourth time? Wouldn't this be precisely the "talk" she needs to hear? Whatever else she's doing isn't working.

 

Thanks, I will definitely consider what you've pointed out. I think I need to learn more about precisely what CPC's do, and maybe then I can make a choice I would feel confident about.

[Peek a Boo]

To be told that I'd had an abortion...rips that wound wide open.

 

This is why i get very angry when the pro-life supporters refuse to explain medical terms.

 

However, it's also another reminder of why it is soooo important to understand the terminology for ourselves.

 

MOST pro-life people agree that a tubal pg is beyond saving.

MOST pro-choice people wouldn't have an abortion.

 

But there are always those extreme few that would let a mother die, and there are always those extreme few that proudly use abortion as birth control.

 

I don't base my decision on what other people do or say, but on what i have learned is right.

[Peek a Boo]

Okay Peek a Boo, you are good at this kind of analysis. So if you could walk me through what I have taken away from this thread and help me feel comfortable voting Pro-life, I'd appreciate it.

 

First, abortion is murder (according to the majority here) based on Biblical and personal beliefs. Therefor, it should be illegal as any other form of murder is in our society. So, let's say we've passed that law. All women must carry every pregnancy to term regardless of health, cause, (rape, incest,) age, emotional stability and status of fetus. If the woman feels that she is unable to do this and attempts an abortion, she will be sent to jail. There can be no exceptions of any kind because abortion is murder and that is an undeniable TRUTH.

 

So we have a woman who is unwillingly pregnant. She has had her uncontrolled fling in the sheets and must now bear the consequences. It is assumed that there is nothing (lack of education, fear, shame, a controlling parent, partner or abuser, lack of access to a computer) that would keep her from doing a Google search to find private help.

 

There would be no government help for this theoretical woman because that would involve taxpayer dollars and none of us have a responsibility, moral or otherwise for her or the child. It was not our fling in the sheets. The only use of taxpayer dollars would be for jailing noncompliers.

 

If she is fortunate and finds the wonderful and caring help that so many of you have described, all should be well. There should be no problem finding 1.37 million families per year for adoption regardless of race, or physical challenges such as fetal alcohol syndrome. The woman will receive everything that is needed through the kindness of strangers.

 

If she is not in an area where such help is readily accessible then she will just have to live with the consequences. The baby has a right to be born but it does not have a right to prenatal care, adequate food, shelter or health care once it is born, especially if it is the product of a careless night of passion outside of marriage. We have the moral obligation as a government to outlaw abortion. That is where our responsibility stops. Not one tax-payer dollar must be spent on those 1.37 million pregnancies.

 

Men have very little part in this process and almost no responsibility.

 

This summary is what I have taken away from this thread. It's a compilation of what I understood. It is not a statement of my beliefs.

 

I struggle with the number of abortions -the potential lost. But I could never tell someone in a situation like Impish described that they had to have the baby. Never.

 

phathui5 already addressed stuff pretty well, but I'll add a link to the ectogenesis thread where I went more in depth about what might constitute a legal abortion [legal removal].

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53976&highlight=ectogenesis

[Testimony]

For me personally, I have helped out at Crisis Pregnancy Centers where I live. Many of these services offer care and services to unwed teenagers, etc. I have heard some of the programs that I support, that they are aggressive in talking the girls into giving up their child for adoption. I don't know for sure if that is true. I have never seen it with the programs that I support, but here are a few things that I have look into that make it difficult:

 

A home for unwed teenagers to live: It is difficult because the laws in my state make that difficult. There are programs, but they are few and far between because our government has restricted housing for these types of homes in the state I live in.

 

The reason I am aware of some of the laws is I use to work for a Child Protective Services. Many pro-life programs cannot get support and help as easily as pro-choice program can. It is harder to get government funding for a pro-life program than a pro-choice. I worked for the government and I know.

 

When I worked for the government, I did help a lot of girls get help and support. That was when I worked for the government. After I left, I have helped out my local Crisis Pregnancy Center. I have donated clothes, furniture, and a whole ton of food to one girl. That was great. Since I have had children, I have not been as involved as I should. I feel badly about that because I really enjoyed helping the girls.

 

I think that once my sons are teenagers, I would like to do that again. This post help remind me about that again. It was so neat to know that I was helping to not only save baby's life, but make an impact on the teenage mom as well.

 

So, thank you for the post!

