If we did this homeschool thing -- Oldest?

[Drama Llama]

My youngest has convinced his brother that they should return to homeschool in 2024.   Their only previous experience with homeschooling was during the pandemic. Before I say yes or no, I want to get a picture of what that might look like so I thought I might start a thread for each kid where I think about what homeschool might look like for them.  Keep in mind that I work full time outside the home, and my husband lives very far away, so we'd need a plan that doesn't require me teaching much.  We do have family members in the neighborhood, that they could go to for company, but I don't want to ask them to teach.  We live in an area that's pretty urban, with great public transportation, lots of things to do, but not a lot of homeschooling.  Oldest will be able to drive.  

Oldest will be 17, 11th grade.  He'll already have the following credits on his transcript:

Alg. 1, Geometry, and Alg 2

Spanish 1, 2 and 3

2 credits in English

Biology

Global Studies

US History

5 credits of music 

2 credits of PE

He loves music and working with kids, and would like to major in music ed or music therapy in college.  His performance focus would be either jazz voice or bass.  He'd like a schedule that leaves time for him to keep teaching swim lessons, and training for triathlons.  He's a hard worker, but not a particularly fast worker, and math in particular does not come easily to him. 

We live about a 20 minute drive from a community college that offers an AA degree in music.  My thought is that he could start there part time, and work towards becoming full time.  He could either complete the AA degree there in 2 years by doing summers to make up for the slow start, or extend it over 3 years, or he could just get as much done as he gets done in two years and then transfer to a 4 year school.  

So, with all of that (if you haven't stopped reading altogether)

I'm thinking of maybe a schedule like this:

All year at home, with support from a math/science tutor.  Maybe with asynchronous courses so that he can go slow during the CC semesters, and catch up during breaks)

Some kind of math (If the goal is to get through College Statistics in 2025-26, does a non-AP statistics class make sense?  Or Precalc?  Which provider would you suggest?)

Chemistry ? 

 

At the community college

 

Fall

English 101 (3 cr)

Applied Music + Lab (3 cr)

Music Theory (3 cr)

Large Ensemble (1 cr)

 

Winter (short term)

English 102 (3 cr)

 

Spring

Music History (3 cr)

Applied Music + Lab (3 cr)

Music Theory (3 cr)

Ear Training (2 cr) 

 

Summer

US Government (3 cr)

 

Is that too much?  Does doing English and Government at home make more sense?  Does trying the full course load at CC make sense?  Should I discard this idea all together?

[JennyD]

Is he happy at his current school?  

[Drama Llama]

I think he's happier at school than his brother is, but if he knew his brother was home, he'd want to be home too. 

 

[BusyMom5]

Before this plan goes any further,  you need to know how homeschooling would affect his college choices. 

1.  Can he go back to HS his Sr year if he chooses?  Here, high schools often won't count classes done at home- once you start at home, you stay at home. 

2.  Are there scholarships or other opportunities that he won't be able to participate in?  Programs for upper high school can be a great way to try out careers.  Be sure you talk about that in advance, make sure he isn't interested in any of the options at his school.

3.  Letters of recommendation- he will probably need them for admission,  scholarships, or entrance into special programs in college.  He needs to keep this in mind at the College he DE at.

4.  Know the laws in your state as well as what possible colleges will want from applicants.  Be sure you check off all the admission requirements. 

5.  Costs- dual enrollment usually costs $$.  Depending on the class, the price changes.  Research your options!  

I have loved homeschooling high school, and it might be a good option, but it's not the easiest route.  Ask about specific courses and professors if you can!  I couldn't tell you anything about the classes,  but you can print out a degree plan from several universities you would consider and check transfer agreement.   Your plan isn't how I would organize it- I'd put more Gen Ed's  in each semester.   

[Malam]

You might find this helpful: https://netforum.avectra.com/eweb/DynamicPage.aspx?Site=AMTA2&WebCode=OrgResult&FromSearchControl=Yes

[Farrar]

Rather than get a tutor, I'd just enroll him in outside courses with a teacher for math and science. There are a ton of options for pre-calculus and physics, which it seems like would be the two courses he'd be in. 

