stephanie Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I've never seen this movie, but I've heard that it has anti-church/God undertones. I was just wondering what the Christians point of view of this movie was. This is not meant to stir the pot at all...I'm just looking to understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy in Indy Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 If I remember correctly, at the end, the children kill God. (I didn't see it and haven't read the book.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephanie Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Yikes! I wasn't expecting that!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crissy Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 If I remember correctly, at the end, the children kill God. (I didn't see it and haven't read the book.) Could that be at the end of the entire series? I haven't read the books, but I don't recall anything of the sort in the movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abbeyej Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I just read The Golden Compass and The Subtle Knife this week. I was going to pick up The Amber Spyglass tomorrow... And I watched the movie this week as well. My problem with the *movie* is that it's just *bad*. It's neither a good adaptation nor a good film in its own right. The books do address the idea of another war in heaven -- rebel angels and humans banding together to defeat God. It's presented as a battle between free will and submission to an authority. Also, the church in the alternate universe is all-controlling and evil. (And the implication is that the church in our world is equally corrupt if different in form...) I haven't read the final book, so I can't comment too much on the final message of the series. But so far, the books are very well written and I can see them being good fodder for conversation with an *older* child. I might not agree with Pullman on much, but he raises interesting questions. I wouldn't read the books with younger (pre-teen) children. There are too many issues raised (beyond theology) that I would not want to address. For instance, there's a discussion of the evil of genital mutilation. It's not a major theme, but it's a point in the book, and not one I'll be ready to explain to my kids for a while yet. (There are also adults who take various lovers and manipulate each other through seduction...) It's all handled fairly subtly, but still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abbeyej Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Could that be at the end of the entire series? I haven't read the books, but I don't recall anything of the sort in the movie. Yeah, they don't even know that's their task till well into the second book... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristusG Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I actually heard that the anti-God theme in the movie was very subtle and nearly non-existent. But that by watching the movie, they were attempting to draw people to the book series where the anti-God theme and the killing of God was much more pronounced. That's just what I heard....I have never read the books nor seen the movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheryl in NM Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I haven't seen the movie because I heard it was just bad (content disregarded). I have read all 3 books. I won't let ds read them because there are just too many adult themes. I'm not afraid of him losing his faith because of the books though. My understanding was that "God" in the book was not the true God and so must be destroyed. Overlooking the "anti-God" factor of the series it is well written and an interesting story full of adventure and betreyal. Of course, after reading this series I really realized how our media and books in the last century are really geared towards demonizing religion. It was a very interesting epiphany for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 In the third book, they do kill "God," but he's not a creator or anything; he's supposed to simply be a very old angel who took control long, long ago and claimed to be God. He's now so old that all he really does is fall apart anyway. It gets pretty hamhanded by the end. The third book is very muddled and gets warped by Pullman's agenda-pushing (IMO). You could have some very good discussions around the first two books with a teen, but really, the third book has been disappointing to a lot of people who really liked the series as well; many think he squished too much into it and it should have been two books. I think they were trying to take the anti-religious elements out of the movie, but that would be pretty hard to do, really. What's the quest, if you take away the whole "inverse Paradise Lost" theme? I didn't see the film, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Governess Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 The movie actually leaves out quite a few of the book's plot points (which makes it confusing and hurts the ending, imo). The movie is more "stick it to the man" than anything else, and I think they toned down the anti-church theme quite a bit. The church is the governing organization, and it is very corrupt, but in the movie the "churchiness" of the organization is toned down, if that makes sense. The books are a different story (spoiler warning!). The first book doesn't actually present much in the way of atheism, there is a general "anti-church" feel but the church in this book is very controlling and in a few ways downright evil, so it makes sense here. The second and third books introduce such beliefs as parallel universes, evolution, the folly of self-denial, religion as a means of controlling people, etc. Yes, there is a plot to kill God, but it turns out to be unnecessary because God has turned into a weak, old creature who is himself controlled, and simply exposing him to the outside air turns him to dust. :confused: I don't think the movie is really that bad, but a child who is intrigued by it may want to read the books, and you would probably want them to be pretty grounded in their faith and be ready for some long discussions before you handed them over. On the other hand, for someone who hadn't been exposed to some of the atheistic beliefs presented, it was a learning experience for me, and I'm glad I read them (and the story is fairly engaging too). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renthead Mommy Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Honestly, without reading the book, it was just plain confusing. We went with a friend who had read all three books. I came out completley confused. Our friend said he would have too if he hadn't read the books, as they leave so much out. A number of other people have said the same. My husband was intrigued enough to get the books and is finishing reading the third now. He enjoyed them. The movie and the story line as he's told it to me doesn't do enough for me to bother reading the books, so I haven't bothered watching the second movie (or won't if it hasn't come out yet. I can't remember right now.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I did read the books (but have not seen the movie - I'm guessing a lot would get brushed over or changed there, especially with such complex themes). Yes, on the surface, they're out to kill God. But it's not quite that cut & dry - in the book, the guy they refer to as God is not the Creator. The character referred to this way (actually they don't call him "God", but he's the one the Church in their world worships) is more like an Angel, who had a fight with another Angel way back when (like Lucifer), and threw him out and took control. Over the years he's aged and is now senile, and another Angel, the second in command, has basically taken control and has become despotic. The Church in the book is very heirarchical, power and money-hungry and will suffer no heresies (think Catholic at it's most medieval and inquisition-y). There's also this whole thing about Dust - the discovery of Dust and finding out what it might be is the whole foundation for the action of the book. It's discovered this stuff is everywhere, seemingly falling from the sky and that it tends to concentrate places, especially children - after puberty it seems to diminsh greatly. It also seems only to be found in sentient beings. The bad guys from the Church are very threatened and try to figure