My continuing search for information on the PCA

[dangermom]

Hello, a month or so ago I asked for information about Presbyterianism, and got some good help here. Now I need some more specific information about the Presbyterian Church in America.

 

So far I understand that the PCA is quite conservative and Reformed in nature. They adhere to the Westminster Confession and the Calvinist points of TULIP. They do not allow women to be ordained. Is that all correct so far?

 

I would like to know how the PCA stands on infant baptism and submission in marriage, plus anything else you can tell me. Please assume that I'm pretty clueless; although I try to understand the different kinds of Protestantism, I do find it confusing and Presbyterianism in particular. Thanks so much for any help you can give me. :001_smile:

[Remudamom]

We belong to a PCA. We have infant baptisms. Submission too, although we hear a lot directed towards the husbands not abusing "submission". The rest is correct.

 

If you really want to learn about reformed churches, check out Douglas Wilson. He has been heartily and unjustly reviled on this board. His blog is Blog and Mablog, and his sermons are there. I'll find you a link.

[Remudamom]

http://www.dougwils.com/index.asp?Action=Anchor&CategoryID=1&BlogID=3979

 

Sermons on the bar at the left.

[dangermom]

He's the one who wrote the book on Classical Christian education, right? And he has a school? I totally missed whatever controversy there was about him here. Thanks for the link, I will check it out. (Blog and Mablog, hee hee :tongue_smilie:)

 

OK, more things I thought of to ask about:

 

What are the services like? Traditional with hymns or contemporary with praise music? Both?

 

What about free will? As far as I can tell, predestination and perseverance of the saints means no free will. Can someone explain that?

 

So you would say that children are not born innocent, but already completely sinful and depraved, yes?

 

Please explain very clearly about wifely submission in the PCA. I'm not trying to get in a fight about it or anything, I just need to understand it clearly and I don't come from the same religious background. (Same with free will please.)

 

Thanks so much for any help you can give me.

[catalinakel]

Not sure exactly what you are looking for, but here is a link to the pca's website, and also a link to their magazine

 

http://www.pcanet.org/

 

http://byfaithonline.com/

 

Yes, the PCA believes that infants should be baptized and that wives should submit to their husbands, but at our church, you don't really hear that from the pulpit. You hear grace....not shoulds and shouldn'ts. Ask more specific questions and I can give more specific answers. I know for certain that not all pca churches are alike, for one thing.

[Remudamom]

Well, let's see.......as far as submission goes in our house it looks like this. Dh consults me, takes my opinion into account and he makes the final decisions (about some things) around here. I'm not good at submission, but we've been married for 30 years now. It's not the oppressive relationship some people make it out to be. And of course, I have my own areas of control, or whatever you want to call it. What catalinakel said.

 

Our church is very conservative and liturgical. I can't bear silliness in a church service. Yep, children are born sinful. Praise music? ugh. Our church sings good old hymns Sunday morning but sometimes has praise music Sunday night. Free will, predestination? Oh dear, I'm not that good. Where's Jugglin5??

 

Yes, Douglas Wilson brought classical back into vogue. There is a school, college, seminary and two churches connected with him in Idaho. Also Canon Press. If I'm not completely off base here I believe SWB talked to him when she was writing her book. We've been to his church, loved it. Actually, his is CRE, but similar in many ways to PCA. We considered moving there but couldn't figure out how to move our ranch.

[SonshineLearner]

We are going to a PCA church....We don't believe in infant baptism, as we believe it's an act of obedience on the part new believer's part. BUT, our church doesn't mandate that you have your infants baptized as some Paedo believing churches do.

We sing hymns, and have a couple of more chorus like music in the bulletin...but nothing too out there.... AND, they aren't sung over and over and over...

We do family worship, although some take their children to the nursery...and stay with them... or walk them in the back. I would consider ours a family integrated church.

