a secular mom's point of view

[secular_mom]

I think most people can understand the experience of being harshly criticized and/or questioned about homeschooling. People who don't agree with homeschooling can be very over the top about how they express their views.

They sometimes try to 'prove' that hsing is 'inferior', they have typical questions they ask that become tiring for many hsers. Sometimes family members treat us differently, because we made such a different choice in how to educate our children.

Non-hsers behavior can be downright offensive at times. Sometimes, the person is naturally curious when they ask ridiculous questions. Many of us become weary of the questions, and feel very guarded about how we respond to them, and even whether we respond to them at all. HSers are an educational minority, we are ostracized in TV shows, on T-shirts, etc.

Not EVERYone behaves this way, but there are enough people who do that I often feel a bit 'alone' in my choice when I'm among friends/relatives. People just have a hard time relating. Some people vehemently disagree, but would never say so to my face. Instead, they are passive agressive with me and my children, gossipping about our choice and how it is not 'good enough', giving my children crappy 'educational' gifts for birthdays and christmas (preschool games for my 7yo, for example).

Thankfully, I've been able to join hsing groups for support. But I still feel 'odd' when I have my children out in public during school hours.

 

 

My experience as an atheist has been much the same. There are certain questions people ask, with that same air of superiority. The fact that I reject their god greatly offends them, and they lash out at me. They tell me I have no morals, because I don't have a valid source for them. They go out of their way to mention their god in any and every conversation after they learn that I'm an atheist, when they didn't do so before. They stop waving when they see me in public. They treat me and my children much differently than they did when they thought I did believe in their god. They frequently ask why I celebrate "Christmas" because I have no right to if I don't believe in their god. (Here's a small example of some of the behavior I've encountered among Christians- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5B3CgN-s2s ) Now, not EVERYone does this, but there are enough who DO that I feel very 'alone' in my part of the world. Thankfully, I have a group of secular hsing friends to turn to for local support. But I still feel 'odd' when I'm among a group of people who are mostly christian.

[LisaKinVA]

Well, just so you know, you aren't alone. I'm a professing Christian and I feel odd in most of the churches we've attended or been members. We've encountered some of the very same things, and it is what has kept me from pursuing more church involvement for years.

 

Move to Fredericksburg -- secular or not, I'll be more than happy to not be the only "odd" one in my neighborhood!:D

[Tammy]

or anyone who is religious..... I think the 'ad' is trying to convince people there is no God....that isn't right.

 

.

[HeathenMom]

honestly, i feel almost the complete opposite way. i have taken the time to make a choice for my kids as opposed to popping them into public school and taking the path of least resistance. when the people who would have something to say about my choice are exposed to my children they generally are disproven pretty quickly. besides, ultimately i am responsible for my kids education...'Ms. Smith' is not, and i could care less about anyone's opinion of that. it does not make me uncomfortable.

 

my spiritual choices are widely frowned on. very, very few people know anything about Germanic Heathenry. however, my spirituality is my own and i came into it though much research and introspection. many, many Christians i know found their way to Christianity through their family tradition or societial pressure and very little actual soul-searching and learning. when i am in a group of Christians i do not feel a little odd, because i almost always know as much about their beliefs as they do...and they know very little about mine. therefore if they take an air of superiority i have to understand that it's out of ignorance, and if they take the time to discuss my spiritual path with me they usually lose the elite attitude pretty quickly.

 

i think it's important to be fully confident in your choices and not let the masses dictate your view of yourself. if you understand where the judgement comes from, suddenly it doesn't mean as much.

:)

[Danestress]

Because the homeschool movement has been heavily influenced by Christians, I do think there are special challenges (both socially and in finding good materials) for the secular homeschooler.

 

As a Christian, I usually have less trouble finding friends and curricula while homeschooling, and I recognize that there are fewer groups (especially here in the Bible Belt) for non-Christian homeschoolers. I'm sorry for you and for your kids because I know that can be sad.

