TOG- sad for friend, feel guilty

[choirfarm]

update: to Clarify: My friend is VERY softspoken and only wanted to use 2 units this year, which she was able to do anyway. Yes, she could have called .The sadness in my post is for TOG because I think it is such a great curriculum and I'm afraid this going to DE price thing will only make their financial situation worse. She has decided to go back to Sonlight and I think that is part of the reason she doesn't feel the need to ask for a refund. I think she wants to just be done with the whole experiment. I'm giving her my core 3 to use for next year. So I think she will just resell the whole thing whenever she gets it. I wasn't upse at TOG or the customer service. I think if she had called, they would have worked something out. TOG is great that way. I just feel awful for the company itself because I think the problems this year will really affect them down the road.

 

 

 

I feel awful.. I know Tapestry couldn't help it, but I still feel bad. A friend of mine ordered TOG Redesigned 2 in the summer per my recommendation. There was some kind of problem with the printing and then all of the going to DE happened. She is not computer saavy at all.. They sent her units 3 and 4 DE, but she hasn't nor is she going to put them into the computer. She wanted print versions, and I completely understand why TOg couldn't.. But she needs to sell hers to buy stuff for next year and she can't because she won't even get her units 3 and 4 until June!! AACCK.. I feel awful because I was so gung ho and she ordered all of these books and I got about 100 dollars worth of credit with all the stuff she bought... Sigh... Honestly, if I was just now looking at TOG, the De thing would really turn me off. I'm still not sure what I will do about year 4. I may do Sonlight Core 300 instead.. I just don't know. I realize that they couldn't print them, but to buy a curriculum in August and not get it until June. She wouldn't have ordered it if she had KNOWN it would only be digital.

 

Christine

Edited April 24, 2009 by choirfarm

[bkpan]

I am feeling more frustrated by this. I am sorry for your friend. And, it would really baffle me as to why they could not send her the printed copies that she ordered in a timely manner. I certainly think that she should be able to have her money refunded?:confused:

 

What I had not realized until recently is that you cannot resell their DE curriculum?? It really seems as if they have set his up to their advantage. So, you pay almost as much as the printed versions, and then you cannot recoup ANY of the costs?

 

Please tell me if I am misunderstanding their new set-up.

 

Kim

[choirfarm]

I think the costs for what they did just went up so much and then they had financial backing that fell through when the stock market crashed. So they didn't have the money to print any more copies until a certain amount had been pre-ordered. I think she was one of the few that got caught in the middle.

 

As far as paying as much for what they have, I think the problem is that paper and gas and everything went up so much that they are keeping the same profit margin now that they thought they would have. I don't believe they are making money hand over fist or anything. I think they were stuck in a tough spot. They knew they would operate in the red while they redesigned everything and then the financing fell through..

 

Christine

[Oakblossoms]

Did you mean April instead of August?

 

If she uses TOG she won't even use the 3/4 units till 2010. A copy shop will probably print and bind it for her. She just takes the CD's to them and they do the rest. Annoying but it will be done and she can have it bounded or not.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Hausunterricht
typo

[choirfarm]

She spent most of the first semester doing unit 1 and wanted to start unit 2, but I think there was a problem even with that one. So I'm not sure if she did unit 2 this spring or if she just finally dropped it. yes, she could take it and get it bound,but everyone says that costs 30 dollars or more a unit, so that is another 60 on top of what she has already paid and she couldn't resell that version she printed, only the one she will get in the mail.

 

Christine

[Oakblossoms]

I would be upset, too then

[siloam]

I am sorry she has had so many problems. I would feel responsible too, if I were in your shoes.

 

Though do realize that TOG didn't plan this and the alternative was no Tapestry at all. I do have DE and it really isn't that bad. I would prefer it in print, but this is better than nothing.

 

Heather

 

Edited April 23, 2009 by siloam

[Tarheel Heather]

That is crazy! Why can't she get her money back??

 

Does the DE version come on CD Rom? I doubt that it is actually illegal to re-sell it. They may ask you not to sell it, but once you buy something like that, it is yours and you should be able (as far as I know the law) to sell it at will even if they ask you not to.

 

It has to do with something in their end user licensing agreement about not reselling digital media.

