Article in NYT re: Americans losing faith in value of college degree

[Scarlett]

20 minutes ago, Frances said:

We definitely saw that when my husband was in professional grad school. But then again, these students knew they would likely have a big chunk of their debt forgiven because they would be working at non-profit hospitals. It’s one of the reasons I struggle so much with supporting some of the particular loan forgiveness programs. We only borrowed what we absolutely needed, I went to work FT while homeschooling our son, and my husband worked summers (with commuting, school, and studying there was zero time for him to work during the school year). We were fortunate that as a hiring perk his employer paid off the majority of his loans over five years (in exchange for him staying at least another five years) and we immediately paid off the rest. He had classmates who ate lunch out almost every day, bought new cars, went on nice vacations, etc. etc. while borrowing $100-$200k.

That is just obscene. But it is really just the way it is with some people.  They live way beyond their means banking on a pay off of some sort or another.  

[SKL]

1 hour ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

Not all colleges allow you to live off campus and some require a mealplan. My cousin was required to pay for the meal plan, and there was only one option. So again, every situation is different, and it might not be possible to just get somewhere cheap and eat at home. 

I know, and I think that's wrong.  Again, this essentially excludes numerous kids from working class and modest middle class backgrounds.  If you're going to require this, at least make it make economic sense.

[Scarlett]

25 minutes ago, Shoeless said:

How nice for the moneyed class. 

I am not sure how to reconcile your post that hairdressers should have bachelor's degrees if they want them with this post that, clearly, people find a way to pay for all this, and also with your original post about Americans questioning the value of all this. And also the student loan crisis that is unfolding right now in our country. 

Millennials and Gen Z are saying "This debt is unsustainable. We cannot do this". I worked with several veterinarians that had $200k in debt who said 'It isn't worth it. I never see my kids. I would have been happier as a tech but I am stuck".  But older generations are saying "One simply finds a way. It's worth it. Just try hard, economize, cook from scratch, get a roommate, etc".

How? How do young people do this without breaking from either financial stress or mental stress? What realistic path are we offering young people? How does a young person do all this without accruing massive debt? Academic hustle and grind culture in high school, with the hope of a scholarship and admission to a lottery school? 

 

 

Agree.  I don’t see this country getting away from the haves and haves not.  Your best bet is to make the best choices within your reasonable abilities. I encouraged my son to work toward making enough to live a life of dignity instead of making the most money possible. ( Unfortunately I don’t think that part sank in to him….he has the bug to climb the ladder.  His dad preached that too….make the most money possible.  )

It takes a lot as a parent to sift through the propaganda and help your kids make good decisions surrounding education and work choices.  I did not go to college and I was fairly ignorant about it but I did educate myself to help my son.  This board helped a lot with that.  Without my help he would have had zero clue what to do,  even his dad who IS college educated could not have helped.  His suggestion was to go to University of AR which all about unresolved dreams of xh…..not really what was best for our son.  

[Frances]

24 minutes ago, SKL said:

I know, and I think that's wrong.  Again, this essentially excludes numerous kids from working class and modest middle class backgrounds.  If you're going to require this, at least make it make economic sense.

It actually often doesn’t exclude the ones you think it does. Many of the schools that require on campus living with meal plans are LACs with excellent financial aid. For strong students who qualify for financial aid, they are often much better deals financially than say state schools with much lower sticker prices and no requirement to live on campus. The ones who struggle to afford such a place are more often those who just barely don’t qualify for any FA (think lower end of upper middle class) but whose parents can’t pay full freight.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Frances

[SKL]

41 minutes ago, Frances said:

And I’d still like to hear your reasoning behind your view that the working class is being purposed targeted to not be able to have the on campus living experience. Who wants to exclude them from that and why? At every college I’m familiar with it’s exactly the opposite. First generation college students are being actively recruited and provided with special programs, academic and otherwise, for extra support. And often, certain scholarships are open only to them and others who qualify for financial aid.

I know there are some preferences for some number of first generation kids at some universities.  However, I also know that they really are not wanted socially in the university community.  In practice, they are not accommodated.

I was that student.  I brought canned vegetables and stored them in my dorm room, because the overpriced meal plan didn't cover every meal.  That and various other economic hacks that I learned as one of 6 kids whose parents were high school dropouts, and which made me stand out in a not-good way.  Part of what made the school seem affordable was the scholarship, but the scholarship decreased while the tuition increased, and I was seriously broke as well as socially marginalized.  I thought about suicide a lot as I realized how hard (impossible?) it was gonna be to pay off my loans.  Nobody else "got" it.  One of my dorm-mates came back from break whining that all she got for Christmas was a computer (in 1988) and a jet ski.

There were things I really loved about law school, but I could have gotten them at a more affordable school.

[Frances]

10 minutes ago, SKL said:

I know there are some preferences for some number of first generation kids at some universities.  However, I also know that they really are not wanted socially in the university community.  In practice, they are not accommodated.

I was that student.  I brought canned vegetables and stored them in my dorm room, because the overpriced meal plan didn't cover every meal.  That and various other economic hacks that I learned as one of 6 kids whose parents were high school dropouts, and which made me stand out in a not-good way.  Part of what made the school seem affordable was the scholarship, but the scholarship decreased while the tuition increased, and I was seriously broke as well as socially marginalized.  I thought about suicide a lot as I realized how hard (impossible?) it was gonna be to pay off my loans.  Nobody else "got" it.  One of my dorm-mates came back from break whining that all she got for Christmas was a computer (in 1988) and a jet ski.

There were things I really loved about law school, but I could have gotten them at a more affordable school.

I don’t think it’s true that they are wanted socially, more so that it can be hard to fit in socially at a wealthy school if you don’t have enough money because many kids are from quite wealthy backgrounds. If you’re worried about having enough to pay basic expenses and maybe help support your family while classmates are flying to ski vacations in other countries over the holiday break, the lived realities are very different.

I think we would have to ask the actual current students today to see if they feel they are being accommodated in practice, rather than making sweeping generalizations. More and more schools are providing special support of all types for first generation students, adding free food pantries and housing assistance, special advising and peer support, special scholarships, special internship placement, funds to cover things that FA doesn’t, etc., etc.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Frances

[Frances]

57 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

There are plenty of relatively inexpensive schools out there.  Kids do work and go to school, even if it if takes an extra year or so to get through it.  This idea that only $50k a year party schools with water parks and luxury dorms exist is just wrong.  You just have to look.  Plenty of students graduate with only modest, reasonable loans.  

