I want to run away.

[fraidycat]

You need to go now more than ever. 

[KSera]

2 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

She's just not doing well at all. She has her driver's exam Thursday and I'm so nervous about her passing. She really needs to drive not just to help me but she needs the confidence and independence for her heart. She does not need a failure right now.

I just wanted to offer commiseration on this, because while people are right that the world will not end if she doesn't pass this test, I've so been where you are with a struggling kid who really, really needs a win and not yet another loss. It's easy to say it's no big deal and happens to everyone sometimes, but the stakes are different with a kid who is really hovering on the edge. I empathize with the stress of that. If the test goes well and/or she's doing fine by a couple days after, could you then take that opportunity for a night away with your dh?

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

Here we are again.

I was researching weekend getaways for my dh and I. We have our 25th wedding anniversary coming up and I wanted to do something special. My ds yelled mom every 5 minutes for 2 hours, needing help with his assignment. Most of the time, the conversation went like this. "What do you needhelp with?"

"I don;t know what to do next."

" Look at the instructions. The next step says to...."

"Oh. Okay. I hate this project."

Repeat over and over again for 2 hours. 

First, hugs. I am sorry. I echo what @KSera says. 

He's 14 and doing an online public option, right? Did you sign anything saying you would be at elbow or home during school hours at all times? If not, I would, quite frankly, plan to be out of the house every day for some reason for 1-2 hours (could be shorter at first), and I would give him guidelines for what to do if he had a "problem" like this while I was gone. I would make my help contingent on his following those steps every single time before I would offer any help at all. You can do this while you are at home too, but it will be more painful for you. He might need in between steps before you can get out of the house also. If he is neurotypical, I recommend leaving the premises for predictable intervals after a couple of days of warming him up to the strategies. If he can't handle that, then I would question if he is neurotypical. 

How it looks (eventually)...so, he calls for you. You have given him a list of, say, 1-3 strategies and made sure he knows how to do those things. You ask him if he used those strategies. If yes, you ask what the results are and offer help. If he has not, you remind him of the strategies and make yourself a bit scarce, even if it's in the home (in the shower and can't hear him; mowing the lawn; checking on a cow on the back forty, etc.). Wash, rinse, repeat. Expect an extinction burst. You can google that term if you don't know what it means, but the first time I heard the term, I felt freed to find out there was a word for what I had been seeing for many years. 

You can modify this general idea to make it an appropriate reach for your son--I don't know him, obviously. Oh, another option is to go someplace public. I did that a LOT with my kids. The library is great for this--internet access, check. Witnesses that will look askance at annoying behavior and realize he's old enough to rein it in to some extent, check. A safe place to "disappear" while being nearby, check.

My kids know that I have my non-retaliatory ways to help them make up for this behavior and avoid it if possible--it's a motivator to try the strategies ("I was going to work on laundry today, but I had to spend a lot of extra time helping you use your strategies; since the laundry still needs to be done, you will have to help me do it this evening instead of xyz fun thing you were planning to do"). They would also be to be caught doing this (non-neurotypical 2e boys, one of whom is still 14 and is in some ways "behind" in maturity and in some ways ahead; I am told to consider him more like 11 for some things, especially executive functioning). My 14 y.o. would be distracted, etc., but he'd eventually come to me in frustration and say he's distracted and his meds aren't helping enough, or he's anxious, or whatever. He'd say he's tired or hates the assignment and would like some help structuring his work, but he would not bug me every five minutes for hours. My older son would definitely have behaved this way, but not really much past the first year or two of homeschooling (started in 3rd grade), and the strategies I just mentioned are what helped fix this. He had other issues at play that came up over time that were not solved, but he had better ways to show what the problem was by then. Additionally, the negative behaviors were, by then, restricted to the times that the problem (a language issue) was manifesting vs. all the time.

I don't mean to be harsh, but I realize this is kind of blunt. It's hard.

