article: Is a college degree worthless?"

[Kathie in VA]

Interesting article on the costs and value of a college education.

 

http://www.smartmoney.com/Personal-Finance/College-Planning/The-Case-Against-the-College-Degree/

 

I'm not sure he made his argument in the best way, but I do think he might have a point.... (but I'd be too scared to not send a college-able student off to college :eek:

[Sara R]

I like how he assumes that typical stock market return is 8%, even though though the stock market recently saw 12-year lows :deadhorse: I think it will be a loooong time till anyone who was in the stock market for the past 1 1/2 years to see an average 8% (inflation adjusted) on their money.

 

I agree that grade inflation is a huge problem, as are high costs. Student loans can cause huge problems down the line. Still, "degree inflation" is out there as well. So many students have degrees that resumes without degrees listed are not even looked at. My husband was in this position.

 

What to do about it? Go to college more cheaply, and don't go into debt. (I would argue that easy access to student loans increased the cost, much like easy mortgage money led to increased home prices.) Be aware of how much different fields pay. If you can do dual enrollment and get college credit in high school, that would be advantageous, especially if the state pays for dual enrollment before age 18.

[creekland]

Personally my college years were some of the best ones in my life, so I want my boys to go for more than just educational reasons... I also still think it's the best for their future. We aren't really looking at the more expensive colleges, but we are looking at them going for all 4 years even if they get a few credits first.

[4wildberrys]

, but I do think he might have a point.... (but I'd be too scared to not send a college-able student off to college :eek:

 

 

I totally agree with being too scared about not sending our kids off to college if they are able-----especially in the town we live in. Buuut....I know LOTS of people who are more successful and more humble with their success who only have a HS diploma or a GED as compared to a more statusy college degree....including my own dh who runs our own successful business. The one thing is that in my husban'd field of work, they now DO require at the very least an AA, which was not a requirement for dh. So, I think at the very least in today's world and economy an AA is valuable----but then again it depends on the field of study. My brother with a BA in Communications and Film has been unemployed for many years.

[Love2Smile]

my dh never went a single day to college. He put himself thru Police Academy at age 17, has been a cop since he was 18 and is now a Lt. at age 45.

 

He has job security, always has...thanks *bad people* and makes money in the 6 digits.

 

He always says...go into law enforcement or medicine because no matter how bad the economy ever gets there will always be criminals and sick people...job security!

[Murphy101]

well we've decided to hedge both sides of the fence. LOL

we will be testing out as much of college as we can while in high school

I LOVE his idea of a "Knowledge Transcript"!

and learning trades, professional experience via blueprint design, carpentry, electrical....other stuff..

 

dh has gone back to trade school to be an electrician when he grow up - figuring same as previous poster - someone always needs a plumber or an electrician - and he doesn't want to work in tiolets!:D

 

I want my kids to have at least a bachelors degree.

But we're not going to spend 4+ years in a brick and mortar school to get it.

[KAR120C]

What a college degree gets you, more than a possibly higher income, is a wider range of options. All the jobs that interest me require a college degree - not always a specific degree, but something. I could certainly be employed without a degree, and could probably make a perfectly reasonable income (although a lot of the higher paying non-degree jobs require a certain amount of native talent in areas where I have none...), but without a degree I couldn't do what I want to do. That doesn't mean that everyone needs a degree, or that a degree makes any difference to who you are - your character or your work ethic - but I don't see the requirements changing anytime soon for the sorts of jobs I'd like.

 

One other thing... I'm in the interesting position of having "a" degree, but being interested in a job that requires things my degree never covered. So I've gone back to school to pick up a couple extra credits, and I'm independently studying for certification exams. My specific degree doesn't contribute a thing to what I want to do. It just checks that "has a degree" box. I could get a second degree that would be more closely related, but having weighed the costs and time required, and what I would get for it, so far it's looking better to rely on my old B.A. and just add classes. So I definitely see the author's point... but in considering what my DS is interested in, I'm not second-guessing any of our plans for him to go to college. Not for the income, but because his interests lean toward those jobs that will almost certainly require a degree. So while I think it's an interesting argument, for practical purposes it really doesn't change anything. There is a set of jobs that require degrees, and if you want one of them you need to go to college.

[Garga]

Here's my very unscientific, unproven, personal opinion about college degrees:

 

Most of what you learn in college you can learn through life or on the job.

 

I didn't go to college after high school. Instead, I went right to work. Finally, in my early 30's, I started taking some college classes. Now, it was just first year stuff, but honestly just about everything I learned in the classes, I already knew.

 

I already knew how to write a paper, because on my job I had to write detailed training materials. (eng 101)

 

I already knew how to sort through and pick apart good literature, because I read a lot in my spare time. (eng 102)

 

I already knew how to handle group activities, because I worked on teams at work. (class on group dynamics)

 

I already knew what they taught in sociology, because I lived it in life and at work. (sociology)

 

Ok--those were the 4 classes I've taken so far. There was almost nothing new that I learned.