The load you're talking about at the community college is heavy. In particular, those music theory classes are sometimes absolute killers. I've seen them take down super academic overachievers who love music. And three classes, plus ensemble, is just a lot to have on top of other academic requirements. So I'd consider cutting that down a notch.

[Vida Winter]

I would be extremely reluctant to pull your oldest out of school since he is already halfway through. In our family, it was all or nothing - two kids were homeschooled all the way through and one went from homeschooling to public school starting in 8th grade. The differences we found when applying for scholarships were significant. Most academic scholarship opportunities in our state were simply not available to homeschoolers. We had to shoot for high ACT/SAT scores to obtain merit money. If you are thinking of community college credits, the high school probably has an arrangement that can allow your son to take these at school.

Another significant consideration would be the change from a brick-and-mortar school to homeschool. Most of us had many years of getting used to this when our kids were young and had a lot of time to ease into it. The fact that you work full-time would be a deal-breaker for me. I think it's too much to ask of kids to manage that much on their own. It was hard to find the time to do everything we needed to and I did not work outside the home.

I know that brick-and-mortar school has its disadvantages and there may be other issues that you have not mentioned. I just don't want to make it seem like homeschooling is easy-breezy in high school -- it really takes a lot of time and effort on the part of parents and students.

[Penelope]

How long has he been in public/private school? It might be hard to switch back at this point. Or it might not, with so much DE. Are there are a lot of teens also doing DE the last two years at his current school? That is a popular option in many places, so maybe it will be just fine. I have seen kids even in private schools do a lot of their last two years at cc. But they are still connected to their school community. Will he feel like he is missing out when it comes to all of the social stuff at school, senior year especially, since this would be a big change of plans?

 

 

[Drama Llama]

14 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

Before this plan goes any further,  you need to know how homeschooling would affect his college choices. 

1.  Can he go back to HS his Sr year if he chooses?  Here, high schools often won't count classes done at home- once you start at home, you stay at home. 
 

Not his current school, and I am not sure about public. 

14 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

2.  Are there scholarships or other opportunities that he won't be able to participate in?  Programs for upper high school can be a great way to try out careers.  Be sure you talk about that in advance, make sure he isn't interested in any of the options at his school.

No, I don’t think so.  

14 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

3.  Letters of recommendation- he will probably need them for admission,  scholarships, or entrance into special programs in college.  He needs to keep this in mind at the College he DE at.

4.  Know the laws in your state as well as what possible colleges will want from applicants.  Be sure you check off all the admission requirements. 

5.  Costs- dual enrollment usually costs $$.  Depending on the class, the price changes.  Research your options!  
 

I think whatever we do homeschooling it will cost less than what we are currently doing.

14 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

I have loved homeschooling high school, and it might be a good option, but it's not the easiest route.  Ask about specific courses and professors if you can!  I couldn't tell you anything about the classes,  but you can print out a degree plan from several universities you would consider and check transfer agreement.   Your plan isn't how I would organize it- I'd put more Gen Ed's  in each semester.   

My understanding is that the music won’t transfer.  I think he’ll still need 4 years in most BM programs.  But theoretically, spending more time on music will help him in the audition process so he will have more options. If his gen ed classes transfer it would open up more space to pursue interests. 
 

I do not expect bim to be ready for college level math and science two years early.  Maybe I   am underestimating him.  

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Penelope said:

How long has he been in public/private school? It might be hard to switch back at this point. Or it might not, with so much DE. Are there are a lot of teens also doing DE the last two years at his current school? That is a popular option in many places, so maybe it will be just fine. I have seen kids even in private schools do a lot of their last two years at cc. But they are still connected to their school community. Will he feel like he is missing out when it comes to all of the social stuff at school, senior year especially, since this would be a big change of plans?

There is no DE option at his current school. I have never heard of a private school in our area allowing it. 

This would only happen if he decided he wants it.  I figure he’s the one who needs to decide what he’s OK missing.  He’s not the kid who brought it up, but he was very quick to say yes when little bro brought it up.  I don’t think his current school is a great fit for him, but he was adamant about not being separated from his brother which limited options.  