 

From Marcia;

What you are buying is a license to use DE software (and content), which then in turn enables you to print copies. To protect copyright holders (since technically you could print thousands of copies) we have to limit the software and its printed copies to the original purchaser.

 

Blessings,

Marcia

 

Also the disc is only useable on one computer. The DE is why we are no longer TOGging.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Tarheel Heather

[LadyAberlin]

Why couldn't TOG send her a print copy when they printed all the pre ordered print copies? Don't they have it where people order print copies and then they wait until there are enough orders to go to print? If your friend ordered a print and got a digital instead, they need to either send her a printed copy or refund the money I think. I would be fuming.

[siloam]

CD's have different copyright law than print media, so if they word it right, they can do this.

 

I know Rosetta Stone already does, they sell a single license to use the product, not the product itself.

 

With TOG DE you have to have the license verified and unlocked before you can use the CD, so you can't just hand it off for someone else to use.

 

Heather

[siloam]

Why couldn't TOG send her a print copy when they printed all the pre ordered print copies? Don't they have it where people order print copies and then they wait until there are enough orders to go to print? If your friend ordered a print and got a digital instead, they need to either send her a printed copy or refund the money I think. I would be fuming.

 

I made the same mistake the first time I posted, but if you re-read it she is going to get a print copy. They JUST went to the printer through, so by the time they finish and ship she won't have it till June.

 

I do wonder if they wouldn't give her a refund, if she returned what she does have, DE CD's and all?

 

Heather

 

[HollyDay]

this is why I did not even consider TOG this year. The program is good - do not misunderstand me. But, the financial questions, printing issues, license agreements, etc, etc, just pushed it over the top. I might add our local TOG co-op is seriously thinking about not doing it next year. Burnout was the reason given by the members. There are other programs out there that are not so expensive and can be resold.

[siloam]

It's unethical.

 

Well it is legal, so it really can't be unethical. But I was disappointed in the price they chose for the DE version, given the fact it can't be re-sold. :001_unsure: The ONLY reason why I got the DE at all is because they were still allowing people who bought used classic versions to upgrade for 50% off and I had some birthday money burning a hole in my pocket. I am not sure it was even worth that much (50% off), but now I have it just in case I change my mind once I start using the discussions.

 

I may never upgrade my classic year 4 because they discontinued the discount for used customers and I don't think I can pay full price. :blink: I am just too cheap. I buy mostly used and rarely pay full price even when I do buy new, so why would I spend triple digests to upgrade something that already works? Maybe not as well, but it does work. Why? Maybe when I have D and R level students I will find a why but right now I can't find one.

 

Heather

 

[profmom]

Has she actually called and talked to TOG about her situation?

[WTMindy]

It's unethical.

 

I would disagree with you on this. According to what I understand, it is NOT TOG alone that is making this decision, but the sources that they are using, like World Book. They are going with the industry standard procedure.

 

I can see why the friend feels frustrated, but at the same time, I don't know that this is the place to vent your frustration. Marcia works hard on her message boards to not talk against other curriculums and I think it is inappropriate to not offer her the same.

 

I think it is fine to disagree with what they are doing, or to be unhappy with the price, but I don't think it is at all fair to say they are unethical.

 

ETA: Not all this is in response to Cadam.

[Mama Lynx]

This is *terrible* customer service.

 

Has your friend called TOG? They should have either busted their behinds to get her a print copy somehow, or they should have refunded her money. This amount of time between when she ordered and when she receives the product is ridiculous.

 

I love the curriculum, but this is *not* good business practice.

[siloam]

Sorry Heather, that's just not true. You can argue that what they did was not unethical. It is only my opinion that what they did was unethical. However to claim something is ethical because it is legal is not logical. There are any number of terrible, unethical things that also happen to be legal. Legal doesn't equal right.

 

Well it is OK to disagree. Though I don't know if we are on the same page. Do you realize she will get the print version and she will be able to sell that?

 

I think it would be unethical if she didn't get a print copy that she could sell, because she bought it under different pretenses. But she is going to get her print copy, just not in a timely fashion (June when she ordered in August-ugh!). I would love to see her go to them and ask for a refund, and see what they say. No matter their refund policy I would think this whole year a special situation, so they might just give her all her money back. First she needs to ask.

