Where Do You Store Dirty Dishes?

[Heartstrings]

12 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Sometimes, I think we commit ourselves to things because our vision of our selves is significantly different from our reality. And when someone points out that our reality is not who we actually are, we get testy

Very well put.  

[kathyl]

My (retired) dh does the dishes sometimes.  It's just not an either/or thing.  Sometimes he does them, sometimes I do them.  But when he does do them and cleans the kitchen, I sometimes find myself having to go behind him to actually clean (stove still greasy and dirty, sinks still smell like food, counters still have food stuck to them, floor sticky, trash can overflowing, etc.).  And when I don't do that, that's when we get trails of ants.  So what I do now is ask him to "clean up the kitchen so I can cook", and then I go in there and 'finish' it after he's done.  Less work for me and it actually gets clean.  Then, I load the dishes as I'm cooking and start the (lousy) dishwasher when I'm done.

When dh was working - always long hours - I did most of the chores.  And dc did a lot when they were home.  Dc and I scheduled it so almost all of the chores were done before dh got home.  Dh did the car stuff and some of the outside stuff that dc couldn't do. 

I had tried to get dh to do inside chores ages ago, but it just wasn't worth the effort.  Plus, I was home all day and had my own methods of getting it all done.  And my own standards that I wanted to pass on to my kids, which I did.  I'm another who thinks that the whole 'fairness' thing just never panned out like my generation was told it would.

I understand what you're saying about people just saying a simple, obvious thing like "Would you help me this time by _____?"   But some people just aren't made like that, for better or for worse.  I live with one of those.  Before they would ever do the most simple and obvious things like asking for help, they would rather try to manipulate, trick, guilt trip, harangue, etc., me into doing the thing.  Because of that, I stopped expecting blood from this turnip years ago.  Hopefully, your dh isn't one of those turnips.  😉 

Truth be told, I actually enjoy doing the chores and seeing the fruits of my efforts at the end of a hard day - a clean house and a delicious meal.  I've even learned to enjoy cooking which I hated for a long time.  It's become a kind of creative outlet for me over the years.       

I'm glad you've gotten an appointment soon.  I hope it helps.   

[kbutton]

Our division is a bit weird, but so is DH’s schedule, and I don’t work except seasonally.

I hope your session goes well and adds some light to the situation.

[marbel]

4 hours ago, bolt. said:

It seems, in answer to my question, that most of you don't choose to even try to function in a chore system that involves anyone else doing the dishes. Thank you. I know those are honest answers to my actual question of, "What do you do in your home about this?" At times, those answers really felt a lot like what my DH said when he was angry, "If you don't like it, do it yourself." -- which made me very angry when he said it. I don't understand how, if one worker doesn't do their job, and their co-worker notices and is annoyed, it's right for it then to just shift over become the second person's job. That feels like a lose-lose perspective: either I find more patience, or I do more work. (But I recognize that analysis is classic black-and-white thinking, which means it's probably an error... but I can't find the error in it right now.)

I appreciate your honest response and further questioning. I was hoping this thread would help.

Re the bolded and your comment about an error:  I think if there is an error. it's is in equating a marriage (or personal partnership) with a paid job with no emotional attachment.  It is just not the same. 

4 hours ago, bolt. said:

DH has a chronic illness, and he works a demanding job full-time-plus on a daily basis. He already does, it seems to me, virtually nothing of a household nature besides dishes, cat boxes, trash and his personal laundry. It already doesn't seem fair, If we remove dishes from his responsibilities, I'm not sure I could do anything other than feel like a maid/housewife from the 1950s.

So, I am pretty much a housewife from the 1950s. And I like it that way. When the kids were little and later when I was homeschooling, I did as much as I could to help my husband manage our life and his demanding job. Since ending homeschooling, it's continued that way, except for a 4-year period when I went to work because my husband had gotten laid off. He was out of work for 3 years; after he made it through the first year of re-employment, we decided I could retire and resume my homemaker role, and we are both happier. 

I don't remember: do you have a job outside the home? I think in general if there is one person not working, or a person working, say, part time to the other person's full time, the one not working/working less would naturally do more of the work of the house. Even when I was taking care of kids/homeschooling, I had more free time than my husband did. I know it is not that way for every couple/family. And when he was unemployed he took on a lot of the house stuff. 

I don't think my husband and I ever specifically laid out each person's duties; things just came about organically as we played to our strengths, which, fortunately, mesh pretty well.  I think things are mostly fair, though to be honest, I think he might have a case that I don't spend as many hours at work as he does, if he ever wanted to. 

I hope your appointment goes well and you get some clarity! 💗

[Scarlett]

4 hours ago, SKL said:  fairness is a mental construct that we might not actually need in every transaction.

Agree.  
 

@bolt.I am glad you are ok….I was worried we went too far down the rabbit trail to be of much help.  
 

 

[JustEm]

Our division of labor is ever evolving. Early in our marriage I did everything because we were in a small house, he worked full time, and raising a few babies/toddlers was not difficult.