I also just told my 14 y.o. the gist of the exchange (since he doesn't know you), and he said that he thinks it sounds like kids he knows who have anxiety (and he has anxiety himself). He's pretty intuitive about people, FWIW, and he makes a point of befriending kids who have learning issues, etc., so he has seen a lot of interesting things from his peers. If it's anxiety, in addition to getting some anxiety-specific help, I would still do the same thing to stop the behavior, but I would be watching carefully for clues that what I am asking is "too much" in some way--I would want to build up a feeling of confidence and capability ("I had a problem while mom was busy, and I was able to collect myself and try my strategies"). The point isn't that school goes well; the point is that the strategies were used. If that's not enough to solve the school issue, then more things need to be implemented that address the school issue (in our case, language therapy), but using a strategy is a skill that is important--in all of life, if you go to your boss with a problem, most of them will hope to hear that you tried at least one thing to solve that problem before you showed up. 

Quote

Last night, dd17 had yet another meltdown. If she and her therapist can't make progress by the end of September, I'm taking her to the dr to see about SSRIs. She's just not doing well at all. She has her driver's exam Thursday and I'm so nervous about her passing. She really needs to drive not just to help me but she needs the confidence and independence for her heart. She does not need a failure right now. I'm not telling her that, because she gets nervous enough driving.

I think you can still go away, but maybe not this weekend? 

I had to take my road test multiple times and renew my temps, and I didn't even attempt to drive until I was 17. I wasn't a bad driver, but we had stern state police people who clearly drew the short straw for duty that day administering the test on a sketchy course that wasn't clearly marked, and they often gave pretty sketchy directions about what they wanted. Had I lived in a less rural area, I would've really delayed driving. I was not confident at all.

Do you have family friends your kids could stay with while you are gone that understand their issues? 

I really think that you need to go, and I say that knowing that I couldn't leave my kids with people for years. If you have good backup, I would make sure she's okay this weekend and then plan something soon. Or, if it's more reassuring, plan something for when she's been on an SSRI for a couple of weeks. If it has to be "really soon" to count for anniversary in your mind, I can't help with the disappointment directly (we don't do anything "on time" due to DH's job, and we regularly disappoint people who still think it's possible for that to be different and insist on doing "timely" things), but being able to put it off and still have fun is a way to model flexibility for the kids (I am trying to find a positive way for you to spin this for yourself if you are disappointed about timing). 

[KungFuPanda]

As someone who keeps trying to leave town, and keeps giving up and closing lodging windows, I feel you and understand your frustration. 

[katilac]

On 8/23/2022 at 10:49 AM, fairfarmhand said:

 "What do you needhelp with?"

"I don;t know what to do next."

" Look at the instructions. The next step says to...."

"Oh. Okay. I hate this project."

Repeat over and over again for 2 hours. 

 Might he do better if you sat with him from the get-go? 

I had one kid who needed someone in the general vicinity for a fair number of classes, even if I wasn't helping per se. 

When she was little, I joked that she needed someone there to immediately admire every time she made a particularly beautiful Q. 

When she was in high school, she needed someone there to immediately hear any interesting science facts, also occasionally to admire a particularly beautiful Q. 

At both ages, she needed someone there so she could immediately point out mistakes or stupidities in the directions, so she could release the annoyance and move on, lol. 

To me, it was easier to plan to be there as needed, either engaging in the material with her or working side-by-side on different things. 

She didn't try to get out of work, but she did work better and more quickly if someone was with her. And, yes, she would have absolutely had that in a typical classroom setting, bc you are surrounded by people and there is a lot of incidental talking. It's very easy to show a classmate your beautiful Q, ask if they saw the gross picture in the science book, or get a reminder of what page you're on again. And the teacher is there to keep kids on task, even when they are doing independent work. 

You probably don't want to hear this, but yes, it lasted all the way through high school. She did great in college, the GPA only got dinged a bit when Covid hit and, yep, she was expected to work remotely, by herself. 

On 8/23/2022 at 4:14 PM, kbutton said:

If he is neurotypical, I recommend leaving the premises for predictable intervals after a couple of days of warming him up to the strategies. If he can't handle that, then I would question if he is neurotypical. 

That's a big leap. Many neurotypical kids and teens do not work well alone and on their own for very long.  

Source: have taught and tutored many teens, both neurotypical and neurodiverse. In a typical classroom setting, teens are not working alone. Even when expected to work 'on their own,' they are surrounded by peers working on the same assignment, and there is a teacher in the room, keeping them on task. There is a good amount of both silent and verbal communication with peers. This can be very important.  

It is a strong personality trait for many people. It's why kids go to each other's houses to do homework together, even when it's different homework, and that's been going on forever. 

