KarenNC Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 That was the definition I got from the second link. I was hopeing for a better explanation. The whole thing is really confusing, the second link said that Christian Pagan or Christian Heathen were oxymorons, because the definition of Pagan and Heathen depended upon that person not being a Christian. His explanation was that Heathens and Pagans might be using the term "Christian" to pass in a world that would not accept them as Pagans or Heathens. If you have a link to Christian Heathens or Pagans, I would love to see it. I've believed (my entire life) that there were mysteries, energies, etc., but I've always believed they were placed there by God for us to use. I genuinely want to know, because it interests me on a personal level. We may be talking of two different things. Yes, I am sure there are indeed folks who are "passing" in order to have an easier time socially, in their jobs, etc. When our daughter was born, we briefly considered it simply to make her life easier in our area where the local paper prints the Christian Bible verse and prayer of the day on the second page, many government meetings are still opened with explicit prayers to "our Savior Jesus Christ" and most of her extended family share the opinions of Pagans expressed by early posters. That was even before we got into homeschooling, which in this area is incredibly dominated by groups requiring an explicitly Protestant statement of faith (often a Biblically literal one) in order to participate in any activities. In the end, we realized pretty quickly that raising her while living a lie was not in her best interest. So, yes, there are those folks, but that's not the group I think of when I hear the term "Christian Pagan". Maybe that is differentiated from the term I have seen more often---"Christo-Pagan" or "Christopagan". Not someone who practices both religions independently but one for whom they are indeed integrated. In terms of the article, consider that that is the opinion of the author, who is writing about a group of which he is evidently not a part. You will likely get a different slant from someone who self-identifies as a Christian Pagan or Christopagan. Again, this is not a group with which I have had much contact and what I have has not been recently, so perhaps others may have more information and suggestions of websites. Google is being odd for me this morning, so I am not able to search effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 In some demoninations of Christianity there are "Christians" that continue to have multiple wives, worship the dead, practice voodoo, worship their pagan gods, etc. Generally they are continuing to follow the social norms of the area in which they live. This is not acceptable in my denomination, but it is perhaps not as unusual as you would think among "Christians". Some even use the same buildings and actions that were originally for goddesses and simply make them "acceptable" by saying that it is now dedicated to Mary or a Saint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 (edited) I believe she is referring to the Christian Gnostics. Just as Kabbalah is Jewish Gnosticism, there are sects of Christian Gnostics who believe the divine is within humans (Holy Spirit) and only through knowledge can this be embraced and developed. They would be, broadly, looked at as heretics by mainstream Protestants, but I'm not sure they actually fall under "Pagan". Gnostics do include some Pagan sects, and also some branches that do not fall under anything else. Plato was a Gnostic. Here is a better explanation than I can provide. I have never heard Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. included under the umbrella of Paganism. I think this is a definition based upon a Christian perspective, essentially lumping all religions that do not acknowledge the same deity into the category of Pagan as "other", akin to heresy. Also, on the part of non-believers maybe getting their errant information regarding God/Jesus from movies... really? I mean, seriously? Because I'm pretty sure that the question was asked whether Pagans (or Wiccans or Witches) really believed in Harry Potter in this discussion. Given the play Christian theology is given in our culture, and the fact that there is great debate among Christians as to who is a "real" Christian, it seems to me that we have as much information as you, and the ignorant media portrayal of religion definitely has a field day with any belief system outside the "mainstream", which is, of course, why people have such bizarre information about Pagans. ;) (And, no, as mentioned, the devil is a product of Christianity. We don't worship one.) Based on what I've read, Gnosticism is not one simple religion. The beliefs were mulitfaceted and changed often--there were many sects. There are gnostics who accept Jesus, because there was a lot of combining of religion. In fact, I Timothy addresses a number of gnostic teachings Paul was concerned about due to the intermingling of teachings. ("old wives tales" doesn't mean what we think it does--older women passed on the stories and teachings of gnosticism to their grandchildren, etc). He was trying to keep them out of Christianity, although I don't think he succeeded. In fact, there are arguments that the whole call to some Christians being celebate comes from some or many of the gnostic sects. (If you're Catholic, I'm not attacking you--I've just done some reading!) Paganism has also been combined on both sides. There are entire books arguing that some Christian doctrine stems from pagan beliefs, including European pagan beliefs stemming from around the thirteenth century, and I mean more than when we celebrate Christmas or how eggs and rabbits became associated with the resurrection. I don't want to get into which ones here, but feel free to PM me if you'd like to know more (I'm not expert, but am familiar with some of them.) There is also evidence that points to the idea that Christians converted pagan temples into cathedrals and churches in Europe. As