Question about church youth groups

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

When my ASD child goes to church(which he hates but sometimes his siblings are doing something like singing or doing a Scripture reading and I want to be there) he uses his kindle for the Bible reading. I am 94% sure he is not actually reading the Bible, but he does turn to the correct page.

in youth group, the few times he’s attended, the pastor reads aloud and that helps. DS can read well, but loses all interest the moment he hits an unfamiliar word. They are supposed to put phones up during activities and prayer.  It sounds like your son will use the phone appropriately as a quiet fidget and I would use that angle, all my kid does on his is watch the same five YouTube videos on dogs and then wanting to tell everyone all the details, so I fully support DS being made to put it up.

Church overall has been an issue. our church has been accommodating though; they have an autistic adult who vocalizes during services and who sometimes needs to use the foyer, and that is fine. No one blinked an eye that I let DS watch a(church appropriate in case anyone glanced at the screen) movie on his kindle with one headphone on during the sermon. And some of the music bothers him, so his aunt(the music director) let’s me know the song list ahead of time so we know when to quietly step out.

I am working on a program to help churches be more inclusive. I may start a new thread for ideas but feel free to pm me.

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

Ok, so you just need to ask for accomodations. I think YOU have to come up with those though, because the people running youth group don't know what your son needs. As we all know, if you have met one person on the spectrum you've met one person on the spectrum - they might know what worked for another kid, but they have no idea what will help your kid. You need to ask for what he needs and most likely they will be fine with it. 

Thank you, I think you're right. I'm working with him now to make some acceptable, workable options.

I was thinking about your comment about the tech, and you know they could say in a pouch, on his person was good enough too. He has sort of a man bag thing he wears some places. Holding it in a private place but not having it out would be a way to lower his stress. Handing it to me instead of putting it on their table would lower stress. I think you're right that it's so easy to want someone else to figure it out and we have to hash out a list of paths like this for ourselves, what fits him. If he can have *choice* he will be much more comfortable. He's much closer in profile to what they call PDA. So it's autism, but he brings this bonus hackles go up if you're not careful thing. We have that stabilized, but that is not some infinite thing, sigh. It's why it's 2, not 1 for the support level. Heart burn level support vs ulcer level? 🤣 I have no clue.

5 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

If you want to keep trying the print Bible, could you ask them the day before or right before if they would share what verses/passages they are going to use, so you can mark them for him before hand? Maybe even preread them? 

Otherwise, as other's said, a kindle with a bible might work, but not sure how easy those are to find passages in. Would have to play around with it. 

Or, just use the phone and they allow it, which I'm sure they will if you explain that he needs it due to learning issues. 

Yeah I was googling last night for instruction on idioms of the Bible. I think I need to teach him the *language* of the Bible and go through it. So we could practice looking up the verses for that, which would build proficiency. We've done *some* but it was such an awkward path that we didn't persist. It's like math disability. If your kid "can" do the math but it takes them 5 minutes to do one problem, you hand them a calculator. 🤣

I love your hopefulness about this!! I will embrace it and hope for the best. 

[ScoutTN]

@PeterPan I hope your convo with the youth staff goes well! 
 

Our staff would totally accommodate issues like your son’s as soon as they understood them. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by ScoutTN

[kbutton]

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

And it upsets me because I've been talking with him YEARS now trying to get him back into church. And he's finally at a place where he's willing to try and they pull this. 

I couldn't even IMAGINE so much stupidity to prewarn him. 

Have you visited or considered visiting the youth group without him so that you can see the environment firsthand?

They are not (usually) designed with calmness and regulation in mind. Or they expect kids to flip calm on and off like a switch.

ETA: I guess I’m saying that even if he can participate because you work it all out, is it an environment you want him in? That would be my starting point.

Some of these groups aren’t even all that great for NT kids. Some are amazing. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by kbutton

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Thank you, I think you're right. I'm working with him now to make some acceptable, workable options.

I was thinking about your comment about the tech, and you know they could say in a pouch, on his person was good enough too. He has sort of a man bag thing he wears some places. Holding it in a private place but not having it out would be a way to lower his stress. Handing it to me instead of putting it on their table would lower stress. I think you're right that it's so easy to want someone else to figure it out and we have to hash out a list of paths like this for ourselves, what fits him. If he can have *choice* he will be much more comfortable. He's much closer in profile to what they call PDA. So it's autism, but he brings this bonus hackles go up if you're not careful thing. We have that stabilized, but that is not some infinite thing, sigh. It's why it's 2, not 1 for the support level. Heart burn level support vs ulcer level? 🤣 I have no clue.

Yeah I was googling last night for instruction on idioms of the Bible. I think I need to teach him the *language* of the Bible and go through it. So we could practice looking up the verses for that, which would build proficiency. We've done *some* but it was such an awkward path that we didn't persist. It's like math disability. If your kid "can" do the math but it takes them 5 minutes to do one problem, you hand them a calculator. 🤣

I love your hopefulness about this!! I will embrace it and hope for the best. 

honestly, after reading your description of his issues with number sense, and his level of stress going up if he has to give up his phone (because he uses it for problem solving), I'd be pushing to let him use his phone. And then work with him on proficiency with a print Bible at home, but not worrying about if/when he's ready to do that at church/youth group. For now, just ask for him to use a Bible app on his phone due to significant learning disabilities. And IF he is using his phone inappropriately at other times, have them let you know so you can address it if/when that is an issue. But if he can use it JUST for looking up Bible verses and put it in his pant's pocket or bag otherwise, that should be seen as reasonable to the staff. 

[Clemsondana]

Most churches that we have been in or know about have struggled with how to include everybody, especially in youth.  Adult classes tend to sort themselves out not just by age, but by temperament or lifestyle or something, while all youth are lumped together.  We have discussed having 'intro' and 'advanced' Bible classes because we have some kids who want serious Bible study and others, especially the neighborhood kids who just wander in, want fun games and a quick lesson.  We've been through some changes and don't have the numbers to accommodate that right now, but that's the goal.  

Lots of youth stuff is really chaotic and loud, so that's also something that you might want to watch for and ask about.  In our situation, Sunday school is a quiet lesson and discussion.  There is a table and also a circle of chairs.  One of the autistic girls sits at the table and is calm if she colors. Sometimes she has an ipad and draws on it, but she is happy with paper so we give her that and colored pencils when we can just to avoid devices if we don't need them.  We really are happy to make any accommodation but we can't know what a kid needs without being told, so the policies in place change but are based on the kids and behaviors that we see in the kids that we have.  Wednesday night activities are often heavy on middle schoolers who like getting really loud with the icebreaker games, so I know that they are simultaneously trying to teach them that fun does not have to equal screaming while trying not to chase off the older or quieter kids who find this to either be nonsense or sensory overload.  My older, who finds it to be both, manages it by arriving late, after the icebreaker is over.  🙂  

I'm sure that our youth director would be happy to tell a parent what the planned lesson topic, Bible verse, or schedule for a meeting would be.  At least in our church, there are many discussions around how to help kids without making them feel singled out, but we can only do it once we know what the issues are.  

