Text based vs immersion based foreign language debate (non Latin languages)

[Kendall]

My rising senior announced  1 week before the start of school that she wanted to learn Spanish. I found this fabulous thread which led me to this video

 

https://www.theulat.com/PROBLEM.HTM

in which he claims that an immersion based start is best. I would have definitely gone for an intensive text based program and would love to hear both sides of this issue.  Any thoughts? Do you agree with him? 

 

Thanks in advance,

Kendall 

 

 

 

[freesia]

In my experience, either will work.  What is best is a child who wants to learn a foreign language.  That said, my opinion is that for a child without a strong interest, immersion works best.

[Arcadia]

When my kids learn by text based only, they could read but can’t write well and have difficulty conversing. The main issue is they lack the confidence to do so. When they learn by immersion based, they could at least converse and they pick up the reading and writing part later. 
The thing with immersion for my kids is that “immersion” is learning from people chatting and also from YouTube. There is vested interest to understand. 

[wendyroo]

I think at that age it is a hard call.

I think of immersion as the marathon method versus the sprint of explicit textbook instruction. For example, my 10 year old, who has been taught primarily through immersion and comprehensible input for the last ~6 years, can read and comprehend Spanish books meant for 4-6 year olds with all of their advanced grammar, syntax and idioms. He can functionally communicate with fluent speakers about most common topics, and also has a large interest-based vocabulary centered around topics like superheroes, weapons, zombies, ancient Egypt, etc. His ear is finely tuned, so he can understand most of what is said in videos aimed at elementary students. So, on one hand, he has the skills of a strong Spanish 2 student...perhaps even Spanish 3 if you are just looking at his comprehension. However, there are huge chunks of Spanish 1 content that he still frequently gets wrong...content that he could master, at least on a superficial level, pretty quickly if he was willing to drill from a textbook...which he is not...not that I would want him to.

That is kind of the nature of immersion learning, just like my 5 year old still occasionally uses "digged" and "gooses" in English. Immersion is like using a Roomba to vacuum a room - it probably will get most of the dirt up if it has enough battery life, but lacking a deliberate plan, it is going to bounce off a lot of walls and go over some spots many times while only hitting others tangentially. Today we were reading a picture book, and came across "tenebroso", gloomy, and "fruncir el ceño", to scowl, and "charlar", to chat - in 5 years of traditional Spanish classes I never learned any of those, but they are all spots that my kids' Roombas have covered thoroughly because they come up surprisingly often in books and videos aimed at kids. But the trade off is that I was way better at filling in verb charts accurately very early on in my Spanish education - I couldn't use those verbs conversationally, but I could conjugated them on a test.

So if your DD is looking to learn as much functional communication in the next year as possible, then I would vote ULAT. However, she should be prepared that if she continues in college she might test back into Spanish 1 (which in my opinion is not necessarily a bad thing).

OTOH, if her goal is to continue Spanish in college and she really wants to be ready to test into Spanish 2, then she might be better off with a more traditional textbook method. It will explicitly teach the skills that the placement test will be looking for.

On a side note, I really like the ULAT. I think Steve does a phenomenal job finding creative ways right from the beginning to teach abstract concepts while remaining 100% in a foreign language. It is one thing to hold up an apple and say "manzana" and expect the student to make the leap. It is another to get across the very idea of verb conjugation to English speaking students who have probably never consciously encountered it before. And yet he does it in ways that slowly lead students to that "aha" moment while exposing them along the way to a lot of interesting linguistic input that keeps them engaged.

[regentrude]

Language learning by immersion takes a long time. It works well for young children. Highschool age kids and adults can jump-start their language learning tremendously if they make use of the fact that they are literate in their native language and can use print materials and systematic vocabulary and grammar studies, as opposed to intuiting rules from immersion.
Of course you need to build in enough real conversation practice, which is lacking in many text based programs. 

Edited August 4, 2021 by regentrude

[madteaparty]

I think the sweet spot, if you can make it happen, is a period of immersion after some textbook learning. I’m not good with numbers, but I feel like immersion first would get your kid from 0 to 5. Some textbook learning first  followed by immersion would take them from 5 to 15. I guess what I’m saying is that usually, immersion is the answer but I’ve found it to work better after some book learning. Anyway just my experience, FWIW. 

[rutheart]

I had three years of textbook-based Spanish in high school. My brother also took Spanish, and we used it as our secret language when we didn't want our parents to know what we were talking about. By the end of the three years, I was dreaming in Spanish. Having a conversation partner is very important for textbook-based foreign language to work. My husband and parents did not have this, and they never reached any level of fluency with their studied languages and never use them now.