 

But I don't find it unethical for them to expect her not to sell the DE they gave her to use in the mean time before they could get the print to her, especially if she hasn't inquired about getting a refund instead. Nor do I think it is unethical to expect those who buy TOG DE going forward to not sell it, because they know what they are agreeing to it ahead of time.

 

Makes sense?

 

I guess I am a little gracious to the company, because the alternative was they simply go out of business, which would have meant fulfilling NO year 2 or 3 orders and giving NO refunds. It really could have been much worse...if they had just walked away... which probably would have been easy to do. :eek: I expect he can make a lot more money as a lawyer than they pull in with TOG.

 

Heather

 

Edited April 23, 2009 by siloam

[Karenciavo]

Your friend is getting unit 3 & 4 yes? I don't understand the problem. When she gets units 3 & 4 in June she can sell her year 2. Am I missing something? IF she needs to sell now maybe she can find someone who is willing to trust her to send on the remaining units. I've seen year plans sell that way in the past.

 

Christiana - Could you please explain what is unethical? Whenever anyone purchases a year plan that is being released incrementally from Lampstand Press they are told that the release dates are tentative. For 5 years Lampstand Press made their deadlines, this year due to the economy they did not. People who ordered TOG in print before the financial problems received both the Digital Edition of TOG and, when enough year plans were ordered, their print edition. People who purchase the Digital Edition know ahead of time that they can not resell the product. So, just what part of the process is unethical?

[mom2jjka]

I found this article to be very interesting regarding the sale and 'licensing agreements' of software.

 

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/05/court-smacks-autodesk-affirms-right-to-sell-used-software.ars

[Mama Lynx]

I forgot to add, before:

 

I recently had a problem with them, with getting an order of mine in a timely manner that worked for me. Once I got to the right people in customer service, they made things right for me. They really don't want to leave people in a lurch. Has your friend called them, emailed customer service? I cannot imagine that something cannot be worked out.

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[mommaduck]

Kind of makes me glad we didn't stick with TOG.

 

Question: if you are only able to use the DE on one computer, what happens when that computer goes kaput and you get a new computer?

[GraceinMD]

Also the disc is only useable on one computer.

 

Well, we use the DE on 3 computers (all I had to do was ask Ray at Lampstand, since we have a Mac, a PC and a laptop, all of which are used for school), and did not have to pay any extra for extra licenses or whatnot. If you buy the download DE, it's just not a problem, as far as I understand from the TOG forums.

 

To the OP: your friend should definitely call Lampstand customer service - they have always bent over backwards to help me when I've had a question. (Talk to Juli!)

[siloam]

My bigger problem with TOG is how everyone seems to want to feel bad for them and excuse all of the upheaval. As I said, I feel sympathy for the people involved. These are not easy choices they have had to make and I see that they had to make do with the situation as it developed. However, it is of their own doing. They printed on credit and now it has come back to bite them.

 

Actually my understanding is they don't print on credit. They had a business partner that promised money to pay for a print run and then stepped out at the last minuet. Because they wouldn't print on credit they had to wait till they had enough orders to pay for the print run free and clear, which now has happened with both year 3 and 2.

 

I did also sympathize with the o/p and admitted that I would feel the same, but you are right that I don't have a huge amount of sympathy for the person in question, if they haven't bothered to get on the phone and ask for some sort of compensation. I would have been on the phone a long time ago and would be buddies by now with the staff (whether they liked it or not). ;)

 

They should have never taken orders for something they didn't have on hand.

Actually they usually do. I don't know what happened with this year 2, that IS odd.

 

With year three through it was not written and people buying it knew it wasn't written or printed yet. It isn't bad business because the people buying it know or should know what they are getting into. That is why people are willing to be gracious. TOG did always say the delivery date might be pushed out, and while it was pushed out they are delivering.

 

Because she wasn't ordering the current year being redesigned, but apparently fell into some other category I think TOG would give her a refund. That is just based on watching threads on the TOG forums where people have had problems/complaints and reading Marcia's responses. They appear very willing to do the right thing given the chance.

 

Given the person in question hasn't asked for a refund (it appears) I think it is premature to judge the company negatively. I seem to remember TOG saying that if people wanted refunds they just had to call in their e-mail letter (yes not print). There is also the possibility that when the person in question ordered year 2 she was aware that there would be a delay in receiving all of it and she ordered anyway, so without knowing if she was aware from day one there would be a delay and knowing that she has asked for a refund and been told no, then yes I am going to side with the company. She has given them no opportunity to make it right. She needs to do that, and could have asked a long time ago.