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

When my ASD child goes to church(which he hates but sometimes his siblings are doing something like singing or doing a Scripture reading and I want to be there) he uses his kindle for the Bible reading. I am 94% sure he is not actually reading the Bible, but he does turn to the correct page.

in youth group, the few times he’s attended, the pastor reads aloud and that helps. DS can read well, but loses all interest the moment he hits an unfamiliar word. They are supposed to put phones up during activities and prayer.  It sounds like your son will use the phone appropriately as a quiet fidget and I would use that angle, all my kid does on his is watch the same five YouTube videos on dogs and then wanting to tell everyone all the details, so I fully support DS being made to put it up.

Church overall has been an issue. our church has been accommodating though; they have an autistic adult who vocalizes during services and who sometimes needs to use the foyer, and that is fine. No one blinked an eye that I let DS watch a(church appropriate in case anyone glanced at the screen) movie on his kindle with one headphone on during the sermon. And some of the music bothers him, so his aunt(the music director) let’s me know the song list ahead of time so we know when to quietly step out.

I am working on a program to help churches be more inclusive. I may start a new thread for ideas but feel free to pm me.

This makes me smile on so many levels. What I WISH the church was doing and what I WISH I had the energy to make happen myself? A disability appropriate Bible study. One where they don't put people on the spot. One where they don't use any figurative language. One where they use a language level for the text that is not a barrier. One where they help kids get so comfortable that they're in the door. 

I actually know a lady (in a city too far for me to go to regularly, like literally 2 ½ hours, too far, sigh) who is doing this. They meet every 2-4 weeks and have a theme like "God loves you" or "God wants to be your friend" or something on the happy, non emotion roiling side. And it's show up and you be you at the level you are you. And nonverbal on a communication board is cool. Everything is cool, because the only thing is to let them come, let them be there.

People always have this idealistic "he has so much potential" viewpoint of my ds. It's sort of half and half. He does, but that doesn't mean it's easy. It's hard to stretch and be comfortable, kwim? You shouldn't need bromelain after your Bible study because you stretched so hard you're aching.

Yeah I can't guarantee that my ds would *not* decide to tune people out as the novelty wore off. But I think your experience with it NOT WORKING is also kind of the norm. And the leaders then can say they're awesome because those kids don't even show up to push their paradigm. And I'm with you. I told my ds he could do ANYTHING if he'd just be in the service. I'm like put on headphones and watch a video, I don't care, ANYTHING, and he wouldn't go. 

I wish we had enough maturity in the church that kids extended themselves out to others and became buddies. We don't, sigh. Lots of reasons for that, but I'm just saying. And *I* nurture it in my ds. I get on his case when I take him places, which I do a LOT. I ask him if anyone was alone, anyone didn't have a friend, and I ask if he made sure someone talked to them if he went and talked to them. But no, no reverse consideration like that. But I'm teaching my ds with ASD2 to do it because it's the RIGHT THING to do. But the kids don't do that for my ds. Fine, whatever, their loss.

My ds is actually crazy fun. It really is their loss.

[PeterPan]

14 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

When my ASD child goes to church(which he hates but sometimes his siblings are doing something like singing or doing a Scripture reading and I want to be there

I just wanted to go back to this again because I REALLY appreciate you sharing it. It's so real that this is happening and it's just kind of in the shadows of the church, sigh.

I was thinking too that if you do something, you could do it online. Some people with autism can handle things online. Like Zoom without a requirement to have the video on, maybe just an avatar for your screen. My ds can do online like that. Not all people can, so it's not a path for all people. However I'm just saying it's a path to get more *together* for people who *are* comfortable with that method. 

That's just thinking out loud. 

And yes the music was crazy hard. We tried the music ahead thing. The language is complex. Sometimes I just get tired and give up.

Edited September 15, 2023 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

15 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I am working on a program to help churches be more inclusive. I may start a new thread for ideas but feel free to pm me.

Ok, the irony is that after all that jazz of oh an autism Bible study should be all mushy feely and kind, I'm sitting here realizing that what I need to do with my ds is a study of the idioms of the Bible. 🤣 So when I look at what WORKS with my ds, it's always small chunks with engagement. Anything intriguing I can chunk will work. He likes it to be relevant and wishes it all were, but he'll put up with *intriguing*. 

Think about how much the language of the church creates barriers. I tried to explain this to ds, that many people didn't go to a Bible college for 4-6 years, don't have lots of training, so they just memorize and spit back exactly what they memorized. And then he's sitting there like whoa you hit me with a metaphor cannon ball and I have NO CLUE what you meant. 

So it could be another way to think through it, like is the goal to create a parallel universe in the church or is the goal intervention to fill the gaps so they're ready to go into a mainstream environment? Both can be completely valid but I'm just thinking it through in my own mind.

[Clemsondana]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

 

I wish we had enough maturity in the church that kids extended themselves out to others and became buddies. We don't, sigh. Lots of reasons for that, but I'm just saying. And *I* nurture it in my ds. I get on his case when I take him places, which I do a LOT. I ask him if anyone was alone, anyone didn't have a friend, and I ask if he made sure someone talked to them if he went and talked to them. But no, no reverse consideration like that. But I'm teaching my ds with ASD2 to do it because it's the RIGHT THING to do. But the kids don't do that for my ds. Fine, whatever, their loss.

My ds is actually crazy fun. It really is their loss.

I'll say that this is likely worse, but isn't just a problem for non-neurotypical kids.  In our particular church, there are times when kids who don't go to the closest middle school struggle to fit in.  My kid has said that 'Girl C' is really awesome and tired of the girl nonsense but worries that if she doesn't hang with her middle school friends when at church then they'll exclude her at school.  Not being confident is common in youth, and it takes a certain personality to not fear being judged and excluded.  My older, who is quirky, tends to get along with an unusual assortment in part because kid could not care less what other people think.  My younger is very welcoming to the shy but wouldn't know what to do with anybody who has unusual behavior - kid would be kind, but would find it disconcerting while older, who is usually seen as 'less social', just takes people as they come and avoids anybody who is obnoxious.  Just a reminder that neurotypical kids have strengths and weakness in their skill set and often find that activities push them out of their comfort zone, too.  

[PeterPan]

17 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Have you visited or considered visiting the youth group without him so that you can see the environment firsthand?

They are not (usually) designed with calmness and regulation in mind. Or they expect kids to flip calm on and off like a switch. 

That would have been smart advice. 🤣🤣🤣

And I was trying to give him some space, so I didn't stay and observe. Yes, you are correct that this is NOT a calm setting. I think they were playing a really amped up version of capture the flag. And they played for what felt to him like a long time. He liked it, but I agree that was one of the things I was trying to sort out was whether he left that "happy yellow zone" and right at the limits of what he could hold together with regulation so then ANY surprise and pow was a huge deal.

So I agree, transition time could be very wise, and I agree NT people could be completely oblivious on that need. Do you do advocacy to make that happen for your peeps or do they do it for themselves or they just get to where they don't need it? 

It's definitely something I'm trying to take a deep breath and think through because I suspected that HIGH time was so high that it was really hard to calm down from. I'm just not sure what I do with it. If they take water breaks and walk it off, that would be enough. I can ask. Drinking water is very regulating because of the muscles it engages. It slows down your breathing because you breathe through your nose. You have to walk to get the water bottle, so you're walking away and transitioning. 