 

Personally, I think that if person A got a job right out of high school and received on the job training, while person B went to college, that person A would have skills more valuable to employers than person B.

 

This theory doesn't work for highly specialized degrees, like law or medicine. But for a general degree--yeah. I think a lot of it is just life experience and observation boiled down into 4 years and deliberately taught, instead of picked up by oneself.

 

Of course, no one else really agrees with me--or at least employers don't, so I'm sending my kids off to college when they're old enough. It opens doors. (But I'm not convinced a college educated person really has anything on anyone else who's lived a few years on their own holding down a job.)

 

That just my personal opinion!

[Gwen in VA]

Why do people get Ph.D.'s?

 

They don't work for several years because the extra degree increases their earning potential -- the several years' worth of income lost while getting the degree is normally not compensated for by a significantly higher income afterwards.

 

They don't work for several years to increase their employability -- Ph.D.'s can easily find themselves overqualified and overspecialized.

 

So why DO people work for several years to get a degree that probably won't help their lifetime earnings or their ease of employability?

 

1) They want to do work that requires a Ph.D. They want to do research. They want to be a professor. They want to join a think tank. They want to on the cutting edge of their field.

 

2) They are just plain curious. They want to know more about their field in a way that is not possible just by reading on a sofa in their living room. They want to learn how to approach problems. They want to do hands-on work under a mentor, work that is not possible just by studying books in the field.

 

I think the same reasons can be applied to a Bachelor's degree. For some folks, college isn't a matter of merely growing the future income or of avoiding growing up; it's a matter of

 

-- getting the required degree for their future career or

-- a matter of scratching their intellectual itch

-- increasing their options

 

I know that not all colleges provide the cure for an intellectual itch, and folks who go to college for that reason need to choose carefully. Some college DO help a student grow intellectually. The fact that not ALL colleges provide the cure for an intellectual itch does not mean that NO colleges provide it! It merely means caveat emptor -- the parents and student need to be wise when choosing a college!

[LoriM]

I agree entirely...college educations aren't "worthless" but certainly his point is well-made about graduating debt-free, and beginning to invest regularly as young as possible. The money that rides along invested and untouched the longest, wins! :)

 

While an AA in CC (grin) and local-university BA has worked for our dd, my DH and I constantly look at each other and say, "I cannot wait until this child gets a real job and works for a while!" She has had a very cossetted and comfortable time of life to fall in love with learning. I am so very grateful we had the ability to give her that "gentle landing" into life. But she is about to grow up, and I can't wait to see what she makes of herself.

 

That happens almost magically to young people in their 20s, whether in college, or working and living independently, or marrying young and starting a family. It's *normal* and good.

[TravelingChris]

GIven how our stock market and other investments are in bad shape now, I don't think the advice holds true. I think it all depends on what you want from life, though. What I wanted was more knowledge. I don't work and probably won't work full time ever again. I have a BA, MS, and the great all but dissertation. On the other hand, my husband has his PhD and it certainly has helped him in his military career and will be helping him make very good money when he retires. So he went from being the son of a milk man and bus driver and now we live in a fabulous neighborhood where everyone is succesful and I suspect we have a extraordinary percentage of advanced degreed people here. But that is just one of the advantages. Really what he wants and what I want is learning. WE are both lifetime learners and that was our goal initially. (I didn't do my graduate degrees with thinking I wouldn't work, but it turned out that way when I got chronic illness and we kept moving).

[Janet in WA]

What a college degree gets you, more than a possibly higher income, is a wider range of options. All the jobs that interest me require a college degree - not always a specific degree, but something. I could certainly be employed without a degree, and could probably make a perfectly reasonable income (although a lot of the higher paying non-degree jobs require a certain amount of native talent in areas where I have none...), but without a degree I couldn't do what I want to do. That doesn't mean that everyone needs a degree, or that a degree makes any difference to who you are - your character or your work ethic - but I don't see the requirements changing anytime soon for the sorts of jobs I'd like.

 

One other thing... I'm in the interesting position of having "a" degree, but being interested in a job that requires things my degree never covered. So I've gone back to school to pick up a couple extra credits, and I'm independently studying for certification exams. My specific degree doesn't contribute a thing to what I want to do. It just checks that "has a degree" box. I could get a second degree that would be more closely related, but having weighed the costs and time required, and what I would get for it, so far it's looking better to rely on my old B.A. and just add classes. So I definitely see the author's point... but in considering what my DS is interested in, I'm not second-guessing any of our plans for him to go to college. Not for the income, but because his interests lean toward those jobs that will almost certainly require a degree. So while I think it's an interesting argument, for practical purposes it really doesn't change anything. There is a set of jobs that require degrees, and if you want one of them you need to go to college.

