A Celebrity's Warning Has Upset Me This Morning...

[Sharon in SC]

ITA. I have never before felt this impression to prepare and stockpile before. If you knew me personally, you'd know I'm not an alarmist. I'm a very conservative, left brained thinker. However, this impression never leaves me. There could be many, many reasons to stockpile: job loss, frugality in case of inflation, natural disasters, ect.

 

I wouldn't stockpile or prepare unless I had an inward witness to do it. I had this same inward witness about removing dh's 401k money from the stockmarket in the spring of 2008. If I'm wrong I'll still be able to use everything I bought.

 

I really think it should be a personal thing b/w you and God. As to DW, I don't know him, but he is not a preacher that I am drawn to. I feel he is sincere though.

 

This thread is a blessing to me because I've been talking and talking about this w/ dh and I thought I was the only one! I'm glad to know there are others who've had this put on their hearts and are following through with it.

 

Sounds like we're kindred spirits. I, too, am not an alarmist. I am conservative and a left brained thinker. You hit the nail on the head when you spoke of "inward witness". That is what it is all about for me.

[Erica in PA]

Erica,

 

Let me begin this post by saying I wholeheartedly agree with the latter half of your post, 100%. For me, personally, it's not a situation where I hear what DW has said and I expect it to happen because he said it would. Factually speaking, I am one who suspects that catastrophic things could very well be brewing, in part, because of the number of Godly people (DW included) who are apparently hearing similar things from the Lord. I'm talking about people who I either know personally or know enough about to put credence in what they're thinking/feeling because their close walk with God is evidenced by fruit. From my perspective, I do not feel impressed to throw out the multitide of counsel.

 

I also, though, happen to be one who does believe the gift of prophecy is just as viable today as it was centuries ago in Bible time. That said, do I embrace every word of a modern day "prophet"? No, because they are human and fallible. There is only ONE infallible word and that is Scripture. Past that, any potential word from God via a prophet is coming through a human filter. My personal practice is to place that word "on a shelf" so to speak until or unless the Lord confirms it to be of Him.

 

Ultimately, it is the Holy Spirit to whom I respond. Period. While the Lord may choose to use a "prophet" to speak His heart to me, I can ultimately and most undoubtedly count on the Holy Spirit to guide me and direct me, counsel me and watch over me, instruct me and show me the way that I'm to go. (It just so happens that, for now, I do believe He is leading me to gather provisions and this is NOT because of anything that DW has said, per se).

 

The beauty of relationship with God is that He knows how to speak to us as individuals, right where we are. He created us and He knows how to speak in a way that will reach our ears - yours, mine, and another's. For that, I am eternally grateful!

 

There's one thing I don't understand though... from your perspective, is there any accountability for those who claim to have a message from the Lord? When a person claims to have received something from the Lord, informs others of this message, and is found out to be incorrect... what do you do with that? If that person comes out again with another prophesy, will you be just as likely to believe it again? Is there ever a point where you conclude that these are just thoughts, concerns, fears, emotions coming from a well-meaning individual, rather than divine communication?

 

As far as needing to hear a message from a number of prophets, is there a biblical basis for that?... in the Bible, those who were prophets were often the lone voice for God, weren't they? And a multitude of similar messages weren't needed, because that message was always correct, always directly from the Lord Himself. The idea that one can know that a person is speaking prophetically because lots of other godly people have been saying the same thing... where do you get a biblical basis for that belief?

[PineFarmMom]

Ginger, check out this site www.simplylivingsmart.com It has lots of information about getting started with food storage and how to cook from your stored foods regularly so that you are routinely rotating your supply. It involves much more than canned tuna. BTW, I find such comments condescending. If you don't feel called to stock up, fine. But please remain civil to those of us who have and continue to do so.

quote]

 

 

That is a very interesting site. For really no other reason than preparedness, the idea of stockpiling has been on my mind for a while. I'm going to look over the website.

 

Teresa

[outtamyshell]

I read an article in the WSJ last year that talked about inflation expected to continue. They mentioned that now is the time for Americans to stock up on peanut butter and batteries... because the prices are going to continue to rise. And that was before the government increased the money supply so dramatically. I don't think we need to go crazy with stockpiling, but my perspective has changed dramatically over the last year. How long have people relied on grocery stores to hold everything they needed? How much of an interuption in the supply chain do we need before the grocery shelves are empty? Around here, if a storm is coming you can't buy bread, milk, batteries or toilet paper. The shelves are empty.

 

You don't have to be a prophet or anticipating doom and gloom to pick up on the preparedness talk that is all around us. Maybe I notice it more because I'm LDS, but I'm seeing a lot of interest in stocking up on basics. And not just from religious people.

[farmgirlinwv]

It was ironic that yesterday I went to Krogers to p/u a few items. It looked like the end of the world. I didn't know what was going on. I told the cashier, "You sure are busy for a Thursday afternoon.". She said it was because they were calling for some wintery mix. Good grief! Not a blizzard or bad storm....just some snow/rain/freezing rain. These people were not happy and they were in a hurry. You can imagine what it would have been like had there been an actual emergency! Not pretty!

 

Sharon, I also felt that we were kindred spirits on this subject! :D

 

Lisa

[Sharon in SC]

There's one thing I don't understand though... from your perspective, is there any accountability for those who claim to have a message from the Lord? When a person claims to have received something from the Lord, informs others of this message, and is found out to be incorrect... what do you do with that? If that person comes out again with another prophesy, will you be just as likely to believe it again? Is there ever a point where you conclude that these are just thoughts, concerns, fears, emotions coming from a well-meaning individual, rather than divine communication?

 

As far as needing to hear a message from a number of prophets, is there a biblical basis for that?... in the Bible, those who were prophets were often the lone voice for God, weren't they? And a multitude of similar messages weren't needed, because that message was always correct, always directly from the Lord Himself. The idea that one can know that a person is speaking prophetically because lots of other godly people have been saying the same thing... where do you get a biblical basis for that belief?

 

Well, first of all, I think you're reading much more into my post than what I'm saying. :) I did not say, at all, that I *need* to hear a message from a number of prophets. I simply shared that, in this particular instance, I am hearing from more than a couple of respected sources that troubled times are ahead. There is a difference.

 

Addititionally, I did not say that I know any one of them is speaking prophetically because lots of them are saying the same thing. What I was trying to convey is that, in light of the numerous messages of similar nature that happen to be coming from people I believe to walk closely with the Lord, I am all the more inclined to suspect there is something to the messages. That is NOT to say that I would not carry similar sentiment in another situation where there happenend to be just ONE voice with a message. Really, it's irrelevant to me from how many voices a message may happen to come. In ALL cases, for me, it boils down to whether or not the Holy Spirit bears witness to my spirit (one voice or many voices).