And it’s not just finding an inexpensive school. It’s finding one that is financially a good deal after scholarships and financial aid. Many private schools, especially higher ranked ones, have startling sticker prices. But for strong students who qualify for financial aid, they can often be more affordable than a lower priced state school.

[Ginevra]

26 minutes ago, Shoeless said:

How nice for the moneyed class. 

I am not sure how to reconcile your post that hairdressers should have bachelor's degrees if they want them with this post that, clearly, people find a way to pay for all this, and also with your original post about Americans questioning the value of all this. And also the student loan crisis that is unfolding right now in our country. 

Millennials and Gen Z are saying "This debt is unsustainable. We cannot do this". I worked with several veterinarians that had $200k in debt who said 'It isn't worth it. I never see my kids. I would have been happier as a tech but I am stuck".  But older generations are saying "One simply finds a way. It's worth it. Just try hard, economize, cook from scratch, get a roommate, etc".

How? How do young people do this without breaking from either financial stress or mental stress? What realistic path are we offering young people? How does a young person do all this without accruing massive debt? Academic hustle and grind culture in high school, with the hope of a scholarship and admission to a lottery school? 

 

 

First, I am not saying hairdressers *should* have bachelor’s degrees. I’m saying parents/counselors should not be pushing a kid to hair school because they can’t imagine how paying for college is going to work. And they definitely should not spurn a kid away from college by saying, “Oh, Bella isn’t academically inclined so she’s just going to hair school.” 
 

Second, I don’t think the current cost of college and the whole situation is good. I want it to be much better for far more people than it currently is. However, I personally think it is worth it to strategize a way for our kids to go to college unless they have a different plan that is solid and suitable for that kid. I don’t think kids should be discouraged from going to college simply because parents don’t know how to make that happen and, rather than work on a solution, they just steer them towards something else. My own parents did this! They actively discouraged us (only the girls, mind you, not the son!) from college. 
 

Third, I am aware that not all places in the US have equal options. I live in a state with several good publics that are well subsidized. If we really had to pinch, kids could commute to public in-state because there are three state unis my kids could have realistically commuted to from home. (And I do in fact know lots of people in my state who did it this way.) I know this is not true for large parts of this huge landmass we call the United States. I don’t know what someone who lives in Wyoming does, say. So I can’t speak to that. But where I live, lots of regular, non-rich people have kids going to in state public colleges and that’s how they are sending their kids to college with little or no debt. They pay for college with current income. I am working FT now; this is part of what I expect to pay for during the next three and a half years. 
 

I don’t understand your last paragraph. I don’t know people who are telling their kids to rack up enormous debts at college. Most of my peers are doing something similar to what I’m doing. Some use community college for the gen eds and then transfer in state. Some only seek in state. Some only apply to endowed schools where their kid will get a good subsidy, like some of the Catholic colleges here. Some get jobs that pay a portion of tuition; this is how my niece got her Master’s. 
 

I do think the system must change. But I am not of the thinking that we should spurn college and tell kids lies about how great it is to be a plumber so we can just avoid that whole college expense issue. 

[Corraleno]

14 minutes ago, SKL said:

I know there are some preferences for some number of first generation kids at some universities.  However, I also know that they really are not wanted socially in the university community.  In practice, they are not accommodated.

I was that student.  I brought canned vegetables and stored them in my dorm room, because the overpriced meal plan didn't cover every meal.  That and various other economic hacks that I learned as one of 6 kids whose parents were high school dropouts, and which made me stand out in a not-good way.  Part of what made the school seem affordable was the scholarship, but the scholarship decreased while the tuition increased, and I was seriously broke as well as socially marginalized.  I thought about suicide a lot as I realized how hard (impossible?) it was gonna be to pay off my loans.  Nobody else "got" it.  One of my dorm-mates came back from break whining that all she got for Christmas was a computer (in 1988) and a jet ski.

There were things I really loved about law school, but I could have gotten them at a more affordable school.

Your personal experience at one school many years ago is really not universally applicable. At Ohio State, for example, they have a program that covers full tuition and fees (with grants, not loans) for all Pell recipients, and they have lots of different programs specifically targeted at first-gen and low income students to help them adjust to college life and successfully complete their degrees, including mentoring, free academic coaching and tutoring, and a program that brings them on campus before school starts to help them get oriented and learn where and how to get help when needed. My impression of the students there is that the vast majority are welcoming and inclusive and the polar opposite of snooty and elitist.

It's really hard to reconcile the conflicting claims that universities are all bastions of socialism indoctrinating naive kids with Marxist ideology while also claiming that they are elitist ivory towers purposely screwing over the working class.

[Heartstrings]

13 minutes ago, Frances said:

And it’s not just finding an inexpensive school. It’s finding one that is financially a good deal after scholarships and financial aid. Many private schools, especially higher ranked ones, have startling sticker prices. But for strong students who qualify for financial aid, they can often be more affordable than a lower priced state school.

I definitely think casting a wide and varied net during the application process is important.  You never know what a college might offer until you apply.  It's important to really sit with the numbers and be really honest and realistic before making a decision.  

A lot of times small satellite campuses are a good value that not many people look at.  The school my kid goes to is a small satellite campus of a big name school, for a bit more than half of the price.  If we didn't live here I wouldn't have even known in existed though.  I know UVA has a small campus in an out of the way location that is much cheaper than UVA in CVille.  

Edited September 10, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Scarlett]

15 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

First, I am not saying hairdressers *should* have bachelor’s degrees. I’m saying parents/counselors should not be pushing a kid to hair school because they can’t imagine how paying for college is going to work.

Personally I think not having the  the money to pay for college is a pretty good reason to go another route.  
 

But I guess it also depends upon the goals and values of everyone involved..  

[SKL]

12 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

It's really hard to reconcile the conflicting claims that universities are all bastions of socialism indoctrinating naive kids with Marxist ideology while also claiming that they are elitist ivory towers purposely screwing over the working class.

The elite ivory towers are definitely where leftist ideologies flourish.  It's also easier to convince people who've never been hungry that the working class needs/wants xyz BS.

[Ginevra]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Personally I think not having the  the money to pay for college is a pretty good reason to go another route.  
 

But I guess it also depends upon the goals and values of everyone involved..  

