BMW Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I understand politeness... But, I don't require my family to "ask" me to fix dinner or do the laundry. I do it because I am part of a family and they depend on me for that. She isn't working (is looking for work). She isn't going to school (doesn't have the money and wont take public transportation anyway). She stays up, sleeps in and after I finish wiping down the counters and doing morning dishes I say, "You can sweep the kitchen and the house, I will sort through these school shelves." I say it just matter of factly, not bossy, no emotion, just living life... So, she says, "You can ask me if you want me to do something.":scared: So, I respond that I don't get asked to fix dinner or do laundry... I just do it as part of the family. She says that I could use some manners... I should've just ignored the attitude in the moment. But we went into a banter... me mentioning that she feels entitlement and she saying that I have an ego problem... I mentioned that she could pack her bags and that she could start paying rent when she gets a job if she stays here, but I wouldn't let her dad treat me rudely and I wont have it from her. So, she says that I should be great friends with her dad because we are just alike... You know, now that I think about it, I have to say that it must be odd for her to see me WITH an ego, since I was a doormat for many years. Yeah, we are in counseling. I always get referred to a counselor here. Yeah, we have looked into different counselors. But, honestly, I think I am rather solid now. I am not in panic mode, I am not in survival mode. I am creative, eating and sleeping well, have friends and am doing a great job with just about all the rest of the crew... I think it's a case of a 19yog standing toe to toe with her mom and the house doesn't have room for the both of us... I'd love to be the mom that keeps her girls in the home until marriage, but not at the sacrifice of basic respect and responsiblity. I really think that her counselor has missed the mark when it comes to her stabbing at people when they disagree... she does this with her teen siblings. If an argument starts, watch out! She will say incredibly hurtful things. I've had to talk about her being verbally abusive to some of the children. If I didn't let her dad continue in that way, why would I let her?? But, I hate the thought of giving her an ultimatum. How does one handle a grown up child living at home, anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaT Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I have a grown child (22) living at home, and I would never allow a tone of disrespect from him. How about a sit down meeting with you dd, yourself and your dh? Explain that this is your home and simply state what you will and will not allow if she wants to continue to live there. At that point, it is up to her to comply or find somewhere else to live. I would worry about the example she is setting for your younger dc. Do they talk to you this way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 So, I respond that I don't get asked to fix dinner or do laundry... I just do it as part of the family. She says that I could use some manners... She changed the subject on you; when you pointed out the flaw in her logic, she attacked instead of engaging the question. Is that a habitual response for her? Perhaps you would like to use these phrases: "Be that as it may..." "Nevertheless..." "That may be so, but..." "Regardless..." And yeah, it sounds like it's time for her to be out on her own. I really think there just comes a point when it's time to go and be independent! So much has to be learned through experience, like what it's like to run a home on your own and be responsible for yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMW Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share Posted March 6, 2009 Yes, when she is uncomfortable about how a conversation is going, she changes the topic and makes a personal attack. This is very habitual for her and will present problems for her in the future. It is hard because she learned that growing up and I want so much for her to be different in that way, but I cannot make her change that part of who she is being... she has to recognize that, see that it is wrong to do that to others (attack them when you are uncomfortable) and want to make a change for herself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aubrey Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 It sounds like you're frustrated w/ her for other things, though, that y'all aren't talking about. You want her to go to school or get a job, & since she's not & seems to have no plans to do so, it bothers you more when you have to ask her to do stuff around the house. (It sounds like.) I think if you could tell her clearly what your expectations are w/ regard to school, work, & household responsibilitie, *maybe* things could get smoother. I'm sure sorry she's talking to you that way, though. I've started warning my dc now, "Lead Mama NOT into temptation" (...cuz you wouldn't like to see what I start thiking about doing when I get mad.) ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 She can 'ask' to eat dinner or use her room (or the bathroom) or your towels for a while in my opinion. Maybe you should say no from time to time when she does. I hate that kind of arrogant attitude...especially from an offspring. Living together requires mutual respect and flexibility. She probably needs to go forth into the world and realize how good she had it at home. (Few roommates are going to put up with that attitude long term either.