I need some more thought process on how this is supposed to look. I have zero experience with nutso high school activities. I was a pretty serious high schooler. 🤣

[Clemsondana]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, the irony is that after all that jazz of oh an autism Bible study should be all mushy feely and kind, I'm sitting here realizing that what I need to do with my ds is a study of the idioms of the Bible. 🤣 So when I look at what WORKS with my ds, it's always small chunks with engagement. Anything intriguing I can chunk will work. He likes it to be relevant and wishes it all were, but he'll put up with *intriguing*. 

Think about how much the language of the church creates barriers. I tried to explain this to ds, that many people didn't go to a Bible college for 4-6 years, don't have lots of training, so they just memorize and spit back exactly what they memorized. And then he's sitting there like whoa you hit me with a metaphor cannon ball and I have NO CLUE what you meant. 

So it could be another way to think through it, like is the goal to create a parallel universe in the church or is the goal intervention to fill the gaps so they're ready to go into a mainstream environment? Both can be completely valid but I'm just thinking it through in my own mind.

Teaching language, symbolism, and metaphor in the Bible would actually be a great class for youth in general.  A lot of our youth didn't grow up in the church and don't recognize the allusions.  They don't do a lot of complex literature in school so thinking in metaphor isn't common.  You might suggest that as a study that they could do for everybody at some point.  I led Sunday night middle school youth last spring for a semester and found that I had to start each lesson with 'We'll look at a verse from Matthew, which is in the New Testament.  That means it's during Jesus' life or afterwards'.  

One other thing that was interesting is that different groups have really different personalities.  My kid has visited other groups with friends and the vibe is really different.  At our church, in the context of the kids coming from nearby schools, we've done a lot about how to treat each other.  One girl actually said 'We are mean to each other.  I don't know why'.  So, in that sense, they aren't picking on anybody, but they are often not nice at that school.  Our church is working to change that, but it's going to be a challenge in the meantime.  

[TechWife]

18 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

… I really don't see how a child is going to be needing to call a parent in the middle of a class type situation and having their phone in the room but not in their hand will make them unsafe and vulnerable to predators. If a teacher were to ask a questoin that seemed like grooming they could call their parents when the class part is over.  And if someone needs 911 the phones are right there. 

…

I don’t know how else to explain this. The groomer tests control and compliance. Can I get this kid to do what I want them to do? Will they give up their phone when I tell them to? Can I make cutting off a method of communication a normal occurrence to this kid? To the family? 

The chances are pretty low that a kid who is vulnerable to grooming is going to recognize grooming behaviors. If they did, they wouldn’t be vulnerable. 

I do want to make sure you understand that I realize the phones are a big distracter and it’s incredibly disrespectful to prefer your phone to the people you’re with. I get that, I really do. 

We had a pedophile at our church who abused some of our youth. One of the reasons he got away with it for a while was because no one knew what grooming looked like. The damage that can be done when one isn’t aware is incalculable. The prison term doesn’t do away with the consequences that reverberate through a lifetime. 

[PeterPan]

20 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

honestly, after reading your description of his issues with number sense, and his level of stress going up if he has to give up his phone (because he uses it for problem solving), I'd be pushing to let him use his phone. And then work with him on proficiency with a print Bible at home, but not worrying about if/when he's ready to do that at church/youth group. For now, just ask for him to use a Bible app on his phone due to significant learning disabilities. And IF he is using his phone inappropriately at other times, have them let you know so you can address it if/when that is an issue. But if he can use it JUST for looking up Bible verses and put it in his pant's pocket or bag otherwise, that should be seen as reasonable to the staff. 

That's a really interesting middle point too, that rather than deciding it could be hey let's let him keep his phone, have him ONLY use it too look up verses, keep his stress low, and I'll work on the print thing. Peer pressure is a big deal and he could, after a couple weeks, want the text version to be like his friend. But choice and getting in the door is a big deal. Keeping stress down is HUGE. He has this thing he does twirling his phone and he would be as happy with it off but twirling it. I asked if he had an alternate and he's like well, a pen knife. We live in the country so carrying a pen knife is NORMAL. However this church is more toward a city and I'm like dude, you go autistic twirling a pen knife and repeatedly opening and shutting it, and they're NOT gonna be cool with that. 🤣 He could understand that, but he still is restricted and how he's used to doing things. 

So this is the envelope I work in, sigh. I get things that work but that doesn't mean they work EVERYWHERE. And he understands, because when we fly/travel he does not take a knife. Then he has tech. Double tech. Triple tech. I asked what else he could twirl (a chess piece, a fidget spinner, small fidgets, etc.) and his brain isn't getting there. 

So yeah, I totally agree no youth group wants a kid twirling a knife and opening and closing it repetitively. Things I don't ask for. 🤣

[ScoutTN]

Youth group doesn’t work for all kids. We have kids, in our church ND and NT, for whom it is just not a fit. We work hard to help them and their families find a niche in some other way. Several do well interacting with just a few adults who understand them instead of any larger group. Often they find a ministry or service. We have high school kids who do music, nursery, greeting, tech, communion prep, office work, make coffee, etc. with a small team of adults. They have relationships and a sense of belonging. 
 

We have several comfortable, quiet rooms where the worship service is on the TV and one can use bluetooth to hear it.

Edited September 15, 2023 by ScoutTN

[ktgrok]

17 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

I'll say that this is likely worse, but isn't just a problem for non-neurotypical kids.  In our particular church, there are times when kids who don't go to the closest middle school struggle to fit in.  My kid has said that 'Girl C' is really awesome and tired of the girl nonsense but worries that if she doesn't hang with her middle school friends when at church then they'll exclude her at school.  Not being confident is common in youth, and it takes a certain personality to not fear being judged and excluded.  My older, who is quirky, tends to get along with an unusual assortment in part because kid could not care less what other people think.  My younger is very welcoming to the shy but wouldn't know what to do with anybody who has unusual behavior - kid would be kind, but would find it disconcerting while older, who is usually seen as 'less social', just takes people as they come and avoids anybody who is obnoxious.  Just a reminder that neurotypical kids have strengths and weakness in their skill set and often find that activities push them out of their comfort zone, too.  

One of the reasons I chose the church I did is that the youth group and sunday school kids come from all over the city - so fewer issues with cliques or kids all knowing each other already. In fact, at an ice breaker activity they had kids say what school they go to and we didn't have more than 2 kids at any given school. Really creates a different dynamic than when there are already formed groups coming in. But I had to kind of seek that out. 

11 minutes ago, TechWife said:

I don’t know how else to explain this. The groomer tests control and compliance. Can I get this kid to do what I want them to do? Will they give up their phone when I tell them to? Can I make cutting off a method of communication a normal occurrence to this kid? To the family? 

The chances are pretty low that a kid who is vulnerable to grooming is going to recognize grooming behaviors. If they did, they wouldn’t be vulnerable. 

I do want to make sure you understand that I realize the phones are a big distracter and it’s incredibly disrespectful to prefer your phone to the people you’re with. I get that, I really do. 

We had a pedophile at our church who abused some of our youth. One of the reasons he got away with it for a while was because no one knew what grooming looked like. The damage that can be done when one isn’t aware is incalculable. The prison term doesn’t do away with the consequences that reverberate through a lifetime. 