With whatever budget you have for this last minute subject, I would spend money first on a conversation partner, and if there is anything left, then buy a textbook.

 

[ByGrace3]

This is tough... immersion is by far the best way to learn a language -- but it is also nearly impossible to recreate outside of actually being with a native speaker for LARGE chunks of time. Once or twice a week in a class is not going to create a true immersion experience. This is why most go the textbook route. It can be accomplished more easily and steadily. Conversation with a fluent or native speaker is necessary with the text to make any kind of conversation progress. 

That said, I am not familiar with ULAT and how it works, so no help on that front. 

[Kendall]

Thank you all so much for this discussion.  So many helpful points from all of you.

The reason I have had my high schoolers do 2 years of high school Latin and 2 years of American Sign Language is because I suspected that being around a fluent speaker for large chunks of time was the way to get to the point where you could converse and I didn't have that option. With ASL they can and do get to the point that they can converse in the first year and fairly functional (but by no means fluent) in the second year. 

This child is already functional in ASL and knows as a future nurse that knowing Spanish would be good. I think I need to view this as getting her as much vocabulary/language structure/conversation as I can so that if she does get to the point that she could be around native speakers a lot, she would have a good foundation.

Her math skills are very strong; I'm going to look into trading math tutoring for conversations with a native speaker. 

Now to find a good text based program...

 

 

[Farrar]

Here's what my experience has been... Kids who are learning only from a text tend to go nowhere fast unless they're significantly more motivated in their work ethic than the vast majority or kids or are building on a skillset where they're already pretty "good at" languages. It's just not enough practice. Learning a foreign language pushes your brain outside its comfort zone for most people. It's a huge bulk of memorization. If you're not using it for anything, you'll struggle to make it stick.

Immersion can be a good jump start if it's done right. But it also doesn't work for all students.

I really think most kids need a blended approach. They need a class or a tutor where someone is pushing them to USE the language alongside the support of a text with written practice. I just think it has to be multipronged for most learners. So when homeschoolers are like, we'll just use a textbook... I think that's not always the best. But it's not like being thrown in the deep end will get a kid very far without a lot of other support.

It also depends a bit on your goals, I guess. Years ago, when I came back to the US from China, I tried to take classes to keep up my Mandarin and it was mostly a disaster. None of the other students in any of the classes I tried could speak Chinese, IMHO. Like, they just sat there and if pressed to talk would form these super simple sentences painfully slowly. So it was really a frustrating experience from my perspective. I was there to try and keep up my skills. But then whenever there was a test, they would all do okay and I'd fail or just squeak by. Because they were all really good at memorizing the words and filling in the blanks and so forth - in order to have gotten to level 3 or whatever it was. I was only good at chattering away with whatever words I could find. So the teachers would love me at first because I'd talk in class and had a decent accent with decent tones and knew a lot of vocabulary and sentence structures. But then I'd mess up all kinds of little things and not remember specific vocab for the tests and they'd get sort of annoyed with me. Basically... speaking, communicating, and getting comfortable with a language only happens with immersion. But grammar rules and lots of vocabulary happen through textbooks. 

[Arcadia]

https://catalogimages.wiley.com/images/db/pdf/9780470462447.excerpt.pdf from the book https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Spanish+All+in+One+For+Dummies-p-9780470462447

https://www.reddit.com/r/medicalschoolanki/comments/6ewfxv/complete_medical_spanish_vocabulary_1500_terms/“Complete Medical Spanish Vocabulary: 1500 terms
This includes all the vocabulary of the McGraw-Hill Complete Medical Spanish in anki flashcard format.”

[wendyroo]

39 minutes ago, Farrar said:

But grammar rules and lots of vocabulary happen through textbooks. 

I agree somewhat.

My kids' grammar sense, after many years of comprehensible input and partial immersion, is not nearly as systematic as mine was after a much shorter amount of textbook study. However, theirs is much more intuitive and flexible. For example, I had to memorize specific rules for when to use ser (to be) versus when to use estar (also, to be). And then as I progressed I has to memorize specific exceptions to those rules. But even with a solid understanding of the rules and an ability to ace textbook tests on the concept, there were still plenty of cases that came up in native speech and writing that I would get wrong. The biggest problem, though, like you described, is I spent a lot of time halting and stumbling and mentally referring to the rules to decide what word to use.