[Drama Llama]

4 hours ago, Farrar said:

Rather than get a tutor, I'd just enroll him in outside courses with a teacher for math and science.

I wasn’t thinking of it as either/or.  Right now he takes math in a class with a teacher, and then gets extra homework support from the tutor.  So, I was thinking we’d do the same thing except the class would be online.

The tutor is someone really important to both my kids.  He was the stable person in their life when everything fell apart.  
 

But I wasn’t thinking of him as a replacement for class.  I was assuming that a homeschooled kid with a parent at home who takes an online class has a parent who is alongside them, and that he would take that role. 

4 hours ago, Farrar said:

There are a ton of options for pre-calculus and physics, which it seems like would be the two courses he'd be in. 

 

Would you do precalc for a kid who won’t do calculus?  My goal would be to prepare him to take whatever DE classes would mean he doesn’t need more math when he gets to a 4 year school.  
 

He didn’t take science this year, so he’ll just have biology going into 11th.  My thought was to do bio (10th), chemistry (11th), and then some kind of “physics for poets” class DE that will transfer for 12th.  Would bio, physics and then something else DE make more sense? 

4 hours ago, Farrar said:

The load you're talking about at the community college is heavy. In particular, those music theory classes are sometimes absolute killers. I've seen them take down super academic overachievers who love music. And three classes, plus ensemble, is just a lot to have on top of other academic requirements. So I'd consider cutting that down a notch.

OK, maybe we can cut one from the first semester, and then see how that goes before making second semester choices.  

Edited June 26, 2023 by BandH

[Drama Llama]

@Farrar do you think BlueTent would work for him or is it too rigorous?  
 

What about US Gov.  Is there a good provider for that if he did it at home? 

Edited June 26, 2023 by BandH

[Penelope]

49 minutes ago, BandH said:

Would you do precalc for a kid who won’t do calculus?  My goal would be to prepare him to take whatever DE classes would mean he doesn’t need more math when he gets to a 4 year school.  

Many majors require some form of college algebra or precalculus. Which class and what it’s called may vary at different institutions. Some also might require a statistics class of some kind, even if not requiring calculus. Some business majors might need other sorts of math classes. 
 

So you’d need to look at potential majors in potential schools to decide.

[Drama Llama]

11 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Many majors require some form of college algebra or precalculus. Which class and what it’s called may vary at different institutions. Some also might require a statistics class of some kind, even if not requiring calculus. Some business majors might need other sorts of math classes. 
 

So you’d need to look at potential majors in potential schools to decide.

He is pretty clear about wanting music Ed or music therapy.  I think if he did change he’d pick something like music performance or special ed.  I just don’t see calculus in his future.

[Penelope]

11 minutes ago, BandH said:

He is pretty clear about wanting music Ed or music therapy.  I think if he did change he’d pick something like music performance or special ed.  I just don’t see calculus in his future.

What I mean is that his major may still require a math class as part of core requirements, even though it isn’t calculus. You were asking about why to take precalculus in high school, but also said you wanted him to be able to DE out of his college math requirement. Precalculus or some version of it with a different name is typically the lowest math course that will satisfy a math requirement in college. Just because one takes a course titled Precalculus doesn’t mean Calculus always follows. Precalculus probably isn’t the most accurate title for what this course is.  Maybe the college of education at the colleges you are looking at is different, ymmv.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Penelope

[Eos]

3 hours ago, BandH said:

 I think he’ll still need 4 years in most BM programs.  But theoretically, spending more time on music will help him in the audition process so he will have more options.

If he wants a BM, that might change your whole approach.  As you probably know, the audition is the most significant part of admissions.  Homeschooling high school or even just the rest of it could be your and his best move to make time for audition repertoire.  Is his private teacher one who has gotten kids into auditioned college/conservatory programs?  

[Drama Llama]

25 minutes ago, Eos said:

If he wants a BM, that might change your whole approach.  As you probably know, the audition is the most significant part of admissions.  Homeschooling high school or even just the rest of it could be your and his best move to make time for audition repertoire.  Is his private teacher one who has gotten kids into auditioned college/conservatory programs?  