 

For terms of accountability, I'll go back to something I wrote in my previous post when I spoke of human flesh being fallible. The bottomline is this - I believe there are many beautiful gifts of the Spirit that God desires to impart to/through His people. That human filter is fallible. I believe there will be times when we operate in the flesh thinking we're operating in the spirit. That's OK with me for the reason I touched on earlier - there is ALWAYS the power of the Holy Spirit to guide, direct, counsel, watch over. I've had people in my life speak things that they believed were of the Lord but, ultimately, God revealed to me was not of Him. At least as often, I've had people speak things in my life that were undeniably (that unction of the Holy Spirit) God. Having experienced both, I'll weather some human moments for those precious moments of God all day long because I have the assurance that, through it all, it is God whose hand is upon me and enabling me to respond with accordance to His plan for my life.

 

Regarding credibility - I have witnessed individuals who have shared a Word from the Lord that clearly was truth. In contrast, certainly, there are individuals who walk in the name of a gift of prophecy but repeatedly come across as being all flesh. In those cases, I am not inclined to give them a listening spiritual ear, so to speak trusting that if I should I would know to do so. Then, there may be others that appear to be "wrong" when, in actuality, they're not for reasons we have yet to identify. I trust the Lord to enable me to know how to process all case scenarios understanding that I, too, could be wrong because I am....human. For me, it really does all boil down to attempting, each day, to walk closely enough with the Lord to have ears to hear and eyes to see what He would have me to knowing there will be days when I, and others, will fall short. We will, afterall, not be perfect until the Lord's return and always only through Christ. Meanwhile, as we do our best to yield ourselves to Him and His power, He's here to enable us to regroup when we fall short and press on.

[katemary63]

For those who believe that end times are coming, the fact that earlier people believed this and were wrong, doesn't mean that it won't happen in the future.

 

 

 

(That doesn't mean it is now. That doesn't mean I believe Wilkerson. And hard times doesn't equal end times. America historically has been well insulated from adversity compared to the rest of the world. Times could get tough here without the world ending.)

 

Sara, I AM one of those people. I believe in the "endtimes" will come someday. But your last paragraph was exactly my point. Especially the one about Americans being well insulated from adversity. There are cultures that during times in thier history, would have been quite sure that the endtimes had already come.

[Sharon in SC]

Sara, I AM one of those people. I believe in the "endtimes" will come someday. But your last paragraph was exactly my point. Especially the one about Americans being well insulated from adversity. There are cultures that during times in thier history, would have been quite sure that the endtimes had already come.

 

For me, it's not so important to identify whether we're in the end times or not but to simply be prepared for whatever is ahead.

[Sharon in SC]

You don't have to be a prophet or anticipating doom and gloom to pick up on the preparedness talk that is all around us. Maybe I notice it more because I'm LDS, but I'm seeing a lot of interest in stocking up on basics. And not just from religious people.

 

Exactly.

[katemary63]

I strongly encourage those who are inclined to trust David Wilkerson's prophecy to google his name and read the past predictions he has made, whether or not they were fulfilled, and consider in light of that whether this current prophesy is trustworthy.

 

I will also add that it is not lack of faith to disbelieve one man's idea of what is coming in the future, because we are not called to have faith in man, but in the Lord. Not everyone who claims to have a message from God is correct about that.

 

:iagree: I am a Christian. But I am also very skeptical of these types of preachers and always look into thier records, especially where they conflict with scripture. It is my belief that a "prophet" who sets a specific date or time frame for his predictions or who had been wrong entirely, is a "false prophet". Wilkerson has done both. If there is not a gigantic fire in NY area in the very near future, you all should stop following or trusting in ANYTHING he says. ( he has already predicted this fire once, long ago and admitted he was wrong and that his "prophecy" was NOT of God.

[OnTheBrink]

:iagree: I am a Christian. But I am also very skeptical of these types of preachers and always look into thier records, especially where they conflict with scripture. It is my belief that a "prophet" who sets a specific date or time frame for his predictions or who had been wrong entirely, is a "false prophet". Wilkerson has done both. If there is not a gigantic fire in NY area in the very near future, you all should stop following or trusting in ANYTHING he says. ( he has already predicted this fire once, long ago and admitted he was wrong and that his "prophecy" was NOT of God.

 

:iagree:

 

I agree with your agreement. LOL

 

And, I wanted to add: there's nothing wrong with being prepared. God tells people in the Bible to store up for the time of famine. He also says to trust Him. For me personally, it's finding that balance between wise preparedness vs trust in His provision that I struggle with. So, I've stocked up on canned goods, flour, frozen foods and will be buying some meat bundles next week or so. We can only do what we can do and hope for the best.

[Erica in PA]

 

I understand what you are saying, but we will have to agree to disagree on this issue. I want very much to say this kindly... I truly believe that approaching prophecy in that way puts far too much faith in man's ability both to accurately present and *receive* God's modern day messages to mankind (i.e. sensing in oneself which messages are truly from God and which are not, both in the preacher and the listener). From my perspective, it also allows people to get quite a distance from the contents of Scripture, which as you said, is the only authoritative Word from God.

 

One unfortunate effect of this perspective is that it casts doubt on the truth of Christianity in the eyes of the world, when so many of the supposed Words from God are shown to be in error. I do not mean to be unkind here. But it troubles me to see Christians jump on bandwagons on unbiblical ground, and ultimately look like fools to the rest of the world when the supposed event doesn't come to pass (I am not saying that this is what you are doing in this case, Sharon, but I'm speaking of Christians in general who do this.) I would much prefer to put my faith in Scripture alone-- since it is God's infalliable Word, it will never be proven wrong.

 

I believe that pastors and Christian leaders should stick to what Scripture teaches. If I had a pastor who claimed to have special revelation about specifically what was coming to America, I would leave that church without looking back, no matter how much I admired him personally.

 

I just read this blog post from John Piper regarding this prophecy from Wilkerson, and it reflects my viewpoint well:

 

http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1670_Testing_David_Wilkersons_Prophecy/

[Sharon in SC]

... I truly believe that approaching prophecy in that way puts far too much faith in man's ability both to accurately present and *receive* God's modern day messages to mankind (i.e. sensing in oneself which messages are truly from God and which are not, both in the preacher and the listener). From my perspective, it also allows people to get quite a distance from the contents of Scripture, which as you said, is the only authoritative Word from God.

 

One unfortunate effect of this perspective is that it casts doubt on the truth of Christianity in the eyes of the world, when so many of the supposed Words from God are shown to be in error. I do not mean to be unkind here. But it troubles me to see Christians jump on bandwagons on unbiblical ground, and ultimately look like fools to the rest of the world when the supposed event doesn't come to pass (I am not saying that this is what you are doing in this case, Sharon, but I'm speaking of Christians in general who do this.) I would much prefer to put my faith in Scripture alone-- since it is God's infalliable Word, it will never be proven wrong.