 

But at other times in my life, being a Christian has set me at odds with the people around me, and I can certainly relate to how hard it is to be mocked, cross examined and insulted - even within my own family by people who love me but don't understand. Being a committed Christian who is actually trying to live out a biblical faith in dorm on at a large public university, just as an example, can create some really interesting challenges for a kid, and many of us have been there. So that ought to make us understand your feeling of isolation and feel compassion for you, I guess, but sometimes it doesn't seem to work that way.

[Sophia]

'...if you understand where the judgement comes from, suddenly it doesn't mean as much."

 

Very well said!

People are judgemental, it doesn't matter what faith they profess.

You decide if that judgement has any merit, then consider it or dismiss it as you wish.

 

Fwiw, I've been considered 'odd' by so many people from so many groups, that I now consider myself normal and everyone else is odd ;-)

[LisaKinVA]

Personally, I do think the ad was in bad taste. Mainly, because it comes across as a full assault on Christians during, what many consider an important religious holiday.

 

However, Christians need to learn NOT to be baited. It's one thing to feel angry, it's another thing to get out of control.

 

Christ got angry at people who called themselves "Jews" -- because they essentially were pretenders. He did NOT go nutzoid towards non-believers, even when they mocked him, or

 

While I might find something personally offensive, I can speak out against it, but remain calm, not name-call, etc. If I am unable to remain civil, I should keep my mouth shut, and just walk away. Now, if a group was banging in my door to come take my children away because of my faith -- that's another thing entirely.

[Mad Jenny Flint]

I think it is a journey to get to a place of comfort when you are feeling judged by others. I think the journey is one of becoming the person you want to be, finding your moral base, wherever that comes from, and living with integrity to that, and finding self-acceptance.

 

My mom made some comments about religion/spirituality regarding a book that I am currently reading (The Artist's Way), which references spirituality. She gave me a strange look and asked "You are spiritual?" because she knows I am an Atheist. She believes, apparently, that religion and spirituality are one and the same. I do not. Still, I felt anxious all morning as a result of that very brief interaction.

 

My anxiety about that came from me. It came from my not having quite reached a point of self-acceptance that would allow me to put comments like that on "ignore". Does this make sense? There are many things that people have said to me in the past, regarding homeschooling and regarding religion, that have upset me, and those things would never upset me now, because I have reached a place of more security about those things in my own mind. I know what is right for me, and so I move forward without giving others' opinions a second thought.

 

It is only in the areas where I might still have some of my own issues (and with this one, mother-daughter issues are part of the story, as well) that I continue to struggle. So, I breathe deeply, and I learn from each interaction what I need to get to the next small level on the journey, which is lifelong, so there is also no reason to beat myself up about not being "there" yet. All is well.

[mommaduck]

I wonder...just thinking aloud here:

 

are they mentioning their Christianity more because you were open about your atheism? That could lead to some interesting conversation or, at the very least, understanding on both sides. Not all Christians are out to "convert" you ;) Especially if you've made it clear that you have no interest.

 

I don't get the questions or thinking that you are immoral either. There's the good, the bad, and the ugly in every bunch...regardless of what faith is claimed to be followed. An accurate Christian viewpoint is that ALL are sinners in one regard or another...even Christians.

 

BTW, I'm a Christian that does NOT recognise Christmass or Easter (I do recognise Resurrection Lord's Day).

[secular_mom]

ITU what you are saying, and that is great. I do understand where the judgments are coming from, and I honestly feel very sorry for those people. It's not the 'thoughts' of judgment that bother me, they can think what they wish. It's their actions that bother me. If I were a black person living in a different decade, I may KNOW that such stupid judgments have no merit, logically speaking. But that doesn't change the fact that their actions would have a large impact on my life. I mean, even now racism is alive and well, and while that attitude is 'wrong', it still hurts people and racists are still acting based on their beliefs.

*I* know I've made the best decisions for my family. I would just like to see other people respect the decisions I have made. KWIM?

[secular_mom]

Very good points, Jenny. Thanks for posting. :)

[secular_mom]

I wonder...just thinking aloud here:

 

are they mentioning their Christianity more because you were open about your atheism? That could lead to some interesting conversation or, at the very least, understanding on both sides. Not all Christians are out to "convert" you ;) Especially if you've made it clear that you have no interest.

