High school math/science sequence ?

[teachermom2834]

My 8th grade dd, my last child at home, is going to attend a brick and mortar high school next year. We are currently evaluating our options and I'm researching course plans at various high schools. 

Our local public high school has two choices for 9th grade science/math. The regular track is physical science/algebra 1. The honors track is honors chemistry/honors geometry. Is this unusual? I admit I never considered what schools are doing. I was all in to homeschool (with outsourcing) for my three boys who have now graduated. I have always had in my head that a student had to have completed or be concurrently taking algebra 2. 

What do you think of an honors chemistry course that comes before a student has had any algebra 2? Does that seem unusual? Between my dh taking the lead on math/science and us outsourcing high school science and math I am not sure what topics in an honors chemistry class would require more than algebra 1. ?? 

My dd is in physical science/algebra 1 now as an 8th grader so she would be on the honors chemistry track. She is a sharp kid and good student but honors high school chemistry seems like a big jump from where she is now. So either I am underestimating her abilities, or she will really struggle, or this "honors chemistry" is a pretty wimpy class. I'm leaning big time toward the last one. But that is just my gut reaction. Oh and it is block scheduling so that course is completed in one semester. I'm skeptical.

But I'm not really in the position to evaluate the rigor or requirements of a high school chemistry class. So what do you smart and well informed people think? Is this a red flag regarding the rigor of this class if it is being taken by 9th graders with no algebra 2 experience? Completed in  one semester?  I'm going to ask dh this question when I see him (he was a math/science teacher 20 years ago). 

 

[Sneezyone]

That seems unusual to me. Our district offers freshmen algebra, geometry or algebra 2 for math (regular, honors, or adapted-full year) and earth science or biology (regular or honors) for science. I wouldn’t want my student doing chem here without algebra 2. All of the significant figures, moles work could be done before that but it’s sooooo much easier for DD doing it now, like solid A easy. We have block scheduling here too.  ETA: students here are encouraged to take regular or honors science before taking the AP version (which is one semester).

Edited November 2, 2021 by Sneezyone

[8filltheheart]

I think that is standard.  I equate alg 2 with advanced high school chem (basically AP chem).

[kokotg]

My 10th grader is taking WTM academy chemistry right now, and they just list algebra 1 as a pre-req (and he hasn't taken alg 2 yet and is doing well in it). It's not listed as an honors class, but it seems pretty rigorous. 

[EmilyGF]

I agree that Alg 1 for a Chem pre-req sounds about right. DS16's son had Alg 2 as a pre-req for AP Chem.

FWIW, I emailed with the head of the science department before DS16 went to high school to figure out about the school's science sequence, so you could try that. It's not perfect, but no option is. My email chain helped me figure out how to not pre-do what he'd be doing freshman year.

At my kids' school, as was the case at mine growing up, freshman science was sort of boring and simplistic, but once you finished it, you could take the more interesting classes. That said, we tried another school and it seemed like the classes never were going to get better as it appeared that the science teachers didn't know much science. But figuring that out required talking with science teachers.

Emily

[teachermom2834]

Thanks, all! Very helpful.

[Arcadia]

3 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

Is this a red flag regarding the rigor of this class if it is being taken by 9th graders with no algebra 2 experience? Completed in  one semester?  

Some high schools does half the year long subjects in the first semester and half in the second semester. Also DS15 took a summer intensive honors chem class with labs that was 36 hours long (6 weeks, 3hrs per class, twice weekly) and it was good prep for AP Chem. It all comes down to how the teacher uses the class time. 

[Alice Lamb]

As a former college chemistry professor, I would say that the necessary math for a high-school level chemistry course:

*Interpreting word problems

*Unit-conversions (see Beast Academy 5, but that's earlier than most programs)

* Setting up and solving problems with proportions (I tend to turn these into unit-conversion problems, but some texts use lots of proportions.)

* Understanding percentages thoroughly, including percent changes, so the student understands why there is  a subtraction in the numerator of a percent error, but not in the numerator of a percent yield.