As our family got bigger and finances got tighter I started working again part time. So, he started trying to do more at home. He'd fail at that a lot.

Then I started homeschooling multiple kids while also having littles,we got a bigger house, and he started working only 40 hours a week. But he was also experiencing depression for the first time in his life so he still couldn't contribute  the way I needed him too.

Marriage was difficult because I felt underappreciated and undervalued.  dh would try to assure me he appreciated everything I did and wanted to do better showing it. But in my eyes he often failed at it. It was a really confusing time because we were best friends (still are) and loved spending all our time together. Dh saw that connection and thought all was good, while I saw it as me ignoring my feelings because I didn't want to feel that way while having time with him. But it also exploded into hurt feelings when things got too stressful for me to keep quiet.

Things didn't get better until we started meeting weekly to work on our communication together and really figure out what things he could take off my plate that he would actually do consistently. We started with him taking over the weekly bathroom cleaning. I just stopped paying attention to the bathrooms and some weeks they'd get cleaned and others they wouldn't. He also had a different definition of what cleaning the bathrooms meant(still does.) I'd step in to clean if they started smelling and would mention that during our weekly meeting. It took time but he now consistently does them and is receptive to me expanding on his definition of bathroom cleaning (for example, sometimes the shower and tub need to be cleaned, or the floor needs to be mopped.) He still doesn't take the trash out. 

The other thing he took over was making breakfast every morning and making dinner on the weekends. This works to his strengths and interests because he likes cooking and baking, while I hate doing both. Now that he comes home at a normal time most nights I start dinner and he finishes it.

We also do a lot as a team. The dishes is a team effort. Kids put away clean ones. I handle breakfast and lunch dishes since I'm home. after dinner cleanup is done as a team. one of us does the dishes and the other is clearing the table, wiping things down, and sweeping/mopping. 

figuring out what works for your family is important and figuring out why one spouse is carrying less of the weight is usually a deeper issue than the tasks themselves. Dh and I were able to figure that out on our own without couples counseling. But it likely would have been less painful if we had a third party leading discussions.

 

[Kanin]

Same here. I'm embarrassed to admit it, but it's true. I've also done the cry, scream, talk rationally thing, and nothing has worked long term. DH appears to be a pretty enlightened man (even a feminist!) but not with this, apparently. It really hurts and offends me if I think about it too much, so I try to move along. It's not right, but it's how it is right now.

 

18 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I do 90% of the household work, in a way that is not fair or evenly distributed and my husband helps when asked specifically.  I think your black-and-white analysis is spot on, except that I don't want to blow up my whole family over household work, unlike if a co worker annoyed me.  It's NOT fair and I do resent it at times.  I just decided that either 1) we can divorce, 2) I can get over it, or 3) we can live in misery fighting over all of it and I chose option 2 with some dabbling in option 3.   The same decision many of our mothers and grandmothers made.  Making him do more of the work so things are fair is not possible, I have tried.  I have cried, I have screamed, I have talked rationally.  I can't actually force him to do it though.  So I do more than my fair share and we go on.  

(yes, I do mean 90%. I do the yard work and take the cars to the shop. I organize the garage, I do the budget and the investments. I do all the things men usually point to as their contributions. It's not that I don't "see" the contribution, it really is just that I do the vast majority)

Edited October 24, 2023 by Kanin

[almondbutterandjelly]

It sounds like your chore system isn't working.  Also, gently, maybe your communication?  So dh does our dishes.  We generally store dirty dishes in one half of the sink.  If it's been long enough that I need the space or the dishes, I will do the dishes.  They are my dishes, too, after all.  We also buy paper plates to stretch out the length of time needed between tending to the dishes, because we are all short of time, and, frankly, nobody ENJOYS doing dishes.

If I had to cook and needed some dirty dishes or space, I would make that happen, without resentment.  That's just how life goes.  It's no comment against me or my worth.

If I really didn't want to do the dishes, I would find a way to word something to dh nicely about it.  After all, I don't want to offend him or start a fight.  I literally would just want the dishes done.  Sometimes men are particular about wording.  Something about their socialization, I forget the exact thing.  So I might say, when you have a chance, would you be able to do the dishes before I cook next (and name an exact time)?  If he expresses that he is too busy, then I will just do them.  (I'm sure there are lots of times I don't do things on his timeframe as well.). But if he does them, then I tell him Thank you, and might mention how awesome he is. Because really, my opinion is that nobody has to do my dishes.  Nobody has to cook for others.  We do it to be nice and because it is an efficient way to make things happen.  But gratitude is important.  It is a kindness to me and our family that he does dishes.  It is a kindness to him and my family when I do my "chores."  Nobody is required.  When we keep that in mind, it is very easy to be kind and respectful and forgiving.

((hugs to you))

[JustEm]

I will say, I was actually willing to leave dh over our division of labor issues. Not because it really was about the housework getting done or only about that. It was a reflection on his inability to be a partner in our marriage and appreciate me in a way where I actually felt appreciated. I knew he loved me, but I didn't feel loved. I didn't feel like I mattered enough to him to put in the real effort it took to fix the issues in our marriage, which once again weren't just division of labor issues that was a symptom of other issues, mostly communication.