His preference would be a BM in general music ed or music therapy with jazz voice as his performance focus.  He is trying a new private voice teacher this summer.  There are probably some BA or BS music ed programs he'd consider, but they're still auditioned based.  

Increasing the amount of time he has for music is one reason I'm looking into moving him.  

[Farrar]

I would not do Blue Tent for the situation you're describing. I would look at other providers... US Government is solid at Aim. Not too much. Relatively middle of the road content politically speaking (teacher is personally conservative but presentation is neutral and my liberal clients have mostly been pleased with him, which I think is a sign of genuine neutrality). Aim might be a good provider for some of these in general, but there are others out there that you should consider. Not sure if you want Christian or secular, but there are plenty of options.

Yes, chemistry would be fine. Just any physical science. I do think chem would be better. Senior year could be anything. Another bio, environmental, physics for poets (Online G3's course is sort of in that vein), astronomy, whatever. And yes, I'd have a kid do pre-calc even if they were unlikely to ever take calc. It's just the next math in the sequence. Ignore the "pre" element. It's just the name. It doesn't imply anything, lol. Alternatively, he could do College Algebra, which is sort of like Algebra 2.5 at most colleges, so he'd be well prepared and it would cap him off and he could do stats his senior year. It would split your kids up for math. They obviously have very different needs.

[Drama Llama]

25 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I would not do Blue Tent for the situation you're describing. I would look at other providers... US Government is solid at Aim. Not too much. Relatively middle of the road content politically speaking (teacher is personally conservative but presentation is neutral and my liberal clients have mostly been pleased with him, which I think is a sign of genuine neutrality). Aim might be a good provider for some of these in general, but there are others out there that you should consider. Not sure if you want Christian or secular, but there are plenty of options.

I think you and I are pretty similar politically, based on posts I've read.  I prefer to keep religion and school separate, so would prefer secular providers.  

25 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Yes, chemistry would be fine. Just any physical science. I do think chem would be better. Senior year could be anything. Another bio, environmental, physics for poets (Online G3's course is sort of in that vein), astronomy, whatever. And yes, I'd have a kid do pre-calc even if they were unlikely to ever take calc. It's just the next math in the sequence. Ignore the "pre" element. It's just the name. It doesn't imply anything, lol. Alternatively, he could do College Algebra, which is sort of like Algebra 2.5 at most colleges, so he'd be well prepared and it would cap him off and he could do stats his senior year. It would split your kids up for math. They obviously have very different needs.

Ideally, I think he'd start with a couple academic courses in his areas of strength, and then next year take maybe a semester of math and a semester of science at CC, so that those credits transfer.  He's getting a lot of support with math now.  He's at a school with small classes.  He gets tutoring at least twice a week.  He makes use of the math lab at school.  He's doing OK with that support, but the fact that college classes move twice as fast worries me.  I'd rather have him do another year at home, at a high school pace, and then take something where he repeats the same content at the CC. Then he can go off to college and not have to worry about taking math there.  

Is there a high school option that covers the same things as college algebra?  Something a little slower than precalc?  

My kids are obviously very different mathematicians.  But what has worked so far for my youngest is to have math classes that he can breeze through and then lots of freedom to choose what and how much math he does beyond that.  

 

[Farrar]

Just take a lighter precalc. Something more like Mr. D's or even Teaching Textbooks.

Since you want secular, look at all the bigger secular providers. Aim Academy, Taylor Made Science, Online G3, etc. etc. etc. WTMA and CLRC are also secular, but they emphasize humanities and lots of output in ways that doesn't seem right for either of your kids or your goals.

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, Farrar said:

Just take a lighter precalc. Something more like Mr. D's or even Teaching Textbooks.

Since you want secular, look at all the bigger secular providers. Aim Academy, Taylor Made Science, Online G3, etc. etc. etc. WTMA and CLRC are also secular, but they emphasize humanities and lots of output in ways that doesn't seem right for either of your kids or your goals.