*Exponents and scientific notation

* Using algebraic formula (for example PV = nRT): solve for any one missing quantity, re-arrange to isolate one variable

*Working with base 10 logarithms (knowing that 10^x and log are inverses, calculate with a calculator)  (This is used for the acid/base pH material.)

        If the instructor wants the students to use log(a) + log(b) = log (ab) or log (a) - log(b) = log(a/b) or a log (b) = log(b^a), he or she should teach it on the fly.  I have seen students in calculus 1 who somehow missed this point.

All of these except logs are pre-algebra or algebra 1 topics.  The key is that students need to be very good at them, so they can focus on the chemistry. I think the usual recommendation of algebra 2 as a pre-requisite is due to many students needing more fluency than they have after algebra 1.

* Solving quadratic equations (possibly for honors, definitely for AP or science and engineering focused college courses) using the quadratic formula or on a fancy calculator; our problems usually don't have nice numbers for factoring.  Estimation methods for simplifying to linear equations or perfect squares will be taught in class, so quadratics are seldom needed.  When I taught a CTY high-school chemistry course, no quadratics were used at all in the textbook.  This tends to be near the end of an algebra 1 course, although some publishers push it to algebra 2.

For AP or science and engineering focused college courses, the student also needs:

* Natural logarithms (ln) and e^x: concept and calculator use (Again, I have had pre-calculus and even a couple of calculus 1 students who needed me to teach them just enough about these for our purposes.) These are used in studying kinetics (rates of reactions), usually in the second half of the course.

*Very basic trigonometry: triangle definitions of sin, cos and tan and finding values on a calculator if diffraction is studied in the atomic structure or crystallography chapters.

 

[teachermom2834]

Thank you @Alice Lambfor the detailed reply.

I never thought I would give up homeschooling and I'm having a very hard time with it and with having to go along with the school schedule. I'm used to being able to plan things how I want them, darn it! And I wouldn't do honors chemistry first semester of freshman year. But obviously hundreds of kids do it there every year. 

[Lecka]

That is the schedule here, but kids taking chemistry in 9th grade took physical science in 8th grade.

I am not sure I would skip it.

I didn’t for my oldest, but we moved during Covid, and I didn’t think chemistry was a good choice during potential zoom school.

Physical science was a good class for him.  

[Lecka]

The other thing is that physical science and algebra I seemed like they were set up to go together.  Like — they would be working on similar graphs between algebra I and physical science.

If she’s not in algebra I anyway that might not make as much sense for her.  

[teachermom2834]

She is currently in physical science and algebra 1 now in 8th grade. I wasn’t deciding to skip physical science. I was just surprised that chemistry was the first course for incoming freshman. I expect it to be in 10th or 11th along with algebra 2, in general. 
 

But if she goes to school I don’t get a say. In this, anyway. 

[regentrude]

I don't see where you would need algebra 2 in chemistry. Solid algebra 1 skills should be all (if it includes logarithms and exponentials, in case the chem course is actually rigorous and does kinetics)

I prefer to start with physics. From a systematic point of view that makes a lot more sense since it is the most fundamental of sciences.

[Lecka]

I think if she is taking algebra I and physical science now, it makes sense?

 

[Clemsondana]

My own student, working at home, did AP chem concurrently with algebra 2 (both as a 9th grader - we did things in an odd order for 'reasons').  I'd agree that chemistry is challenging if a student doesn't have solid algebra skills, but I don't think algebra 2 is needed.  At my high school, back in the dark ages, chemistry was required for graduation but I don't think that algebra 2 was (obvsiously this was non-college prep).  

[teachermom2834]

Thanks everyone. I remember chemistry being one of the most difficult general requirements everyone took to graduate and surely my older kids would say it was one of their most difficult general high school courses. It surprised me to see it up first at this high school. This isn’t a high performing high school with a bunch of kids going on to take APs. So it struck me as odd to start there. But it sounds like lots of schools do it this way. 
 

I guess I think chemistry is hard and unusual first science course at a very average to below average performing school. But I guess that is not unusual after all! I would rather my dd not jump right into chemistry but if all the other kids manage I know she will as well.

Edited November 3, 2021 by teachermom2834