Carrie:-)

[catalinakel]

ok, now I see some specific questions. and, by the way, Doug Wilson does not represent the PCA, nor is his church part of the PCA. The controversy over him is with regard to his "Federal Vision" and, although I have not wanted to spend too much time seeking to understand this completely, I believe that it somewhat has to do with husbands and wives (and unmarried daughters, I believe) in the church.

 

Our church has an incredible worship team of talented musicians and singers. We sing hymns and contemporary songs, many written by PCA musicians. I was pleasantly surprised when I first visited a PCA church at how the music focused on God rather than on me.

 

We believe that all born are of Adam's stock and are, thus, sinners from birth and totally depraved.

 

Regarding free will....I have a difficult time with the phrase for many reasons. I know that I am free to do whatever I want, but I also believe that it is not possible for me to become an unbeliever-that Christ has chosen me to be His and nothing can change that, including me.

 

God saved me, that I know for sure. I did not pray the sinner's prayer, or raise my hand and accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior.

God revealed Himself to me in a real way, in real time on a specific day. I was changed and I understood the gospel. This was not my own doing, but something that God did to me. I understood it this way prior to having any knowledge of conversion, free will or any other theological concept. So I began my Christian life knowing that God did something to me to cause me to understand and believe, rather than me having decided to choose God.

 

"As far as I can tell, predestination and perseverance of the saints means no free will. Can someone explain that?"

 

I am predestined, and I will persevere, but, no, I cannot fully explain that. Men have spent their lives seeking to understand and explain this....the confession maps it all out for us....but it is still somewhat mystery to me. And I am fine with that.

 

Regarding submission to husbands....we believe what the Bible teaches....Paul has said-wives submit to your husbands. There is no mumbo-jumbo about this at our church, no weirdness, or stepford wives,.....and, again, I never hear this from the pulpit, or anywhere else, unless we happen to be reading this section of the Bible.

 

We hear grace. We cling to grace. In my 27 years as an adult believer, I have been part of a variety of churches, but when I found the PCA, I found a home where the Bible was taught fully. And I am so glad for that. I wish we were the perfect church, but, alas, there are no perfect churches.

[dangermom]

Thanks, please keep it coming. I don't know what a CRE is.

 

As I said, I'm not trying to debate or argue over the points I'm asking about--I don't even know enough to have a debate at this point--but I need to understand them clearly. :001_smile:

 

And now I'm going to church myself, so I won't be back for a while.

[TravelingChris]

My PCA church has both praise music, old hymns, and music sung by choirs (sometimes old music like Bach, sometimes sprituals, sometimes more comtemporary, etc). I love the mix. We do have infant baptism. Since they do go with the Bible, I believe they would go with wifely submission but we haven't have any preaching on that. One of the things that I love about my particular church is the wide variety of people who are coming together to worship. I am sure that is because where we are (close Northern VA suburbs).

[angela in ohio]

We belong to a PCA church.

 

The PCA church is officially infant baptism, but members of our church can believe in believer baptism (not officers, though.)

 

Our church teaches submission of wives to their husbands as the Church submits to Christ (as it is written in the Bible.) It would be hard to go into many more details, as our church isnt legalistic, so you don't get a set of rules, but the guiding principle of Scripture. So it may look different in each family.

 

Douglas Wilson is not PCA. R.C. Sproul is, and D. James Kennedy was. Also, the founder and the current editor-in-chief of World Magazine are both PCA.

 

The PCA is waaaay more conserative than the PC(USA) and slightly less conserative than the OPC.

 

There is some variation in services within the PCA. Some are more conservative than others as far as music and such (as with the ways in which women serve.)

 

Our church is a mix of hymns and more current music, but all God-honoring and Scripturally accurate. We don't have a screen up front, nor do we have drama ministry. The service is instead pretty traditional. We sing very loudly. :D We celebrate the Lord's Supper at the first service of each month. Like many PCA churches, I'm sure, our church has depth in education about the Bible and the doctrines of our faith.