For my other kid, are Blue Tent and PA Homeschoolers secular?  You think they are too challenging for this guy right?  Also what about Clover Valley?  Is that secular?  Is it a potential fit for either kid?

[Miss Tick]

The CC likely also offers College Algebra and whatever they would call Pre-College Algebra. Not sure if classes there would be any more convenient.

[Drama Llama]

59 minutes ago, Miss Tick said:

The CC likely also offers College Algebra and whatever they would call Pre-College Algebra. Not sure if classes there would be any more convenient.

I don't think that he should take math the first year in CC.  I think he should start with the things that come naturally to him, which would be English and Music.  Also, he can't just do music without other people, so doing that at CC first makes sense to me. 

Our CC doesn't allow you to take the remedial level classes that come before college algebra unless you're over 18 or have a HS diploma.  

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, BandH said:

For my other kid, are Blue Tent and PA Homeschoolers secular?  You think they are too challenging for this guy right?  Also what about Clover Valley?  Is that secular?  Is it a potential fit for either kid?

Blue Tent is 100% secular. PA Homeschoolers... is mostly secular. It depends on the individual teacher. Most are mostly secular. Clover Valley is totally secular. I would say it sounds like your younger is more academic in interests and like those might be good fit providers for him. Just not your older. But even more academic kids need less academic courses sometimes too. It just all depends.

[Drama Llama]

So, thinking across 4 years, can someone tell me what they consider “enough” on the transcript?  I think he is probably aiming for a B.M. in music ed and/or therapy from either a non-flagship state school (e.g. Slippery Rock or Western Michigan) or a less competitive private with an attached music school like Loyola N.O. or Shenandoah.  Assume he will have plenty of music on his transcript.

Our public schools require:

4 English

4 math

3 social studies (World, US History, US Gov)

3 science (life, physical, Earth/space)

2 World Language

1 Fine or Performing Art

1 PE 

1 Health

1 Tech

Does that sound reasonable? If so, what can I count as health and tech?  He will have Red Cross Lifeguarding, and Water Safety Instructor, and Driver’s Ed. Can I add some kind of homemade nutrition and a refresher on sex ed, and award a credit?

For tech, could he do a sound engineering/audio tech kind of class?  That seems like it would be practical. If he takes a no credit class and then combine it with some volunteer work related to sound, would that be enough? 

Or should he do something more formal, or skip those two altogether?  His private school doesn’t require either.  

Are there things beside music that we should consider adding to the list above?  My two thoughts would be:

Psychology at the community college?  This seems like a course that would transfer and be useful.

Literature?  The community college English is just writing and it seems like HS students should read some books.  If he and I came up with a list to read together and talk about could I put a half credit of lit on the transcript each year?  Or is that not enough?  I could also just make him read and talk about some books and not put them on the transcript.

Edited June 27, 2023 by BandH
Forgot a credit

[Terabith]

I assume he did cpr as part of lifeguarding?  I think your plan for health is completely legitimate.  
 

I don’t think tech is necessarily necessary for a credit.  He will have a lot of music and athletics.  
 

Kids should read books in high school but my kids had at least one year where they read very little and focused on writing.  

[Drama Llama]

34 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I assume he did cpr as part of lifeguarding?  I think your plan for health is completely legitimate.  
 

I don’t think tech is necessarily necessary for a credit.  He will have a lot of music and athletics.  
 

Kids should read books in high school but my kids had at least one year where they read very little and focused on writing.  

Yes, and I think he'll need to get recertified before graduation.  

I just want a few books!  How many books do you think makes a half credit?  

[Terabith]

Well, not that I’m recommending this, but my 11th grader read The Crucible and some short stories.  I am pretty sure that was the sum total of literature read.  I think 4-6 books is pretty reasonable.  

[Drama Llama]

3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Well, not that I’m recommending this, but my 11th grader read The Crucible and some short stories.  I am pretty sure that was the sum total of literature read.  I think 4-6 books is pretty reasonable.  

I was thinking I could look at the book lists from @Farrar's GPS curriculum.  He likes learning about other cultures, and history. 