 

I believe that pastors and Christian leaders should stick to what Scripture teaches. If I had a pastor who claimed to have special revelation about specifically what was coming to America, I would leave that church without looking back, no matter how much I admired him personally.

 

I just read this blog post from John Piper regarding this prophecy from Wilkerson, and it reflects my viewpoint well:

 

http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1670_Testing_David_Wilkersons_Prophecy/

 

Erica, certainly we can agree to disagree. :grouphug: I suspect, as much as anything, it may be equally a situation where one's perception is reality. :)

 

You wrote: "approaching prophecy in that way puts far too much faith in man's ability both to accurately present and *receive* God's modern day messages to mankind" and "it also allows people to get quite a distance from the contents of Scripture". To be very clear, in actuality, (as I've *tried* to communicate in my posts), my ultimate faith and confidence is in *God's* (not man's) ability to speak to *me* and it is the very words of scripture and scripture alone upon which I base my faith.

 

I think what we have here is a situation where our interpretations of scripture differ enough from one another that we're left on differing pages, so to speak. When I read about the gifts of the Holy Spirit in Acts and Ephesians 4:11-16, I embrace that as being made available to the New Testament generaton as well as mine. Nowhere do I read that it was just for them and, therefore, I choose to attempt to walk in response to those gifts that I believe the Lord desires to impart to his people, today.

 

You wrote: "But it troubles me to see Christians jump on bandwagons on unbiblical ground, and ultimately look like fools to the rest of the world when the supposed event doesn't come to pass (I am not saying that this is what you are doing in this case, Sharon, but I'm speaking of Christians in general who do this.) I would much prefer to put my faith in Scripture alone-- since it is God's infalliable Word, it will never be proven wrong."

 

Erica, I agree - bandwagons on unbiblical ground is unhealthy. Because my confidence is in the power of the written word of God (scripture), I feel free to be open to the gift of prophecy. Based on my understanding of scripture, it is my belief that prophets' messages are not to be regarded as infallible but are to be subject to the evaluation of the church, other prophets, and most importantly, God's Word. The church body is required to discern and test whether their witness is from God (1 Co 14:29-33; 1 Jn 4:1). To reiterate - all prophecy must be tested according to the standard of Biblical truth. Believers should look for its fulfillment, preparing themselves for the possibility that the prophecy may or may not be fulfilled. Bottomline, if what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. (Deut 18:22)

 

There will be human failure. Basically, from what I see, it boils down to whether or not one chooses to embrace the belief that NT gifts were intended for all and not just the NT generation church. The beautiful thing? It's OK (that we operate under differing interpretations) because it's all about the condition of our *heart*. As long as we carry an obedient heart before the Lord, He's pleased. Thankfully, we can rest assured that His kingdom purposes *are* being established on earth as they stand in heaven, no matter what.

 

:grouphug:, Erica

[mamakven]

Sharon- i get what you are saying- that if you get the same or similar predictions from more than one reputable person who are unrelated, you'd tend to trust that a bit more. I agree.

 

and why would "I" take this guy seriously whom i've never heard of till yesterday? Because he's obviously got a good line of communication with God, and God may very well be using him to help believers get a jumpstart on a particular judgment headed our way. My *PERSONAL* feeling on this is that this guy is NOT lying, that he's NOT faking it, but that perhaps his timing is a little wonky.. I think he's doing his best to serve God.

 

 

And now, don't get me wrong, i'm not cashing in our retirement and using it to buy MRE's :D BUT i'm definately using this as an opportunity to jump start what i've already intendended to do, what i beleive the Bible calls believers to do, and that's to be PREPARED for emergency!! For me, that means acquiring WATER! and buyign just a few extra non perishables each time we go to the store. That's it! but that's SOMETHING, kwim??

 

And honestly, i feel like a divine judgement has been a long time coming... the way our society is just blows me away... i know its ALWAYS been wicked, i know this is nOT new stuff, but wow... its definately been in the forefront of my mind lately!

Rebecca

[katemary63]

 

I understand what you are saying, but we will have to agree to disagree on this issue. I want very much to say this kindly... I truly believe that approaching prophecy in that way puts far too much faith in man's ability both to accurately present and *receive* God's modern day messages to mankind (i.e. sensing in oneself which messages are truly from God and which are not, both in the preacher and the listener). From my perspective, it also allows people to get quite a distance from the contents of Scripture, which as you said, is the only authoritative Word from God.

 

One unfortunate effect of this perspective is that it casts doubt on the truth of Christianity in the eyes of the world, when so many of the supposed Words from God are shown to be in error. I do not mean to be unkind here. But it troubles me to see Christians jump on bandwagons on unbiblical ground, and ultimately look like fools to the rest of the world when the supposed event doesn't come to pass (I am not saying that this is what you are doing in this case, Sharon, but I'm speaking of Christians in general who do this.) I would much prefer to put my faith in Scripture alone-- since it is God's infalliable Word, it will never be proven wrong.

 

I believe that pastors and Christian leaders should stick to what Scripture teaches. If I had a pastor who claimed to have special revelation about specifically what was coming to America, I would leave that church without looking back, no matter how much I admired him personally.

 

 

:iagree::iagree:I agree 100% with what you have written. Especially the fact that so many famous preachers make predictions that DON'T come true and how that makes US ( All Christians) look to non-believers. We are supposed to be standing on the validilty of the Word and Charactor of the One True God. When we talk about coming earthquakes, fires etc, or even trust in a personal "word" from a friend that turns out to be wrong, we cast doubt on ALL OUR BELIEFS to the non-believer and DESTROY our validity and, in thier minds, that of God and his Word. Our testimony becomes worthless.

 

I heard this story on the radio in the Chicago Area. I am sorry that I can't remember exactly who told it. My guess is it was James Dobson, but it could have been someone from Moody. Those are the shows I listened to at the time.

 

A woman evangelist was diagnosed with a serious cancer. She was close friends with another, male (very famous) evangelist. (The radio speaker did not reveal this name but said that it would be someone everyone recognized.) The man "recieved a word from God" for his dear friend. He was so thrilled with it that he bought a plane ticket and went to her side to tell her personally. He told her that God had specifically told him that she would be healed of this cancer and be totally fine. They both rejoiced. They both believed.

 

She died.

 

The radio speaker, ( again, I believe it was Dobson, but can't be certain) asked this question. If a well know, well respected, evangelist, christian book author, Bible scholar, and leader of a megachurch THINKS he has a "word" from God, and really doesn't but can't tell, then how can ANYBODY???? The male evangelist was devastated that he had been wrong.

 

A employee of my DH's met a man at church. ( her's, not ours!) She had a dream that this was God's intended husband for her. She consulted with her PASTOR who told her that he confirmed her beliefs and that God gave him a "word" that this was to be her husband. Several other people at her church told her the same thing. She told EVERYONE she knew about it. ( That's how we found out about it) My poor DH was so concerned for her he had a talk with her and urged her to be cautious. The guy turned out to be a scam artist and after a year long relationship, robbed her blind. She was devastated and humiliated for being such a fool.