 

Sincerely,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[PineFarmMom]

nm

Edited July 23, 2009 by Texas T

[Blessedfamily]

When I was being admitted to give birth to my last child, the form filled out stated I'd had an abortion in March 2003. I freaked. I certainly had NOT, thank you very much. The nurse explained to me, that according to medical terms, the surgery I'd had for an ectopic pregnancy in March 2003 was considered an abortion.

........

 

According to the medical community, I've had an abortion. To some staunch pro-lifers, I've had an abortion. And that is why I cannot ever call myself a pro-lifer. That no distinction is made for some btwn an ectopic surgery and abortion as birth control...I'll always be pro-choice. ......

 

To be told that I'd had an abortion...rips that wound wide open.

 

This is why i get very angry when the pro-life supporters refuse to explain medical terms.

 

However, it's also another reminder of why it is soooo important to understand the terminology for ourselves.

 

....

 

 

Impish,

 

Even if you had had just a "regular" miscarriage, that would still medically be considered an abortion. The medical term for a miscarriage is "spontaneous abortion", and I know the commonwealth of VA makes no distinctions among them for birth records, at least.

 

How do I know? Because I had a miscarriage very early that didn't even need a D&C. It expelled at 6 weeks, according to ultrasound. Later, when I had dd#1 the hospital gave me a birth cert. form to fill out that asked how many pregnancies and how many live births I'd had . When I put 2 pregnancies and 1 birth, the nurse said ANY miscarriage is an abortion, and would be recorded as such with the state. I got upset(I'm pro-life), and they had to call the vital statistics administrator up to my room.

 

She said she has been on her job for umpteen years, and the Commonwealth USED to differentiate between an elective abortion and a spontaneous abortion, but they don't any more. If you've had ANY kind of miscarriage, it's an abortion. PERIOD. She said many women were upset by it, and the only thing she could recommed was to "call Richmond" and try to get things changed back.

 

I'm very sorry for your loss.

 

 

Eta- As I said, this is just concerning birth records. I guess they keep records of "elective abortions" from clinics and such. I don't know.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Blessedfamily
Grammar correction

[lionfamily1999]

Impish,

 

Even if you had had just a "regular" miscarriage, that would still medically be considered an abortion. The medical term for a miscarriage is "spontaneous abortion", and I know the commonwealth of VA makes no distinctions among them for birth records, at least.

 

How do I know? Because I had a miscarriage very early that didn't even need a D&C. It expelled at 6 weeks, according to ultrasound. Later, when I had dd#1 the hospital gave me a birth cert. form to fill out that asked how many pregnancies and how many live births I'd had . When I put 2 pregnancies and 1 birth, the nurse said ANY miscarriage is an abortion, and would be recorded as such with the state. I got upset(I'm pro-life), and they had to call the vital statistics administrator up to my room.

 

She said she has been on her job for umpteen years, and the Commonwealth USED to differentiate between an elective abortion and a spontaneous abortion, but they don't any more. If you've had ANY kind of miscarriage, it's an abortion. PERIOD. She said many women were upset by it, and the only thing she could recommed was to "call Richmond" and try to get things changed back.

 

I'm very sorry for your lost.

 

 

Eta- As I said, this is just concerning birth records. I guess they keep records of "elective abortions" from clinics and such. I don't know.

My cousin had this problem too. She refuses to call her two miscarraiges abortions, but she knows that is how they are reflected in her medical records. What really concerns me is that, imo, it makes it appear there are no physical issues in the past (my cousin's cervix is uncooperative) and even makes it seem (as it did for my cousin's second pregnancy) that any issues that come up arise from a voluntary source. IOW, the reason your present pregnancy is difficult is because of your previous abortions. Well, no it's not. It's because of the SAME issues that caused my previous miscarraiges.

 

:grouphug:

 

I wish I knew WHY they stopped differentiating.

[Marylou]

I don't base my decision on what other people do or say, but on what i have learned is right.

 

My prayer is that what is right and just will eventually prevail.

 

My childrens' jaws drop when they learn that black people were at one time (in general) treated as non-persons, specifically like trash in many parts of the world.

 

I hope things (killing the unborn) change to the point that one day young children will ask in disbelief, "did people really think they were non-persons/equal to trash?"

 

I realize there may never be a time when there are zero abortions being performed. Just like I know there is still racism in many places yet today.

 

But I will not give up hope.

 

And I will assist any woman who needs help with the child growing within her. So help me, God.

Edited July 22, 2009 by dmmosher

[Blessedfamily]

......

 

:grouphug:

 

I wish I knew WHY they stopped differentiating.

 

While I was in the hospital, I kept thinking that I don't want my descendants to look up birth records and find this and say, "Great Great Grandma Yvette had an abortion years ago. Huhhhh???."