[tnmomofboys]

I have been a member of the PCA for the last 12 years. This best place for understanding the doctrine is going to be at a PCA church. We have relocated to different cities several times, each time going thru a visitors class before joining. This is an excellent place to go and learn and I think most PCA churches do this. Our church welcomes anyone to attend even if the end result is not membership for you. Ours is done over a weekend, Friday night, Saturday (1/2 day) and Sunday morning.

I, too, believe that the terms free will and predestination get used or "misused" by some that do not fully understand the theology behind it. Catalinakel did an excellent job in her post. I wish I could say it so clearly.

[dangermom]

OK, one more question: I'm presuming that the PCA subscribes to the belief of the priesthood of all believers? Can someone explain that for me? How does one become a pastor/minister, and what gives that person authority to act for God?

 

Sorry, I still am having a hard time wrapping my head around predestination and free will, so if anyone wants to get detailed, I would appreciate it very much.

 

What's the CRE cited earlier?

 

Thanks so much for your time and help.

[Shelly in the Country]

We are members of the PCA. I edited this to clarify a bit. I think the person who referenced "CRE" meant CREC. The CREC is the Confederation of Reformed and Evangelical Churches. This is an organization associated with Douglas Wilson. Doug Wilson is NOT a member of the PCA. The CREC is NOT part of the PCA. The CREC is associated with the Federal Vision movement which has been rejected by the PCA. You can Google Federal Vision for more info if you're feeling curious, but it's a long rabbit trail. IIRC the PCA has determined that the Federal Vision movement does not adhere to the Westminster Standards. A book on the FV movement I've been wanting to read is Covenant, Justification and Pastoral Ministry by R. Scott Clark. A good source for understanding predestination and free will is Chosen by God by RC Sproul. I'm sure RC Sproul's website has free resources as well. www.ligonier.org And RC Sproul IS a minister in the PCA.

Edited April 19, 2009 by Shelly in the Country
clarification

[angela in ohio]

Another good Sproul book: Essentials of the Christian Faith. There are almost 100 pages in there explaining sin and salvation alone. It is like an encyclopedia of the Reformed faith.

[teamturner]

I think CRE stands for Confederated Reformed Evangelical (?????). I have a friend in another town whose dh is a pastor of one of the churches in that denomination.

 

There is not anything that someone can say that will help you understand predestination and free will. I've been in the PCA for 19 years and I still don't understand it perfectly. You just need to read up on it and study the Bible and pray that God will help you understand. It's not a neccessary principle for salvation and whether you are baptized as an infant or believer is not either. I didn't believe in infant baptism when I first joined the PCA but as I grew to understand the reasons behind it I have since embraced the practice for my family.

 

As for priesthood of all Christians, this is a matter of not needing another person (a priest) to approach God and for the forgiveness of sins. Someone else jump in and fill in what I am leaving out.

 

I also wanted to confirm that wifely submission is not preached from the pulpit, although we believe in it. You don't get a lot of "how to" sermons in the PCA but rather sermons that explain God's word, reiterate the Gospel, how we are justified and are in the process of sanctification. Generally speaking. Every time I've ever heard anyone mention the passage about submission they are sure to also mention that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.

 

And I agree that you should ask these questions at a new member class at a PCA church. Because of moves, we've been in 5 different PCA churches and they all vary as to the worship style. We like the ones that include praise songs but hymns are important to us as well. It's a pretty traditional service at our church now.

[Alice]

We go to a PCA church. I think as far as things like what the service is like, it will vary widely from church to church. Our church is a mix...we have praise music and hymns. We've visited very arty PCA churches in New York City and very traditional PCA churches in other places. So the style of the service will probably reflect more the personality of the congregation than be denomination specific. There will be similarities of course also.

 

The PCA does not ordain women, nor allow women to serve as elders or deacons. I don't personally agree with this but I love my church and so haven't let this be an issue of division. Many of the people in my church, men included, disagree with this policy but are ok with abiding by the denomination guidelines. As far as submission, the church teaches submission of wives to husbands but I haven't really felt like it's emphasized. I don't really find that this is a topic that we dwell much on.