I’ve seen (and directly experienced) too many people giving up before they asked a single question or looked at a single website. This is what I am opposed to. My own parents thought of college as something rich people provide for their kids - oops, I mean, their sons - and AFAIK, never even glanced at a college brochure until my brother turned 18. In reality, we probably could have gone on Pell grants at minimum but it was never even discussed. Girls didn’t need to go to college; pretty girls needed it even less because they could get married and not have to worry about career. 

[SKL]

24 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I do think the system must change. But I am not of the thinking that we should spurn college and tell kids lies about how great it is to be a plumber so we can just avoid that whole college expense issue. 

I would never try to talk my kid out of going to college if he wanted to go.  But there really are kids who have no interest in studying nor in any career that needs college.  And there really are kids who definitely will not succeed in college, especially if they go straight from high school.

Before they finish high school, IMO teens should be getting serious about some real life path, whether it's a trade or a profession that needs a college diploma.  The "getting serious" is the key IMO.  If an 18yo is still swimming around wondering whether he wants to be a fireman or an accountant ... well, I have a hard time justifying thousands of dollars of debt just to help him tread water.  It seems to make more sense to get him some hands-on work experience so, while he ruminates, he can pay for his keep rather than borrow against his uncertain future.  Maybe if he's a genius with a full scholarship, I would think differently, but that would be rather rare.

[tooelitistformegoeleswhere]

12 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I’ve seen (and directly experienced) too many people giving up before they asked a single question or looked at a single website. This is what I am opposed to. My own parents thought of college as something rich people provide for their kids - oops, I mean, their sons - and AFAIK, never even glanced at a college brochure until my brother turned 18. In reality, we probably could have gone on Pell grants at minimum but it was never even discussed. Girls didn’t need to go to college; pretty girls needed it even less because they could get married and not have to worry about career. 

It seems like you have a lot of unresolved issues that are at the root of your issues with people saying college isn't the best choice for everyone. We aren't your parents. Their reasons for not talking to their daughters are not at all what any of us have said. 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Shoeless said:

How? How do young people do this without breaking from either financial stress or mental stress? What realistic path are we offering young people? How does a young person do all this without accruing massive debt? Academic hustle and grind culture in high school, with the hope of a scholarship and admission to a lottery school? 

Half of all student loan holders owe less than $20K, and 1/3 owe less than $10K — that is less than many people owe on their cars. Students with crushing debt are more likely to have attended private or for-profit colleges, and I think most people would agree that it's not advisable to take out huge loans for those. Students who attend in-state publics generally do not graduate with crushing debt, and many states have programs that provide some kind of scholarship to state residents who graduate HS with a good GPA. There are at least 20 states that provide free community college tuition (e.g., the Oregon Promise program covers the cost of up to 90 credits for HS graduates w/a C average or better) and some states offer significant scholarships that can be used at any 4 yr in-state publics as well. As I mentioned in another post, Ohio State covers full tuition and fees for 4 years for Pell recipients, and they have many satellite campuses where COL is much lower than Columbus, and many students may be able to commute to a satellite campus.

In my state, a student could get an AA transfer degree for free while living at home, and then use a combination of grants, Federal loans, and work to cover the rest of the degree at a 4 yr public. Students who are lucky enough to have families they can live with for the first year of working can likely pay off $25K in loans in one year. Of course not everyone has that option (I did not), just like not everyone has parents who set up 529 accounts when they were born, or families who can just write a check to Harvard for full COA. But I think it's a mistake to assume that the only people who can possibly afford college are the very wealthy and everyone else must choose between no degree or a degree + lifelong crushing debt. 

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

If an 18yo is still swimming around wondering whether he wants to be a fireman or an accountant ... well, I have a hard time justifying thousands of dollars of debt just to help him tread water.  It seems to make more sense to get him some hands-on work experience so, while he ruminates, he can pay for his keep rather than borrow against his uncertain future.  

Both my girls have degrees.

Our family has 6 degrees between us.

So, clearly, very much not anti-higher education. The girls did their degrees straight out of school/home school. Both have debt (tuition only) which is paid through our tax system. One will pay it off fairly quickly.

The above is my ds. No idea about what he wants to do long-term, and struggles with ADHD. He's been working (and getting promoted) for the last three years and is getting some idea of his workplace strengths.

I hope that will help him plan for further study. It's possible I've let him down by not pushing him further. I hope not. I think paths can unfurl in various ways, and all have their benefits and costs.

 

 

[tooelitistformegoeleswhere]

37 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I definitely think casting a wide and varied net during the application process is important.  You never know what a college might offer until you apply.  It's important to really sit with the numbers and be really honest and realistic before making a decision.  

A lot of times small satellite campuses are a good value that not many people look at.  The school my kid goes to is a small satellite campus of a big name school, for a bit more than half of the price.  If we didn't live here I wouldn't have even known in existed though.  I know UVA has a small campus in an out of the way location that is much cheaper than UVA in CVille.  

It's called UVA Wise. People just call it "Wise." It's not great. The quality is not at all comparable. I don't know any graduate who would ever say they graduated from UVA.

[Clarita]

58 minutes ago, SKL said:

I was that student.  I brought canned vegetables and stored them in my dorm room, because the overpriced meal plan didn't cover every meal.  That and various other economic hacks that I learned as one of 6 kids whose parents were high school dropouts, and which made me stand out in a not-good way.  Part of what made the school seem affordable was the scholarship, but the scholarship decreased while the tuition increased, and I was seriously broke as well as socially marginalized.  I thought about suicide a lot as I realized how hard (impossible?) it was gonna be to pay off my loans.  Nobody else "got" it.  One of my dorm-mates came back from break whining that all she got for Christmas was a computer (in 1988) and a jet ski.

There were things I really loved about law school, but I could have gotten them at a more affordable school.

My uncle had a similar experience. Although, asking him now if it was "worth it", he would say yes without hesitation. I think it's really hard to determine worth it in terms of the hardship of being the poor student in a sea of wealth.

53 minutes ago, Frances said:

I think we would have to ask the actual current students today to see if they feel they are being accommodated in practice, rather than making sweeping generalizations. More and more schools are providing special support of all types for first generation students, adding free food pantries and housing assistance, special advising and peer support, special scholarships, special internship placement, funds to cover things that FA doesn’t, etc., etc.

I'm not sure there is a way to accommodate the wealth disparity. I'm pretty sure the only way my uncle got to go to University was because he got a complete full ride including room, board and food. That stuff just gets you the ability to go. The school isn't going to provide a student with money to go on Swiss Alps or Aspen ski trips, so they feel like they belong. There is a huge feeling gap between your family can afford to feed you but not an Aspen ski trip and your parents can't afford to feed you and definitely not an Aspen ski trip.     