[AmandaVT]

On 6/26/2023 at 4:48 PM, BandH said:

@Farrar do you think BlueTent would work for him or is it too rigorous?  
 

What about US Gov.  Is there a good provider for that if he did it at home? 

WTMA has a US Government class with Mr. Caro for the fall. He's currently my son's all-time favorite teacher there. May be worth a look!

[kiwik]

On 6/27/2023 at 5:53 AM, Vida Winter said:

I would be extremely reluctant to pull your oldest out of school since he is already halfway through. In our family, it was all or nothing - two kids were homeschooled all the way through and one went from homeschooling to public school starting in 8th grade. The differences we found when applying for scholarships were significant. Most academic scholarship opportunities in our state were simply not available to homeschoolers. We had to shoot for high ACT/SAT scores to obtain merit money. If you are thinking of community college credits, the high school probably has an arrangement that can allow your son to take these at school.

Another significant consideration would be the change from a brick-and-mortar school to homeschool. Most of us had many years of getting used to this when our kids were young and had a lot of time to ease into it. The fact that you work full-time would be a deal-breaker for me. I think it's too much to ask of kids to manage that much on their own. It was hard to find the time to do everything we needed to and I did not work outside the home.

I know that brick-and-mortar school has its disadvantages and there may be other issues that you have not mentioned. I just don't want to make it seem like homeschooling is easy-breezy in high school -- it really takes a lot of time and effort on the part of parents and students.

Yes.  My 16 year old came home last year and is finding it harder to self direct than his 14 year old brother who has been home 6 years.  And in NZ the system is a lot more flexible in that he can return for the last year without problems provided he has maintained a suitable level and still pass university entrance and go on as if he was at high school all the way.  Plus he can get his qualifications with a combination of methods at home.  On the down side I can’t graduate him or write a transcript, he has to sit nation wide assessments.

[Dmmetler]

If he's likely to apply to close state public schools for Mued/MT, there should be a clear transfer path and he can pick classes that would tick high school boxes and college ones as well. Music won't transfer, but there's a core of classes that should, and most CC's will have a lot of classes needed for those majors inside psych, child development, or nursing degrees.  (I want to say that in TN a psych AA would be near 100% for MT and a CDA for K-12 MuED). 

 

Does the CC have music ensembles he can audition for? 

 

On English, what I did when L was doing DE was to do a class at the college one semester, and at home the other. So English comp 1 and 2 semesters got a lit class at home, African-American Lit and Literature of the Diaspora got writing at home.  We did the same in math, so a typical semester would have 3-4 CC classes and either math or English at home, plus any other stuff. 

 

And, finally....is homeschooling something that is likely to get pushback? At least here, courts tend to be much more supportive of having kids in a traditional school. 

[Dmmetler]

Online G3's US government was really good when L did it. 

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

If he's likely to apply to close state public schools for Mued/MT, there should be a clear transfer path and he can pick classes that would tick high school boxes and college ones as well. Music won't transfer, but there's a core of classes that should, and most CC's will have a lot of classes needed for those majors inside psych, child development, or nursing degrees.  (I want to say that in TN a psych AA would be near 100% for MT and a CDA for K-12 MuED). 

 

Does the CC have music ensembles he can audition for? 

 

On English, what I did when L was doing DE was to do a class at the college one semester, and at home the other. So English comp 1 and 2 semesters got a lit class at home, African-American Lit and Literature of the Diaspora got writing at home.  We did the same in math, so a typical semester would have 3-4 CC classes and either math or English at home, plus any other stuff. 

 

And, finally....is homeschooling something that is likely to get pushback? At least here, courts tend to be much more supportive of having kids in a traditional school. 

I am pretty sure this is going to end up being a nice thought experiment that doesn’t happen.  I think for my oldest it could be great, but I don’t think it’s right for my youngest, and I don’t think oldest wants it without his brother.

At this point, whatever we do I think we need to problem solve how to get more music for him.  I don’t care if it transfers, but time is an issue at this point.  I think CC could do that but not if he attempted a full course load for a non-music degree.