for Hinduism, et al, I've read arguments that all of those religions started from one religion that started in Babylon, but it's difficult to prove all this as it happened so many thousands of years ago. Some say that the Babylonian religion was the source of Hinduism, the Egyptian gods, the Greek, and therefore Roman (they borrowed from the Greeks) gods, as well as the Norse religion. In fact, if you read Snorri Sturluson's history, there are possible parallels between his history of how the gods moved north and these other stories. There are some Christians who are convinced that this is how the trinity became inculcated into common Christian theology--a combining of different religions to incoporate more converts. Lest you think I am nothing but a skeptic, I am a Christian, just not one who accepts as Christian doctrines I can't find in the Bible. Personal choice to choose what I believe, just as everyone else here has that choice. Edited January 31, 2009 by Karin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Paganism has also been combined on both sides. There are entire books arguing that some Christian doctrine stems from pagan beliefs, including European pagan beliefs stemming from around the thirteenth century, and I mean more than when we celebrate Christmas or how eggs and rabbits became associated with the resurrection. There's not a small amount of ideas/practices from Christianity that have been incorporated into many modern Neopagan religions as well. The idea of the priesthood of the individual believer rather than going through an intermediary for rituals, for one, is a very Protestant Christian one, not something that the ancients practiced on the same scale (if at all). The idea that one individually chooses one's religion rather than following the religion of one's people is something that Christianity brought to the mix, particularly the idea of choosing a new religion that requires you to reject your previous one rather than include it alongside your tribe or society's practices. The idea that what one believes about the Gods (God) is more important than what one does (orthodoxy--right thinking---rather than orthopraxis---right action) is a pretty Christian viewpoint. Considering that modern Neopagan religions grew out of Western civilization in the 19th and 20th centuries primarily, that's not surprising. Christianity was shaped by the cultures in which it arose as well. If you read Ronald Hutton's books on religion in the British isles, you can find discussions of practices that Neopagans today consider to be authentic survivals of pre-Christian rituals, but actually originated in medieval or later times. Every religion borrows back and forth and is affected by the society and times in which it is practiced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemytea Posted January 31, 2009 Author Share Posted January 31, 2009 Is it your belief, if you're a pagan or witch, that you go to heaven or upon your death, do you go be with other witches or pagans? Do pagans that believe they are Christians believe they go to heaven? Thank you for your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemytea Posted January 31, 2009 Author Share Posted January 31, 2009 I'm confused with the term "Christian Wiccan". Isn't that sort of like saying a "Christian Jew"? I know a few who call themselves Christian Wiccans. I can't speak to what that exactly entails, but I'm told it is apparently a growing sect of Wicca. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemytea Posted January 31, 2009 Author Share Posted January 31, 2009 I'm simple minded when it comes to Christianity. Many theologians and scholars will try and make Christianity very complicated, but it really isn't. I'm not going to read the Bible and tear it to shreds trying to make it say something that I want to believe. I do think there are many, many people who will do that so they can feel they will be in heaven one day with our heavenly Father and still continue as they please. That's not how it is. God said that no one goes to the Father except through Jesus Christ, our Lord. I believe that with all my heart. I don't believe I can go into the forest (and I'm not picking or poking fun) and absorb the nature around me and chant little songs about the god of trees or dirt or rivers and worship the things of the earth, and God will accept me into His kingdom, because I would be worshipping the wrong thing. I worship only our Lord and Savior. Not the things He made. I thank him for the things he made; for the beauty of the earth. I thank him for sending His Son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross for my sins so that I will have eternal life with him. John 3:16 said it simply enough that a child can understand. "For God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believe in Him will have ever lasting life." You can't worship the earth and all that is in it, and worship God. It doesn't work that way. "You shall have no other gods before me." http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Exodus+20&version=47 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam "SFSOM" in TN Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 I'm simple minded when it comes to Christianity. Many theologians and scholars will try and make Christianity very complicated, but it really isn't. I'm not going to read the Bible and tear it to shreds trying to make it say something that I want to believe. I do think there are many, many people who will do that so they can feel they will be in heaven one day with our heavenly Father and still continue as they please. That's not how it is. God said that no one goes to the Father except through Jesus Christ, our Lord. I believe that with all my heart. I don't believe I can go into the forest (and I'm not picking or poking fun) and absorb the nature around me and chant little songs about the god of trees or dirt or rivers and worship the things of the earth, and God will accept me into His kingdom, because I would be worshipping the wrong thing. I worship only our Lord