[Heartstrings]

2 minutes ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

It's called UVA Wise. People just call it "Wise." It's not great. The quality is not at all comparable. I don't know any graduate who would ever say they graduated from UVA.

I graduated from a satellite campus and I would never say I graduated from the flagship, I didn't. That's how that works.  We have a whole state wide system and each campus has a name, that's what people use when they talk about where they went to college.  Still get to check a box for College Degree and didn't pay the big name prices for a fancy football team.  

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I graduated from a satellite campus and I would never say I graduated from the flagship, I didn't. That's how that works.  We have a whole state wide system and each campus has a name, that's what people use when they talk about where they went to college.  Still get to check a box for College Degree and didn't pay the big name prices for a fancy football team.  

Interesting ... I always say I went to __ State University, which awarded my diploma.  I never attended the "main campus," but the regional campuses were controlled centrally.  Maybe your arrangement was different.

[tooelitistformegoeleswhere]

Just now, Heartstrings said:

I graduated from a satellite campus and I would never say I graduated from the flagship, I didn't. That's how that works.  We have a whole state wide system and each campus has a name, that's what people use when they talk about where they went to college.  Still get to check a box for College Degree and didn't pay the big name prices for a fancy football team.  

Eh, the graduates I know are mostly the teachers making $30,000 a year and owing $80,000 at the end of it. 

[Corraleno]

Another way to get a degree very inexpensively is to combine 1-2 years of credits from Arizona State's Universal Learner program plus employer-subsidized tuition for the remainder of an ASU degree. The Universal Learner online program only costs $425 per 3-credit course, which is $8500 for 2 years of credits covering all GEs. A student could use CLEPs as well to save even more, and there are colleges like Thomas Edison State College in NJ that accept nearly all CLEP, DSST, and ACE credits and only require a few actual classes, which can be taken online fairly inexpensively.

Many large employers provide tuition reimbursement and I know that Starbucks has a special program with ASU Online that covers the full cost of tuition (up front, not as reimbursement) for employees working at least 20 hrs/wk. I'm not suggesting that Starbucks is an awesome place to work, but a student could do 2 years of credits through Universal Learner and then work at SB part time for 2 years and end up with a degree from ASU for a total of $8500. And there are many other companies (UPS, Publix, Home Depot, Lowes, Chik-fil-A, Papa Johns, and others) that also offer some kind of tuition reimbursement that would allow a student to work while getting a degree P/T for free or cheap.

[Heartstrings]

Just now, SKL said:

Interesting ... I always say I went to __ State University, which awarded my diploma.  I never attended the "main campus," but the regional campuses were controlled centrally.  Maybe your arrangement was different.

Probably differs by state.  No one that graduated from the regional campuses in my state would say they went to University of ___ unless they went to the main campus.  We say University of ______ + City name, or just use initials. So not saying that I graduated from University of ____ in no way means I'm ashamed of the quality of the education I received.  It means I went to a different school, in the same system but a separate entity.  I could not have registered for classes on the main campus for example, they are fully separate entities.    Maybe satellite school isn't the right word for that set up, I'm not sure.  

[Corraleno]

28 minutes ago, Clarita said:

My uncle had a similar experience. Although, asking him now if it was "worth it", he would say yes without hesitation. I think it's really hard to determine worth it in terms of the hardship of being the poor student in a sea of wealth.

I'm not sure there is a way to accommodate the wealth disparity. I'm pretty sure the only way my uncle got to go to University was because he got a complete full ride including room, board and food. That stuff just gets you the ability to go. The school isn't going to provide a student with money to go on Swiss Alps or Aspen ski trips, so they feel like they belong. There is a huge feeling gap between your family can afford to feed you but not an Aspen ski trip and your parents can't afford to feed you and definitely not an Aspen ski trip.     

Unless a low-income student is at Harvard, or some other elite college where a very large percentage of students come from vast wealth, I really don't think the wealth gap is all that meaningful. I went to a private LAC that had a lot of full-pay students and some of my friends were extremely wealthy and some were on full rides like me, and there really wasn't any snobbiness or exclusion. One of my friends came from a super wealthy family that had a huge estate and kept a stable of polo ponies; another girl in my dorm had a dad who would fly in to visit her in his private plane. One of my best friends lived in a penthouse condo on St Pete beach, and my boyfriend's dad was a C-suite exec with International Paper. There were kids there driving Mercedes and sports cars, kids driving old beaters, and kids like me who could never afford a car and barely had bus fare. And none of that really made any difference in how kids treated each other.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Corraleno

[tooelitistformegoeleswhere]

13 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Another way to get a degree very inexpensively is to combine 1-2 years of credits from Arizona State's Universal Learner program plus employer-subsidized tuition for the remainder of an ASU degree. The Universal Learner online program only costs $425 per 3-credit course, which is $8500 for 2 years of credits covering all GEs. A student could use CLEPs as well to save even more, and there are colleges like Thomas Edison State College in NJ that accept nearly all CLEP, DSST, and ACE credits and only require a few actual classes, which can be taken online fairly inexpensively.

Many large employers provide tuition reimbursement and I know that Starbucks has a special program with ASU Online that covers the full cost of tuition (up front, not as reimbursement) for employees working at least 20 hrs/wk. I'm not suggesting that Starbucks is an awesome place to work, but a student could do 2 years of credits through Universal Learner and then work at SB part time for 2 years and end up with a degree from ASU for a total of $8500. And there are many other companies (UPS, Publix, Home Depot, Lowes, Chik-fil-A, Papa Johns, and others) that also offer some kind of tuition reimbursement that would allow a student to work while getting a degree P/T for free or cheap.

Those are options if they suit the child, and they should definitely be discussed if the child wants to pursue a college degree. But that may not work for someone who doesn't learn well online or who lives in a rural area with poor internet or where those employers don't exist. I'm not saying that the suggestions you have aren't good, but I am saying that they aren't universally applicable.

Also, some kids just aren't suited to college. They may not be able to handle the academics, or they may just want to do something that doesn't require a degree. 

[Frances]

49 minutes ago, Clarita said:

My uncle had a similar experience. Although, asking him now if it was "worth it", he would say yes without hesitation. I think it's really hard to determine worth it in terms of the hardship of being the poor student in a sea of wealth.

