Seminary question

[TechWife]

7 hours ago, Lecka said:

And still on this topic…. 

 

Okay, the lay minister I had (in a denomination that requires seminary) very openly preached sermons that she either got or got and adapted slightly from websites that would provide sermon ideas or essays, for people to use.  I liked her, I thought she did a good job.  We were lucky to have her.  
 

Okay, would this be what a professional person would choose, when they had another option?  
 

…

This happens all.the.time in evangelical churches. Many pastors use others’ material in varying degrees at all educational levels. It’s a problem, IMO. 

[TechWife]

5 hours ago, TexasProud said:

…

Yes, absolutely there are what are called bivocational pastors who work jobs.  I have never been interested in a church that small. However, I know many do.  

…

Some people think that bivocational will be the norm in the US in the not-to-distant future, especially as “mega churches” decline in attendance and normal size churches (sm, med & large) are no longer overshadowed by them. 
ETA: bi-vocational pastors can, and likely should, have a seminary, masters level educations. Bi-vocational simply means they have a job outside of the church. 

Edited August 27 by TechWife

[DawnM]

10 hours ago, TechWife said:

This happens all.the.time in evangelical churches. Many pastors use others’ material in varying degrees at all educational levels. It’s a problem, IMO. 

There have been a number of pastors in our area who have been fired for plagiarism.   The last one was a church we have visited a few times.   It was a church plant of a larger church we attended for years.   Anyway, this particular pastor had been put on leave for plagiarism in the past and had done it again.   They asked him directly and he lied and said it was his original idea, but they easily found his sermons online that were almost word for word.   That time he was let go.

I don't know how I feel about it.   As a former PS teacher (currently a PS Counselor) I got ideas and lessons from others and just put my own spin on the lesson.  Not sure how different it is?   Maybe the main issue was taking credit when it wasn't original?   I am not sure.

[Chris in VA]

21 hours ago, Ethel Mertz said:

My denomination (Episcopal) requires seminary. (Full disclosure: I’m an Episcopal priest)

Ohn I forgot that about you🙂

 

[Katy]

I’m under the impression that Catholics have a standardized liturgical calendar so that if you go to church daily you’ll hear the whole bible (minus genealogy) once a year, and if you only go on Sundays you hear it every 3 years. And that their (sorry, I’m forgetting the Catholic word for) sermons are always based on the chapters read. So they are, in effect, planned in perpetuity and you can go to any Catholic church anywhere and hear the same Bible reading and the sermons have a high probability of being on the same topic. 

I’ve heard a few times from Methodist, Lutheran, and I think one Episcopalian pastor that they do roughly the same thing, even if it isn’t required. 

On that basis I guess I don’t care if a pastor takes notes from online sermons…. But just outright plagiarism makes me think they didn’t even think about the topic enough to put it in their own words or pray about nuance? That’s worse than lazy. It’s unethical, especially for someone meant to be leading people into a closer relationship with God. 

[scholastica]

3 minutes ago, Katy said:

I’m under the impression that Catholics have a standardized liturgical calendar so that if you go to church daily you’ll hear the whole bible (minus genealogy) once a year, and if you only go on Sundays you hear it every 3 years. And that their (sorry, I’m forgetting the Catholic word for) sermons are always based on the chapters read. So they are, in effect, planned in perpetuity and you can go to any Catholic church anywhere and hear the same Bible reading and the sermons have a high probability of being on the same topic. 

I’ve heard a few times from Methodist, Lutheran, and I think one Episcopalian pastor that they do roughly the same thing, even if it isn’t required. 

On that basis I guess I don’t care if a pastor takes notes from online sermons…. But just outright plagiarism makes me think they didn’t even think about the topic enough to put it in their own words or pray about nuance? That’s worse than lazy. It’s unethical, especially for someone meant to be leading people into a closer relationship with God. 

Catholics do not hear the whole Bible in a year or even three. There is a lectionary cycle that goes for three years, but it does not encompass the whole Bible. Each year highlights a different Gospel on Sundays. Year A- Matthew, Year B- mostly Mark, but also a fair amount of John, Year C- Luke. There are other readings from the OT and NT each day, as well. Even with that, there’s a lot in the Bible that most people would not want to hear in church and/or in front of children. I’ve been Catholic for nearly 30 years and I have experienced many different takes and perspectives in homilies on the readings over those years. There are priests who just phone it in and reuse the same material, but that doesn’t happen very often. 
 

We do have a 7-9 year seminary formation for our priests (unless they already have a bachelors then it is shorter). They earn a 4 year degree and then go on for 2 or more years of study. They recently added a “propaedeutic” year in our local seminary in which the young men have no phones, very limited internet access and learn to live the life of prayer and study necessary. They have found that young men are coming in addicted to their phones (and worse) and need to detox and often have counseling and support to be ready. 
 

I appreciate that our priests have had that much study, and wish they were required to have continuing education.

[TechWife]

6 hours ago, DawnM said:

There have been a number of pastors in our area who have been fired for plagiarism.   The last one was a church we have visited a few times.   It was a church plant of a larger church we attended for years.   Anyway, this particular pastor had been put on leave for plagiarism in the past and had done it again.   They asked him directly and he lied and said it was his original idea, but they easily found his sermons online that were almost word for word.   That time he was let go.