Ok, but is it truly more "grooming" to ask kids to put their phones down on a table for the next 60 minutes while we have a discussion? I mean, yes, it is testing control and compliance but so is saying, "put your phone in your pocket please" or "stop chatting with your neighbor". Is one more grooming than the other? 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by ktgrok

[PeterPan]

7 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

Teaching language, symbolism, and metaphor in the Bible would actually be a great class for youth in general.  A lot of our youth didn't grow up in the church and don't recognize the allusions.  They don't do a lot of complex literature in school so thinking in metaphor isn't common.  You might suggest that as a study that they could do for everybody at some point.  I led Sunday night middle school youth last spring for a semester and found that I had to start each lesson with 'We'll look at a verse from Matthew, which is in the New Testament.  That means it's during Jesus' life or afterwards'.  

Yes, that's literally how I have to work with my ds. And it's not just from neglect. I own the entire Betty Lukens flannelgraph set of the Bible and when he was young I tried to do the stories with him. I could do the same story five days in a row and he STILL didn't know the story. The narrative language issues were just that deep. The language issues overall are deep. We're doing idioms as part of our spelling, and yesterday the idiom they spelled was about a "bee in your bonnet." He's like NOBODY would know that!!! 🤣

I struggled for years with what version I could read him that he would understand. Up until a year ago I was reading him the NIrV. I'm trying him on the NLT, but I'm not sure how much he understands. The church uses ESV. You see this progression, sigh. 

It's why I get very angry when church staff imply they know, because they don't. One was like oh, read him the book of John! Well that's standard advice, but it's all narrative, meaning he's lost the whole time. Now 3-4 years after I received that "advice" I am trying to read him Luke. It's really hard going. Really hard. And frankly, I think he's sick of me reading to him, which is why I was TRYING to get him a method that was independent, so I could just say hey go read your next chapter and he could. 

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

Youth group doesn’t work for all kids. We have kids, ND and NT, for whom it is just not a fit. We work hard to help them and their families find a niche in some other way. Several do well interacting with just a few adults who understand them instead of any larger group. Often they find a ministry or service. We have high school kids who do music, nursery, greeting, tech, communion prep, office work, make coffee, etc. with a small team of adults. They have relationships and a sense of belonging. 
 

We have several comfortable, quiet rooms where the worship service is on the TV and one can use bluetooth to hear it.

I love this. And I love that it goes back to choice, which means I can say hey if this doesn't work, what about ...

[ktgrok]

If it doesn't work, perhaps they have a zoom bible study for adults? Ours has one in person Bible study and one that is zoom. 

[PeterPan]

13 minutes ago, TechWife said:

The groomer tests control and compliance

BINGO. And no one wants to think their approach is not evidence based or is not best practice. They don't want to think it will happen in their church.

Compliance is the complete opposite thought process of self advocacy, and for people with disabilities a compliance based approach leads to trauma, harm, self doubt, and a spiraling conclusion that they SHOULD NOT speak up. The history on this is VERY clear and the therapy modalities are moving AWAY from compliance and toward self advocacy. 

If you have a NT teen, I assume they accept/understand how compliance works and they make all the inferences and catch the drift and develop their self advocacy as well. Think though about the people you meet in churches who feel GUILTY about things that should not be scared or guilty about. There are consequences to have a heavy compliance based approach.

I need to google what is best practice. For things like whether workers can text the teens, etc. etc. all this has best practices, things lawyers and insurance companies say yes this is best practice. So to me, I put some stock in that because it's an outside party having assessed liability and risk and say this is what the evidence warrants. 

[PeterPan]

8 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

 

Ok, but is it truly more "grooming" to ask kids to put their phones down on a table for the next 60 minutes while we have a discussion? I mean, yes, it is testing control and compliance but so is saying, "put your phone in your pocket please" or "stop chatting with your neighbor". Is one more grooming than the other? 

 

Here's an insurance company. 

https://www.brotherhoodmutual.com/legalassist/legal-q-a/technology-and-media/q-how-can-our-ministry-reduce-liability-associated-with-youth-texting-sexting-activity/

• The policy should also outline when young people can and cannot use their cell phones. It’s recommended that the policy state that, generally, cell phone use is not allowed in any form during official church youth functions.

[PeterPan]

So clearly, in posting that insurance link, it's not saying what I *want* but it's saying what the liability and stats say is *best practice*.

And it's kind of open a little bit, because it does say "generally". But it does say no cell phone use during formal youth group activities is best practice.

So if that is what the data says and what the insurance says (which to me is a BIG deal, a vital piece to consider), then that means that if he wants even to advocate for ebibles it needs to be on another device, not a cell phone. 

[Clemsondana]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

So clearly, in posting that insurance link, it's not saying what I *want* but it's saying what the liability and stats say is *best practice*.

And it's kind of open a little bit, because it does say "generally". But it does say no cell phone use during formal youth group activities is best practice.

So if that is what the data says and what the insurance says (which to me is a BIG deal, a vital piece to consider), then that means that if he wants even to advocate for ebibles it needs to be on another device, not a cell phone. 

I think cell phones as an accommodation are different, and if that's what he needs then it's worth trying to figure it out.  If something else will work, then I'd go that route but if not then the phones would be OK at many churches.  There are so many potential issues with groups and phones.  Kids recording and posting what others think they are saying in confidence.  We had a social event and kids were making tik toks dancing.  That's fine if their parents are OK with it (these kids post them all the time). But other parents or teens may not want to be in the video.  In this situation the kids were good about it only being their little group of 3, but if an adult hadn't been there they might not have been as careful.  At one point they were making pics in the mirror in the bathroom and we had to tell them no phones in the bathroom because no phones where we can't see what is being recorded. 

Most of our phone management comes from dealing with distractions, but when I think about things I've had to work with after I started volunteering with the youth a year ago, there are a lot of different scenarios to think about.  A lot of parents have very strong reactions around their kids not having their phone on their person at all times, but I'm not sure that they've been in the position of having the responsibility to make sure that nobody is recording unsuspecting other kids in the bathroom.  I love teens, but they do dumb and impulsive stuff that they can't see the consequences for.  Again, in our church an accommodation would definitely be made for an autistic or dyslexic kid who needs a phone to do things, but this isn't just an 'adults being mean' situation when the starting assumption is 'no phones'.  

[PeterPan]

So I'm going to research it more and see if other sources are saying that. If no cell phones during official youth group functions is best practice, then we really need to be in line with that. 

Wow, guess I didn't want to read about liability, lol. This insurance booklet has all kinds of horror stories of youth groups that screwed up and resulted in kids getting hurt. https://www.churchmutual.com/media/safetyResources/files/Youth_Safety.pdf

And some older data from 2010 saying what we all suspect, that people like having their phones, like having the kids reachable, that kids like having that ability to reach out if having an issue, but that they also need/want time away to focus.

https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2010/04/20/chapter-three-attitudes-towards-cell-phones/

[PeterPan]

9 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

I'm not sure that they've been in the position of having the responsibility to make sure that nobody is recording unsuspecting other kids in the bathroom. 