That is why when I asked for a separation he felt completely blindsided.  He saw us fighting over something, spending a few days mulling over it silently,  apologizing, having a heartfelt discussion about making changes, and then making up as working on our marriage. Where I just saw it all as empty promises that were slowly chipping away at my ability to give a shit about salvaging our marriage.

The intention of the separation wasn't to end up divorced. But it was to show that I was no longer willing to go on living my life the way it was because I didn't view what we had as a marriage anymore. I made it clear that I was willing to fix things but I was no longer willing to be the person to come up with solutions. I left that all in his hands because I had been doing it for our entire marriage by myself, in a way.

That was the kick in the butt dh needed to finally be able to figure out how we could make real fixes. One of the first things we realized was that our thought processes were entirely different and we both needed to reframe our thinking to understand each other. We were only separated for 3 months but it took a good year and a half for us to feel like we had really figured out how to be partners again in a healthy marriage and for me to trust the changes were permanent.

[fairfarmhand]

22 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

I will say, I was actually willing to leave dh over our division of labor issues. Not because it really was about the housework getting done or only about that. It was a reflection on his inability to be a partner in our marriage and appreciate me in a way where I actually felt appreciated. I knew he loved me, but I didn't feel loved. I didn't feel like I mattered enough to him to put in the real effort it took to fix the issues in our marriage, which once again weren't just division of labor issues that was a symptom of other issues, mostly communication.

That is why when I asked for a separation he felt completely blindsided.  He saw us fighting over something, spending a few days mulling over it silently,  apologizing, having a heartfelt discussion about making changes, and then making up as working on our marriage. Where I just saw it all as empty promises that were slowly chipping away at my ability to give a shit about salvaging our marriage.

The intention of the separation wasn't to end up divorced. But it was to show that I was no longer willing to go on living my life the way it was because I didn't view what we had as a marriage anymore. I made it clear that I was willing to fix things but I was no longer willing to be the person to come up with solutions. I left that all in his hands because I had been doing it for our entire marriage by myself, in a way.

That was the kick in the butt dh needed to finally be able to figure out how we could make real fixes. One of the first things we realized was that our thought processes were entirely different and we both needed to reframe our thinking to understand each other. We were only separated for 3 months but it took a good year and a half for us to feel like we had really figured out how to be partners again in a healthy marriage and for me to trust the changes were permanent.

Yeah. Often these things are not about dishes.

Because when its *just* dishes, that can be worked out with two healthy, mature adults. (which is why there are so many people who are going "I just do them and it's no big deal to me.")

When it's more than dishes, the dishes become a symptom (among many) of all the bigger issues.

[Pam in CT]

Yeah. If one person in a household is truly tottering on the edge of despair/ departure from the relationship... it's not about the dishes.  When the big picture is more or less balanced, the little stuff registers in its proper proportion, and can be dealt with accordingly. When people generally feel heard and valued and loved, they're able to adjust, accommodate, backfill one another's relative weaknesses, show grace in the inevitable intervals when one has more to give than the other and etc.

If one person is truly tottering on the edge of despair/ departure from the relationship, it's about a much more fundamental inability to communicate effectively enough to get to a sustained place where everyone is adequately nourished **in the relationship.** 

Dishes, schmishes.  That's just a refraction.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Pam in CT
exceedingly silly typo

[Clarita]

3 hours ago, almondbutterandjelly said:

Sometimes men are particular about wording.  Something about their socialization, I forget the exact thing.  So I might say, when you have a chance, would you be able to do the dishes before I cook next (and name an exact time)?

Chris Voss author of Never Split the Difference: Negotiating as if Your Life Depended on It has really helped me figure out communication between DH and me. I don't know how effective those methods are regarding speaking to women but speaking to men his method absolutely resonates with them. 

The key take away for me is to make my communications with DH and DS not about winning, but about here's a problem let's find a solution. Or a better way of viewing it is to make discussions not a win or lose against me but against the problem. 

It also helps me to really figure out what "the problem" is, because let's face it the problem is not DH does the dishes poorly. It's probably something like not feeling truly appreciated, having too much on my plate, not feeling cared for, etc. From there it's easier to find a solution that everyone can actually follow through on.

The thing is when everyone's needs are being met (and this does include some wants being met too) complete fairness doesn't matter anymore.   

[JustEm]

8 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Yeah. Often these things are not about dishes.

Because when its *just* dishes, that can be worked out with two healthy, mature adults. (which is why there are so many people who are going "I just do them and it's no big deal to me.")

When it's more than dishes, the dishes become a symptom (among many) of all the bigger issues.

Exactly. Now that dh and I are in a healthy marriage where we communicate well there are no issues with dishes or other chores. While we have designated tasks in theory we are both always trying to make things just keep running smoothly, so we handle things like dishes as they need to get done. Or pick up the slack when one person is struggling, with zero resentment attached.

But it took time and a lot of work to get there again.