 

No, I'm actually not very open about being atheist. I perceive the comments I am getting to be some way of pushing their Christianity onto me. The comments have come after the people 'found out' that I am an atheist. And they are usually factual statements such as "well God made you...", "God made things this way...", "God knows what your needs are...", and "When you are ready to cry out to god, he will hear you and answer you". I know that all Christians aren't out to convert me, there are reasonable people with many different views.

 

I am wondering if my atheism is just seen as a challenge to their beliefs though, and in order to feel firm in their beliefs, these particular people feel the need to make sure they mention their beliefs to me in every single conversation. Hmmmmmm...

[WTMindy]

I'm very sorry that you have felt isolated. I am a Christian, and even though I would hope and even pray that you would believe the things I believe, I would love to have you as a friend despite our differences. I would love to have open discussions with you about our beliefs, not to push mine down your throat, but to have us understand each other better. I wouldn't even try and "convert" you, although I would pray for you. I would love to have my kids play with your kids so that my kids could learn to live out their faith in a world where people disagree. I want them to learn how to live out their beliefs and share them, but in a way that isn't pushy or offensive. It makes me sad when people hurt each other in the name of Christ, and I pray that I don't ever do that. I'm glad you have a circle of like-minded people, but know that there are some of us out here, who would accept you, even if we do disagree with you. :-)

[mommaduck]

No, I'm actually not very open about being atheist. I perceive the comments I am getting to be some way of pushing their Christianity onto me. The comments have come after the people 'found out' that I am an atheist. And they are usually factual statements such as "well God made you...", "God made things this way...", "God knows what your needs are...", and "When you are ready to cry out to god, he will hear you and answer you". I know that all Christians aren't out to convert me, there are reasonable people with many different views.

 

I am wondering if my atheism is just seen as a challenge to their beliefs though, and in order to feel firm in their beliefs, these particular people feel the need to make sure they mention their beliefs to me in every single conversation. Hmmmmmm...

 

hmm...no, it sounds about like you had it at first. They are hoping that their comments will "draw" you. Please know they mean well...but yes, I can understand that it is hurtful. I get the same from family of another branch of Christianity (and my husband gets to hear how I'm the darkness and dragging our kids to hell...even though he and I believe the same :glare: )

[secular_mom]

or anyone who is religious..... I think the 'ad' is trying to convince people there is no God....that isn't right.

 

.

 

I understand that POV. I think some people just feel the need to 'convert' people, no matter what their choice is. There are vegan activists, who feel the need to promote a vegan lifestyle; Christians who feel the need to convert as many people as possible; and some Humanists who feel the need to 'educate' as many people as possible. I can see why each of these groups feels the need to do so. They feel that their choice is a GOOD choice, the RIGHT choice, and of course they want others to enjoy what is Good and Right also- so they spread their message.

I would like to think that the Christians who would be very offended by such an ad, would also consider how possibly offensive Christian billboards are, suc as "Jesus is the reason for the season".

I'm not offended by people stating their beliefs. I am bothered when people treat me differently because of my atheism though. Does that make sense?

[mommaduck]

I understand that POV. I think some people just feel the need to 'convert' people, no matter what their choice is. There are vegan activists, who feel the need to promote a vegan lifestyle; Christians who feel the need to convert as many people as possible; and some Humanists who feel the need to 'educate' as many people as possible. I can see why each of these groups feels the need to do so. They feel that their choice is a GOOD choice, the RIGHT choice, and of course they want others to enjoy what is Good and Right also- so they spread their message.

I would like to think that the Christians who would be very offended by such an ad, would also consider how possibly offensive Christian billboards are, suc as "Jesus is the reason for the season".

I'm not offended by people stating their beliefs. I am bothered when people treat me differently because of my atheism though. Does that make sense?

Does it help if I said that I disagree with the "Jesus is the reason for the season" also? :lol: (where's that can of worms?)

[secular_mom]

Mindy,

 

I do know there are plenty of Christians who are accepting, there are some Christians who are members of my local secular hsing group who completely understand our POV and do not try to convert any of us. I wish there were just more people like that in the world, no matter their beliefs.