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ria Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 It might be as simple as giving her a list of what is expected of her in return for her room and board. You might have to spell it out and tell her exactly what must be done on each day of the week. You might also consider drawing up some type of contract that states that she agrees to stop being insulting/rude and will do the chores in exchange for room and board....and that if she violates the contract she has 2 - 4 (whatever you decide) weeks to find a new place to live. Then make her sign it, and you and your dh sign it. I know that sounds extreme, but if she was living in an apt. somewhere she'd have responsibilities (ie, if she didn't pay the rent/cable/electric) she'd be kicked out. Being an adult brings with it adult responsibilities. She needs to know that you are allowing her to live at home in exchange for services...it's not her right to be there. Oh, dear. That sounds awfully harsh, but I think you could soften it a bit. Ria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I like Ria's plan very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 LOL, when I first read the thread title I thought you meant that she was complaining about not being asked to do enough things, that you didn't have enough for her to do & I was going to ask you to send her here because I have a HUGE list of things she can be doing.... Now I realize that's not your question at all. And yet - I wonder if it still isn't the case. She's maturing & yet has few responsibilities. It's this teen 'immature' limbo in our culture which I think creates an awful lot of problems. Just a few generations ago (& even presently in other parts of the world) she would, by now, have been responsible for a family etc. So I think she needs way more responsibilities. I would give this young woman living with you a big list. Daily cleaning etc chores, put her in charge of dinner (or all the daily meals) several times a week, responsibility for supervising some of the siblings' lessons. Those would be her responsibilities and she wouldn't been to 'be told' because they'd be on the list & she better be working through that list. I would also make sure she's volunteering somewhere at least 4h/week & maybe more. Looking for work is fine and dandy, but in the meantime, get out there & volunteer. With the unemployment rates skyrocketing, it may be that she will need to volunteer for some time to build up her resume. In the meantime, it will get her out there & doing some constructive work. I second the suggestions to do all this in the context of a family meeting, write it all up and come up with an agreement. I do think it's a good idea for you though to start thinking of her as an adult - and when additional things that need doing come up, I honestly would start asking rather than 'ordering' etc. Kind of imagine that she's a daughter of a friend of yours who is staying with you for a month; you can still ask them to help but you do it in a different way than with younger kids. For instance, my mom & I have worked on a bunch of house projects together but the tone is all different now; it's not her saying 'go downstairs and get those supplies' just because she's my mother; it's 'ok, what I think we need to do is this & maybe you can get those supplies from downstairs while I prep this?'. It makes a world of difference. OTOH, if that doesn't work out at all for whatever reason, then I'd consider treating a room & board situation, and impose whatever rules that you would if you were renting out that room to a foreign student, though you may be inclined to discount the rent. But be clear about responsibilities and roles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PariSarah Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 . . . and say that I think teens-becoming-adults do need to hear in their parents' voices that their parents recognize their growing maturity. This does not mean allowing disrespectful or cruel speech from her, but it may mean broadening your expectations of her a bit, and giving her room to meet them in her own way. It may also mean giving her a few areas where you're not trying to parent her--where you're just letting her fly free. And I think it definitely means speaking differently to her than you spoke to her when she was twelve. What about asking her which of the family chores she'd like to do, rather than telling her which and when and how? Let her know that you need a certain number of chores done, or a certain number of hours worked, or certain kinds of assistance, but give her a chance to let you know what she prefers doing. You don't have to make chore-doing optional to let her have options. She may surprise you--"Mom, I just hate doing the dishes. I really hate it. But I'd love to do the laundry for you, instead." And can you look for areas where there isn't any friction between the two of you--maybe a hobby you share? maybe something she's really good at that you're interested in?