Science options between Biology and Chemistry for a potential STEM kid?

[ByGrace3]

Ds is in Biology at Excelsior . . . it is going ok. It is not super rigorous and he has a low A. He is struggling through geometry though when he works with a tutor he gets it. He is a pretty good writer, a decent student, a smart kid. He struggles with executive functioning issues, APD, and undiagnosed ADHD inattentive, SPD and anxiety (both undiagnosed). He is holding steady but not super great. 

I am seeing some decent strides lately in maturity. He has always been interested in robotics and tech and engineering. I know chemistry in a big class. I am thinking it might be a good idea to do something a little more with something he is more interested in for next year and postpone chemistry until 11th grade, still allowing him to do physics for 12th. He would then have another year to mature. 

What are the pitfalls of this plan? He would take chemistry concurrently with pre-calc. Would this plan work? He doesn't know what he wants to do in the future but he talks about engineering as a possibility. 

If this plan would work, what are our options? 

[MamaSprout]

I would look at algebra-based physics options. It would give him a good foundation for chemistry. 

[ByGrace3]

19 minutes ago, MamaSprout said:

I would look at algebra-based physics options. It would give him a good foundation for chemistry. 

any suggestions? and he could take it concurrent with Algebra 2?

ETA: Schole has an "Introductory Physics" course, would this be a good option?

Edited February 22, 2022 by ByGrace3

[Farrar]

He could do the Clover Creek Physics course. I actually think that would be a great option. That way, he could do chemistry in 11th and a second level physics course like AP 1/2 in 12th or an AP chem or just some good dual enrollment.

There are other options for an algebra based physics - Taylor Made has one for example. But I'd do the Clover Creek course. And be sure to enroll on day one. It will fill.

There are other options... he could do a second level bio course - but most of them are more intensive and it sounds like he's not interested in bio. He could do environmental or earth science, but... at the regular level they won't be great.

[MamaSprout]

1 hour ago, ByGrace3 said:

any suggestions? and he could take it concurrent with Algebra 2?

ETA: Schole has an "Introductory Physics" course, would this be a good option?

We regret that we didn't take the Clover Creek physics that year. We were on the waitlist but dd had only done one online course to that point, and it had been a bad experience.

We ended up trying the Novare book with a friend, but it didn't work for my dd. We went with the GPB video course. It was cheap and fine and dd had a good lab partner. 

[cintinative]

I wasn't sure if people would suggest algebra-based physics.  Since they have, I can comment on Derek Owens' since my two boys are both taking the class.  It is a self-paced class. You can choose self-graded or they can grade it.

My oldest is doing fine. He's neurotypical (possibly gifted) and taking the course concurrently with Algebra II. 

My youngest really, really struggled until I stepped in and started watching the videos with him. He is 14.5 and has ADHD-inattentive, gifted, and has a significant processing issue. It was too much for him EF skills wise to keep up with a self-paced class, especially one that is so algebra heavy. We did finish the full Algebra I prior to the course (Dolciani) but he took a long time to go through Algebra so it was not super easy for him. I think the combination of the math and the nature of the self-paced course (and his processing issue) made it challenging. He was spending weeks on one week of material in physics.  Finally I started watching all the videos with him, and would stop to explain things if he wasn't quite getting it, and we did the practice problems together.  Then the pacing got to be much more on schedule.  My only comment on that is there is no time built in to their "proposed" schedule for studying for regular tests--however I find it evens out as some "weeks" take three days and the weeks with tests need a couple days or more for study time.  

YMMV but I think if I had watched all the videos my oldest would have benefited as well. There were a couple of spots where he didn't understand something, and I emailed the DO folks and they sent over an explanation, and he still wasn't 100%.  I wish I had the understanding to help him but my youngest is literally about 15 weeks behind him. 

One of the reasons we chose DO was because my kids already have two other live online classes. Otherwise, I had signed up for the Clover Creek mailing list and was going to do that.  I have heard SO many good things about that class, both on here and my IRL friends.  

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by cintinative

[ByGrace3]

What makes Clover Creek Physics stand out?

Also, my ds is most likely headed the NCAA route, would clover creek or Novare have an obstacles in getting approved?