[Rhonda in TX]

You are going to criticized, ostracized, and belittled by some. You have to have the strength of your convictions to get you through, whatever they may be.

 

I'm not an atheist (far from it), but I do get flack (even from my best friend) for my political and religious values. I don't go with the crowd and that's hard sometimes. But, I strongly believe that the decisions DH and I make are the right ones for our family. So, I call and vent to the few friends I have that understand. :)

[secular_mom]

Does it help if I said that I disagree with the "Jesus is the reason for the season" also? :lol: (where's that can of worms?)

:D

[LaxMom]

If it makes you feel better, I am currently having a similar struggle with one person in our inclusive (read: not secular, we welcome everyone and parents are free to offer religious-based classes) co-op. This person seems hell-bent on waxing loudly on every topic from birthing, breastfeeding, vaccinating, parenting, religion - it occurs to me the only thing she doesn't seem self-righteous about is education... huh. - as if her decisions / beliefs are the only possible ones... lovely, sweeping statements such as "parents who vaccinate their children only do it because they don't know better" and "I've had just about enough of religion, thank you very much" in response to a perfectly innocent question about whether she attends church in town. (Is there a full body cringe smiley? Can we get one?)

 

Alas, until recently, she was also a member of the board... you can imagine how unwelcome our Christian moms who had c-sections (rather than the obviously superior homebirth choice), and choose to vaccinate their children for whatever reason may feel.

 

My experience is that the pendulum swings. A few years ago, our conservative Christian founder had to (repeatedly) educate one person on why it would not be appropriate to open our morning with a chapel service. Now, I (a liberal, secular board member) find myself having the same conversations, but with our Christian families largely as the target of the offensive comments, and with a person who was horrified by the idea that anyone would dare suggest a chapel service. (I admit I found the context of the persistence on this topic offensive, but would have no problem with like-minded families gathering 30 minutes early to pray together... for pete's sake.)

 

I'm hoping - and this is the basis for my own "I Have a Dream" speech, which my poor husband hears frequently - the pendulum will eventually settle in a place where "respect" comes from the assumption that everyone makes their choices based on the same available information, and with the needs of their own family in mind. Maybe then, people will feel less compelled to slam those who have a different view of things. Know what I mean? Shall we all hold our breath together?

[secular_mom]

Oh, mercy! I do not envy your position. I used to be Christian, and I had some horrible experiences with atheists, where they were very pompous and LOUD and OBNOXIOUS with their thoughts on religion. It was a real turn off, and I just left that group. It was an unschooling group, where some members also felt the need to LOUDLY and OBNOXIOUSLY repeatedly state why radical unschooling was THE best educational choice. Yikes.

I can very easily see and understand different points of view, even when they completely oppose my own view. I can understand why someone may find someone else's word offensive, even when I can see/hear/understand that the intent was not offensive and that maybe the misunderstanding comes from less than clear communication. But there are some people who are just plain offensive to others, no matter the subject. I think I shall work on a way to calmly point out to such people that they are being plainly offensive in general. I find myself caught up in situations where I'm trying to mediate, wish I was getting paid for it, LOL.

[LUV2EDU]

or anyone who is religious..... I think the 'ad' is trying to convince people there is no God....that isn't right.

 

.

 

:iagree:

 

 

Some people feel it isn't right for others to force their beliefs on them. However, if they feel that this is wrong, then why do they think it is right to try to convince others that there isn't a God?

Edited April 14, 2009 by LUV2EDU

[PineFarmMom]

If it makes you feel better, I am currently having a similar struggle with one person in our inclusive (read: not secular, we welcome everyone and parents are free to offer religious-based classes) co-op. This person seems hell-bent on waxing loudly on every topic from birthing, breastfeeding, vaccinating, parenting, religion - it occurs to me the only thing she doesn't seem self-righteous about is education... huh. - as if her decisions / beliefs are the only possible ones... lovely, sweeping statements such as "parents who vaccinate their children only do it because they don't know better" and "I've had just about enough of religion, thank you very much" in response to a perfectly innocent question about whether she attends church in town. (Is there a full body cringe smiley? Can we get one?)