What she said.

[Caroline4kids]

I wish you could get a college degree in self-education. Digesting Charlotte Mason's 6 volume series and lumbering through thousands of curriculum manuals should count for something!:)

[laughing lioness]

I find this diussion interesting for a number of reasons. People being "scared" of not sending their kids to school is an interesting concept. For one, it's assumed that the parents are doing the sending, the now adult child is passively living out the role that is expected. There has also been a lot of discussion about "gap-years" and folks inability to afford health insurance during that time so (paraphrasing) "while they'd like to do that, it's just not financially feasible."

I think this represents living reactively instead of proactivly. My sisters and I were expected to go to college- my parents paid for it all- private schools. We could have cared less about being there, partied hard, got average grades, were like the majority of kids around us- directionless, immature and without passion.

Frankly, I want and expect more from my kids. If our kids want to go to college they need to figure out a way to pay for it. If they don't want to go to college they are welcome to stay here as long as they contribute like adults to the household. Our oldest went last fall as a 21 yo freshman, worked 20 + a week to pay for room and board, will have 50 credits done by August, made the Deans list and will finish a degree that typically takes 5 years done in 3. She also raised $1700 and is in Romania for a part of the summer.

The 3 years between high school graduation and going to college were spent traveling abroad, working, tutoring. We did not financially support her travel, rather she contributed to the home financially (as well as in other ways) during that time.

When fear drives us options shrivel up. When we live with the expectation that there is more out there than we can imagine, really, really cool experiences surface.

My 18 yo is not going to college in the fall. Maybe next year if she can work out a good financial aid deal. IN the meantime she plans to work with a gifted artist and go to Isreal. She had considered Cosmetology school as a real option but the chemicals and her allergies were not a winning combo.

Lest you think we are not geared toward higher ed- my dh has 2 master's degrees and a Ph.D. He is one of the most educated men I know. The problem is that in order to make "serious" money with his degree he would either have to 1) kill himself working (tried that- he almost succeeded) 2) ignore his family (tried that, too- left the military over it) 3) be a "professional" instead of a man of integrity, meaning he puts himself out there rather than just "delivering services" (just can't do it- he is too faith driven). I also have 2 master's degrees but we've made the choice to raise our kids and educate them rather than make the kind of money we easily could if our priorities are different.

Also, higher ed is meaning less and less given some things that are happening culturally. If my dh, with 3 advanced degrees from prestigous schools and 25+ years of experience applies to a job that a man of color or a woman applies to- he will.not.be.offered.the.job. EOE is alive and well and shutting out talented people.

Also, my dh has been teaching on and off for years and he is increasingly appalled at the lack of basic ability college students have now (someone posted last year about the costs most colleges are spending on remidiating their own students). A graduate student nearing graduation told my dh last year that he was the first prof that ever required APA format (something they'll HAVE to use professionally if they are going to make it). Also, a college student told my dh that he learned more writing skills in his class (intro to psych) than he had ever.learned.before.

I think that well-educated people will have a good shot at certain jobs regardless of degrees given the increased level of dumbing down we are seeing as a society (see 2 million minutes website). I don't, in any way, think that a college degree is a ticket to anywhere (except in specialized cases such a medicine or professions that require licensing).

 

I hope this doens't come off as a big rant or a long tirade- I'm kinda still in primary process about it all- but I think that we need to start looking at education proactively -that's what having a well-educated mind is all about. This can apply to all of life- not just K-12 -kiwm?

Edited June 22, 2009 by laughing lioness
clarification

[Jane in NC]

I had hesitated to post in this thread because I admittedly do not understand the premise: why must "value" or "worth" be tied to money?

 

My undergraduate college education was of great value to me because of what I learned. I skipped a year of high school and landed at an LAC anxious to become educated. Perhaps I was (and am) naive: education is about education, not about job training.

 

Through contacts that I made in Junior Achievement while in high school, I had a professional job (first part time, later full time--all while in undergrad) in which I could have continued without a degree. My goal was not to work in that field, but I always knew that I had a fall back position.

 

There is no way that I could have learned on my own what I learned in college classrooms. Yes, anyone can read John Donne, but a good English professor makes John Donne come alive. Does enjoying John Donne guarantee higher wages? Of course not--which brings us back to my little problem with attaching $$$$ to things to determine their worth.

 

My master's degree in mathematics is something that I could never have done via self education. With that degree, I can (and have) earned a comfortable salary. People without my degree can make more money, say, selling real estate (or could before the crash) but I would not want their job. I could not be happy selling real estate, but I am very happy teaching mathematics. There is lot to be said about being happy, in my opinion. And for me, money does not equate to happiness.