--and let her be the expert in some of them? Ask her advice, let her teach you a thing or two. Don't fake it--if you're an expert knitter and she's a beginner, don't ask for her help on your next lace shawl. But if she has a good eye for color, ask her which yarn she thinks would look good with your winter coat, or whatever. And, yes, I've always asked my son, respectfully, to help me with household chores. Asking respectfully doesn't mean that he doesn't have to do what I ask. It just lets him know that respect is not a one-way street. I treat him with respect so that he understands why I require him to treat me with respect. I speak to him now the way I want him to speak to me when I'm ninety and need his help with my finances or my medication or my diapers. Seriously. BUT. This can absolutely go hand in hand with requiring that she treat you with respect, with requiring that she help around the house, even with training her out of that sense of entitlement. You can have high standards and yet convey those high standards to her in a way that saves her a little face. It doesn't cost you anything to speak gently to her, and it shouldn't cost you much to give her some options concerning how she's going to help around the house. But by giving her a little room to practice being an adult, you'll keep a little room for yourself to be in her life when she's a full-fledged adult. I don't have teens myself yet (gulp!), so you may find my advice a little naive. But I do remember, very vividly, how my parents treated me as I was becoming an adult. They gave me permission to screw up, to make choices, to have an opinion that differed from theirs, and to express it respectfully. They had standards, durnit, but they weren't rude about it. They weren't permissive, by any stretch of the imagination, but they listened when I talked, even when I talked out of turn. And that's why I still listen when they talk, even now. It made an impression on me, even at the time, and I have every intention of following their example with my own kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SapphireStitch Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 I also have a 19yog who plans to live at home with us until she marries. Let me say before I say anything else that I have no room to brag about how she has turned out. I didn't know how to raise a little girl to grow up to live with her parents as a young adult...by God's grace he gave her some experiences that have made this easier for us than it will be for some others. He also made her a very different personality than me...she is much more like my husband and therefore I find it a little easier to get along with her than I would if she were more like me. (Her little brother is my mini-me...that's another story.) This is mostly repeating what others have said, but here are a few things that I think have helped us to have this relationship with her: 1. She and I are friends. We haven't ever had the kind of relationship where we are more like sisters than mother and daughter...I'm not that kind of cool mom. :) But we do things together, we have some hobbies we share, we like the same kind of books, etc. And like Sarah recommended, she does have her areas of expertise...she's my knitting instructor, and my tech support, among other things. 2. We are partners. We kind of fell into this relationship as a result of her helping me through my really tough pregnancy and postpartum with her little brother. She KNOWS that she is NEEDED, this house does not run as well without her. This is hard for me sometimes, but I have to treat her as I would another adult woman...sit down and say "I would like you to cook dinner two night this week, which nights would work out best for your schedule." 3. She has something outside the home to do. We did not know how to work a job for her into our family schedule. She doesn't have a desire for college right now, so we are not insisting on it, particularly since she is motivated to study on her own. But we are a one-car family, and we couldn't figure out how she would be able to have a job. That again was all of God...some friends recommended her to family members who needed a part-time nanny. She is able to commute with her dad because their schedules mesh and their destinations are close. In addition to her job, she has friends to get together with and she has taken up Contra dancing as a hobby and fitness activity. These things have helped her to be more content when she's at home, and have given her an identity outside of just being our daughter. Plus her job has given her a nice little income which she is learning to spend wisely and invest. Those are the things that work at our house. BUT it's not all roses and scented candles. :) Just today I had to tell her rather forcibly to quit taking the bait when her little brother says annoying things. Even though they are 12 years apart they still love to get on each other's nerves. We also have an ongoing issue of her making plans with friends without clearing things with us first. Her dad gets a little miffed when he finds out his car has been promised for an activity without him being consulted! She can be very young and thoughtless sometimes. And we can be very middle-aged and cranky sometimes, too. I'd encourage you to sit down with your daughter and ask her if the two of you can work together, if you can be adult women sharing responsibilities together. Again, I want to stress that I don't have this figured out. Today was a pretty good day around our house so I feel positive about both my kids. Ask me tomorrow and I might say "Put her in college while you've got the chance!" :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 I understand politeness... But, I don't require my family to "ask" me to fix dinner or do the laundry. I do it because I am part of a family and they depend on me for that. She isn't working (is looking for work). She isn't going to school (doesn't have the money and wont take public transportation anyway). She stays up, sleeps in and after I finish wiping down the counters and doing morning dishes I say, "You can sweep the kitchen and the house, I will sort through these school