The pandemic really highlighted that some people work this way and others don't. Take a sample group of adults, none of whom require someone in their physical vicinity to get their work done. Send them all home from the office to work remotely. Some of them will be delighted, some of them will be dismayed. Some of them will be way more productive, and some of them will find it extremely difficult to stay on task. 

 

 

[kbutton]

9 hours ago, katilac said:

That's a big leap.

The fact that neurotypical kids do this as well doesn't mean that it isn't also a big red flag for other issues, whether it's anxiety, ADHD, a language problem, etc. 

What you are describing with your daughter sounds different to me than what the OP is saying, but I may have built a different impression from past posts than what you are seeing from the same posts. 

[fairfarmhand]

On 8/23/2022 at 4:14 PM, kbutton said:

First, hugs. I am sorry. I echo what @KSera says. 

He's 14 and doing an online public option, right? Did you sign anything saying you would be at elbow or home during school hours at all times? If not, I would, quite frankly, plan to be out of the house every day for some reason for 1-2 hours (could be shorter at first), and I would give him guidelines for what to do if he had a "problem" like this while I was gone. I would make my help contingent on his following those steps every single time before I would offer any help at all. You can do this while you are at home too, but it will be more painful for you. He might need in between steps before you can get out of the house also. If he is neurotypical, I recommend leaving the premises for predictable intervals after a couple of days of warming him up to the strategies. If he can't handle that, then I would question if he is neurotypical. 

How it looks (eventually)...so, he calls for you. You have given him a list of, say, 1-3 strategies and made sure he knows how to do those things. You ask him if he used those strategies. If yes, you ask what the results are and offer help. If he has not, you remind him of the strategies and make yourself a bit scarce, even if it's in the home (in the shower and can't hear him; mowing the lawn; checking on a cow on the back forty, etc.). Wash, rinse, repeat. Expect an extinction burst. You can google that term if you don't know what it means, but the first time I heard the term, I felt freed to find out there was a word for what I had been seeing for many years. 

You can modify this general idea to make it an appropriate reach for your son--I don't know him, obviously. Oh, another option is to go someplace public. I did that a LOT with my kids. The library is great for this--internet access, check. Witnesses that will look askance at annoying behavior and realize he's old enough to rein it in to some extent, check. A safe place to "disappear" while being nearby, check.

My kids know that I have my non-retaliatory ways to help them make up for this behavior and avoid it if possible--it's a motivator to try the strategies ("I was going to work on laundry today, but I had to spend a lot of extra time helping you use your strategies; since the laundry still needs to be done, you will have to help me do it this evening instead of xyz fun thing you were planning to do"). They would also be to be caught doing this (non-neurotypical 2e boys, one of whom is still 14 and is in some ways "behind" in maturity and in some ways ahead; I am told to consider him more like 11 for some things, especially executive functioning). My 14 y.o. would be distracted, etc., but he'd eventually come to me in frustration and say he's distracted and his meds aren't helping enough, or he's anxious, or whatever. He'd say he's tired or hates the assignment and would like some help structuring his work, but he would not bug me every five minutes for hours. My older son would definitely have behaved this way, but not really much past the first year or two of homeschooling (started in 3rd grade), and the strategies I just mentioned are what helped fix this. He had other issues at play that came up over time that were not solved, but he had better ways to show what the problem was by then. Additionally, the negative behaviors were, by then, restricted to the times that the problem (a language issue) was manifesting vs. all the time.

I don't mean to be harsh, but I realize this is kind of blunt. It's hard.

I also just told my 14 y.o. the gist of the exchange (since he doesn't know you), and he said that he thinks it sounds like kids he knows who have anxiety (and he has anxiety himself). He's pretty intuitive about people, FWIW, and he makes a point of befriending kids who have learning issues, etc., so he has seen a lot of interesting things from his peers. If it's anxiety, in addition to getting some anxiety-specific help, I would still do the same thing to stop the behavior, but I would be watching carefully for clues that what I am asking is "too much" in some way--I would want to build up a feeling of confidence and capability ("I had a problem while mom was busy, and I was able to collect myself and try my strategies"). The point isn't that school goes well; the point is that the strategies were used. If that's not enough to solve the school issue, then more things need to be implemented that address the school issue (in our case, language therapy), but using a strategy is a skill that is important--in all of life, if you go to your boss with a problem, most of them will hope to hear that you tried at least one thing to solve that problem before you showed up. 