and Savior. Not the things He made. I thank him for the things he made; for the beauty of the earth. I thank him for sending His Son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross for my sins so that I will have eternal life with him. John 3:16 said it simply enough that a child can understand. "For God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believe in Him will have ever lasting life." You can't worship the earth and all that is in it, and worship God. It doesn't work that way. "You shall have no other gods before me." http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Exodus+20&version=47 Thanks for sharing. And for the link. I was wondering if I was mistaken about the original intent of your question. I was not mistaken, after all. You have read the board rules, yes? No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Thanks for sharing. And for the link. I was wondering if I was mistaken about the original intent of your question. I was not mistaken, after all. Oh well, I found out that Witches and Pagans are not so scary and I am willing to bet that others did to. It seems if the post that you are referring to has the intent that you are implying, then it is directed at Christian Pagans, and as far as we know, they are not represented on this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Is it your belief, if you're a pagan or witch, that you go to heaven or upon your death, do you go be with other witches or pagans? Do pagans that believe they are Christians believe they go to heaven? Thank you for your input. There again it is very individual. Some believe in Heaven or some type of Heaven, some believe in a waiting place for reincarnation. I'm sure some believe that when you are dead, that is the end. I'm confused with the term "Christian Wiccan". Isn't that sort of like saying a "Christian Jew"? There are Christian Jews, usually referred to as Messianic Jews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam "SFSOM" in TN Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Oh well, I found out that Witches and Pagans are not so scary and I am willing to bet that others did to. You're right, of course. The glass is almost always half full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 There are Christian Jews, usually referred to as Messianic Jews. Yes, I've had some great discussions with one, although I think many Jews who are not Christian consider themselves Messianic. There also is, or at least was, a group called "Jews for Jesus" which is a totally different group. The gentleman I had some discussions with interprets certain sections of the epistles to mean that they can accept Jesus as their saviour, but that they must still uphold the law of Moses, etc. This is a very simplistic explanation on my part, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Yes, I've had some great discussions with one, although I think many Jews who are not Christian consider themselves Messianic. There also is, or at least was, a group called "Jews for Jesus" which is a totally different group. The gentleman I had some discussions with interprets certain sections of the epistles to mean that they can accept Jesus as their saviour, but that they must still uphold the law of Moses, etc. This is a very simplistic explanation on my part, of course. It has been a while. I'm certain I probably have the wrong name. I was thinking what ever the Jews for Jesus call them self. Or are they simply Christian Jews? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaik76 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 The Bible makes it very clear that other gods do indeed exist and have power. It also makes it very clear that we are not to worship them. I think she is gathering information about pagans etc. here, so that she can use it when witnessing to such ones in the future. I run into people all the time that have been introduced to God, but do not know who He is. For example: His personality is completely contrary to the idea of a burning hell, and He is not three in one. He does not take children away from parents because he wants them in heaven. These are ideas that have been introduced into Christianity by men. Jesus and Paul foretold that there would be a time when the truth about God would be obscurred by false teachers entering the congregation. So they have not really been introduced to God, but rather a mistaken idea of Him. Totally OT...but some of us believe the other way around, that those who don't believe in 3 in 1 have been falsely led, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 It has been a while. I'm certain I probably have the wrong name. I was thinking what ever the Jews for Jesus call them self. Or are they simply Christian Jews? There are people who call themselves Messianic Jews, but they're not the same group. I remember seeing a flyer from the group called "Jews for Jesus." I asked the fellow I used to see if they were the same, and he said they weren't. I just did a quick google. Here's the site for Jews for Jesus http://jewsforjesus.org/ . Here's the wikipedia link, but I never consider them a full authority on anything http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_for_Jesus . This is the wikipedia link to Messianic Judaism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Jews . I can't find a site that's actually run by Messianic Jews, just lots of sites of people criticizing them. Then there are some Jews who convert to Christianity that no longer consider themselves Jewish other than by heritage. The one thing the Messianic Jew I talked with was adamant about was that he was still a Jew even though he accepted Jesus as the Messiah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaik76 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 I know a few who call themselves Christian Wiccans. I can't speak to what that exactly entails, but I'm told it is apparently a growing sect of Wicca. My mom is not exactly this, but considers herself a "Magic Christian". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 (edited) I'm confused with the term "Christian Wiccan". Isn't that sort of like saying a "Christian Jew"? To be very honest, it confuses me as well. I don't particularly agree with what I've read or been told about it. Here is a wikipedia link. It will probably just prove more confusing, but as I said... I can't really speak to what Christian Wiccans believe or don't believe because I'm neither Christian nor Wiccan, and certainly not Christian Wiccan. Better to read what the people who practise it have to say. Edited January 31, 2009 by Audrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 (edited) Oh, you did bring it up on the forum, instead of PM. I encourage you to look up the scriptures in the quote, this is where the idea of false teachings in the church comes from. Everyone was originally mixed in with this group, and had to have false teachings gradually exposed to them. The Scriptures foretold a great apostasy, or falling away from the true faith. The symbolic weeds of Jesus’ parable, that is, counterfeit Christians, would try to choke out the symbolic wheat, or true Christians, those anointed with God’s spirit. The parable reveals that the spread of false Christianity, promoted by God’s archenemy, the Devil, was about to begin, "while men were sleeping." This took place after the death of Christ’s faithful apostles, during a period of consequent spiritual drowsiness. (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43; 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) As foretold by the apostles, many counterfeit Christians wormed their way into the fold. (Acts 20:29, 30; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 2:16-18; 2 Peter 2:1-3) John was the last of the apostles to die. In about the year 98 C.E., he wrote that "the last hour," the final part of the apostolic period, had already commenced.—1 John 2:18, 19 Mark 13:32, RS: "Of that day or that hour no ones knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." John 14:28, RS: "[Jesus said:] If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I." Texts say that people were "filled" with holy spirit, that some were ‘baptized’ with it or "anointed" with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38) These latter references to holy spirit definitely do not fit a person. I am sure that I am not mistaken. It is sad to me that the true personality of God is being hidden from people. The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: "Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since."—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126. The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: "The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299. In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: "Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching."—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L. According to the Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel, "The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions."—(Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467. John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: "The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians."—(New York, 1965), p. 899. Totally OT...but some of us believe the other way around, that those who don't believe in 3 in 1 have been falsely led, etc... This is not directed at you, chaik, but some have said that they believe it does not matter, so I would like to point out that it is important that what we believe is the truth. "those worshiping him must worship with ...truth." John 7:24 Matt. 721 "Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness." "However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of you not to be quickly shaken from your reason "because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first... accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."—2 Thess. 2:1-12. Edited January 31, 2009 by Lovedtodeath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Atl Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 To be very honest, it confuses me as well. I don't particularly agree with what I've read or been told about it. Here is a wikipedia link. It will probably just prove more confusing, but as I said... I can't really speak to what Christian Wiccans believe or don't believe because I'm neither Christian nor Wiccan, and certainly not Christian Wiccan. Better to read what the people who practise it have to say. Maybe they are like New Age Christians? I worked with a gal who said she was Christian (went to church... I think Unity), and she was very into healing crystals, etc. There really is a rainbow of beliefs and variations on those beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 (edited) Like I said earlier about Eastern Medicine and Natural Doctors, I am sure that there are some Christians who do the exact same thing as Witches. I wouldn't think that they would be aware of it, but I guess it is possible. This is very interesting: (from wikipedia) Many Christian Wiccans consider prayer and witchcraft to be two similar or identical practices because prayer may be a form of sympathetic magic, where a request is made after a physical model is designed in the physical form in order to display to the divine what is wanted by the asker. Others believe that priests are actually performing witchcraft when they are in service, but that their actions are called by another term. Edited January 31, 2009 by Lovedtodeath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaik76 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Oh, you did bring it up on the forum, instead of PM. I encourage you to look up the scriptures in the quote, this is where the idea of false teachings in the church comes from. Everyone was originally mixed in with this group, and had to have false teachings gradually exposed to them. Mark 13:32, RS: "Of that day or that hour no ones knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." John 14:28, RS: "[Jesus said:] If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I." Texts say that people were "filled" with holy spirit, that some were ‘baptized’ with it or "anointed" with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38) These latter references to holy spirit definitely do not fit a person. I am sure that I am not mistaken. It is sad to me that the true personality of God is being hidden from people. The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: "Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since."