 

People have subconcious motives that they don't realized are playing a big part in thier experiences and beliefs. You can't trust esoteric experiences, period. You can only trust the Bible. How do you think these "prophesies" and "words" make "us" Christians look to the world??? The answer is, like fools. Personally, the only "word" or prophesy I would believe would be one I got myself from God that was aimed directly at myself. And even then, I'd be skeptical. :D

[Erica in PA]

 

Erica, certainly we can agree to disagree. :grouphug: I suspect, as much as anything, it may be equally a situation where one's perception is reality. :)

 

You wrote: "approaching prophecy in that way puts far too much faith in man's ability both to accurately present and *receive* God's modern day messages to mankind" and "it also allows people to get quite a distance from the contents of Scripture". To be very clear, in actuality, (as I've *tried* to communicate in my posts), my ultimate faith and confidence is in *God's* (not man's) ability to speak to *me* and it is the very words of scripture and scripture alone upon which I base my faith.

 

I think what we have here is a situation where our interpretations of scripture differ enough from one another that we're left on differing pages, so to speak. When I read about the gifts of the Holy Spirit in Acts and Ephesians 4:11-16, I embrace that as being made available to the New Testament generaton as well as mine. Nowhere do I read that it was just for them and, therefore, I choose to attempt to walk in response to those gifts that I believe the Lord desires to impart to his people, today.

 

You wrote: "But it troubles me to see Christians jump on bandwagons on unbiblical ground, and ultimately look like fools to the rest of the world when the supposed event doesn't come to pass (I am not saying that this is what you are doing in this case, Sharon, but I'm speaking of Christians in general who do this.) I would much prefer to put my faith in Scripture alone-- since it is God's infalliable Word, it will never be proven wrong."

 

Erica, I agree - bandwagons on unbiblical ground is unhealthy. Because my confidence is in the power of the written word of God (scripture), I feel free to be open to the gift of prophecy. Based on my understanding of scripture, it is my belief that prophets' messages are not to be regarded as infallible but are to be subject to the evaluation of the church, other prophets, and most importantly, God's Word. The church body is required to discern and test whether their witness is from God (1 Co 14:29-33; 1 Jn 4:1). To reiterate - all prophecy must be tested according to the standard of Biblical truth. Believers should look for its fulfillment, preparing themselves for the possibility that the prophecy may or may not be fulfilled. Bottomline, if what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. (Deut 18:22)

 

There will be human failure. Basically, from what I see, it boils down to whether or not one chooses to embrace the belief that NT gifts were intended for all and not just the NT generation church. The beautiful thing? It's OK (that we operate under differing interpretations) because it's all about the condition of our *heart*. As long as we carry an obedient heart before the Lord, He's pleased. Thankfully, we can rest assured that His kingdom purposes *are* being established on earth as they stand in heaven, no matter what.

 

:grouphug:, Erica

 

:grouphug: to you too, Sharon. I'm glad that we can discuss this without becoming defensive or angry with each other. I'll just close with saying this: The primary reason that this sort of thing really matters to me, on a practical level and not just theological, is that these types of public prophesies really become well-publicized in today's world, and people all over the world will be watching to see if this well-regarded Christian leader's words are fulfilled, especially when so many Christians are voicing their belief that this is a message from God-- and if this is not fulfilled, the Bible and the name of Christ will both take the hit, for that human mistake, in many people's eyes, not just that particular man or those who judged him to be a true prophet. To me that creates an unnecessary stumbling block to faith in Christ, and as someone who is yearning for people to come to Christ, it pains me to see that.

[Sharon in SC]

 

:grouphug: to you too, Sharon. I'm glad that we can discuss this without becoming defensive or angry with each other. I'll just close with saying this: The primary reason that this sort of thing really matters to me, on a practical level and not just theological, is that these types of public prophesies really become well-publicized in today's world, and people all over the world will be watching to see if this well-regarded Christian leader's words are fulfilled, especially when so many Christians are voicing their belief that this is a message from God-- and if this is not fulfilled, the Bible and the name of Christ will both take the hit, for that human mistake, in many people's eyes, not just that particular man or those who judged him to be a true prophet. To me that creates an unnecessary stumbling block to faith in Christ, and as someone who is yearning for people to come to Christ, it pains me to see that.

 

I can appreciate your concern, Erica. For someone who carries my particular belief set, it's comforting to know that God knew we would be fallible in our attempts to utilize the gifts He so graciously bestows upon us and, yet, He chooses to use us anyway. Gotta believe He's able to contend with the potential repercussions of our humanness. :)

[katemary63]

 

The primary reason that this sort of thing really matters to me, on a practical level and not just theological, is that these types of public prophesies really become well-publicized in today's world, and people all over the world will be watching to see if this well-regarded Christian leader's words are fulfilled, especially when so many Christians are voicing their belief that this is a message from God-- and if this is not fulfilled, the Bible and the name of Christ will both take the hit, for that human mistake, in many people's eyes, not just that particular man or those who judged him to be a true prophet. To me that creates an unnecessary stumbling block to faith in Christ, and as someone who is yearning for people to come to Christ, it pains me to see that.

 

:iagree:Can someone show me in the Bible where a "prophet" was wrong and still reguarded as a "prophet of God"? If there is a Biblical precident, then maybe I'm wrong. But I don't think there is. Predictions about future events made in the name of God had better be spot on or the predictor got his info from somewhere else and should not be trusted about anything. How can anyone argue with this?

[Sharon in SC]

 

:iagree:Can someone show me in the Bible where a "prophet" was wrong and still reguarded as a "prophet of God"? If there is a Biblical precident, then maybe I'm wrong. But I don't think there is. Predictions about future events made in the name of God had better be spot on or the predictor got his info from somewhere else and should not be trusted about anything. How can anyone argue with this?

 

Let me make it known that the intent of any of my posts in this thread has not been to speak to whether or not *I* consider David Wilkerson to be a prophet or not. (Honestly, I don't know enough about him to begin to say.) I have chosen, rather, to speak generally regarding when individuals feel they've heard a Word from the Lord and how we, as fellow believers, may try to process those "Words".

 

You wrote: "Predictions about future events made in the name of God had better be spot on or the predictor got his info from somewhere else and should not be trusted about anything."

 

God wrote (Deut 18:22): "If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously." That passage goes on to read, "You should not fear him." It would seem to me that, in this passage, God is addressing those situations where the prophet does misspeak, for lack of a better word, yet God still refers to him as a prophet.

[Spy Car]

Coming from outside the faith I'm sure I'm prone to misunderstanding many aspects of Christian thought, but I thought (perhaps wrongly) that Jesus was rather clear in his teachings in the Sermon on the Mount? Or am I missing something?