 

If she asks for a refund and they refuse, I will be changing my tune.

 

 

I disagree will any and all "licensed to use but not actually own" stuff. When you purchase something you should own it. period. In this regard

 

I too absolutely loathe it as well, but I do understand it. I have an extended family member who used to download illegal copies of software, then when it was about 5 years old and ubber cheap he would buy the real thing and claim a clear conscience. :blink: He and others like him are why software is sold as a license now. I don't like it but I do get why. Also as someone else pointed out they partner with other companies that may have required it.

 

TOG specifically has also had huge problems with people using the 50% upgrade and then turning around and reselling or giving away the classic, through they signed an agreement not to. :001_huh:

 

Heather

Edited April 24, 2009 by siloam

[siloam]

Kind of makes me glad we didn't stick with TOG.

 

Question: if you are only able to use the DE on one computer, what happens when that computer goes kaput and you get a new computer?

 

They have a record that you purchased from them and will re-license you, no big deal.

 

Heather

 

[Karenciavo]

The woman ordered a print copy of a product. If they were not able to get it to her, they should have given her money back. Sending soemthing similar (DE) is not what I would consider acceptable. Either she should get the product she paid for in a timely manner or she should be given her money back without having to ask or any of that. There was no warning that this was going to happen and there should have been.

TOG Year 2 Redesign was being upgraded. When people purchased TOG Year 2 and Year 3 Redesign they knew it was a work in progress. TOG was sold this way as a favor to their customers. I have purchased TOG this way since 2003, I appreciated it. As I said they always made their deadlines until this year. The rug was pulled out from under them, as soon as Lampstand Press knew there was a problem they let people know. The op's friend could have been cancelled the remaider of her order and gotten reimbursed for units 3 & 4, only new orders were subject to the $25 cancellation fee.

 

My bigger problem with TOG is how everyone seems to want to feel bad for them and excuse all of the upheaval. As I said, I feel sympathy for the people involved. These are not easy choices they have had to make and I see that they had to make do with the situation as it developed. However, it is of their own doing. They printed on credit and now it has come back to bite them. They should have never taken orders for something they didn't have on hand. It is bad business practice. It would be like if my dh promised a client he could build a site that he didn't actually have the knowledge and skills to build. It just wouldn't be right and if he thought he could build it, and later found out he couldn't, he would need to return their money.

Not everyone feels *bad* for them and wants to excuse them, I don't. I don't know all the inner workings of what went on, but I think I would have done things differently based on my limited knowledge of the situation and my fertile imagination. But I'm not going to stand by and let them be called unethical either. As I stated above people knew what they were getting into when they pre-ordered TOG. Lampstand is filling all the orders. I received mine around 8 weeks after the tentative posted back in June of 2008. The OP's friend will receive hers the first week of June. Product delivered.

 

I disagree will any and all "licensed to use but not actually own" stuff. When you purchase something you should own it. period. In this regard I am not saying that the TOG people acted illegally, I am saying that I believe only being able to license something is unethical. (Especially when that license costs almost what owning it use to cost) I realize many people disagree but it is just my opinion.

That's your opinion then and your are certainly entitled to it. I'm sure many people won't purchase TOG because of the lack of resale. I often purchase digital products that I can't resell (Teaching Company audio downloads, audible.com audio books, iTunes, etc.) I don't have a problem with it.

[Rhondabee]

I didn't read everything, but since you benefitted from your friend's purchase, why don't you offer to print it for her? You could even put it into a binder for her as an extra gesture.

 

(It's not like you'd be selling the info, just helping a friend get to it, you know?)

[specialmama]

Good suggestion, Rhonda! :iagree:

 

I also agree that this is not the forum to be critical of the Sommerville's MINISTRY which could have gone down, but didn't because they were creative in trying to see this Redesign product to completion.