I'm not sure there is a way to accommodate the wealth disparity. I'm pretty sure the only way my uncle got to go to University was because he got a complete full ride including room, board and food. That stuff just gets you the ability to go. The school isn't going to provide a student with money to go on Swiss Alps or Aspen ski trips, so they feel like they belong. There is a huge feeling gap between your family can afford to feed you but not an Aspen ski trip and your parents can't afford to feed you and definitely not an Aspen ski trip.     

I don’t think you can eliminate the wealth disparity, after all it still is the real world. But I don’t think your uncle and SKL’s experience as one of a very few poor students in a sea of wealth is nearly as common today. The super elite schools with lots of high wealth students actively recruit and bring in ever increasing numbers of first generation and Pell grant eligible students. And they are not just accepting the students and then leaving them on their own. They are providing a myriad of extra support and ways for them to connect with peers and even faculty and staff who come from similar backgrounds. Most college campuses are far, far more diverse in every way than when your uncle or SKL or I attended college.
 

Personally, as someone with a STEM background, I’m far more concerned about students choosing super elite schools with poor academic preparation due to attending inadequate public schools despite qualifying academically, as I think it can close doors for them. In general, I think they are better off choosing slightly lower ranked schools with excellent financial and other supports, thus hopefully leaving open the full range of majors and careers. This also likely lessens the wealth divide they will encounter to some degree.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Frances

[Melissa Louise]

8 minutes ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

Those are options if they suit the child, and they should definitely be discussed if the child wants to pursue a college degree. But that may not work for someone who doesn't learn well online or who lives in a rural area with poor internet or where those employers don't exist. I'm not saying that the suggestions you have aren't good, but I am saying that they aren't universally applicable.

Also, some kids just aren't suited to college. They may not be able to handle the academics, or they may just want to do something that doesn't require a degree. 

Aptitude is indeed 'a thing'.

It's crazy that we live in a world that makes everyone squeeze through more years of institutional education (and I say that as someone who loves tertiary studies, I would be studying again right now if I hadn't banned myself). 

[Corraleno]

19 minutes ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

Eh, the graduates I know are mostly the teachers making $30,000 a year and owing $80,000 at the end of it. 

Well unfortunately that sounds like they did not make very wise choices.

I mean, I absolutely agree that college tuition is way too high and I'm 100% in favor of increasing state funding for higher education, including providing free CC, more grants for low income students, etc., but I think the picture that gets painted of an entire generation drowning in huge student loan debt they can never pay back really misrepresents the situation and glosses over the fact that a lot of the folks with crushing debts made personal choices that were just not smart.

Whether that was the result of bad advice from guidance counselors, naive parents, irrational students focused on unaffordable "dream schools," predatory lenders, or some combo of all of the above, the fact remains that any student who took out $80K in loans to get a teaching degree did not do their due diligence and did not make a smart choice.

DS had many college options by virtue of being one of the top recruits in the US for his sport — he could have chosen Duke, Notre Dame, or Brown, with little to no scholarship money, or near-full-rides from one of two excellent, though less prestigious, OOS publics, and he chose one of the latter. I know from years of reading College Confidential that many other parents and kids would do whatever it took to attend an Ivy, even if that meant massive loans for both parents and student, but IMNSHO that is a truly stupid choice, and they have no right to complain about debt they willingly incurred when there were much more affordable options available.

[Corraleno]

13 minutes ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

Those are options if they suit the child, and they should definitely be discussed if the child wants to pursue a college degree. But that may not work for someone who doesn't learn well online or who lives in a rural area with poor internet or where those employers don't exist. I'm not saying that the suggestions you have aren't good, but I am saying that they aren't universally applicable.

Also, some kids just aren't suited to college. They may not be able to handle the academics, or they may just want to do something that doesn't require a degree. 

Yes of course some kids would not do well with an all-online degree, and some kids just aren't suited to college — I'm related to many of them. Nearly all of the males in my family, from my grandparents' generation to my kids' generation, have chosen blue collar jobs (construction, auto mechanic, lineman, pipe-fitter, fisherman, welder, machinist, print shop worker, etc.) and have done decently well with that. One of my kids is doing a 1-yr certificate at the CC, while the other is finishing a Masters degree and trying to decide whether to continue for a PhD or just work for a while. 

I was just mentioning the inexpensive online options as a counterpoint to the idea that the only choices out there are no degree or a degree with crushing debt. Even in jobs where a degree isn't necessary, people with degrees often earn more money — and that can be hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of a lifetime. For a student who would like to earn a degree but thinks it's impossible because they have no savings, no parental help, no shot at academic scholarships, etc., there are options like free CC and/or free or low-cost online degrees that those students might want to explore.

[tooelitistformegoeleswhere]

22 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Well unfortunately that sounds like they did not make very wise choices.

I mean, I absolutely agree that college tuition is way too high and I'm 100% in favor of increasing state funding for higher education, including providing free CC, more grants for low income students, etc., but I think the picture that gets painted of an entire generation drowning in huge student loan debt they can never pay back really misrepresents the situation and glosses over the fact that a lot of the folks with crushing debts made personal choices that were just not smart.

Whether that was the result of bad advice from guidance counselors, naive parents, irrational students focused on unaffordable "dream schools," predatory lenders, or some combo of all of the above, the fact remains that any student who took out $80K in loans to get a teaching degree did not do their due diligence and did not make a smart choice.

DS had many college options by virtue of being one of the top recruits in the US for his sport — he could have chosen Duke, Notre Dame, or Brown, with little to no scholarship money, or near-full-rides from one of two excellent, though less prestigious, OOS publics, and he chose one of the latter. I know from years of reading College Confidential that many other parents and kids would do whatever it took to attend an Ivy, even if that meant massive loans for both parents and student, but IMNSHO that is a truly stupid choice, and they have no right to complain about debt they willingly incurred when there were much more affordable options available.

A lot of people can't afford college but make just enough to not qualify for assistance. I know a girl whose dad made $40 too much for her to qualify for the FAFSA. She couldn't get a dime of aide but also couldn't afford tuition. It's not always just "these people don't check;" sometimes it's "they can't get help."

[Frances]

13 minutes ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

A lot of people can't afford college but make just enough to not qualify for assistance. I know a girl whose dad made $40 too much for her to qualify for the FAFSA. She couldn't get a dime of aide but also couldn't afford tuition. It's not always just "these people don't check;" sometimes it's "they can't get help."