 

Alas, until recently, she was also a member of the board... you can imagine how unwelcome our Christian moms who had c-sections (rather than the obviously superior homebirth choice), and choose to vaccinate their children for whatever reason may feel.

 

My experience is that the pendulum swings. A few years ago, our conservative Christian founder had to (repeatedly) educate one person on why it would not be appropriate to open our morning with a chapel service. Now, I (a liberal, secular board member) find myself having the same conversations, but with our Christian families largely as the target of the offensive comments, and with a person who was horrified by the idea that anyone would dare suggest a chapel service. (I admit I found the context of the persistence on this topic offensive, but would have no problem with like-minded families gathering 30 minutes early to pray together... for pete's sake.)

 

I'm hoping - and this is the basis for my own "I Have a Dream" speech, which my poor husband hears frequently - the pendulum will eventually settle in a place where "respect" comes from the assumption that everyone makes their choices based on the same available information, and with the needs of their own family in mind. Maybe then, people will feel less compelled to slam those who have a different view of things. Know what I mean? Shall we all hold our breath together?

 

 

That was an awesome post!! I appreciate that you made points on both sides. Good points. Your wording made me very sympathetic on both sides, and that is a great thing...seeing it from both points.

 

Teresa

[Night Elf]

I don't get the questions or thinking that you are immoral either.

 

Oh, I've gotten this from several Christians. I only reference Christians because the only other religious people I know are pagans.

 

Anyway, I was told that since I am not a Christian, I can't possibly understand morals or right from wrong because I have no consequences with which to motivate me to choose the right path.

[newlifemom]

Does it help if I said that I disagree with the "Jesus is the reason for the season" also? :lol: (where's that can of worms?)

 

 

Mommaduck,

 

I really like you.:D

[Karen sn]

I understand completely.

[Night Elf]

Some people feel it isn't right for others to force their beliefs on them. However, if they feel this is wrong, then why do they think it is right to try to convince others that there isn't a God?

 

As an atheist myself, I'd guess it's because they are feeling very defensive. It's not easy being looked down on all the time. Eventually a person can feel the need to kick their way back up to a decent feeling.

[Karen sn]

or anyone who is religious..... I think the 'ad' is trying to convince people there is no God....that isn't right.

 

.

 

You are way out of line.

She was polite.

WHY is it that when a headline says, "SECULAR"

you read it and complain?

 

If I see a thread "How can I have my CHRISTIAN religion in every school subject" - I do not respond with my opinion.

 

Here you have responded with biased criticism.

 

If you are not secular - don't read it or don't post.

I read CC and either ignore it or don't reply.

Or reply with respect.

 

We don't believe in your god.

You don't believe in ours.

It is ok.

[Karen sn]

Personally, I do think the ad was in bad taste. Mainly, because it comes across as a full assault on Christians during, what many consider an important religious holiday.

 

However, Christians need to learn NOT to be baited. It's one thing to feel angry, it's another thing to get out of control.

 

Christ got angry at people who called themselves "Jews" -- because they essentially were pretenders. He did NOT go nutzoid towards non-believers, even when they mocked him, or

 

While I might find something personally offensive, I can speak out against it, but remain calm, not name-call, etc. If I am unable to remain civil, I should keep my mouth shut, and just walk away. Now, if a group was banging in my door to come take my children away because of my faith -- that's another thing entirely.

 

Honey, she said SECULAR.

Why can't we discuss amongst ourselves?

We don't attack you in your CC threads.

Stay out please when we discuss our secularity if you can't respect us.

We believe what we believe because WE BELIEVE IT

NOT because we are desperately trying to test your faith or cause you to stumble.

[Karen sn]

 

I am wondering if my atheism is just seen as a challenge to their beliefs though, and in order to feel firm in their beliefs, these particular people feel the need to make sure they mention their beliefs to me in every single conversation. Hmmmmmm...

 

Yes. That is why secular posters get harrassed in their own thread which they politely labeled in advanced. See my post below, or wherever it is, about believing.

[PineFarmMom]

Honey, she said SECULAR.

Why can't we discuss amongst ourselves?

We don't attack you in your CC threads.