 

Do we bash Susan Wise Bauer on this site? If we do, she has every right to stand up for herself and delete posts and suspend members. Rightfully so. So if people have a bone of contention with TOG, they need to go to their forum and not "flame" them on another site. One should not come to conclusions when they don't know the full story and don't READ and understand THE FINE PRINT in an order. NONE of us here is this customer in question, so none of us know the full story. The product WILL indeed be delivered, so dissing the company for trying to succeed amid economic crisis which the whole freakin' world is going through is quite unfair and THAT is what I find unethical.

 

I have always been VERY impressed with customer service at TOG, and if, by some fluke, someone has not had great customer service, well then I suppose grace can be handed out because we're all people who have bad days. This is a good company who is trying desperately to fulfill their end of the bargain, and for the record, so far, they are SUCCEEDING.

Edited April 24, 2009 by specialmama
to remove some of my rather harsher words lol

[choirfarm]

Honestly, I wasn't trying to flame!!! update: to Clarify: My friend is VERY softspoken and only wanted to use 2 units this year, which she was able to do anyway. Yes, she could have called .The sadness in my post is for TOG because I think it is such a great curriculum and I'm afraid this going to DE price thing will only make their financial situation worse. She has decided to go back to Sonlight and I think that is part of the reason she doesn't feel the need to ask for a refund. I think she wants to just be done with the whole experiment. I'm giving her my core 3 to use for next year. So I think she will just resell the whole thing whenever she gets it.

 

I wasn't upse at TOG or the customer service. I think if she had called, they would have worked something out. TOG is great that way. I just feel awful for the company itself because I think the problems this year will really affect them down the road. I also feel bad because I talked my friend into it and it wasn't a good fit for her either. Honestly, I wasn't bashing TOG because I LOVE LOVE LOVE IT, which is how I talked her into it... Sigh...

[FlockOfSillies]

They should have never taken orders for something they didn't have on hand. It is bad business practice.

 

Oh, do you mean things like backorders? Or when Amazon lists the availability of something as "in stock -- only 2 left, order soon" or "3-5 weeks"?

 

I don't know whether you realize this, but over the past 15 years or so there has been a big shift in the business world to "just in time" delivery. Businesses of all kinds are trying to minimize the inventory sitting on their shelves, so they order supplies or product to arrive in their warehouses as close to the time of need as they can.

 

I don't think it's bad business practice to let people know up front what you have in stock, or how soon you expect something to arrive. Sheesh, how many times have people here on these boards ordered something from Rainbow Resource, only to find out afterward that the item was backordered?

 

If the op's friend is "too softspoken" to stand up for herself in a businesslike manner, then I don't see how that's the op's fault. The friend could have decided that she didn't want the DE as a substitute to keep her going until the print version arrived. All she had to do was say, "No thanks. That's not going to work for me."

 

Maybe it's just bad business practice to produce homeschool materials. There's no money in it.

[choirfarm]

I do believe that if she had called and said this won't work, they would have given her money back right away. The integrity of TOG has been top notch. I just think my friend thought, well I won't need it until next year anyway we didn't realize it would take this long to get the year 2 orders (I got my year 3 awhile ago.). Then by Christmas she realized the curriculum wasn't working for her anyway, so why bother...I'll just sell it. It is just that our curriculum sale for our co-op was last week, so she mentioned to me that she wished she could have sold it in a wistful tone. She isn't angry or anything like that. It just made me wince because I feel like it is all my fault for being so gung ho this last summer.

 

Christine

[choirfarm]

I didn't read everything, but since you benefitted from your friend's purchase, why don't you offer to print it for her? You could even put it into a binder for her as an extra gesture.

 

(It's not like you'd be selling the info, just helping a friend get to it, you know?)

 

Actually I offered to loan her my copy. We are finishing up unit 3 next week. But she has decided she would rather just go back to Sonlight, so I will just give her my 2001 copy. I haven't been able to get rid of it at our curriculum sale for the last few years anyway. I almost put it on the free table this year.

 

Christine

[Rhondabee]

I also feel bad because I talked my friend into it and it wasn't a good fit for her either. Honestly, I wasn't bashing TOG because I LOVE LOVE LOVE IT, which is how I talked her into it... Sigh...

 

Well, I'm not the board fairy, but here:

 

:grouphug:

 

Forgive yourself! It's over.

 

And, I've bought more than one curriculum based on someone else's loving it only to realize it was too much, or not enough, or just not "us". That is the danger of comparing notes with other homeschool moms. But, how wonderful that you have such a great friend who can share your journey!