The FAFSA’s main purpose is to determine eligibility for federal financial aid. But different colleges use different ways to determine their own financial aid and scholarships. Many of the more selective schools use the much more thorough and complicated College Profile for example. Just because a student doesn’t qualify for any federal aid based on the FAFSA, it does not mean they will not get any financial aid from a particular college. In such a situation, they may need to apply more broadly to find a school that is both an academic and financial fit.

And just for clarity because it can be quite confusing, one can’t qualify or not qualify for the FAFSA, but one can be found to be eligible or not eligible for federal financial aid such as Pell Grants and subsidized loans by completing the FAFSA. But federal aid is often just the start of the financial aid available at many colleges.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Frances

[Heartstrings]

Just now, Frances said:

The FAFSA’s main purpose is to determine eligibility for federal financial aid. But different colleges use different ways to determine their own financial aid and scholarships. Many of the more selective schools use the much more thorough and complicated College Profile for example. Just because a student doesn’t qualify for any federal aid based on the FAFSA, it does not mean they will not get any financial aid from a particular college.

Part of the problem is how hidden all of that is.   It’s just not practical to apply to every college in the country because some have a secret pot of money with a mystical process.   It makes it impossible to make good decisions, while always allowing for someone to second guess, because if they had just applied to a college they’d never heard of, in a state they’ve never been to, across the country, they would have gotten the secret money.   It’s simply a ridiculous system.  

[Clarita]

1 hour ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

Eh, the graduates I know are mostly the teachers making $30,000 a year and owing $80,000 at the end of it. 

So people who are saying college is always(?) worth it. How do you all feel about this situation? Is this scenario worth it?

(My kids are almost 7 and 5. Here's your hunk of salt.) Right at this moment, I see myself weighing the college degree they want and the return on investment of that degree.  Honestly, I can see my husband and I giving our children a side-eye if they tell me they want a degree Asian American studies or Sociology or something. I feel like I'm going to get flamed for this but the way the system works right now I don't think all degrees are worth it for the just starting out 18/19 year old.

[Frances]

Just now, Heartstrings said:

Part of the problem is how hidden all of that is.   It’s just not practical to apply to every college in the country because some have a secret pot of money with a mystical process.   It makes it impossible to make good decisions, while always allowing for someone to second guess, because if they had just applied to a college they’d never heard of, in a state they’ve never been to, across the country, they would have gotten the secret money.   It’s simply a ridiculous system.  

I agree the system is too complicated and often not readily understood. That’s why when I retire I am going to volunteer at one my local high schools in the program that helps students choose colleges and training programs and walks them through the application and financial aid process.

Due to my very well meaning parents not knowing much about college and a terrible high school guidance counselor, I almost ended up at one of the Devry schools rather than a Colleges that Change Lives LAC that was both very affordable and life changing for me. It was literally pure luck that I ended up where I did.

[tooelitistformegoeleswhere]

5 minutes ago, Frances said:

The FAFSA’s main purpose is to determine eligibility for federal financial aid. But different colleges use different ways to determine their own financial aid and scholarships. Many of the more selective schools use the much more thorough and complicated College Profile for example. Just because a student doesn’t qualify for any federal aid based on the FAFSA, it does not mean they will not get any financial aid from a particular college. In such a situation, they may need to apply more broadly to find a school that is both an academic and financial fit.

And if that kid isn't accepted to a more selective school? Seriously, what about that B+ student who would have rocked a state college but can't get admitted to a selective school with better financial aid? 

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but it really feels like people on this board are very quick to handwave away people who say college isn't a financial option. 

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

Unless a low-income student is at Harvard, or some other elite college where a very large percentage of students come from vast wealth, I really don't think the wealth gap is all that meaningful. I went to a private LAC that had a lot of full-pay students and some of my friends were extremely wealthy and some were on full rides like me, and there really wasn't any snobbiness or exclusion. One of my friends came from a super wealthy family that had a huge estate and kept a stable of polo ponies; another girl in my dorm had a dad who would fly in to visit her in his private plane. One of my best friends lived in a penthouse condo on St Pete beach, and my boyfriend's dad was a C-suite exec with International Paper. There were kids there driving Mercedes and sports cars, kids driving old beaters, and kids like me who could never afford a car and barely had bus fare. And none of that really made any difference in how kids treated each other.

I think that is probably very unusual.

[tooelitistformegoeleswhere]

8 minutes ago, Clarita said:

So people who are saying college is always(?) worth it. How do you all feel about this situation? Is this scenario worth it?

(My kids are almost 7 and 5. Here's your hunk of salt.) Right at this moment, I see myself weighing the college degree they want and the return on investment of that degree.  Honestly, I can see my husband and I giving our children a side-eye if they tell me they want a degree Asian American studies or Sociology or something. I feel like I'm going to get flamed for this but the way the system works right now I don't think all degrees are worth it for the just starting out 18/19 year old.

Honestly? No, I don't think college is always worth it. I think it's a complicated and personal choice, and nobody can ever know all the factors that went into someone else's decision. 

[Frances]

1 minute ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

And if that kid isn't accepted to a more selective school? Seriously, what about that B+ student who would have rocked a state college but can't get admitted to a selective school with better financial aid? 

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but it really feels like people on this board are very quick to handwave away people who say college isn't a financial option. 

There are lots of LACs out there, for example, that are no more selective than many state schools. My undergrad would be one of them. It’s not just the most elite ones that are trying to recruit a diverse class. One common mistake of parents new to the college game is focusing on the sticker price and not even considering somewhat pricey private schools that may ultimately be cheaper.

I get that some students truly can’t afford any four year college. Starting with community college with hopefully the option to live at home or with relatives is likely the best option in those cases. If they truly would have rocked a state college than they are very likely to get a good transfer scholarship when it is time. In fact, some of the elite universities specifically target community college grads.

[Corraleno]

42 minutes ago, Clarita said:

So people who are saying college is always(?) worth it. How do you all feel about this situation? Is this scenario worth it?

I would never argue that college is always worth it, but I think a person who chose to go $80K in debt for a teaching degree chose poorly. They would almost certainly have had more affordable options, but sometimes students want the bragging rights of a more prestigious school, or the one with the nicer dorms, or the one near the beach, or whatever. I think a reasonable rule of thumb is not to accrue more debt than you could reasonably earn in a year after graduation.