Stay out please when we discuss our secularity if you can't respect us.

We believe what we believe because WE BELIEVE IT

NOT because we are desperately trying to test your faith or cause you to stumble.

 

I wish you could catch my tone here because I'm saying this kindly in my head. When I read "A secular mom's point of view," as the post title, I didn't read it as "I'm wanting input from secular moms only" or something like that as often the CC posts seem to be purposed towards. I really, genuinely saw it as a secular mom offering a point of view so that Christians and others could read the post and get where she's coming from. I'm only guessing that other Christians saw the same intent behind the post. With that in mind, you sounded rather snarky!

[Karen sn]

......... "respect" comes from the assumption that everyone makes their choices based on the same available information, and with the needs of their own family in mind.

 

amen.

[Alice]

This is a bit off topic but I have found that sadly that in mothering circles there tends to just be too much judgment in general. Maybe it's because mothers feel strongly about their own choices and get defensive when someone has made a different choice. I don't know what it is but I feel like it happens all the time. Often in conversations with other mothers I feel a subtle "I'm better than you because...." message.

 

There's the "I'm better than you because I'm a Christian/not a Christian.

There's the "I'm better than you because I homeschool/public school/private school."

There's the "I'm better than you because I homebirth/deliver without medications."

There's the "I'm better than you because I vaccinate/don't vaccinate."

There's the "I'm better than you because I give my kids only organic foods and they've never seen a McNugget."

Etc.

 

Within the Christian world I feel like there is a subtle one-up-man-ship that goes something like this: If you're REALLY a good Christian woman you are married with kids (I know my single friends feel this judgment often), If you're REALLY a good Christian woman you stay home with your kids (I have been openly judged for working outside the home and also felt subtle disapproval), If you're REALLY a good Christian woman you have 12 children, if you're REALLY a good Christian woman you homeschool those 12 children...and feed them bread you baked yourself....with the butter you churned... from your family dairy cow. Etc.

 

I know I got a bit off topic. I am a Christian so I can't speak to what it's like to be secular/athiest/Hindu/Buddhist/Muslim in the homeschool world. I hope I don't judge anyone or make anyone feel that I am. I hope I treat everyone with respect. But I think that the problem of judgment does go deeper than just the religious issue.

 

For myself, I know I don't feel like I truly fit in in many places. At work, the other doctors think I'm nutty for homeschooling and don't really get it. In some Christian homeschool groups I get a surprised look when I say I work part-time. In the unschooling group we've gone to some park days with I've just kept my mouth shut when the conversation turns to vaccination/homebirth/alternative medicine...not that I care if they make different choices but it's obvious a pediatrician who gives vaccines and had 2 C-sections is not going to be their favorite person. It seems that so many of feel this way though...that we don't fit in or we are judged. Maybe we were all the kids at the unpopular table in the lunchroom. :) (I know I was.)

Edited April 14, 2009 by Alice

[Karen sn]

I wish you could catch my tone here because I'm saying this kindly in my head. When I read "A secular mom's point of view," as the post title, I didn't read it as "I'm wanting input from secular moms only" or something like that as often the CC posts seem to be purposed towards. I really, genuinely saw it as a secular mom offering a point of view so that Christians and others could read the post and get where she's coming from. I'm only guessing that other Christians saw the same intent behind the post. With that in mind, you sounded rather snarky!

 

 

No one is opposed to Christian opinion.

Just opposed to the outright criticism directed to the original poster.

[Karen sn]

Personally, I do think the ad was in bad taste. Mainly, because it comes across as a full assault on Christians during, what many consider an important religious holiday.

 

However, Christians need to learn NOT to be baited. It's one thing to feel angry, it's another thing to get out of control.

 

Christ got angry at people who called themselves "Jews" -- because they essentially were pretenders. He did NOT go nutzoid towards non-believers, even when they mocked him, or

 

While I might find something personally offensive, I can speak out against it, but remain calm, not name-call, etc. If I am unable to remain civil, I should keep my mouth shut, and just walk away. Now, if a group was banging in my door to come take my children away because of my faith -- that's another thing entirely.

 

Define full assault?