 

ETA: I think you might need a break from this thread. You certainly don't need to spend your Friday here defending TOG when that wasn't your main concern. Blessings!

Edited April 24, 2009 by Rhondabee

[Rhondabee]

Oops - guess we were posting at the same time. Please read my post above...

[Tammyla]

Refund...She should request one and I'm thinking they would happily give one. Businesses have losses, refunds etc and the good will and word of mouth goes a long way in the home-school curriculum business. Their company need to change in order to continue is understandable as is requesting what you paid for or a refund.

jm2cents

[Mama Lynx]

OK, I see.

 

Yes, I really think that if she had called, they'd have worked something out for her.

 

I'm with you - I think DE runs a great risk of hurting them. It is sad, because this is such a good curriculum.

[JaneGrey]

I think it's interesting that several of you think that TOG's switch to DE doesn't bode well for their business. I know someone who was really excited about the switch and was getting others to jump on board with her.

 

I hate the idea because I want a hard copy of everything, so that's one reason I'm pulling out of TOG.

 

Hope things work well for them at Lampstand. I will definitely miss the TOG community. I've been very impressed with the friendliness of TOG users, which is part of what won me over.

 

On another note, I'm glad that I only intended to use Unit 1 and 2 of Year 2 this year (based on the advice of others). Their situation this year made me think for the first time about showing mercy to a business. Also, I've never thought of a profitable business as a ministry before. Good food for thought.

[siloam]

Honestly, I wasn't trying to flame!!! update: to Clarify: My friend is VERY softspoken and only wanted to use 2 units this year, which she was able to do anyway. Yes, she could have called .The sadness in my post is for TOG because I think it is such a great curriculum and I'm afraid this going to DE price thing will only make their financial situation worse. She has decided to go back to Sonlight and I think that is part of the reason she doesn't feel the need to ask for a refund. I think she wants to just be done with the whole experiment. I'm giving her my core 3 to use for next year. So I think she will just resell the whole thing whenever she gets it.

 

I wasn't upse at TOG or the customer service. I think if she had called, they would have worked something out. TOG is great that way. I just feel awful for the company itself because I think the problems this year will really affect them down the road. I also feel bad because I talked my friend into it and it wasn't a good fit for her either. Honestly, I wasn't bashing TOG because I LOVE LOVE LOVE IT, which is how I talked her into it... Sigh...

 

I am sorry for my part in keeping this thread going yesterday. I had several things going on that I was irritated with, but I had on means of letting off steam. Because I had to hold back, latched onto this to vent my emotions. Once the day was over and I looked back I thought, "What is the big harry deal? Sheesh!"

 

It is hard to me anytime I recommend something and it doesn't work out for the person, so I understand how you feel.

 

Heather

[Mama Lynx]

I don't mind digital. But I think the negation of resale value will hurt them, yes.

[FlockOfSillies]

What works for you may not work for someone else. There are a hundred different reasons why that may be the case. Don't feel guilty for being enthusiastic about something, unless you were obviously pushy, of course. Sometimes we know that a certain program will go against our grain, and we think, "I'll just force myself to make it work." What happens? It's a mismatch that sits unused on the shelf. But sometimes you don't know whether a curriculum is going to work for you until you try it.

 

Don't feel guilty. She's a grown-up, and she chose to buy the product on your recommendation. But SHE chose. It's probably not the first program that failed for her (haven't we all had our share?), so don't feel guilty about this one.

[specialmama]

Honestly, I wasn't trying to flame!!! update: to Clarify: My friend is VERY softspoken and only wanted to use 2 units this year, which she was able to do anyway. Yes, she could have called .The sadness in my post is for TOG because I think it is such a great curriculum and I'm afraid this going to DE price thing will only make their financial situation worse. She has decided to go back to Sonlight and I think that is part of the reason she doesn't feel the need to ask for a refund. I think she wants to just be done with the whole experiment. I'm giving her my core 3 to use for next year. So I think she will just resell the whole thing whenever she gets it.

 

I wasn't upse at TOG or the customer service. I think if she had called, they would have worked something out. TOG is great that way. I just feel awful for the company itself because I think the problems this year will really affect them down the road. I also feel bad because I talked my friend into it and it wasn't a good fit for her either. Honestly, I wasn't bashing TOG because I LOVE LOVE LOVE IT, which is how I talked her into it... Sigh...