[Arcadia]

For chemistry, my DS16 thrive in a lab heavy, less reading chem class he took in summer at a private school. DS17 took Clover Creek Physics and enjoyed the labs as well as the weekly online session. No idea about NCAA.

[cintinative]

55 minutes ago, ByGrace3 said:

What makes Clover Creek Physics stand out?

Also, my ds is most likely headed the NCAA route, would clover creek or Novare have an obstacles in getting approved?

I know nothing about NCAA, so I can't help there.

I think for me what is amazing about Clover Creek Physics is that I know people with STEM students and people with non-STEM oriented students and they all liked it.  Obviously we haven't taken it so I can't speak from personal experience, but among two IRL friends, one's daughter went on to study STEM in college and the other went on to study Spanish/double major and they both really liked the class and learned a lot.  I remember people on here saying similar things, and that it was the class that made their dc love physics.

ETA; the other thing I heard is that Clover Creek is great at communicating. My friend was telling me how detailed the lab supply lists were (including locations where to buy things) and how pretty much everything she had needed to know was there.  I suppose this should be standard practice, but any of us that have used any lab book know it is not.  😃

Edited February 22, 2022 by cintinative

[BusyMom5]

I dont have any advice on classes (I teach until DE), but I was in the same place you are, considering what to have a math-reluctant 10th grader take.  I ended up doing Earth Science (geology, space, and weather- Holt textbook) and it was the perfect choice.  We are now struggling through Chemistry in 11th,  and its still a hard class, but she has completed Algebra 2 and is a lot better at reading,  note-taking, and overall stamina for harder work.  I think next year she will DE Chem for majors (required for college degree).  I don't regret taking an easier class in 10th grade- it was actually easier than biology in 9th- because she needed the brain power to push through her math.  If I had pushed, it would have ended in tears and frustration.  There are no pitfalls to waiting until 11th!  Focus on those other study skills you say he's lacking in.

[TheAttachedMama]

I've had one chid take Clover Creek Physics and another take Derek Owen's Physics.  So I think I can compare.   I would say that Derek Owen's physics was more difficult.   Clover Creek physics was easier and MUCH more fun.  (But not EASY, they will be doing real physics with plenty of math.). 

[Lori D.]

On 2/22/2022 at 10:15 AM, ByGrace3 said:

...Also, my ds is most likely headed the NCAA route, would clover creek or Novare have an obstacles in getting approved?

When you say NCAA -- do you mean Division I or II? Those are the levels that have specific requirements as far as # of credits in specific subject areas AND what is accepted for accomplishing those credits.

If you are looking towards Division III, then there are NO NCAA regulations about high school credits.

If you DO need to follow NCAA regulations for Div. I or II, then you may want to contact NCAA and get info on exactly what they accept/don't accept.

From the Clover Creek website: "Although the spine text for the course is Paul Hewitt’s excellent Conceptual Physics: The High School Program (3rd edition, 1997), Clover Creek Physics is not solely conceptual in nature. The student will learn how to solve many types of algebra-based physics problems and will complete a variety of math and graph-based lab activities. Thus, the course should be labeled “Physics” on the student’s transcript."

However, NCAA may not accept a Conceptual Physics textbook as meeting their requirements, even though the course really is a full Physics course. So, important to contact NCAA in advance to find out what online course providers they do/don't accept.

If planning on Div. I or II, I strongly encourage you to look at the NCAA threads on PAGE 4 of the College Motherlode pinned at the top of the WTM College Board, and to start researching the NCAA homeschool information now -- once the student is in 9th grade, she/he has just 4 years to complete the required core courses -- and if your student completes a core course with materials that are not accepted by NCAA, then the student has to re-do, and will have limited time for completing the course in the way NCAA wants it done.

Here is the NCAA homeschool page.

One other thought is to consider going Division III. There are no NCAA regulations that way, and the student gets to be a "big fish in a little pond". While there are no sports scholarships awarded for Division III plays, a lot of colleges award scholarships of other types to entice athletes to their schools. 😉 It looks like from your signature that your DS plays tennis?

To see if it is worth shooting for Div. I or II for the scholarship $$, check out this webpage with statistics on your odds of making it on a Div. I team, what the average freshman admission stats are, cost of various schools, and what the average scholarship awards are for the various schools. 