out if they can "clean" this from the kids, which they do by separating them from their daemons (the word does not refer to demons or devils, but to these animal shaped avatar things that are basically external representations of a human's soul - although they can have thoughts of their own and can talk to the human part of them, they are actually a part/projection of the human. The book posits them as being part of some kind of trinity of the soul. If the human is killed, they disappear. If they are removed, the human cannot function and slowly or quickly dies, which is what happens to the kids that the Church is kidnapping and running experiments on). Dust basically ends up being God, or the soul of the universe, or something akin to that (although I don't know if Pullman would agree with my definition). It's what makes us sentient. It's everywhere in the universe, all around us and in us and glues everything together. The Compass in the first book basically lets the main character talk to the Dust, which has opinions and tells her what to do. It wants them to rid the universe of the despotic Angel/God so that everyone can have their own relationship and not be told what to do. There was also this problem that apparently the Angel in charge guy had been lying to everyone about the eternal salvation thing and was really locking everyone up in eternal purgatory where they were tormented by harpies - the kids in the book free the spectres of the dead, who then can return to the Dust from which they came (Dust to Dust - yes, and that is why it's called that). The books were very thought-provoking, and for that I liked them. I certainly don't agree with everything he puts out there, but it made me think about what I do believe. For older kids it could provoke some very interesting discussions. There aren't a whole lot of books for a young audience that deal with the nature of the soul. But I would not give these books to my kids yet (oldest are 10), at least till they are old enough to have the ability to more deeply think about and challenge the ideas presented, rather than just taking it at face value as an adventure story. Something that bugged me more than any theology issues (I'm pretty liberal in my beliefs) is that the main character was a liar and that seemed almost to be celebrated as a virtue rather than seen as a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWSJ Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 It was annoying because it doesn't really go anywhere or resolve anything and at the end of the movie you feel like it stops in the middle. Oh, kind of like real life then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abbeyej Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I actually heard that the anti-God theme in the movie was very subtle and nearly non-existent. But that by watching the movie, they were attempting to draw people to the book series where the anti-God theme and the killing of God was much more pronounced. I don't think it was a nefarious plot to do anything more than part filmgoers and their money. The themes from the book were watered down to try to make the movies appeal to a wider audience. (Best-selling for a book still doesn't = the ticket sales necessary for a film to be successful.) Unfortunately, with or without the anti-church/anti-Authority message of the books, the movie was just bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 My problem with the *movie* is that it's just *bad*. It's neither a good adaptation nor a good film in its own right. Agreed. I've read the whole series and liked it very much. I wouldn't say it's anti-Christian so much as troubled by the idea that organized religion may have too much power. The "God-killing" incident occurs at the end of the last book, and it is much more complicated and subtle than most critics of the books make it sound. My daughter read the first book and liked it. We both hated the movie, because it was not faithful to the book AND just plain boring. My husband, who has not read the books, thought the movie was dull, too. I've been encouraging my almost-11-year-old son to read the books, because I think he would like them and I think they would open opportunities for interesting discussions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abbeyej Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 There's also this whole thing about Dust - the discovery of Dust and finding out what it might be is the whole foundation for the action of the book. It's discovered this stuff is everywhere, seemingly falling from the sky and that it tends to concentrate places, especially children - after puberty it seems to diminsh greatly. No, vice versa. The Dust doesn't settle on children, but only on adults. The whole innocence vs experience thing. The church associates Dust with Original Sin and seeks to prevent it from settling on children by separating them from the daemons (souls) before they reach the age of experience... But without their daemons, the people are incomplete, incapable of thought and motivation and free will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I haven't seen the movie or read the books, but we are avoiding them based on the author's own words. http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/compass.asp The books may not be specifically anti-Christian, but they are meant to be. Not that i don't think our family could handle good discussions about it, but i won't give the author the time of day. There are a lot of other good books out there to spend our time on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Atl Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Loved the bks... hated the movie. It's awful, boring, etc. The cinematography is beautiful though, so I guess you could rent it and leave the volume on mute. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abbeyej Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Loved the bks... hated the movie. It's awful, boring, etc. The cinematography is beautiful though, so I guess you could rent it and leave the volume on mute. :lol: I actually thought Asriel and Lyra were well-cast. Really didn't care for the rest of the casting though... And some of the art direction I thought just looked lazy. But the story didn't come through in the movie... It just didn't make sense, nor was it intriguing in any way. Blech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Inna* Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I read only the first book. Liked the beginning and writer's style, but towards the end it was getting darker and more twisted. The scenes at the lab and what was done with these poor children made me nauseous. It felt like the author was thoroughly enjoying writing about these cruel things. I would definitely not let my kids to read it until they are ready to sort the right and wrong by themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 The church and God are the bad guys in this series. They kill God in the last book. The author is quite clear of his distaste for Christianity. Check him out on line. My daughter was furious reading these books at 9. She's here giving me info at 14. She says the way children are treated is cruel and she thinks the books are "just sick". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingmommy Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 I am sorry to say that I did read all three books and I can't remember a more poorly written series! (BTW, I don't think the children "kill" God in the last book. It's more like he dies of old age. But he's also not God in the respect that we think of God. He's basically an angel who put himself in charge.) My primary objection to the series is that it's just cr*p! The author just wanders around all over the place, the timeline doesn't work, the heroine is an obnoxious brat that for some reason the author tries to make you believe everyone just loves and would die for. Frankly, I'd smack the kid! The author's "hero" does exactly the same thing that the author is castigating the church for, but nobody catches on to that. And I have a real problem with the fact that the author seems to think 13 year olds having s*x is ok and beautiful. GAG! To me, the series reads like it has several authors who can't agree with each other. If ever I needed to define "twaddle," this series would be my definition. Ok, rant is over. Jeannie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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