 

We do believe in infant baptism but we have several friends that don't and still attend the church.

 

I don't think I can answer the predestination/free will question in any kind of satisfactory way in this kind of setting. It's something I still struggle with and have a hard time wrapping my mind around, but at the same time it makes the most sense to me theologically. I'm still reading and studying and trying to understand this more deeply.

[catalinakel]

OK, one more question: I'm presuming that the PCA subscribes to the belief of the priesthood of all believers? Yes. we believe in the priesthood of all believers. Can someone explain that for me? This means that Christ is our High priest and stands before the Father on our behalf. And that because of this, we can approach God directly. How does one become a pastor/minister, and what gives that person authority to act for God?To be ordained in the PCA one must study the faith at a PCA seminary, I believe. The PCA is a strong believer in Education for its ministersI have never heard a PCA pastor say that he acts for God on our behalf. I do not believe that this concept is part of a PCA church. Christ died for us - we now respond to God in response to the Holy

Spirit and the Bible.

 

Sorry, I still am having a hard time wrapping my head around predestination and free will, so if anyone wants to get detailed, I would appreciate it very much.Again, men have spent lifetimes trying to wrap their heads around this. I believe that it is somewhat incomprehensible....but the PCA believes that God chooses man. And that man of his own free will sinned. What exactly else do you wish to know?

 

What's the CRE cited earlier?

 

Thanks so much for your time and help.

I believe that the PCA church is often misunderstood and also under attended. Again, I wish we were the perfect church, but we are not. However, I have made my home in a PCA church for the past ten years after having visited a variety of others.

[ladydusk]

What about free will? As far as I can tell, predestination and perseverance of the saints means no free will. Can someone explain that?

 

 

Adam, before the fall, had a perfect free will: he could [sin] or he could [not sin]. Once he sinned, his descendants (us) are only able to choose sin because we freely choose to sin (Romans 3:23). We are dead in sin. The Holy Spirit gives the elect the ability to freely choose (Titus 3:4-7; Romans 8-9), and the regenerate have the freedom to choose what is good: God.

 

The Bible says we are dead in sin and God makes us alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:1-10). A drowning man can catch a lifesaver and be pulled into the boat; he can choose. A dead man, OTOH, can only be hauled in by someone grabbing him. This is the picture of what God does for his elect; he hauls the dead in and makes them alive. Once the Lord has made him alive, can he again die? This is a basis for perseverance of the saints. The Wiki article on perseverance is pretty good.

 

I don't really want to debate this, either; and this is a very imperfect (as all analogies are) picture and explanation of Reformed belief. The RC Sproul book, Chosen by God, is a much better, more complete discussion than could be made here. You can see how all of the pieces of the TULIP doctrine fit together to explain our will, election, and perseverance.

 

I am not a PCAer but in the OPC, which as someone else noted is similar. There is a discussion of this on our denomination's site you may wish to read.

[Remudamom]

Yes, CRE stands for Confederation of Reformed Evangelicals, and it is very much like my PCA church anyhow. The biggest difference is communion, which is given to covenant children in the CRE, and not my PCA. I agree with the CRE on this.

[Manamana]

I just wanted to chime in and mention that PCA pastors are not required to attend a PCA seminary for ordination but are required to have an MDiv degree and, among other preparation requirements, be examined by an ordination committee on topics such as theology. It is a rigorous process.

 

My husband attended a PCUSA seminary and two of his classmates are now ordained PCA pastors. A pastor at our previous non-denominational church was also going through the PCA ordination process. We now attend a conservative PCUSA church out here in Washington (many thriving, evangelical PCUSA churches exist!).

 

My basic understanding of predestination is that we, ourselves, do not choose to accept or follow Christ rather God chooses to reveal Himself to those whom He has elected, who are predestined for grace. The sovereignty of God is the focus. I think the argument made is that if I have free will to choose or reject God, than God is not sovereign, I am.

 

This is a simplified understanding but it is how I try to wrap my mind around the terms. I still have a lot of questions.