 

Bill

 

 

Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?

 

Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?

 

And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?

 

And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

 

But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

 

Therefore do not be anxious, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?

 

For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all.

 

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

 

Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

[katemary63]

 

 

God wrote (Deut 18:22): "If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously." That passage goes on to read, "You should not fear him." It would seem to me that, in this passage, God is addressing those situations where the prophet does misspeak, for lack of a better word, yet God still refers to him as a prophet.

 

Oops, you started 2 verses too late. In Deut 18:20, God says:

"But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die."

 

Remember the word "or" means that the last part of the sentence applies to both beginning parts of the sentence. So, a prophet that speaks presumptuously shall die. I don't think you can say that God is saying he is still a prophet "of God".

 

Also, in your own verse, it is clear that a prophet who does speak "presumptuously" should NOT be listened to. That's what the part about not fearing him means. And you can't possibly think that God is saying that you should fear some of his prophesies but not others? How are you supposed to tell? No, this is essentially a description of a false prophet, someone not to be trusted.

Edited March 13, 2009 by katemary63

[Sharon in SC]

Coming from outside the faith I'm sure I'm prone to misunderstanding many aspects of Christian thought, but I thought (perhaps wrongly) that Jesus was rather clear in his teachings in the Sermon on the Mount? Or am I missing something?

 

Bill

 

Absolutely which is why we are to not fear the future. I can't tell by your post if you're thinking that, in light of this passage, folks should not be looking to stockpile or the like. First of all, stockpiling should not be equated with fear. For me, it's a matter of perceived need. I grocery shop for a week or two at a time based on the perceived nutritional needs for my family for that time frame. My intent to "stockpile" for a month is based on a perceived potential need. It is, however, most definitely not based on fear. All the while, I rejoice in the confidence that God will be faithful to provide for our every need now, tomorrow, and in the days to come.

 

Totally disregard this if it is off base in terms of any point you were otherwise trying to make! :tongue_smilie:

[Sharon in SC]

Oops, you started 2 verses too late. In Deut 18:20, God says:

"But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die."

 

Remember the word "or" means that the last part of the sentence applies to both beginning parts of the sentence. So, a prophet that speaks presumptuously shall die. I don't think you can say that God is saying he is still a prophet "of God".

 

Also, in your own verse, it is clear that a prophet who does speak "presumptuously" should NOT be listened to. That's what the part about not fearing him means. And you can't possibly think that God is saying that you should fear some of his prophesies but not others? How are you supposed to tell? No, this is essentially a description of a false prophet, someone not to be trusted.

 

You're absolutely correct (regarding the truths contained in the previous two scriptures) and on behalf of modern day prophets who are under the new covenant I'll offer up thanks that we don't live in OT times.

 

As far as the passage I posted, I was simply trying to draw attention to the fact that God referred to the same person as prophet before the presumptuous words as well as after. I do not proport to be a Bible scholar nor was I trying to debate what should happen to prophets who misspeak.

 

In terms of fearing some prophesies and not others all I know to say is this: I, personally, believe that man, today, can receive prophetic words from God on behalf of His people. Man is fallible. There will be mistakes. God continues to speak, despite these facts. He chooses through whom He wants to speak. Thankfully, God is control of managing the repercussions both within the person (prophet?) who mis-spoke in those instances and in the lives of the listeners.

 

Those that make "mistakes"? If I've ultimately placed my trust and confidence in the power of the Lord at work in my own life to guide and direct, then I'm no worse for wear. It's if I were to place my trust and confidence in any man, which is never wise, that I would suffer. Certainly, anyone who has been proven to be a false prophet should not be "feared".

 

In peace,

Sharon

[Spy Car]

Absolutely which is why we are to not fear the future. I can't tell by your post if you're thinking that, in light of this passage, folks should not be looking to stockpile or the like. First of all, stockpiling should not be equated with fear. For me, it's a matter of perceived need. I grocery shop for a week or two at a time based on the perceived nutritional needs for my family for that time frame. My intent to "stockpile" for a month is based on a perceived potential need. It is, however, most definitely not based on fear. All the while, I rejoice in the confidence that God will be faithful to provide for our every need now, tomorrow, and in the days to come.

 

Totally disregard this if it is off base in terms of any point you were otherwise trying to make! :tongue_smilie:

 

My interest is not telling other people what they should do or not do (although I have personal feelings about that) I'm just trying to better understand Christian thought.

 

I don't have the encyclopedic knowledge of the New Testament that many here do, and I understand taking scripture out of context is potentially dangerous especially when done by someone as un-schooled as me, but stockpiling food based on a doomsday prophesy strike me (who's no expert) as not being in the spirit of Jesus' teachings in Matthew.

 

It's tough, because if you extent the teaching too far (which I think would not be fair) I suppose a person (not me) could that this passage to an illogical conclusion that even marketing, or planting a field was "un-faithful" behavior. This is not my understanding of this scripture, just to be plain.

 

But I do wonder if laying in supplies out of fear (or use any other modifier here) of a cataclysm isn't pretty on point with what Jesus is teaching about in this passage.

 

Like I say, I'm no expert, I'm just asking.

 

Bill

[Blueridge]

I went back to David Wilkerson's blog site today, and the entries he has made since last Saturday have been quite encouraging. Here are a few snips from today and yesterday:

"...I am not a prophet. I am a local pastor. I must ask myself what I am to do in light of hearing the warning from God. What should I say to those under my pastoral care? First, I want my people to clearly hear the word. What is it saying and what is it not saying. Some have heard of fires and looting and their hearts are filled with fear. I am to assure my people that God is always completely in control. God is sovereign. Nothing takes place outside of his notice and counsel, and all things happen for his ultimate, highest glory. Even in the most troubling of times, our God knows exactly what he is doing..."

"...Likewise today, when panic strikes in America – when the ominous news begins to send shock waves of fear across the land, and hysteria mounts – God’s people won’t be able to avoid feeling the huge wave of human anxiety. That’s right – I will feel it, you will feel it; all Christians are going to feel it. Such feelings are inevitable; it’s simply human to have this kind of reaction to such terrible chaos. Yet, at the same time, God will put within us the resources needed to take immediate control of every fearful thought and bring it to the truth of Christ. And his Spirit will fill our very beings with his perfect peace!.."

 

I thought those were very well said.

Ginger

[Sharon in SC]

But I do wonder if laying in supplies out of fear (or use any other modifier here) of a cataclysm isn't pretty on point with what Jesus is teaching about in this passage.

 

Like I say, I'm no expert, I'm just asking.