Bingo. If an insurance company is saying there's liability there, I would not want to cross that. 

Well it has been interesting information gathering. I'm going to work on the print thing and see how I can bring sensory and ease of use to an NLT. I *liked* the stretch to his thought process that came with talking with other people about spiritual things. I think it's a good stretch if we can make it work and I think he knows it. I also have some tools I didn't tell him, because I could give him *part* of his medication dose before we go. The group activity is in the evening and frankly the activity goes long enough that it is close to the time when he normally takes his next dose of his meds. So if I give him part of the dose before we go, he's going to be a happy cucumber and a lot more zen than if it's wearing off. With the half life of the med it is not out of his system and he is not unsafe as it wears off. It's just he's not going to have as high levels to deal with the highest demands. If the demands are high, he needs to feel his best.

And you can say hey why didn't you mention that at the beginning, haha, but I don't think it's the whole story. I'm not going to pawn this off as give your kid an extremely strong med so he can participate. ALL the factors have to be considered. If someone has to take MORE meds to participate, then it's probably not the way to go. It's something we've been working out philosophically, how do you decide when you're good and when something is so valuable you take more of a med to tolerate it. I don't mind taking a small portion earlier on that day to smooth it out. It's a very high demand setting and it's a predictable issue. I'm going to bring EVERY tool to get him to his best self. He actually wants to be there, sigh. He literally says he wants to go again, which BLOWS MY MIND because I'm like dude, I'd rather go crash on the couch, this is too exhausting and not worth the drama.

Edited September 15, 2023 by PeterPan

[kbutton]

36 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

This makes me smile on so many levels. What I WISH the church was doing and what I WISH I had the energy to make happen myself? A disability appropriate Bible study. One where they don't put people on the spot. One where they don't use any figurative language. One where they use a language level for the text that is not a barrier. One 

I wish we had enough maturity in the church that kids extended themselves out to others and became buddies.

The first paragraph would almost certainly require a speech therapist if we’re talking anything past young kid Sunday School. The whole Bible has tons of figurative language. I do agree that it sounds lovely!

The second—it’s hard for an experienced adult to do this at times. It takes a lot of skill to joyfully navigate this. It often means that whatever experience you were there for (from Bible study at church to a field trip to a museum), it’s now about being a buddy, not having the experience. From my experience, it also means that you are asking the kid who is trying to be a buddy to effectively not be with their friends in the same class because the person who needs it is able to relate 1:1 only and not 1:2 or more.

It’s rare to find someone outside of a parent or close relative that can and wants to do this every time the event takes place. If it’s something like Sunday School, and a worker does well with a particular kid, unless they’ve planned for that worker to be 1:1, now the other workers are stressed.

Then you have to get the parents on board—no two SN parents have the same goals for why they take their kids to church, even if those two parents are married to each other and not parents of different children. One parent wants socialization, another wants their kid to actually connect with the Bible, another has zero church experience and brings the kid to get their spiritual questions answered (and has no idea that’s not how church is set up), and many are in denial or insist that their kid’s toy is a tool when it’s demonstrably not.

That’s my experience from being a volunteer in one church while simultaneously having SN kids. I could see issues, leadership could see issues, but parents were not cooperative. And parents were not necessarily non-NT themselves, so that wasn’t the issue. One parent wanted the village to help raise the SN kids she adopted, but she wouldn’t really give anyone anything to go on or recognize how that tied people’s hands. Two of her three kids (all the same age, so same class), could either go along with the group and not understand anything and not be engaged, or they could engage with exactly on person. But since they were there for socialization, that didn’t suit mom. They quite seriously needed Montessori Sunday School. They’d have eaten it up.

Our church could not get anything off the ground for disabilities because talking to the parents was like herding cats. 

27 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

So it could be another way to think through it, like is the goal to create a parallel universe in the church or is the goal intervention to fill the gaps so they're ready to go into a mainstream environment? Both can be completely valid but I'm just thinking it through in my own mind.

I attended some well-presented church talks on disability ministry. It’s almost like you have to pick a philosophy (and as you said either one is valid), and then recruit people to show up. Or, if you have just a few kids, you can build it around those needs, but only if the parents are up front, honest, and willing to come up with common goals and strategies.

21 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

That would have been smart advice. 🤣So I agree, transition time could be very wise, and I agree NT people could be completely oblivious on that need. Do you do advocacy to make that happen for your peeps or do they do it for themselves or they just get to where they don't need it? 

It's definitely something I'm trying to take a deep breath and think through because I suspected that HIGH time was so high that it was really hard to calm down from. I'm just not sure what I do with it. If they take water breaks and walk it off, that would be enough. I can ask. Drinking water is very regulating because of the muscles it engages. It slows down your breathing because you breathe through your nose. You have to walk to get the water bottle, so you're walking away and transitioning. 

I need some more thought process on how this is supposed to look. I have zero experience with nutso high school activities. I was a pretty serious high schooler. 🤣

I bumbled my way through, but we have different issues. I advocated for other kids only to have parents not be realistic.

My kids were very motivated spiritually when younger, so it worked out. DH, who has high tolerance for chaotic stupid stuff became a youth leader. Then Covid hit. Now we’re at a church with no youth group, so my second is high and dry. My older one graduated and attends a young adult group and a men’s group at a mega church that doesn’t care that tons of people come there from other churches. He passes for NT most of the time now (partly because he is now mixing with multiple ages, not just youth), and I don’t mean he masks. He has always been self-aware though; it just took time to tamp down the ADHD and some language work to get to where his language issues weren’t making him disengage and be more at the mercy of his ADHD.

Still, during Covid, he was not invited to any graduation parties for any friends even after being at that church for about a decade. So…? He is very happy and very included in his new space, and we’re all happy we’re no longer in the old church. 

8 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Yes, that's literally how I have to work with my ds. And it's not just from neglect. I own the entire Betty Lukens flannelgraph set of the Bible and when he was young I tried to do the stories with him. I could do the same story five days in a row and he STILL didn't know the story. The narrative language issues were just that deep. The language issues overall are deep. We're doing idioms as part of our spelling, and yesterday the idiom they spelled was about a "bee in your bonnet." He's like NOBODY would know that!!! 🤣I struggled for years with what version I could read him that he would understand. Up until a year ago I was reading him the NIrV. I'm trying him on the NLT, but I'm not sure how much he understands. The church uses ESV. You see this progression, sigh. 

I’m trying to trim quotes to respond, but my phone is giving me trouble.

Just empathizing with the ESV issue. I don’t even like it as an adult. I feel like people who like to sound extra pretty when they talk decided to translate the Bible and that if someone finds it obscures the text, it’s because they just don’t get the “art,” lol! No advice on alternatives. I like my NASB, but that’s probably not still great for people with language issues.

[PeterPan]

16 minutes ago, kbutton said:

no two SN parents have the same goals for why they take their kids to church, even if those two parents are married to each other and not parents of different children. One parent wants socialization, another wants their kid to actually connect with the Bible, another has zero church experience and brings the kid to get their spiritual questions answered (and has no idea that’s not how church is set up), and many are in denial or insist that their kid’s toy is a tool when it’s demonstrably not.

This is very insightful.