shelves." I say it just matter of factly, not bossy, no emotion, just living life... So, she says, "You can ask me if you want me to do something.":scared: There is NO excuse for her nasty attitude, but I do have to admit that I understand her statement. No, I don't expect my children to *ask me to make dinner, but they don't walk up to me and say "Make us some dinner, Mom", either. Nor does my husband say "Do the dishes." If someone in the house needs something from me, they say "Can you" or "Will you" or something along those more respectful lines. I 'ask' my husband to take out the trash or to let the dogs out or to bring home milk. Even with the children, if I'm not 'asking', I'll at least say "Please clean up your rooms" or what have you. In most cases, there's no real question, but I definitely feel more respected when things are phrased politely, and I assume the rest of my family does, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phathui5 Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 She says that I could use some manners... It wouldn't hurt to say please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirrellyMama Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 It wouldn't hurt to say please. I have to disagree with this a bit. In the situation she posted about she could have said please but I don't see it as something she should have done. As she said she isn't asked to make dinner, do laundry, etc... And I would guess nobody in her house says "Please make dinner" to her either. I think one way to help this problem isn't to tell her to do chores each day but to have a list of what is expected. She has her list for each day and knows what to do. If she doesn't get them done then there should be consequences. I don't say please or ask my children to do something when I'm giving them an order. If it is something out of the ordinary or a mess they didn't make, etc... then I'll say please and ask. If they make a mess in their room i don't say "Please clean your room". I say "Clean your room" because they made the mess and it's time to clean. If I need them to bring me a book then I'll say "Can you please bring me the book". It is then a request. Kelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delighted3 Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 then the dd could come to her Mom at a more neutral time and say, "Mom, It really bothers me when you..." By responding to her Mom in that manner at the time she did, I think it is a heart issue and very disrespectful. I don't have much time right now, but that is just one thought that came to mind. Joy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keptwoman Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 It wouldn't hurt to say please. That's what I thought too. I do understand that your request was not out of the ordinary but for instance if I didn't feel like cooking dinner on the weekend and wanted my husband to do it I would ask with a please. When I ask my children to do their chores I add a please. If my children want something from me they need to use please. It's just being polite. I totally agree that she needs to pull her weight and the lack of a polite "please" may not be the issue at all, but it can't hurt to try it. I don't say please or ask my children to do something when I'm giving them an order. If it is something out of the ordinary or a mess they didn't make, etc... then I'll say please and ask. If they make a mess in their room i don't say "Please clean your room". I say "Clean your room" because they made the mess and it's time to clean. If I need them to bring me a book then I'll say "Can you please bring me the book". It is then a request. For me either way I use please. It doesn't change mean I don't expect the children to do it, I just consider it polite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 A couple of the ways you word things make me wonder if yours is a blended family. If this is part of the issue, then I'd say it is even more important that clear expectations are laid out as a family. A couple years back one of my kids observed that the child who did his work quickly and well was rewarded with having more work given to them, sometimes including the work that had been earlier assigned to a sibling. He was right. So I made a rotating chart of responsibilities that only switched every week. Then I laid out step by step directions for how to do each job. Each kid knows what they are supposed to do and I know exactly who didn't do their job. It sounds like this girl is in a limbo status. She isn't working outside the home or attending school. Neither is she acting as a mother's helper or assistant home manager. She has authority over nothing. Responsibility for little (in the sense of autonomous responsibility like making breakfast daily or being in charge of laundry). What do you want from her? An independent working person out on her own? A student that is preparing for the future while being supported at home? A future wife and mother capable of assuming responsibility for a household? What does she want? I think that these questions need to be answered before you can determine how she fits into the family as an emerging adult. If her answer is that she doesn't know yet, then you (plural - her + parents) need to set up the situations that will help her determine what she wants. Volunteer work is great, as long as she treats it seriously as she would a job with the purpose of gaining experience and building a professional network. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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