In my area, even most low-skill jobs are paying ~$20/hr or so, and CC tuition is free, so a student who can live at home while getting a free AA and working P/T during school and F/T in summers would likely have saved enough to cover most of the tuition, and even R&B, for the final two years at an in-state public, or they may have a very small amount of loans that could easily be paid off once they start working.

Obviously not all states have free CC, and not all parents would let their kids continue to live at home, but I'm sure there are options in every state that would allow a student to get a teaching degree without going $80K in debt.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Corraleno

[Corraleno]

29 minutes ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

And if that kid isn't accepted to a more selective school? Seriously, what about that B+ student who would have rocked a state college but can't get admitted to a selective school with better financial aid? 

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but it really feels like people on this board are very quick to handwave away people who say college isn't a financial option. 

Because there are ways to get a college degree for cheap or even free. Those ways are not likely anyone's first choice, and they may not be suitable for every single student in America, and it may take longer than 4 yrs if classes have to be done while working full time, but I do believe that for any student who really wants a college degree, and who is cognitively capable of earning one, it's almost certainly possible to do that in an affordable way.

[tooelitistformegoeleswhere]

1 minute ago, Corraleno said:

I think a person who chose to go $80K in debt for a teaching degree chose poorly. They would almost certainly have had more affordable options, but sometimes students want the bragging rights of a more prestigious school, or the one with the nicer dorms, or the one near the beach, or whatever. I think a reasonable rule of thumb is not to accrue more debt than you could reasonably earn in a year after graduation.

In my area, even most low-skill jobs are paying ~$20/hr or so, and CC tuition is free, so a student who can live at home while getting a free AA and working P/T during school and F/T in summers would likely have saved enough to cover most of the tuition, and even R&B, for the final two years at an in-state public, or they may have a very small amount of loans that could easily be paid off once they start working.

Obviously not all states have free CC, and not all parents would let their kids continue to live at home, but I'm sure there are options in every state that would allow a student to get a teaching degree without going $80K in debt.

No. We don't live in an area near a university. We're actually quite a way away from the main campus of the CC. 

Most of these people went to the most affordable four-year college they could; it's about $25,000 a year including tuition, r&b, books, etc. Their parents made too much for help but too little to afford it. 

[tooelitistformegoeleswhere]

38 minutes ago, Frances said:

There are lots of LACs out there, for example, that are no more selective than many state schools. My undergrad would be one of them. It’s not just the most elite ones that are trying to recruit a diverse class. One common mistake of parents new to the college game is focusing on the sticker price and not even considering somewhat pricey private schools that may ultimately be cheaper.

I get that some students truly can’t afford any four year college. Starting with community college with hopefully the option to live at home or with relatives is likely the best option in those cases. If they truly would have rocked a state college than they are very likely to get a good transfer scholarship when it is time. In fact, some of the elite universities specifically target community college grads.

Realistically, how many colleges do you think a student should apply to? With application fees and everything else, it's not possible to apply everywhere. So how much should a family budget for that?

How do you recommend students find these smaller colleges? It's easy to find information on the larger schools, but a lot of people don't even know many of these schools exist. What are key terms they should use in a search? 

[tooelitistformegoeleswhere]

18 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Because there are ways to get a college degree for cheap or even free. Those ways are not likely anyone's first choice, and they may not be suitable for every single student in America, and it may take longer than 4 yrs if classes have to be done while working full time, but I do believe that for any student who really wants a college degree, and who is cognitively capable of earning one, it's almost certainly possible to do that in an affordable way.

That feels... aggressively idealistic as a positive description and abhorrently dismissive as a negative one. 

[Kassia]

1 hour ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

A lot of people can't afford college but make just enough to not qualify for assistance. I know a girl whose dad made $40 too much for her to qualify for the FAFSA. She couldn't get a dime of aide but also couldn't afford tuition. It's not always just "these people don't check;" sometimes it's "they can't get help."

Ds2 had a roommate who got aid through FAFSA until junior year when his dad got a better paying job.  His dad was making more money so now they didn't qualify for aid, but they were actually better off when his dad made less money because the aid was more than the increase in pay.  The roommate's family refused to contribute more to college, so their son was left to make up that aid money he had been getting for his first two years.  It was really stressful for him, but he did get through and graduate.  

[Frances]

30 minutes ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

Realistically, how many colleges do you think a student should apply to? With application fees and everything else, it's not possible to apply everywhere. So how much should a family budget for that?

How do you recommend students find these smaller colleges? It's easy to find information on the larger schools, but a lot of people don't even know many of these schools exist. What are key terms they should use in a search? 

For LACs, I’d start with Colleges that Change Lives and go from there. Demographics are in the students’ favor and that is just going to keep being more and more the case. The number of college students is going to keep declining and sadly, more and more of the lowest ranked privates are going to end up closing while the others compete more aggressively for available students.

I don’t know that there is a set number to apply to, but for schools that are trying to bring in a diverse student body, they do like geographic diversity. So maybe apply to the local CC, the local regional state U, a state flagship, and then some LACs in the same region of the country and some in one or more other regions. For example, my son was happy staying in the PNW or going to the Midwest where we had lots of family, but would not consider the east coast or south. In our case, he applied to a relatively high number because we were chasing scholarship $, due to not qualifying for financial aid, and generally applying to schools with quite low acceptance rates (some had no scholarships, only financial aid, as is common with the most elite schools). Whenever someone is chasing $ and/or elite admissions, the reality is that they generally have to apply to a greater number of schools.

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Frances

[Frances]

51 minutes ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

No. We don't live in an area near a university. We're actually quite a way away from the main campus of the CC. 

Most of these people went to the most affordable four-year college they could; it's about $25,000 a year including tuition, r&b, books, etc. Their parents made too much for help but too little to afford it. 

Sadly, in these cases, I don’t think starting with a four year on-campus experience was the right choice if the goal was a teacher and the end result was $80k in debt. It sounds as though the parents could help very little and/or the students didn’t work much during the school year and summers, if only $5k per year was being paid and the rest was loans.
 

Many years ago my FIL, who taught public school for 40 years, lived at home for 15 months after graduating from high school and worked almost two full time jobs and saved everything he made before going to college. And then of course continued to work during the school year and summers while at college. While of course that type of savings would not go as far now as it did then, it certainly would still help. And since most public school teachers can retire after 30 years with a full pension, delaying the start of college by a year or two is not so significant.

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

No. We don't live in an area near a university. We're actually quite a way away from the main campus of the CC. 