And yeah, that's why I'm not hot fast calling them. I needed to calm down, think, let the dust settle, and think through what I saw. I don't want to undercut an opportunity for growth but I don't want to aggravate him and have it bomb after tons of stress either. 

The goals thing is so spot on and probably explains a lot. The other parents who over the years have brought someone with autism might have had different GOALS. We could even try to put into words what our GOALS are and communicate that to them. 

And yeah, SN ministries are burnout. I visited some churches trying to do it and it's a lot.

18 minutes ago, kbutton said:

could either go along with the group and not understand anything and not be engaged, or they could engage with exactly on person.

That's an interesting way to tease it apart. I could talk with ds about what he's looking for. He has done *so* much with our other work on social experiences that he has a sense of where he's at. To me he's mid-process and I'm not sure, based on what he was saying, that he totally understands how to go from a small group, 1:4 kind of setting to a larger group. That's the opportunity for growth thing.

I'm not sure I'm saying I have him there for social. I am constantly putting him in a variety of social experiences and stretching him. We might be doing it in nontraditional ways, but we're already hitting social a LOT. What I want is a successful experience where he gets to see how someone else thinks. He wants to go play the games, haha. In that sense, if he'd go to Sunday School and go straight home, that would probably accomplish our goals better. He just isn't there yet in his mind. 

22 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I advocated for other kids only to have parents not be realistic.

What is the most common way parents tend not to be realistic?

23 minutes ago, kbutton said:

My older one graduated and attends a young adult group and a men’s group at a mega church that doesn’t care that tons of people come there from other churches. He passes for NT most of the time now (partly because he is now mixing with multiple ages, not just youth), and I don’t mean he masks. He has always been self-aware though; it just took time to tamp down the ADHD and some language work to get to where his language issues weren’t making him disengage and be more at the mercy of his ADHD.

Still, during Covid, he was not invited to any graduation parties for any friends even after being at that church for about a decade. So…? He is very happy and very included in his new space, and we’re all happy we’re no longer in the old church. 

I hope you don't mind me pulling this down. I need to smack my head a bit and ponder this. So what works long term for someone who is different is when they can pick their environment and not have the hoops kids are subjected to. I love that he has found a place he fits in, and maybe that's what I think through is what this looks like LONG TERM and where they have a young adult group where he'd fit in. 

And then the smack head part, because it's just the truth. If you are different and aren't accepted, you're still outsider, no matter how much you go. I had a point in my life where I realized some people view me as a ministry (walk up and say something to be nice) and some people view me as a friend. That's a rabbit trail, but I'm just saying it's real. And I love that he's doing so well and knows where he wants to be and what he believes and who he wants to hang with. It's stellar. 

27 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Just empathizing with the ESV issue. I don’t even like it as an adult. I feel like people who like to sound extra pretty when they talk decided to translate the Bible and that if someone finds it obscures the text, it’s because they just don’t get the “art,” lol! No advice on alternatives. I like my NASB, but that’s probably not still great for people with language issues.

Thank you!!! I'm so pissy about Piper and the snoot level on that. It's interesting to hear that it doesn't even suit some NT people. I tried to read the ESV and just couldn't stomach it. I used to read the NASB and now read the NLT with glee. Best. Thing. Ever. Plain english, not too picky, easy to understand. I find myself constantly having these WOW IS THAT WHAT IT MEANT?!?! kind of moments. But if I want more precision, yeah NASB is where it's at. It just seems the ESV is that whole Piper/reformed fad and I'm so not a mouse looking to follow a piper.

 

[PeterPan]

33 minutes ago, kbutton said:

s a young adult group and a men’s group at a mega church

I'm going to need to ponder this. I really appreciate the long response. 

I think he's rational enough to understand we might do some things now and some things later. Main thing is not to botch is so much that he concludes he doesn't want to be in the church EVER.

33 minutes ago, kbutton said:

The first paragraph would almost certainly require a speech therapist if we’re talking anything past young kid Sunday School.

He's still doing 4-6 speech therapy sessions a week to work on language, so I can't put anything more on them. We have the eternal how to do everything the hard way. 🤣 I've actually been talking with him about a 5 year plan and how this winds down. We're at that point where you start prioritizing and saying this is what is left, what is most important, sigh.

Edited September 15, 2023 by PeterPan

[kbutton]

28 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

What is the most common way parents tend not to be realistic?

Denial about the issue at all (often about getting a diagnosis or the findings of the diagnosis—“we don’t really think it’s a big deal, he’ll grow out of it.”). Denial about the environment at church.

And some discourtesy—if you’re late (in some churches everyone is), and you’re dropping off a high needs kid, SAY something rather than discreetly pushing your kid through the door, hoping to not be noticed. If the kid needs support, that leaves teachers counting heads every two minutes with a sinking feeling in their stomach, lol!

 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

DS views everything through the lens of narrative, so that helped with the Bible. I’ve always had to explain idioms, which he thinks are stupid anyway.  But we are at Universal Florida Harry Potter land right now and he came up with Harry Potter as a Christ figure on his own.

The church has really reached out to DS, even offering their amazing media system for him to play video games with two other non-NT boys and two neurotypical boys,  and the youth pastor and youth pastor’s wife some Saturday afternoons. They thought perhaps a small group doing a preferred activity would allow the boys to make friendships and connections with each other. It has worked. But there’s also no Bible study or prayer during this, just fun.  For DS it has kind of made him view church as not a totally awful place.

But still, I usually bribe him with getting to skip a shower for the weekend if he will at least change his clothes, put on deodorant and go to church.

[kbutton]

34 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

 

I think he's rational enough to understand we might do some things now and some things later. Main thing is not to botch is so much that he concludes he doesn't want to be in the church EVER.

Yes! 

38 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

So what works long term for someone who is different is when they can pick their environment and not have the hoops kids are subjected to. I love that he has found a place he fits in, and maybe that's what I think through is what this looks like LONG TERM and where they have a young adult group where he'd fit in. 

I think this is one path. Being able to be treated as an adult makes a big difference. 

We stumbled into it and a friend with some non-NT kids suggested it to him. It’s not necessarily less over-stimulating than youth group, but it’s better thought out, and people have to want to be there. It’s all mixed—young married, young working, and young college all together. There are some things that could be overstimulating but aren’t—they had a dressed up dance party, but it was a “silent” dance party where you listen to the music on your own headset and control the volume.

[kbutton]

48 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

What I want is a successful experience where he gets to see how someone else thinks. He wants to go play the games, haha. In that sense, if he'd go to Sunday School and go straight home, that would probably accomplish our goals better. He just isn't there yet in his mind. 

At the place I am in life, I would be okay with that if we’re a youth leader (ain’t happening!), but most would not be, which is too bad. But I understand why when there are surely kids there being forced to go.

[kbutton]

I suspect we both live in areas where there is always another church down the road too, and so many churches do not have to figure things out, and many families won’t stay to work things out.

It’s similar to when there are lots of grocery stores—you’d think that the competition would mean you could get specialty items. No, it means that they offer TONS of great ordinary stuff—all the chips, all the pop, etc., and it’s on you to find a store that caters to you. If I go to a smaller area, such as where my parents’ live, I can find gluten free products I can’t find in our big stores because they are the only store around, but you might have only the top local sellers for pop or chips. It’s odd that way.