—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126. The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: "The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299. In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: "Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching."—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L. According to the Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel, "The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions."—(Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467. John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: "The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians."—(New York, 1965), p. 899. This is not directed at you, chaik, but some have said that they believe it does not matter, so I would like to point out that it is important that what we believe is the truth. "those worshiping him must worship with ...truth." John 7:24 Matt. 721 "Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness." "However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of you not to be quickly shaken from your reason "because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first... accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."—2 Thess. 2:1-12. Oh, I absolutely believe that we need to believe the truth! Of course, I'm Orthodox, a religion that has been around since the NT, so I believe I have the truth. Others disagree of course.:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Oh, I absolutely believe that we need to believe the truth! Of course, I'm Orthodox, a religion that has been around since the NT, so I believe I have the truth. Others disagree of course.:D Hmmmm.... "The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 I found this in my local library and found it to be a fantastic resource. It doesn't bash Christians and does explain, very clearly, about Satanists and how they definitely aren't pagan. http://www.amazon.com/Paganism-Introduction-Earth-Centered-Religions/dp/0738702226/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233444485&sr=8-1 :) Rosie- Western Taoist, non deitied, season based pagan, lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Rosie- Western Taoist, non deitied, season based pagan, lol! Too funny, Rosie! I guess mine would be: pagan, non-deited, non-wiccan herb-wise kitchen witch. Hmmm.... I like it! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaik76 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Hmmmm.... "The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century." No need to put it in a small font! I think this would be a wonderfully interesting discussion to have with you, but probably not in this thread, as it's not pertinent. If you ever do want to I would be more than happy to, on WTM, or through PM's or whatever. :grouphug: Hope you're doing well lately! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Is it your belief, if you're a pagan or witch, that you go to heaven or upon your death, do you go be with other witches or pagans? Do pagans that believe they are Christians believe they go to heaven? Thank you for your input. If that pagan believes in heaven, there's no reason why they wouldn't go there. That being said, I don't know any pagans who believe in a Christian type version of heaven. Reincarnation seems to be a more popular idea. Mind you, I don't know many pagans, and the ones I do know either don't discuss it, or haven't thought their beliefs through well as yet. I don't believe in heaven, but if I did, I would think I was entitled to go there! I am, after all, living my life the way I think I ought to be as far as is humanly possible, anyway. Too funny, Rosie! I guess mine would be: pagan, non-deited, non-wiccan herb-wise kitchen witch. Hmmm.... I like it! :lol: Ha! I'm hoping to add the herb-wise bit myself one of these years. We had a carpet picnic for breakfast this morning, tomatoes, bread, fruit and herb infused oil. It seemed very spiritual as I was half way through reading this thread when we stopped for brekkie. I felt it would have been more spiritual still if we'd grown our own herbs and tomatoes. I think it will be good for my spiritual development to move out of drought country to somewhere I can garden! :) Rosie- who thinks the whole world revolves around food. Or perhaps ought to, at least :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Too funny, Rosie! I guess mine would be: pagan, non-deited, non-wiccan herb-wise kitchen witch. Hmmm.... I like it! :lol: same here! just stick in green witch for kitchen witch :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I found this in my local library and found it to be a fantastic resource. It doesn't bash Christians and does explain, very clearly, about Satanists and how they definitely aren't pagan.http://www.amazon.com/Paganism-Introduction-Earth-Centered-Religions/dp/0738702226/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233444485&sr=8-1 This is a good overview. I used it in an Intro to Paganism class I led at church a few years ago. Another one I have heard well recommended is the Idiot's Guide to Paganism, but haven't seen it myself. Margot Adler's "Drawing Down the Moon" is good in the updated version, but pretty intimidating in length.:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I'm confused with the term "Christian Wiccan". Isn't that sort of like saying a "Christian Jew"? Yes, actually, it is quite similar. Mainstream Jews that I have read about and talked to basically consider these folks to be Christian. Some of these folks are ethnically Jewish, some not. It is a group that is blending