 

Bill

 

It is scripturally safe to say that we are to not fear or worry about what tomorrow will bring. You are on point, there, Bill. :) I am hardpressed to believe that God would find fault with those who choose to stock up on essentials because they feel they have valid reason to believe the day could come when those essentials may not be readily available any more than I believe he finds faults with those who purchase essentials because they know they will not be available in their home pantry in the next week. :001_smile:

[Spy Car]

It is scripturally safe to say that we are to not fear or worry about what tomorrow will bring. You are on point, there, Bill. :) I am hardpressed to believe that God would find fault with those who choose to stock up on essentials because they feel they have valid reason to believe the day could come when those essentials may not be readily available any more than I believe he finds faults with those who purchase essentials because they know they will not be available in their home pantry in the next week. :001_smile:

 

But didn't (and I want to tread lightly here because I understand the sensitivity of scripture being tossed around as a debating point) Jesus fault those who would act in such a fashion as "Ye of little faith"?

 

I am I thinking wrongly here?

 

Bill

[Sharon in SC]

But didn't (and I want to tread lightly here because I understand the sensitivity of scripture being tossed around as a debating point) Jesus fault those who would act in such a fashion as "Ye of little faith"?

 

I am I thinking wrongly here?

 

Bill

 

Bill, I believe the crux of this matter boils down to the condition of the heart. No one has second guessed the practicality of earning a wage, using it to buy clothing/food, and possibly saving the rest. Yet, someone of "little faith" would be the person striving to do those exact same things out of fear or anxiety that they'll not have enough. Therein lies the difference. It is ultimately a matter of where we are putting our trust for provisions - ourselves or the Lord. Personally, I believe that my resources are God's first and it is my responsibility to be a good steward of them. I know from where my help comes. That comes from understanding God's intended message you shared - we are not to worry about these things because *He* will care for us all the more better than He cares for the birds or the lilies of the field or the grass.

 

As far as stockpiling goes - again, I have to keep coming back to the analogy of the home pantry. If I shouldn't purchase goods up to a point I believe necessary to weather any unforeseen but possible calamity, why purchase goods at all? Living in the southeast (hurricane country), to not stock up on bread, milk, batteries, etc could be considered as foolishness. No one has questioned, spiritually, the practice of stockpiling prior to a pending hurricane. I don't see this as any different. A calamity is a calamity. Manna in the morning would be nice but that's not how God is choosing to operate just now. :tongue_smilie: I purchase for a week or two or a month depending upon the perceived need. There's no fear in that. For me, it's just common sense.

[Spy Car]

Bill, I believe the crux of this matter boils down to the condition of the heart. No one has second guessed the practicality of earning a wage, using it to buy clothing/food, and possibly saving the rest. Yet, someone of "little faith" would be the person striving to do those exact same things out of fear or anxiety that they'll not have enough. Therein lies the difference. It is ultimately a matter of where we are putting our trust for provisions - ourselves or the Lord. Personally, I believe that my resources are God's first and it is my responsibility to be a good steward of them. I know from where my help comes. That comes from understanding God's intended message you shared - we are not to worry about these things because *He* will care for us all the more better than He cares for the birds or the lilies of the field or the grass.

 

As far as stockpiling goes - again, I have to keep coming back to the analogy of the home pantry. If I shouldn't purchase goods up to a point I believe necessary to weather any unforeseen but possible calamity, why purchase goods at all? Living in the southeast (hurricane country), to not stock up on bread, milk, batteries, etc could be considered as foolishness. No one has questioned, spiritually, the practice of stockpiling prior to a pending hurricane. I don't see this as any different. A calamity is a calamity. Manna in the morning would be nice but that's not how God is choosing to operate just now. :tongue_smilie: I purchase for a week or two or a month depending upon the perceived need. There's no fear in that. For me, it's just common sense.

 

I understand you. A reasonable person could have provisions on hand in case of an emergency (say an earthquake kit here in California) and I think that could be described as an exercise in prudence and not something driven by fear-mongering. And this later condition, is in my estimation, is what is going on here.

 

Bill

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

You know what Bill, I think you have a good point. There are, and have been, Christians who use those passages that you have quoted to totally and completely rely on God's providential care for every single thing. Or at least they try. Mother Teresa is one example, Hudson Taylor another.

 

It does seem contradictory to say you believe God will provide and yet take steps to insure that you are provided for. I guess one way to look at it would be to understand that God does not work in a linear fashion, he works and exists outside of time and space. Some might say that the money that we are making today to stock up on resources, could very well be the way God is providing for our tomorrow. The Bible does tell us it is wrong not to provide for the needs of our families.

 

On the other hand, others would point to plenty of scriptures that tell us not to worry about food or material things. If we truly lived not asking what we will eat or wear tomorrow, we might find ourselves living lives of extreme poverty. There are people who live like that, believing that God has called them to that life.

 

This is one of the many paradoxes of Christianity. Like all paradoxes there is truth found on both sides of the coin. I think most practicing Christians do their best to balance on the edge of the coin.

 

One of my favorite scriptures is Psalm 30:8

 

Give me nieither poverty nor riches,

but give me only my daily bread.

Otherwise, I may have too much and disown you and say, "Who is the Lord?"

Or I may become poor and steal and so dishonor the name of my God.

[HSMom2One]

In terms of fearing some prophesies and not others all I know to say is this: I, personally, believe that man, today, can receive prophetic words from God on behalf of His people. Man is fallible. There will be mistakes. God continues to speak, despite these facts. He chooses through whom He wants to speak. Thankfully, God is control of managing the repercussions both within the person (prophet?) who mis-spoke in those instances and in the lives of the listeners.

 

Those that make "mistakes"? If I've ultimately placed my trust and confidence in the power of the Lord at work in my own life to guide and direct, then I'm no worse for wear. It's if I were to place my trust and confidence in any man, which is never wise, that I would suffer. Certainly, anyone who has been proven to be a false prophet should not be "feared".

 

In peace,

Sharon

 

:iagree:

Well said, well said. This is the belief that my family, our church and contemporaries all hold on to. There are too many people surrounding us that are receiving confirmation of the word of the Lord speaking to His people in these very critical days. Along with this, I have felt the prompting of the Holy Spirit for months now to be prepared both practically and spiritually. I have been storing up non-perishable food since last November.

 

We need to be prayed up and holding tightly to Him, trusting Him no matter what may or may not happen during our individual life span. I personally believe that we are living in days that are pointing toward the coming of Christ. We may or may not be living in the last days, but I do know that we each face our own last days here on earth. May we all be like Moses and pray that we gain hearts of wisdom regarding the use of that time. My prayer is that I will use my time, energies and resources in the best way possible.

 

As always, the main thing is to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength and love our neighbor as ourselves.

 

Blessings,

Lucinda

[Spy Car]

You know what Bill, I think you have a good point. There are, and have been, Christians who use those passages that you have quoted to totally and completely rely on God's providential care for every single thing. Or at least they try. Mother Teresa is one example, Hudson Taylor another.