I think churches here are like that too. Where I am from, churches are more likely to work with what they’ve got coming in the door.

[Clemsondana]

I think that disability ministry can be challenging because it is so labor-intensive, and in many cases requires almost a 1:1 volunteer/participant ratio.  At one church, we had a former preschool teacher who was a buddy for kids with special needs.  She would check with parents and come to be a buddy at any event that the kid was at, and as kids moved on from needing her she would start with new ones.  She had a real passion for what she did and was amazing with the kids, but not everybody knows how to do that, just like not everybody knows how to get a group of 4 year olds to sit in a circle and listen to a story, or play the violin during the service.  We can't just conjure up more of these people any more than we can summon more musicians if there's a need.  We have also seen times when enough adults are being pulled from their classes to help in other places that it causes there to not be enough to have a good crowd for adult classes, which are also important.

Right now, our church uses a few youth to help with the elementary classes.  On one hand, I love that the kids are volunteering.  On the other, they aren't always getting the learning opportunities that they need to grow.  That's also a concern if a youth is a buddy for another youth if they do it all the time instead of at a subset of activities.  As somebody who spent my first 2 years of elementary school sitting next to troubled or special needs kids to keep them on track...kids put in that situation learn adult skills at a young age but don't get to experience the activity as other kids do.  

But, there are things that improve with age.  The youth that I described who mostly draws during lessons was a real challenge last year as a 5th grader in children's programming.  Elementary kids struggled with the idea of other kids 'getting to draw' while they were supposed to be doing something else.  Youth Sunday school is sitting in a discussion, not doing a series of activities, and the kids are mature enough to understand what is going on so one kid drawing is a non-issue.  Likewise, a non-knife fidget that was unobtrusive would probably be fine and not distracting for teens.  There have also been times that older teens have moved to adult classes, especially if there is a young adult class, because it's a better fit.

There are also likely to always be activities that are a challenge for somebody.  When I worked with middle school, we started every lesson with a 'Bible verse unscramble' where the words were written on cards and the kids tried to unscramble into a verse, and then we'd look it up and see who got the closest.  I had planned it as a one-off, but it turned out to be popular so we did it every week, boys vs girls (their choice), and the winning team got tootsie rolls.  Any kid could just move to the side of the room with their team and watch so not sitting on the floor unscrambling wouldn't be a problem, or even noticed, and sometimes a kid chose to do that and it was fine.  It sounds like this sort of activity would be hard for your kid, so it might be helpful to coach your kid if you can see what the group does each week and also tell the leader so that they could direct your student into something that wasn't a problem - just a 'Sit here and cheer them on' role, or being the one to fetch the Bibles that were handed to each team after they thought they had it unscrambled, for instance, would let them participate while not forcing them into the activity.  It's the kind of thing that easily becomes a routine - kids divide to do the puzzle, your kid goes to fetch the Bibles off the shelf, and everybody is participating - if the person in charge knows that it would be a good solution.  

Our church has a very large recover ministry so does a lot of outreach through that.  It's brought a lot of people into our church, and also an influx of kids who have a lot of needs.  At one set of activities, we have a child who runs and hides so they have to have 1:1 supervision.  The parent is supposed to help, but doesn't, so they periodically have to lock down the church and post people at doors until the kid is found.  I'm not involved in that particular ministry/activity, but apparently it's only another year or 2 before they move to youth so we'll see how that goes.  

[catz]

3 hours ago, TechWife said:

 

We had a pedophile at our church who abused some of our youth. One of the reasons he got away with it for a while was because no one knew what grooming looked like. The damage that can be done when one isn’t aware is incalculable. The prison term doesn’t do away with the consequences that reverberate through a lifetime. 

We have a church a lot like ktrok's.  Our church has a coming of age program and an OWL program.  They do use a basket to set phones in as youth come in the room.  We are urban-ish so I think security is taken very seriously.  There is hired security on site much of the time of services or events and security cameras around property that are monitored by the front desk. 

• Our youth class leaders are always at least 2-3 adult leaders deep and unrelated
• Our youth class leaders are background checked annually
• All classrooms have windows in the doors.
• All classrooms are in a secure area with an adult monitor.  Kids under age 13 need to be checked in/out by a listed parent.  Older kids can have parents sign off on self release, but if not, will also require a sign in/sign out.
• Parents have to go through orientation before registering and are reminded on safe group participation policies
• Teachers go through training are are also trained on safe leading
• Classes are cancelled if only a single leader can make it.  This is rare, they try to keep a bench of trained subs at the ready.  
• Like Katie mentioned, confidentiality and privacy is a HUGE thing in OWL classes.  There is ZERO tolerance for recording or sharing outside the room and a tone is set out of the gate for how communication and respect runs in those classes.

I was extremely comfortable with this set up.  Phones when put in the basket were always within view and exceptions were regularly made during breaks (I need to check and see if mom texted me about my pick up spot).  

All that said, the direction of RE was always happy to work to accomodate ND/LD/anxious, etc students to be inclusive.  My kids definitely had neuro diverse students that held on to assistive tech during various  classes and I also had kids like that both teaching at a homeschool co-op and leading youth classes at church.  

Having been on the leadership side of this, I think there are a few things to keep in mind

• Even a paid RE director may not have much training with ND students.  
• People in the classroom are often parent volunteers who are generally have good intentions but are working with the kids in front of them and also may have no experience with ND students
• Accomodations were always made when a parent approached with an unusual need.  That doesn't mean that it always worked out or that a class was always a good fit.  Sometimes a kid would try and class for 4-6 weeks and a teen would decide not to return.  
• I do think having kids that tend quirky and a bit socially anxious, working with a really diverse both church and inclusive homeschool community, that I think a lot of people think very black and white about kids.   The kids that had the hardest time were kids I suspect were ND but didn't have a diagnosis and didn't ever have a parent approach me.  Or would jump to the defensive if approached with an issue.  I wouldn't assume every kid in that class is mature and NT.
  
  Even in groups of adults, people tend to the easy and the comfortable.  Approaching the person they know best in the crowd.  Especially tweens and teens are in a brain drain, unempethetic stew of hormones, it is perfectly age appropriate that they aren't naturally inclusive or mature at this point.  Anyway, I think going into a group understanding that there are going to be a range of abilities and maturity levels in the room that are less than perfection can also help set expectations that teens are going to teen.  There's a reason they aren't called adults until later.  And I could argue adults about how those neurons are still fusing as a parent of young adults.  That doesn't mean leadership shouldn't be using techniques to break cliques, be inclusive, or tolerate unkind behavior.  But in general in group classes, expecting perfection isn't necessarily productive.  For my own kids, learning to participate in a group setting was it's own lesson and led to a lot of discussions.
  
  There were kids in classes that somtimes had a 1-1 adult aid in church classes.  That often worked great.

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by catz

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

The church has really reached out to DS, even offering their amazing media system for him to play video games with two other non-NT boys and two neurotypical boys,  and the youth pastor and youth pastor’s wife some Saturday afternoons. They thought perhaps a small group doing a preferred activity would allow the boys to make friendships and connections with each other. It has worked. But there’s also no Bible study or prayer during this, just fun.  For DS it has kind of made him view church as not a totally awful place.