 

It would seem hypocritical if they thought what I said and what I did was such a contradiction. That matters to me.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Blessedfamily
My spelling is ATROSHUZ!

[lionfamily1999]

While I was in the hospital, I kept thinking that I don't want my descendants to look up birth records and find this and say, "Great Great Grandma Yvette had an abortion years ago. Huhhhh???."

 

It would seem hypocritical if they thought what I said and what I did was such a contridiction. That matters to me.

It's funny you should say that, because my great-grandmother's sister died from an abortion. Oma used to insist that Ivy had not had an abortion, but had fallen down steps... now I have to wonder.

 

I completely agree with you, now I just wonder who to write and pester.

[Blessedfamily]

It's funny you should say that, because my great-grandmother's sister died from an abortion. Oma used to insist that Ivy had not had an abortion, but had fallen down steps... now I have to wonder.

 

I completely agree with you, now I just wonder who to write and pester.

 

The hospital vital statistics administrator probably said to call Richmond just to get me to sign the form so she could do her job. Poor lady.

 

When I had DD#2, I just refused to answer the question on the sheet. It made me angry, even the 2nd time around. Maybe the hospital just filled it in themselves from previous info, I don't know.

[lionfamily1999]

I meant, do I call Robb Whitmen (or whatever his name is), the legislature, who? The more I think about this the more irritated I get. I know! I'll call my grandmother, she'll know who to bug :)

[Blessedfamily]

I meant, do I call Robb Whitmen (or whatever his name is), the legislature, who? The more I think about this the more irritated I get. I know! I'll call my grandmother, she'll know who to bug :)

 

:lol: I don't who to call in Richmond. They've goofed up quite a few things lately and had a big security breech, so they probably have their phones off the hook right now.

[lionfamily1999]

:lol: I don't who to call in Richmond. They've goofed up quite a few things lately and had a big security breech, so they probably have their phones off the hook right now.

Or, this COULD be an opportunity for them to do something simple that would make some people very happy ;)

 

Lol! I live outside of Colonial Beach, and if you google it, you'll see they've had their phones off the hook for ages now :lol: It's pretty sad when the next town over's so full of problems that the state police REFUSE to investigate.

[Nakia]

My prayer is that what is right and just will eventually prevail.

 

My childrens' jaws drop when they learn that black people were at one time (in general) treated as non-persons, specifically like trash in many parts of the world.

 

I hope things (killing the unborn) change to the point that one day young children will ask in disbelief, "did people really think they were non-persons/equal to trash?"

 

I realize there may never be a time when there are zero abortions being performed. Just like I know there is still racism in many places yet today.

 

But I will not give up hope.

 

And I will assist any woman who needs help with the child growing within her. So help me, God.

 

I could not agree with you more.

[Mama Bear]

Well I am not 100% pro-life but considering that I am raising my Great-niece...I guess you could say my husband, my kids and I all volunteer 24 hours a day.

 

Tap, I think of you and your family often. God bless you all.

[Mama Bear]

If I am against stealing' date=' do I have to personally make restitution to every convenience store that is robbed by a disadvantaged teenager in order to not be considered a hypocrite? If an action is immoral, I may be against it whether I do anything about it or not. I think this is a red herring question designed to get those folks who believe abortion is immoral to be on the defensive. One does not have to be willing to personally raise every victim of child abuse to be against child abuse.[/quote']

 

With respect, you *are* doing something about the immorality of stealing by not contributing to it, by raising your kids to know and do better, and turning someone in if you have info regarding their crime. As well, you do pay for those crimes via higher prices in stores to offset security and theft costs.

 

IMO, moral questions begin to lose pertinence when we distance ourselves from their impact. If we're going to take a position of consequence -- and they are all of consequence to someone -- we must be willing to find or create opportunities to influence what we can.

 

I do not believe that it's appropriate to sell everything for the cause, whatever it may be, thereby losing perspective on the bigger picture that our lives and families are. But if it costs us nothing to maintain that we have a certain principle, then what is that principle worth? Sort of along the lines of "faith without works is dead," I suppose.

 

JMO, YMMV, etc.

[titianmom]

When I think of the Hebrew Midwives in Genesis. ;) I was thiniking of actually shooting someone. Don't know if I'd have the guts to do it unless there was someone else in the house, you know?

 

Sorry off topic here.

 

Kim

 

I wouldn't find this to be a tough call at all. God blessed many people in the Bible' date=' women in particular, who lied to save lives. I'd lie about that with no guilty conscience at all.[/quote']