 

It does seem contradictory to say you believe God will provide and yet take steps to insure that you are provided for. I guess one way to look at it would be to understand that God does not work in a linear fashion, he works and exists outside of time and space. Some might say that the money that we are making today to stock up on resources, could very well be the way God is providing for our tomorrow. The Bible does tell us it is wrong not to provide for the needs of our families.

 

On the other hand, others would point to plenty of scriptures that tell us not to worry about food or material things. If we truly lived not asking what we will eat or wear tomorrow, we might find ourselves living lives of extreme poverty. There are people who live like that, believing that God has called them to that life.

 

This is one of the many paradoxes of Christianity. Like all paradoxes there is truth found on both sides of the coin. I think most practicing Christians do their best to balance on the edge of the coin.

 

One of my favorite scriptures is Psalm 30:8

 

Give me nieither poverty nor riches,

but give me only my daily bread.

Otherwise, I may have too much and disown you and say, "Who is the Lord?"

Or I may become poor and steal and so dishonor the name of my God.

 

I feel like I want to start every post with a disclaimer acknowledging my own personal lack of authority in having opinions in matters of interpretation of other peoples sacred texts, so let me get that out of the way up front.

 

Personally, I'd be inclined to your "balancing on the edge of the coin" understanding of this passage. So the message wouldn't be give up and do nothing to provide for your family, or don't be prudent in saving for lean times, or anything of the sort.

 

The critical aspect of the passage from my reading (which may be wrong) is that one should not worry overly much, and one should not be filled with anxiety. And that Jesus' message is intended to be comforting, and to put people at ease.

 

Where this pastor (and the reactions he's created) seem to me to work directly against this message, and seem designed to cause high-anxiety (in fact, near panic). And that's were I'm having the difficulty.

 

Bill

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

Where this pastor (and the reactions he's created) seem to me to work directly against this message, and seem designed to cause high-anxiety (in fact, near panic). And that's were I'm having the difficulty.

 

Bill

 

I agree, it does seem counter-intuitive. But he is just a human being, like all Christians, and humans sometimes do irrational or irresponsible things, even when they mean well. That is why I thank God that forgiveness is one of the main tenets of Christianity. :-)

[Alenee]

I feel like I want to start every post with a disclaimer acknowledging my own personal lack of authority in having opinions in matters of interpretation of other peoples sacred texts, so let me get that out of the way up front.

 

Personally, I'd be inclined to your "balancing on the edge of the coin" understanding of this passage. So the message wouldn't be give up and do nothing to provide for your family, or don't be prudent in saving for lean times, or anything of the sort.

 

The critical aspect of the passage from my reading (which may be wrong) is that one should not worry overly much, and one should not be filled with anxiety. And that Jesus' message is intended to be comforting, and to put people at ease.

 

Where this pastor (and the reactions he's created) seem to me to work directly against this message, and seem designed to cause high-anxiety (in fact, near panic). And that's were I'm having the difficulty.

 

Bill

 

Bill,

 

Our pastor spoke recently on the same verses also found in Luke. His interpretation was that the passage is not about the food or clothing but that the focus is on worry and fear. It is futile to worry and fear because it does not do a single thing for you. Rather, trust that your Heavenly Father knows what your needs are and like the sparrow, which is of very little value by human standards, is provided for, we, His creation, are highly valued by Him and our *needs* will be provided for.

 

Jesus also spoke about being prudent with your money. There is the example of Joseph being raised up by God to prepare Egypt for the 7 years of famine. There is the manager that Jesus speaks of who did not prepare well....

 

There are many many examples in scripture where God reveals what our job is and what His provision is. The part that makes people stumble, imo, is how to separate the two and fully listen for God to lay on our hearts His plan and provision and how He would have us react.

[Spy Car]

Bill,

 

Our pastor spoke recently on the same verses also found in Luke. His interpretation was that the passage is not about the food or clothing but that the focus is on worry and fear. It is futile to worry and fear because it does not do a single thing for you. Rather, trust that your Heavenly Father knows what your needs are and like the sparrow, which is of very little value by human standards, is provided for, we, His creation, are highly valued by Him and our *needs* will be provided for.

 

 

So it seems like I've understood these passage just as your pastor does, or close enough that I'm not missing the point entirely.

 

So if Jesus is teaching not to panic and not to be filled with fear and anxiety and worry about tomorrow (and where tomorrows meals will come from) and this pastor, David Wilkerson, due to some "prophetic vision" he's had of a catastrophe of a thousand fires consuming the land is telling people to do exactly the opposite, isn't one of these two approaches scripturally unsound? And I don't mean Jesus' :D

 

Bill

[OnTheBrink]

 

It does seem contradictory to say you believe God will provide and yet take steps to insure that you are provided for. I guess one way to look at it would be to understand that God does not work in a linear fashion, he works and exists outside of time and space. Some might say that the money that we are making today to stock up on resources, could very well be the way God is providing for our tomorrow. The Bible does tell us it is wrong not to provide for the needs of our families.

 

On the other hand, others would point to plenty of scriptures that tell us not to worry about food or material things. If we truly lived not asking what we will eat or wear tomorrow, we might find ourselves living lives of extreme poverty. There are people who live like that, believing that God has called them to that life.

 

This is one of the many paradoxes of Christianity. Like all paradoxes there is truth found on both sides of the coin. I think most practicing Christians do their best to balance on the edge of the coin.

 

 

 

God says not to worry about material things, food, etc. He never says you shouldn't buy the things you need, or that you shouldn't prepare for emergencies. He also says if you don't work, you don't eat. I think it's an erroneous perception of Scripture to say that working, buying provisions, meeting material needs is an indicator of a lack of faith. It's really an act of obedience.

[Sharon in SC]

Jesus also spoke about being prudent with your money. There is the example of Joseph being raised up by God to prepare Egypt for the 7 years of famine. There is the manager that Jesus speaks of who did not prepare well....

 

 

 

Joseph is a perfect example on a couple of fronts:

1) God revealed through a dream that there would be 7 years of feast followed by 7 years of famine. This was not to panic anyone but to enable them to prepare

2) Joseph responded by using the time of feast to store up for the time of famine. This was pleasing to the Lord.

[Spy Car]

Joseph is a perfect example on a couple of fronts:

1) God revealed through a dream that there would be 7 years of feast followed by 7 years of famine. This was not to panic anyone but to enable them to prepare

2) Joseph responded by using the time of feast to store up for the time of famine. This was pleasing to the Lord.

 

Yes, but the Egyptians who stored up grain were gentiles and outside of God's covenant, no?

 

And to return to Matthew 6:32, doesn't Jesus instruct specifically NOT to do as the gentiles do in these matters?

 

Bill

[Sharon in SC]

Yes, but the Egyptians who stored up grain were gentiles and outside of God's covenant, no?

 

And to return to Matthew 6:32, doesn't Jesus instruct specifically NOT to do as the gentiles do in these matters?