Brilliant!!

3 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

But still, I usually bribe him with getting to skip a shower for the weekend if he will at least change his clothes, put on deodorant and go to church.

🤣🤣🤣

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, kbutton said:

and people have to want to be there.

That is such an important point. Before 18 they are all in kids are bad, force kids to do things, blah blah mode. Then the person has choice and they realize they can't be control freaks or the people won't willingly be there. Well maybe if there are drugs or it's some kind of brainwashing thing, haha, but just in general. And that really STINKS, yes? Don't think till you're 18. The message is clear. 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

if you can see what the group does each week

You're right I'm probably going to have to stay on top of it and find out what curve balls they're throwing so we can be prepared. As with other things, I naively thought he could go in and just do well, sigh. Some things are worth some effort to make it work so we'll see.

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, kbutton said:

always another church down the road too,

Yeah I think this one has so many people coming through the door so quickly that on an individual level it's hard to get what you need. Only the norm is easy to service.

I don't know if we have another choice. I've already tried other places (in the past, more generally, not for youth group), so I really don't know.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, catz said:

  I wouldn't assume every kid in that class is mature and NT.

Even in groups of adults, people tend to the easy and the comfortable.  Approaching the person they know best in the crowd.  Especially tweens and teens are in a brain drain, unempethetic stew of hormones, it is perfectly age appropriate that they aren't naturally inclusive or mature at this point.  Anyway, I think going into a group understanding that there are going to be a range of abilities and maturity levels in the room that are less than perfection can also help set expectations that teens are going to teen.  There's a reason they aren't called adults until later. 

Thank you, that explanation is helpful and correct.

2 hours ago, catz said:

  For my own kids, learning to participate in a group setting was it's own lesson and led to a lot of discussions.

Yup, and I know I need to pull back and look for that and not be afraid of it.

2 hours ago, catz said:

There were kids in classes that somtimes had a 1-1 adult aid in church classes.  That often worked great.

We did that when he was younger. When we lost the ABA worker we were using, we couldn't get another person to do it. I almost had him in church again successfully till they changed the room location without warning. Ugh. That led to stress and these years of not in church. So here we are trying again and I swear I feel like one of those trucks skidding downhill about to slam into a concrete wall. It just feels like you can't make it stop and make it better. 

Well I'm working on some things and am going to talk it through with him. I have more information now to know where they're coming from and the issues they're working with for liability, etc. It's going to take some collaboration to see what can work, and I know we have some social thinking issues to work through to help him do better in the dynamic.

[kbutton]

33 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

That is such an important point. Before 18 they are all in kids are bad, force kids to do things, blah blah mode. Then the person has choice and they realize they can't be control freaks or the people won't willingly be there. Well maybe if there are drugs or it's some kind of brainwashing thing, haha, but just in general. And that really STINKS, yes? Don't think till you're 18. The message is clear. 

I think the liability of caring for someone else’s kid drives some fear.

[kbutton]

25 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I swear I feel like one of those trucks skidding downhill about to slam into a concrete wall. It just feels like you can't make it stop and make it better. 

I’m feeling this way about the kinds of language my younger one needs to successfully follow directions and locate what he needs. It’s crazy (thread on accommodations). These specific issues were previously masked by his APD (not all language stuff, just things like directions). 

[Clemsondana]

21 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

That is such an important point. Before 18 they are all in kids are bad, force kids to do things, blah blah mode. Then the person has choice and they realize they can't be control freaks or the people won't willingly be there. Well maybe if there are drugs or it's some kind of brainwashing thing, haha, but just in general. And that really STINKS, yes? Don't think till you're 18. The message is clear. 

I'm not sure it's 'kids are bad' as much as 'the adults are responsible for their behavior.  If an adult gropes another adult, or shows them porn, or records somebody's tearful prayer request and posts it to social media, the person who will be blamed (and prosecuted if appropriate for the act) is the adult who did the bad thing.  If a kid does something like that, the people who are blamed and liable are the adults who were supervising.  Most of our kids are great and the worst that they would ever do is gossip (which isn't good, but isn't unusual).  But, we have kids that we don't know.  We have a few kids who have been in police-involved situations.  We have 2-deep unrelated people covering every event to protect the adults from accusations by the kids, since we know that it in the range of possibilities for at least one of our kids.  Communication is through group text/apps like GroupMe and not private.  I do the same with my teaching and communicate through Canvas.  I only have the numbers to text a handful of teens that aren't my own, and they are kids from families that we have done co-op and science competitions with for years.  I would be willing to get involved in a situation if I thought a kid was at risk in some way, but as 'best practices' we are in the habit of keeping communication with kids in a public-ish forum like slack (for science competition team events that we coach) that parents can see if they look at the kid's account and that we tell parents we will be using.  

[PeterPan]

22 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I think the liability of caring for someone else’s kid drives some fear.

Exceptional point.

17 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I’m feeling this way about the kinds of language my younger one needs to successfully follow directions and locate what he needs. It’s crazy (thread on accommodations). These specific issues were previously masked by his APD (not all language stuff, just things like directions). 

Yup. And I've responded by dropping vision. It's not like I have some great vision anymore than has this WOW outcome. It's more like happy, safe, not in jail, willing to work, willing to leave the house. When he was young, there was this implication that he had "so much potential" and that doing well meant achieving something WOW. And as I near 50, my body gets tired, my soul gets tired, and some things just seem good enough.

I'm about ready to retire from homeschooling. 🤣

[PeterPan]

18 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

I'm not sure it's 'kids are bad' as much as 'the adults are responsible for their behavior. 

That is such a helpful point. 

It sounds like your church is very careful to follow best practices!!!

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

Exceptional point.

Yup. And I've responded by dropping vision. It's not like I have some great vision anymore than has this WOW outcome. It's more like happy, safe, not in jail, willing to work, willing to leave the house. When he was young, there was this implication that he had "so much potential" and that doing well meant achieving something WOW. And as I near 50, my body gets tired, my soul gets tired, and some things just seem good enough.

I'm about ready to retire from homeschooling. 🤣

I assume he’s eligible for things my son is not, and mine needs good insurance to stay alive due to his health issues.

Everyone’s hard has some really spiky points!

[PeterPan]

21 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

responsible

I just wanted to go back to this again, because I think it's something my ds can understand. Y'all have given me a lot of ways to talk with him and angles to see this from. We'll figure something out. 🙂

[ktgrok]

6 hours ago, PeterPan said:

advocate for ebibles 

not sure what it says about my stress level that I keep reading this as "edibles"

[ktgrok]

I will add that our youth program always has a meeting with the parents at the start of each year, where things like this are discussed and agreed to before kids are ever left there without a parent. So at that point a parent could say, "oh...but my kid NEEDS a phone for his bible app, due to learning differences. Could he have his out just when people are looking up/reading passages, and then put it away again?" And I'm sure it would be agreed to. Same with OWL, we have a mandatory parent meeting where everything is gone over, parents bring up concerns, and at the end everything is set in place. 

[teachermom2834]

17 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

not sure what it says about my stress level that I keep reading this as "edibles"

Same! I was like what kind of church is this where all the older folks are in the sanctuary with edibles?