I think you can still go away, but maybe not this weekend? 

I had to take my road test multiple times and renew my temps, and I didn't even attempt to drive until I was 17. I wasn't a bad driver, but we had stern state police people who clearly drew the short straw for duty that day administering the test on a sketchy course that wasn't clearly marked, and they often gave pretty sketchy directions about what they wanted. Had I lived in a less rural area, I would've really delayed driving. I was not confident at all.

Do you have family friends your kids could stay with while you are gone that understand their issues? 

I really think that you need to go, and I say that knowing that I couldn't leave my kids with people for years. If you have good backup, I would make sure she's okay this weekend and then plan something soon. Or, if it's more reassuring, plan something for when she's been on an SSRI for a couple of weeks. If it has to be "really soon" to count for anniversary in your mind, I can't help with the disappointment directly (we don't do anything "on time" due to DH's job, and we regularly disappoint people who still think it's possible for that to be different and insist on doing "timely" things), but being able to put it off and still have fun is a way to model flexibility for the kids (I am trying to find a positive way for you to spin this for yourself if you are disappointed about timing). 

This is really helpful. Thank you.

And yes, there is some low level anxiety going on with  my boy. I think once he gets the hang of the online format he will be off and do well. He's doing great in his math classess where the assignments are quite straightforward. The class he's struggling with is less so and he overthinks the assignments. 

Today is the day for my dd's driving test. I'm truly hoping she succeeds. I know it's not the end of the world if she doesn't but I do want her to make some progress on her goals. She's struggling with the idea that some goals take a long time and it's hard to see progress when you're in the pits. 

I have adult children. My 20 yo lives at home and I have a married dd with an infant. So theoretically we should be able to do this. However, the middle dd really has a hard time getting along with all of her siblings. So it might be better to have her driving before we go anywhere so her siblings are not obligated to drive around an irritable, hard to handle, moody teen.

We'll see. Anniversay isn't until Sept 13, and I could go along with a postponed trip. However, we're outdoorsy people and I'd love to get some hiking in before mud season starts in November. (Middle TN has four seasons, Spring Summer, Fall and Mud.)

Edited August 25, 2022 by fairfarmhand

[kbutton]

12 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

The class he's struggling with is less so and he overthinks the assignments. 

I am glad it's isolated to a specific class. Poor kid! Overthinking is easy to do, and some teachers are great at being ambiguous.

12 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

So it might be better to have her driving before we go anywhere so her siblings are not obligated to drive around an irritable, hard to handle, moody teen.

Prayers that she does well! That does complicate getting out of town, and I hope it all works out. Does she have a friend's family she could stay with? I don't know if that's feasible, but I know sometimes older kids stay with friends in these situations. It's a treat for the kids vs. looking like babysitting. Sometimes it's just practical or safer without it being a maturity issue in any way. ***ETA: Oops, already suggested that. If not, I wonder if there could be some planning involved that would involve rides disguised as fun, planned time with friends. 

12 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

(Middle TN has four seasons, Spring Summer, Fall and Mud.)

That is consistent with what I've heard from friends, lol! I hope you can get away while the weather is lovely.

**ETA: I hope that whatever happens with the testing today, a clear plan will emerge. Sometimes it's easier to see what to do after the debris has settled a bit, so to speak. The pressure just builds up in the waiting stage.

Edited August 25, 2022 by kbutton

[KSera]

7 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

Today is the day for my dd's driving test

How did it go?

[fairfarmhand]

8 minutes ago, KSera said:

How did it go?

SHE PASSED!  Im so very thankful and relieved. Whew. 
 

 

[KSera]

8 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

SHE PASSED!  Im so very thankful and relieved. Whew. 
 

 

🎉🎉 I’m so glad to hear!! That is wonderful news 😊. 

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

SHE PASSED!  Im so very thankful and relieved. Whew. 
 

 

Yay!!! Party time!

[Kassia]

2 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

SHE PASSED!  Im so very thankful and relieved. Whew. 
 

 

Yay!  Definitely party time.

[scholastica]

Now take that trip!!