Jewish and Christian theology rather than Jews trying to "pass" as Christians (though they have very definitely been accused of being Christians trying to "pass" as Jews in order to proselytize). Here are a few links to pages on Messianic Judaism. http://www.messianic.com/articles/basics.htm'>http://www.messianic.com/articles/basics.htm'>http://www.messianic.com/articles/basics.htm'>http://www.messianic.com/articles/basics.htm http://www.messianic.com/ Jews for Jesus is pretty unabashedly Christian, as I remember. There's a group called Jews for Judaism http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/that has been set up to counter the efforts of Christians to proselytize in the Jewish community (my husband jokes that we need a Gentiles for Moses group:)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Yes, I've had some great discussions with one, although I think many Jews who are not Christian consider themselves Messianic. There also is, or at least was, a group called "Jews for Jesus" which is a totally different group. The gentleman I had some discussions with interprets certain sections of the epistles to mean that they can accept Jesus as their saviour, but that they must still uphold the law of Moses, etc. This is a very simplistic explanation on my part, of course. Never encountered anyone (in person or in reading) who labeled themselves as a Messianic Jew who did not see Jesus as that Messiah, so I'm not sure which group you mean here. What you are describing in the second paragraph is Messianic Judaism, ie Jews who believe Jesus is the prophesied Messiah. Now there have been a number of different men throughout history who have claimed to be messiahs, but that is a different matter (see here for a beginning list, but as it is a wiki article, I would suggest further research if you have an interest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants). There may be a misunderstanding here of what the term messiah means in traditional Judaism vs. what Christianity says it means. Basically, Jesus simply did not do any of the things that the Jewish messiah was prophesied to do. Here's a Jewish explanation of why (and may shed some light on the reasons that Jews don't see Messianic Jews as Jewish) http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm http://www.aish.com/spirituality/philosophy/why_dont_jews_believe_in_jesus$.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Basically, Jesus simply did not do any of the things that the Jewish messiah was prophesied to do. It is my understandung that even his apostles had ideas of him immediately overthrowing governments and ruling as king on earth. They gradually came to understand otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 (edited) From lovemytea: I don't believe I can go into the forest (and I'm not picking or poking fun) and absorb the nature around me and chant little songs about the god of trees or dirt or rivers and worship the things of the earth, and God will accept me into His kingdom, because I would be worshipping the wrong thing. I worship only our Lord and Savior. Not the things He made. I thank him for the things he made;..... One key point in trying to actually learn more about what someone of another faith believes is the understanding that they do not necessarily consider your sacred Scriptures to be at all sacred or, possibly, as anything more than academically interesting. They do not consider themselves any more bound by the Bible than you feel bound as a Christian to follow the teachings of the Hindus or ancient Greeks (as an example). Trying to use the Bible as your basis for understanding what someone of another faith believes or expecting them to adhere to something found in your sacred texts but not theirs is not really terribly useful in the long run. Edited February 1, 2009 by KarenNC to give correct attribution for quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 It is my understandung that even his apostles had ideas of him immediately overthrowing governments and ruling as king on earth. They gradually came to understand otherwise. Yes, and I believe that would be why His followers are called Christians and not Jews. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 (edited) One key point in trying to actually learn more about what someone of another faith believes is the understanding that they do not necessarily consider your sacred Scriptures to be at all sacred or, possibly, as anything more than academically interesting. They do not consider themselves any more bound by the Bible than you feel bound as a Christian to follow the teachings of the Hindus or ancient Greeks (as an example). Trying to use the Bible as your basis for understanding what someone of another faith believes or expecting them to adhere to something found in your sacred texts but not theirs is not really terribly useful in the long run. Well of course! I was speaking to a Christian when I typed that. (the first quote, I did not type the second one, which does seem to be overally harsh... but it does seem to be addressing Christians... The Pagan or Wiccan Christians, but Christians, none-the-less, so your point does not actually apply to either post that you quoted. And it is unlikely that there are Pagan or Wiccan Christians on this board. They have not responded to this thread.) In addition ,some have decided to leave Christianity (and some are now agnostic) because they have not found any organized religion that does not have these false teachings, or they have not found a Bible translation that is accurate. So information such as this could also benefit those such ones. Edited February 1, 2009 by Lovedtodeath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 (edited) Yes, I've had some great discussions with one, although I think many Jews who are not Christian consider themselves Messianic. Not directed at you Karin, because I'm sure you understand this. Many (most) Jews who are religious (and practice Judaism) are "messianiac." There is some debate on the importance of this figure, as the "anointed