 

There is a great variety in the college experience not only because of colleges or degree programs within colleges, but because of what students bring to the classroom. Some eighteen year olds simply do not bring passions to colleges or young adulthood; others cannot milk enough from the experience. Blanket statements that college is or is not the way to go seem inappropriate. College is the path for some, not for others. Community college tech training is the path for some, not for others. Gap years are the path for some, not for others. The danger, I think, is in saying that all kids must march in locked step.

 

It is true that many students only attend Rah Rah University because of Dad or Grandma who have pressured the kid into going to Rah Rah. Family expectation nudges some students into schools without the students considering why they are there. Some parents, as Laughing Lioness said, fear letting kids determine their own options. There are parents who not only lead their students to specific schools but specific programs. "Kid, you will be an engineer. English Lit is not an option."

 

The article has the requisite section on Harvard. I suppose that many still consider Harvard to be the be all and end all of American education, but I do not. Sure, a Harvard or Ivy League degree can open doors, but so can lots of other degrees and experiences. With that the author and I can agree.

 

Off the soapbox.

Jane

[Nan in Mass]

Perhaps I shouldn't. I've had a child decide not to go to college. I grieved for how much I thought he would be missing. And I rejoiced when he changed his mind a few years later. It had nothing to do with money; he would have made plenty of money had he stuck to his original non-college plan. It had nothing to do with liking one's job; he was well-suited to his original choice and found it challenging and satisfying. The college program he entered is a very job-oriented one, but it still has many of those elements that I was mourning. He has grown this last year in ways that he didn't when he was working. (I am a bit sad that my middle one isn't going to a college with more challenging liberal arts classes, though. We're trying to fill out their education by encouraging travel and reading.) Now I understand why my father told me that he wanted me to have two years of college; then, if I was miserable, I could quit. He said he wanted me "to know what college was all about". My Greek prof said something similar when I told him I was engaged, wanted to have children and stay home with them, and didn't know if I was ever going to use my education. He told me firmly, "But you have a right to train your mind." I was feeling defensive because by then I had run into a number of people who couldn't see why I was working so hard if not for a long career in my field. In my own family, it was taken for granted that I was entitled to a college education and would find one useful whether I intended to use it to make money or not. The author seems to be overlooking stay-at-home-mums. I hope we aren't going back to the time when women weren't educated because they didn't need an education to be wives and mothers!

-Nan

[LoriM]

I hope we aren't going back to the time when women weren't educated because they didn't need an education to be wives and mothers!

-Nan

 

I think one of the reasons I've had the luxury to train my mind so diligently as a life-long learner (and attend several universities in the process!) has been precisely because I'm a wife and mother. Hsing has afforded me a "good reason" to read, think and learn (as if I needed one!) alongside my children. Now, I've also taken college courses when I could or when I needed them, and when I haven't been able to be a student in a college course, I've just created my own course and self-taught.

 

But one decided advantage of a stable marriage has been the opportunity to spend time out of the work force, and home setting my own study time. Or lighter-workload jobs, so I could spend my evenings as I wished. Or commuting to class!

 

Anyway, since falling in with this network of hsing moms (and dads) 10 years ago, I never would think that a brick-and-mortar building is the only place that advanced learning can take place. I love living in a college town, and I love working on a university campus (or a school of any kind). I hope my children both pursue advanced degrees...and I hope they have seasons of their lives where they stay home with their babies.

 

I think the original article that started this discussion was merely addressing the lifetime earning potential (and retirement savings) of the two paths in a very general, worst-application-of-statistics sorta way. It is tragic that his main point was to focus on college as a path to a higher wage, and not a higher quality of life. Because I definitely agree with Jane that learning to THINK is the real work of college. Learning who you are, what you believe, what you want out of life, and how you choose to get there...and what beautiful, true and wonderful things you can see along the way. Growing up. Just Growing.

[asta]

I agree with Laughing Lioness and Jane in NC.

 

I really feel that the disconnect occurring in our society is the seemingly huge amount of people (as in, that is my perception) who have stopped viewing college as an opportunity to broaden one's mind, but instead as "job training".

 

I have read numerous posts on HS boards defending the whole "why spend the money to go to college if not to learn a marketable skill/profession" thing. It makes my blood boil. IMO, they are talking about vocational school, and they don't even realize it.

 

I think it is really sad that so many places look down on vocational school. In Europe, very few people (out of the total population) actually go on to University. Most people learn a trade - and learn it WELL. One simply doesn't encounter waiters who are "waiting for their big break"; this IS their big break, and they bust their behind to do a great job. I think this is wonderful. Of course, a society has to value skills for this to work. And, unfortunately, I think US society values the paper diploma more than a honed skill set.

 

/rant.

 

a