Most of these people went to the most affordable four-year college they could; it's about $25,000 a year including tuition, r&b, books, etc. Their parents made too much for help but too little to afford it. 

But this example is proving the point that several others of us are trying to make: there are options besides "the full college experience" with huge debt. Insisting that these people chose the "most affordable" option available to them, as if their only options were no degree or $80K of debt, is just not true. There were other options, but these folks either didn't realize they existed or didn't like them. The nearest CC may have been a bit of a commute, but commuting while living at home for a year or two would still have been cheaper than 4 years on campus.

Working F/T for a year while studying for and taking CLEPs is another option — most state unis, especially less selective ones, accept enough CLEPs (and sometimes DSSTs and even ACE credits) that a student can get a year or more of college credits for the cost of a few tests — that alone could have knocked $20K off the debt, and the earnings they saved while studying for CLEP likely could have knocked off at least another $10K.

There are colleges that allow students to test out of 3+ years of credits, and tuition for the last year of classes is quite cheap. Western Governors offers many online degrees, including several BA and BS degrees in education, for a flat fee of $3800 per semester, and many students finish a degree in 3 years; that's less than $25K.

47 minutes ago, pocketfullofpennies said:

That feels... aggressively idealistic as a positive description and abhorrently dismissive as a negative one. 

It's neither overly idealistic nor dismissive — it's literally just a statement of fact. You can get a degree from Thomas Edison State, Charter Oak State, or Excelsior College for a few thousand dollars because they let you test out of almost all classes  — and Modern States even offers free vouchers that cover the CLEP test fees if you do the (also free) prep through them. If you work at least part time for a company that reimburses tuition, you can CLEP out of a bunch of GEs for free and then get the rest of the degree covered by the employer.

None of these options are as appealing and fun as getting the full college experience while living on campus for four years, and while I am actually a big fan of the full college experience, and even believe that it may be worth going into some debt for, I don't believe it's ever worth $80K of debt unless it's for a degree that will earn a comparable salary, like CS or engineering.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Corraleno

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

Another way to get a degree very inexpensively is to combine 1-2 years of credits from Arizona State's Universal Learner program plus employer-subsidized tuition for the remainder of an ASU degree. The Universal Learner online program only costs $425 per 3-credit course, which is $8500 for 2 years of credits covering all GEs. A student could use CLEPs as well to save even more, and there are colleges like Thomas Edison State College in NJ that accept nearly all CLEP, DSST, and ACE credits and only require a few actual classes, which can be taken online fairly inexpensively.

Many large employers provide tuition reimbursement and I know that Starbucks has a special program with ASU Online that covers the full cost of tuition (up front, not as reimbursement) for employees working at least 20 hrs/wk. I'm not suggesting that Starbucks is an awesome place to work, but a student could do 2 years of credits through Universal Learner and then work at SB part time for 2 years and end up with a degree from ASU for a total of $8500. And there are many other companies (UPS, Publix, Home Depot, Lowes, Chik-fil-A, Papa Johns, and others) that also offer some kind of tuition reimbursement that would allow a student to work while getting a degree P/T for free or cheap.

I get the points being made about alternate pathways to a college degree. Go a few pages back and you'll see that I said we planned to utilize a combo of CLEP exams, work, community college, DE to get it done. I have tons of CLEP and DANTES exam credits, and they served me well. But they aren't easy tests. You still have to self-study the material, and the little review course from modern states is not going to be enough on its own to pass. 

But those pathways have also been looked down on as "not good enough". I'm sure you've seen some of the advice on the college board about DE at c.c. or via high school being of poorer quality than the DE available at 4 year university. 

I have seen people on FB brag they signed their 9 year old up for ASU UL and mommy "helps" the student get through the unproctored, self-paced class. My alma mater doesn't give Gen Ed credit for the self-paced, unproctored classes via ASU UL. Gee, I wonder why. 🙃

We acknowledge that college expenses have gone way, way up, and have not kept in line with inflation or salaries.  My first year tuition, room, and board was $4000.  If I lived at home, it would have been half that.  I could easily make that money in a year working part time at the ice cream shop and giving flute lessons after school. That same school is now $24k a year for room, board, tuition. My kid would have to work full time at $15+ an hour to pay for one year. This is for a state school, not private. 

I was not a kid that had to hustle to get into college. I had 2 AP classes my senior year, no volunteer hours, and a handful of unremarkable clubs. My SAT and ACT score were very average, (no test prep! I didn't know that was a thing, so I took them cold).

To be able to get college expenses down to an affordable level, my kid will have to hustle hustle hustle way more than I ever needed to. I am not surprised at all that people question the value of college when you have to work so much harder than before just to get through. 

 

[Frances]

37 minutes ago, Shoeless said:

But those pathways have also been looked down on as "not good enough". I'm sure you've seen some of the advice on the college board about DE at c.c. or via high school being of poorer quality than the DE available at 4 year university. 

 

You have to keep in my the different contexts in which these questions are being asked and answered about dual enrollment. There are so many different situations and scenarios, sometimes even within the same family. Often when people don’t recommend CC for dual enrollment it’s because it’s being asked for a student who plans to do four full years at their ultimate college of choice and the parent knows based on the quality of their local CC that doing the class at home or at a local four year school is going to be much more worthwhile. That was certainly the case for my son. My husband had completed a few check the box classes (statistics, economics) at our local CC before applying for professional grad school and we knew based on his experience that any of those type of classes would not be worth it for our son. Plus, he could walk to the local LAC vs a long bus ride to the CC and he fortunately qualified for a special program at the private LAC ($200 per class) that made it far cheaper than the CC. Now had he been interested in say engineering, which our CC has a good reputation for and the LAC doesn’t offer, we likely would have seriously considered the CC.

On the other hand, if someone is asking about a good way to earn transferable college credits while in high school that doesn’t involve lots of extra hoop jumping and there is a relatively good CC nearby, then many might advocate for using it. Many people also want their child to experience taking classes outside the home before college and sometimes just want the easiest and most cost effective way to do it while others don’t see that as a priority and want the most rigorous or tailored options for their children. There is no one size fits all and people often have very different goals and very different children.

I know lots of people that started at CCs and later went on to excellent universities and did very well. Just like four year colleges, there is a wide range of quality at CCs. And even within a CC or a college there can be quite a range of quality. Using sites like Rate My Professors and talking to others who have taken classes can often be quite informative.

I wouldn’t worry about what others think, just focus on what is best for your children. 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Frances