I don't know how I feel about it.   As a former PS teacher (currently a PS Counselor) I got ideas and lessons from others and just put my own spin on the lesson.  Not sure how different it is?   Maybe the main issue was taking credit when it wasn't original?   I am not sure.

I do think that the problem is taking credit for non-original work. It's one thing to use something as resource, even to quote someone else. Even crediting someone for a full sermon is fine (but still something that shouldn't be done IMO). The problem comes in when someone takes full credit for it. Not only are they taking credit for the material they present, they are also taking credit for having done research they didn't do and for having knowledge they may or may not have a strong grasp on. It is the entire body of work that is being plagiarized, not just the words. I think there's a reason the phrase "a body of work" is used. It's so much more encompassing than whatever words are published, orally or in written form. It could be a huge problem for a church if their pastor is deceiving his congregation about his or her knowledge base because it directly addresses competency for the job.

Edited August 28 by TechWife

[kbutton]

On 8/27/2024 at 7:27 PM, TechWife said:

 The only exception I’ve experienced is for music ministers who might have a bachelors in music education from a Bible college. Unfortunately, the church I attend no longer requires the “worship leader” to have a bachelors degree in anything, and it shows. In many churches the music minister role is filled by a volunteer. Often that volunteer is a school music teacher of some sort and so has a bachelor’s in a music discipline. The “worship leader” movement has really diluted that down though. 

There is a lot about the worship movement in general that gives me pause. I grew up in an area that didn’t have paid music ministers (or they might get an honorarium). That doesn’t mean they were less professional. They often competently led music, conducted choirs, etc. I think this is more of a modern problem with style over substance, not the job qualifications, at least in non-liturgical churches. It was terribly unusual for lots of small churches to expect the pastor’s wife to be playing the piano—unfair maybe, but not odd. Around here, you need a light show and a willingness to lose your hearing by age 40 to lead worship, which might be permissible for worship, but seems quite peripheral. One of qualifications for our semi-recent church search was that they left the normal lights on at least most of the way. I don’t need to feel like I am in a basement night club, thanks but no thanks.

On 8/28/2024 at 12:05 PM, TechWife said:

I do think that the problem is taking credit for non-original work. It's one thing to use something as resource, even to quote someone else. Even crediting someone for a full sermon is fine (but still something that shouldn't be done IMO). The problem comes in when someone takes full credit for it. Not only are they taking credit for the material they present, they are also taking credit for having done research they didn't do and for having knowledge they may or may not have a strong grasp on. It is the entire body of work that is being plagiarized, not just the words. I think there's a reason the phrase "a body of work" is used. It's so much more encompassing than whatever words are published, orally or in written form. It could be a huge problem for a church if their pastor is deceiving his congregation about his or her knowledge base because it directly addresses competency for the job.

I think the lack of credit and lack of effort/work are a problem. I don’t think that in difficult circumstances having a lay minister use sermons with full credit and disclosure is ethically problematic. I don’t think that having a few sermons a year that you acknowledge are recycled from a dear mentor when you are busy are a problem.

Preaching styles vary a lot from well-researched notes delivered extemporaneously to meticulously written and memorized or read, so a borrowed sermon could be delivered word for word or quite simply be pre-outlined but well-researched and customized by the borrower—it doesn’t have to indicate a lack of mastery of the material.

Lots of people consult verse by verse commentaries for a sermon, but write it all themselves, and over time develop their own style even when consulting favorite resources. I know a very good pastor who started preaching this way and definitely learned how to make his own. He also was up front about this, and I think he eventually had a seminary degree, but this was a formative step for him as he was figuring out that he wanted to be a pastor.

Before it became common to record/broadcast sermons of every day pastors, pastors often just had outlines of prior sermons they or others wrote (unless they were the write out every word type), so even if they were re-preaching them, they were different the next time through. It’s like a teacher using a curriculum, but customizing activities and making it their own. I had wildly different lessons from more than one teacher using the same resources—this is the kind of stuff I saw growing up.

I do know that it has become a big thing now to plagiarize wholesale or not give credit at all or even research sermons, and I think people need to be wary of that. That is especially problematic when the pastor is doing it on the sly and drawing a full-time salary!

[Clarita]

I don't think I've ever been a part of a denomination or church that didn't require ordination and seminary. While I think going to seminary and going through an ordination process is good; I don't think I would judge a preacher just on that.

I've heard good sermons from people who haven't done all the things. Anyone can phone in a sermon, and anyone can plagiarize. Based on the amount of cheating that happens at colleges and universities I'm not sure just having a degree means you are less likely to do that. I also think that there's more to the job than giving sermons. I've experienced fully educated pastor not be able to provide spiritual care, which I find to be the more important part of the job.  

Edited August 30 by Clarita
change wording ...

[rebcoola]

On 8/27/2024 at 11:03 AM, TexasProud said:

Ok, y'all are talking about different types of churches.  Ok, when I hear Baptist, I think Southern Baptist.  

 

My former church was an SBC church all but 1 year we had a seminary trained pastor as one of the elders but it was absolutely not required.