 

Bill

 

I don't believe God's directive in Matthew was speaking to the storage of grain in Joseph's day. :) It was that storage, prompted by *God's* revelation through a dream, that led to ultimate provision for His people (remember Joseph's family reunion in their time of need?)

[Spy Car]

I don't believe God's directive in Matthew was speaking to the storage of grain in Joseph's day. :)

 

I could be totally misunderstanding this, but I though Jesus was clearly speaking about precisely this thing of thing in Matthew (and Luke).

 

It was that storage, prompted by *God's* revelation through a dream, that led to ultimate provision for His people (remember Joseph's family reunion in their time of need?)

 

It, of course, also lead to the enslavement of his people in the land of Egypt.

 

Bill

[Sharon in SC]

 

It, of course, also lead to the enslavement of his people in the land of Egypt.

 

Bill

 

and, ultimately, their Exodus with great riches (fulfilling God's promise to Abraham that his descendants would leave their exile with great riches.)

[Spy Car]

and, ultimately, their Exodus with great riches (fulfilling God's promise to Abraham that his descendants would leave their exile with great riches.)

 

and ultimately...I have a feeling I'll lose this game :lol:

 

Bill

[Sharon in SC]

It, of course, also lead to the enslavement of his people in the land of Egypt.

 

Bill

 

Bill, I think it important at this point, in light of your statement here, to step back and take a broader picture of Joseph's testimony. The day he was sold into slavery by his brothers is a perfect example of God's care and provision. Joseph later told his brothers, "You intended to harm me but God intended it for good, the saving of many lives." (Gen 45:5)(This speaks to the fact that many times God overrules the evil actions of humans in order to carry out His will.)

 

You see, except that Joseph was in position in Egypt to provide grain to them, Jacob's (his father) family would have perished. As it was, while their migration to Egypt did ultimately lead to a time of slavery, God used Joseph's position in Egypt to, in Joseph's words, "preserve ...a remnant on earth and to save (their lives) by a great deliverance." (Gen 45:7) God worked through Joseph to preserve the covenant people through whom would come the Christ. Even though the Christ would come through Judah's descendant and not Joseph's, God used Joseph to keep the line of Christ alive.

 

I just felt it important to elaborate on this in light of the course our conversation had taken. :001_smile:

[Sharon in SC]

and ultimately...I have a feeling I'll lose this game :lol:

 

Bill

 

It's all good, Bill. It's all good! :)

[Spy Car]

Bill, I think it important at this point, in light of your statement here, to step back and take a broader picture of Joseph's testimony. The day he was sold into slavery by his brothers is a perfect example of God's care and provision. Joseph later told his brothers, "You intended to harm me but God intended it for good, the saving of many lives." (Gen 45:5)(This speaks to the fact that many times God overrules the evil actions of humans in order to carry out His will.)

 

You see, except that Joseph was in position in Egypt to provide grain to them, Jacob's (his father) family would have perished. As it was, while their migration to Egypt did ultimately lead to a time of slavery, God used Joseph's position in Egypt to, in Joseph's words, "preserve ...a remnant on earth and to save (their lives) by a great deliverance." (Gen 45:7) God worked through Joseph to preserve the covenant people through whom would come the Christ. Even though the Christ would come through Judah's descendant and not Joseph's, God used Joseph to keep the line of Christ alive.

 

I just felt it important to elaborate on this in light of the course our conversation had taken. :001_smile:

 

OK, but in the tradition God also kept this people alive during their wanderings in the desert by providing them with manna. The point, the way I see it, is the tradition teaches one way or another God will provide. And not that we (term used loosely) should stock-pile food because we are fearful.

 

Bill

[Sharon in SC]

OK, but in the tradition God also kept this people alive during their wanderings in the desert by providing them with manna. The point, the way I see it, is the tradition teaches one way or another God will provide. And not that we (term used loosely) should stock-pile food because we are fearful.

 

Bill

 

The operative word here, for me, is "because we are fearful." I verbalized from the get go that I am not stockpiling because I am fearful. I wholeheartedly, 100%, agree with you that to do so out of fear would be very much contrary to the passage in Matthew you shared! There, we agree. :D

[Margaret in GA]

Why wishful thinking? I have no idea why, but so many people *want* a great depression, a serious crisis, an end of world scenario. Frankly, I'm optimistic. I do have some food stockpiled and we have a big old garden, but I'm guessing things are going to get better and better, not worse and worse.

 

Margaret

[Spy Car]

The operative word here, for me, is "because we are fearful." I verbalized from the get go that I am not stockpiling because I am fearful. I wholeheartedly, 100%, agree with you that to do so out of fear would be very much contrary to the passage in Matthew you shared! There, we agree. :D

 

Perfect!

 

You're not going to worry. I'm not going to worry, and perhaps our attitude will become contagious :D

 

Bill

Edited March 14, 2009 by Spy Car

[Sharon in SC]

Why wishful thinking? I have no idea why, but so many people *want* a great depression, a serious crisis, an end of world scenario. Frankly, I'm optimistic. I do have some food stockpiled and we have a big old garden, but I'm guessing things are going to get better and better, not worse and worse.

 

Margaret

 

Hey, Bill! It's already happenin'!!!! (Sorry, Margaret, I couldn't resist. Your post came immediately on the heels of Bill and I having just decided our worry-less attitude would become contagious.) :tongue_smilie:

 

I'm curious though what has left you with the impression that folks "want" a depression, crisis, or the like.

[Sahamamama]

We talked about this at our Women's Ministry Meeting Monday night. Let me start by saying that I do believe in the gift of prophecy. I believe God reveals himself in many ways, and one of those ways is through the gift of prophecy. David Wilkerson has never been known to go around "spouting off" prophecies to scare people. And I know there are some religious figures out there who do. What Mr. Wilkerson is proposing for us to do to be prepared is not outrageous or unheard of. It is actually pretty smart. And it's not hard to see that our country is going to pot. But the best thing each of us can do is pray for discernment and wisdom. I know God did not intend for us to be fearful. :grouphug:

 

:iagree: David Wilkerson sometimes seems all "Doom and Gloom" to me, but consider the role of the prophet -- not necessarily to foretell the future, but to deliver God's warnings and messages of preparation/encouragement to his people. Maybe we should work towards preparing to provide for our families for a time, if "the system" should break down. Do we really think that nothing is going to happen? I do believe that something will happen, it's just a matter of when.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 says, "Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, 'Peace and safety,' destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."

 

We are working on our "list" of preparations, what's the harm of doing that, if we don't do it while living in paralyzing fear? There's a difference between a fear that paralyzes and an alertness that prompts us to act.

 

Bottled water. Canned beans. Diapers (we have twin babies). Canned tuna. Peanut butter. Bleach (for disinfecting). Paper towels. Batteries. I'm not sure what else to do, but I think perhaps it is wise to work towards being ready for any type of crisis. If it never comes, great! But if it does, I'd really like to feed my children.