one" or "Moshiach" is not mentioned in the "written" Torah. Many believe the concept of an anointed one was always part of the oral tradition, and belief in a "Moshiach" is a rather fundamental and ordinary belief in Orthodox Judaism. In any case Jews don't believe that the promised "messianic king" will be a "savior" or a divine personage, rather a leader who would rule as a wise leader in the end times. A great judge and leader to be sure, but not a god, a mortal human being. Jews (who practice Judaism) don't believe that Jesus was the "Moshiach", as he did not fulfill the requirements for "Moshiach" as spelled out in the scripture. Jews deeply resent Christians (even those of a Jewish ethic background) calling themselves "Messianic Jews". And frankly I understand their anger. Imagine if (former) Christians converted to Islam but hung on to baptism, communion, and other sacraments and traditions of the faith and started calling themselves "Completed Christians"? That's the way it is with Jewish converts to Christianity calling themselves "Messianic Jews" to religious Jews. And for Jewish Jews this causes deep offense. One can believe the Jews are incorrect, That Jesus was the moshiach/messiah, but that makes you a Christian and not a Jew. My 2 cents. Bill Edited February 1, 2009 by Spy Car Needed a comma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidsHappen Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Never encountered anyone (in person or in reading) who labeled themselves as a Messianic Jew who did not see Jesus as that Messiah, so I'm not sure which group you mean here. What you are describing in the second paragraph is Messianic Judaism, ie Jews who believe Jesus is the prophesied Messiah. Now there have been a number of different men throughout history who have claimed to be messiahs, but that is a different matter (see here for a beginning list, but as it is a wiki article, I would suggest further research if you have an interest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants). There may be a misunderstanding here of what the term messiah means in traditional Judaism vs. what Christianity says it means. Basically, Jesus simply did not do any of the things that the Jewish messiah was prophesied to do. Here's a Jewish explanation of why (and may shed some light on the reasons that Jews don't see Messianic Jews as Jewish) http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm http://www.aish.com/spirituality/philosophy/why_dont_jews_believe_in_jesus$.asp Thanks for these links. I followed them to a site Jews for Judaism and the information I am finding there is absolutely fasinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 (edited) deleted--corrected original error in other post Edited February 1, 2009 by KarenNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I'm simple minded when it comes to Christianity. It doesn't work that way. "You shall have no other gods before me." Karen, lovemytea (the OP) wrote this, (post #109) not me... I think you are skimming a bit too quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Karen, lovemytea (the OP) wrote this, (post #109) not me... I think you are skimming a bit too quickly. My apologies, you are right, I was confusing the two posts. My response was primarily to the second quote and therefore to lovemytea. Again, my apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 That is what edit buttons are for. :) I am going to try it out now and we can forget this ever happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Never encountered anyone (in person or in reading) who labeled themselves as a Messianic Jew who did not see Jesus as that Messiah, Right. But I know Jewish people who believe that all Jews are inherently messianic because they believe in the coming Messiah, not because they accept Jesus as the Messiah--those are the "Messianic Jews." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Not directed at you Karin, because I'm sure you understand this. Many (most) Jews who are religious (and practice Judaism) are "messianiac." There is some debate on the importance of this figure as the "anointed one" or "Moshiach" is not mentioned in the "written" Torah. Many believe the concept of an anointed one was always part of the oral tradition, and belief in a "Moshiach" is a rather fundamental and ordinary belief in Orthodox Judaism. In any case Jews don't believe that the promised "messianic king" will be a "savior" or a divine personage, rather a leader who would rule as a wise leader in the end times. A great judge and leader to be sure, but not a god, a mortal human being. Jews (who practice Judaism) don't believe that Jesus was the "Moshiach", as he did not fulfill the requirements for "Moshiach" as spelled out in the scripture. Jews deeply resent Christians (even those of a Jewish ethic background) calling themselves "Messianic Jews". And frankly I understand their anger. Imagine if (former) Christians converted to Islam but hung on to baptism, communion, and other sacraments and traditions of the faith and started calling themselves "Completed Christians"? That's the way it is with Jewish converts to Christianity calling themselves "Messianic Jews" to religious Jews. And for Jewish Jews this causes deep offense. One can believe the Jews are incorrect, That Jesus was the moshiach/messiah, but that makes you a Christian and not a Jew. My 2 cents. Bill Thanks--well put. I do understand it, but you put it much better than I just did before I came to your post. I tend to agree with you on that last part, but the Messianic Jews don't see it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Thanks for sharing. And for the link. I was wondering if I was mistaken about the original intent of your question. I was not mistaken, after all. You have read the board rules, yes? No? :iagree: Soap box, ejected. :glare: Anyway, so... is the holy trinity 3 in 1? Read everything to catch up, but I'm not clear where this stands... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Right. But I know Jewish people who believe that all Jews are inherently messianic because they believe in the coming Messiah, not because they accept Jesus as the Messiah--those are the "Messianic Jews." All I can offer is that every link I have found, Jewish article I have read, Jewish person I have met when referring to Messianic Jews (in those specific terms including capitals) have meant Jews who believe Jesus/Yeshua specifically is the Messiah and has already come, not just that a messiah/moshiach will eventually come. Certainly if you follow the links of people who self-describe as "Messianic Jews" I listed you find specific reference to Yeshua. There's a difference, I believe, in terminology of Jews who have a messianic theology (that are expecting that a moshiach will come) and those that believe a specific Messiah has already come and worship that specific individual---the latter are the only ones I have seen described as "Messianic Jews" in those specific terms. Then you have the Reform Jews, many of whom talk of a messianic age rather than a specific individual moshiach. I am willing to admit that it is entirely possible, however, that you have a wider experience or there are regional differences in terminology. We have been involved in our local Jewish community for a number of years, including pretty in-depth study, but are not Jewish ourselves and most of our experience has been in a Reform setting, so I am far from an expert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 :iagree: Soap box, ejected. :glare: Anyway, so... is the holy trinity 3 in 1? Read everything to catch up, but I'm not clear where this stands... This depends whether you want the version of the trinity doctrine as taught in churches since the year 4 AD, or if you want to know what the scriptures say as to the relationship of Jesus, YHWH, and the holy spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 This depends whether you want the version of the trinity doctrine as taught in churches since the year 4 AD, or if you want to know what the scriptures say as to the relationship of Jesus, YHWH, and the holy spirit. I trust you. You seem well informed and you always back up what you post with outside sources. So, the question is to you specifically :) What do YOU believe, according to what you have learned? I was always taught it was the equivalent of apple pie. God, Jesus and The Holy Ghost are three separate things that make one thing, the trinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 All I can offer is that every link I have found, Jewish article I have read, Jewish person I have met when referring to Messianic Jews (in those specific terms including capitals) have meant Jews who believe Jesus/Yeshua specifically is the Messiah and has already come, not just that a messiah/moshiach will eventually come. It is impossible for me to overstate what grave offense is taken in the Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox, and Hasidic Jewish communities to the term "Messianic Jews" being used in this fashion. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemytea Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 I'm sorry to admit that I haven't had time this weekend to read all the posts, but I just want to say "thank you" for all the information. I certainly hope I haven't stepped on anyone's toes. I just want to understand as much as I can about different religions. Again, thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 It is impossible for me to overstate what grave offense is taken in the Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox, and Hasidic Jewish communities to the term "Messianic Jews" being used in this fashion. Bill Understood. As I have said, everything I have seen from a Jewish perspective is that these folks are religiously Christians rather than Jewish whether or not they are ethnically Jewish, and frequently the expectation is that they are Christians who are furthermore attempting to appear Jewish to covertly proselytize in the Jewish community. That's why I have been surprised that someone who does not follow Yeshua would be self-identifying as a "Messianic Jew" rather than just a "Jew" since the teaching of a moshiach is implicit within traditional Judaism. Additional links Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations http://umjc.net/content/view/354/107/ some specific congregations http://tzion.org/ http://www.shomairyisrael.com/congrevision.htm an article that discusses this even in the 19th century http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1339 Have you run across folks or congregations sing the term "Messianic Jew" as a self-applied label in a different context than as a Jew who believes that Yeshua is the Messiah? I have simply never seen it in any other context, but I have already admitted that I am far from an expert. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 (edited) I trust you. You seem well informed and you always back up what you post with outside sources. So, the question is to you specifically :) What do YOU believe, according to what you have learned? I was always taught it was the equivalent of apple pie. God, Jesus and The Holy Ghost are three separate things that make one thing, the trinity. Thank you. My answer is in post #120, after the quote, with scriptures and quotes from encyclopedias. If you want more information, I can send more via PM. In a nutshell, I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. The scriptures call him only-begotten, and the firstborn of all creation that is... the only spirit creature that God himself created. All other things were created through Jesus. I believe the holy spirit to be, not a person, but God's active force. Then the Almighty God is YHWH, or in English, Jehovah. He is the Alpha and the Omega, existing for times indefinite. I'll be glad to reference the scriptures via PM. I need to go, and I don't want to get into too many details that may start a debate. Edited February 1, 2009 by Lovedtodeath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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