 

I get it, and I wasn't meaning that you were flaming or bashing, but the direction the thread in general was going was not putting TOG in a nice light. I was rather irked by several comments in general (to with ethics and judging TOG as a whole based on this one thread.) I felt like we were talking behind a good friend's back and they weren't there to defend themselves.

 

I hope my post didn't upset you because I truly meant it in a general sense, not towards you personally. Anyhow, I do agree that if your friend had called, it would all be solved. And I can understand loving TOG so much that you feel responsible. It's a yucky situation to be in, for sure!

 

Further, I really do understand your need to start this thread: to commiserate, to join with fellow homeschoolers over this, and get a hug because it's a spot that many of us can relate to: having loved a curric so much that we just want to share it. :grouphug: Unfortunately, people who don't know TOG (and the fine print involved in Redesign) chimed in and perhaps that is where it got rocky, because it created an uneven playing field, if you will. Those people didn't read the email re. financial problems, nor the agreement when you make a purchase. Makes me wish the TOG group on this forum was more active ;) I'm sure the thread would have taken a much more sympathetic turn toward you and your situation, instead of misdirected (but well meaning, I'm sure) anger at TOG. :grouphug:

[my4boysmom]

The woman ordered a print copy of a product. If they were not able to get it to her, they should have given her money back. Sending soemthing similar (DE) is not what I would consider acceptable. Either she should get the product she paid for in a timely manner or she should be given her money back without having to ask or any of that. There was no warning that this was going to happen and there should have been.

 

My bigger problem with TOG is how everyone seems to want to feel bad for them and excuse all of the upheaval. As I said, I feel sympathy for the people involved. These are not easy choices they have had to make and I see that they had to make do with the situation as it developed. However, it is of their own doing. They printed on credit and now it has come back to bite them. They should have never taken orders for something they didn't have on hand. It is bad business practice. It would be like if my dh promised a client he could build a site that he didn't actually have the knowledge and skills to build. It just wouldn't be right and if he thought he could build it, and later found out he couldn't, he would need to return their money.

 

 

I disagree will any and all "licensed to use but not actually own" stuff. When you purchase something you should own it. period. In this regard I am not saying that the TOG people acted illegally, I am saying that I believe only being able to license something is unethical. (Especially when that license costs almost what owning it use to cost) I realize many people disagree but it is just my opinion.

 

 

 

I'm reading a lot of posts about legal and ethical and well as a business owner and new tog user I agree that something being legal doesn't make it ethical.

 

When you buy something and expect that product by a certain time you expect what you paid for. This one was purchased prior to the issues, right? If I'm understanding this correctly she placed this order when things appeared okay. If she paid for a printed version she should get a printed version. TOG should have contacted their customers to ask them if it was okay to switch the order. I would be demanding a refund if I were this unhappy. It's not about resale or licensing at this point. They aren't getting what they paid for. It is bad business even if that is not their intent. I don't believe for a moment it is their intent. It's just that it's hurting their business as a result. It's a darn shame.

 

I personally don't want the DE version. I've been buying year 2 for later one unit at a time. I might be wrong about how I feel but really give your customers back their money if they don't want the new product before you lose other customers from the aftermath.

[Karenciavo]

When you buy something and expect that product by a certain time you expect what you paid for. This one was purchased prior to the issues, right? If I'm understanding this correctly she placed this order when things appeared okay. If she paid for a printed version she should get a printed version.

She is getting the printed version. In addition they gave her, free of charge, the DE version as well to make up for the unforeseen delay.

 

TOG should have contacted their customers to ask them if it was okay to switch the order.

They did contact everyone.

 

I would be demanding a refund if I were this unhappy. It's not about resale or licensing at this point. They aren't getting what they paid for. It is bad business even if that is not their intent. I don't believe for a moment it is their intent. It's just that it's hurting their business as a result. It's a darn shame.

If the woman had picked up the phone I'm sure they would have helped her. I have three friends in my co-op who did not want/couldn't figure out DE and Lampstand Press gave all of them photocopies of the unit instead. If the op's friend wanted a refund for the remaining units she would have gotten one.