Good luck!

Edited February 23, 2022 by Lori D.

[ByGrace3]

On 2/23/2022 at 1:36 PM, Lori D. said:

When you say NCAA -- do you mean Division I or II? Those are the levels that have specific requirements as far as # of credits in specific subject areas AND what is accepted for accomplishing those credits.

If you are looking towards Division III, then there are NO NCAA regulations about high school credits.

If you DO need to follow NCAA regulations for Div. I or II, then you may want to contact NCAA and get info on exactly what they accept/don't accept.

From the Clover Creek website: "Although the spine text for the course is Paul Hewitt’s excellent Conceptual Physics: The High School Program (3rd edition, 1997), Clover Creek Physics is not solely conceptual in nature. The student will learn how to solve many types of algebra-based physics problems and will complete a variety of math and graph-based lab activities. Thus, the course should be labeled “Physics” on the student’s transcript."

However, NCAA may not accept a Conceptual Physics textbook as meeting their requirements, even though the course really is a full Physics course. So, important to contact NCAA in advance to find out what online course providers they do/don't accept.

If planning on Div. I or II, I strongly encourage you to look at the NCAA threads on PAGE 4 of the College Motherlode pinned at the top of the WTM College Board, and to start researching the NCAA homeschool information now -- once the student is in 9th grade, she/he has just 4 years to complete the required core courses -- and if your student completes a core course with materials that are not accepted by NCAA, then the student has to re-do, and will have limited time for completing the course in the way NCAA wants it done.

Here is the NCAA homeschool page.

One other thought is to consider going Division III. There are no NCAA regulations that way, and the student gets to be a "big fish in a little pond". While there are no sports scholarships awarded for Division III plays, a lot of colleges award scholarships of other types to entice athletes to their schools. 😉 It looks like from your signature that your DS plays tennis?

To see if it is worth shooting for Div. I or II for the scholarship $$, check out this webpage with statistics on your odds of making it on a Div. I team, what the average freshman admission stats are, cost of various schools, and what the average scholarship awards are for the various schools. 

Good luck!

Thank you. I have no idea where he will end up...but I want to make sure no doors are closed because of me. I an pretty familiar with NCAA basic requirements, however it was the conceptual physics text I was unsure about. From what I have read, if it is a high school level text, it will be accepted. I am steering my ds towards D3 and NAIA but he is pretty set on shooting higher at this point...

[ByGrace3]

Just wanted to check back in and say thank you for all the recommendations! I ended up signing ds up for Clover Creek Physics course for next year. I think it will be a great course for him and waiting a year for chemistry seems to be the right choice. 

[Nam2001]

1 hour ago, ByGrace3 said:

Just wanted to check back in and say thank you for all the recommendations! I ended up signing ds up for Clover Creek Physics course for next year. I think it will be a great course for him and waiting a year for chemistry seems to be the right choice. 

Did you ever consider physics class at Schole? I’m trying to figure out our science path for high school and was considering starting with Schole and going all the way through. But I’m also considering biology at Excelsior and then moving to Clover Creek physics as you are doing. Schole’s Science classes are three days a week and while I see benefit in that, I’m not sure I’m willing to give up that much time.

[ByGrace3]

41 minutes ago, Nam2001 said:

Did you ever consider physics class at Schole? I’m trying to figure out our science path for high school and was considering starting with Schole and going all the way through. But I’m also considering biology at Excelsior and then moving to Clover Creek physics as you are doing. Schole’s Science classes are three days a week and while I see benefit in that, I’m not sure I’m willing to give up that much time.

I did consider it. However, the physics class had two options for next year -- the one that fit our schedule was already full when I looked at it last week and the other is late afternoon -- my kids do sports so that is not an option. 

Also, I heavily weighed the 3 day option -- some of the classes now have a MWR or MTR option which to me is better than the MWF (I don't want live classes on fridays). And part of me says 3 days a week is a lot, however, I think that would really depend on how much is required outside of class. If they are  in class for 4 hours/week and then still required tons of homework-- that would be too much, but if they are doing much of the work in class, that isn't too bad...

The schedule for Schole was super frustrating -- so many options are at 2 or 3 in the afternoon... who wants classes that late.  ugh.