My kids, OTOH, would not do well if tested on infrequent ser/estar situations that they rarely encounter. They have no memorized rules to fall back on. But, they have a surprisingly nuanced mastery of the common situations, and never hesitate when speaking because to them one "sounds" right in a sentence and the other "sounds" ridiculous.

It is a similar situation with vocabulary. I was taught a lot of words by pure rote, but 1) without actually using those words, it was a constant fight to not forget them, and 2) many of those words were, IMO, stupidly chosen. I vividly remember that the list of occupations included the word for cobbler...and yet I didn't know how to express bookshelf or dark blue or junk food or cheating...all concepts that I think are arguably far more useful and applicable in daily life. My kids have a huge Spanish vocabulary, but it is heavily weighted toward the practical (for them). The first animal name my daughter learned was dog, but the second was unicorn. And I just asked my 12 year old if he knew the word for cobbler, and he didn't, but he made an intuitive guess, and it was right.

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I really think most kids need a blended approach. They need a class or a tutor where someone is pushing them to USE the language alongside the support of a text with written practice. I just think it has to be multipronged for most learners. So when homeschoolers are like, we'll just use a textbook... I think that's not always the best. But it's not like being thrown in the deep end will get a kid very far without a lot of other support.

I agree with this. I think people's brains remember used language much better, but it's also realistically impossible to provide sufficient immersion for quick learning in the homeschool setting. 

What I do with DD9 is a mix of immersive activities (speaking Russian, having her watch Russian cartoons), a  strong focus on grammatical patterns (she will not intuit them via the limited amount of immersion we do, but they DO get incorporated into her conversational skills), and some written work. It's been wildly successful and I'd recommend it, although of course I can much more speaking than you might be able to get without actually be a native speaker. But I think you could do something similar with a tutor. 

I don't know if I'd change the weighting of the different components with an older kid, but I may not. 

[madteaparty]

3 hours ago, wendyroo said:

I agree somewhat.

My kids' grammar sense, after many years of comprehensible input and partial immersion, is not nearly as systematic as mine was after a much shorter amount of textbook study. However, theirs is much more intuitive and flexible. For example, I had to memorize specific rules for when to use ser (to be) versus when to use estar (also, to be). And then as I progressed I has to memorize specific exceptions to those rules. But even with a solid understanding of the rules and an ability to ace textbook tests on the concept, there were still plenty of cases that came up in native speech and writing that I would get wrong. The biggest problem, though, like you described, is I spent a lot of time halting and stumbling and mentally referring to the rules to decide what word to use.

My kids, OTOH, would not do well if tested on infrequent ser/estar situations that they rarely encounter. They have no memorized rules to fall back on. But, they have a surprisingly nuanced mastery of the common situations, and never hesitate when speaking because to them one "sounds" right in a sentence and the other "sounds" ridiculous.

It is a similar situation with vocabulary. I was taught a lot of words by pure rote, but 1) without actually using those words, it was a constant fight to not forget them, and 2) many of those words were, IMO, stupidly chosen. I vividly remember that the list of occupations included the word for cobbler...and yet I didn't know how to express bookshelf or dark blue or junk food or cheating...all concepts that I think are arguably far more useful and applicable in daily life. My kids have a huge Spanish vocabulary, but it is heavily weighted toward the practical (for them). The first animal name my daughter learned was dog, but the second was unicorn. And I just asked my 12 year old if he knew the word for cobbler, and he didn't, but he made an intuitive guess, and it was right.

It also depends on the language itself. English grammar can absolutely be learned via this living language approach. French, not so much. I mean it seems to me French kids themselves spend most of the school day learning, well, French. 

[Not_a_Number]

17 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

It also depends on the language itself. English grammar can absolutely be learned via this living language approach. French, not so much. I mean it seems to me French kids themselves spend most of the school day learning, well, French. 

My sister was in a French immersion school and she is definitely intuitive with grammar.

[Roadrunner]

21 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

My sister was in a French immersion school and she is definitely intuitive with grammar.

For speaking, but if you want to write it correctly, you need explicit teaching, because there are lots of things you write in French that just aren’t pronounced (in conjugations not just random silent letters as you see in English). 

[wendyroo]

3 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

For speaking, but if you want to write it correctly, you need explicit teaching, because there are lots of things you write in French that just aren’t pronounced (in conjugations not just random silent letters as you see in English). 

I think this is true of English and Spanish too in various ways.

There are plenty of native English speakers who have to practice for the SAT because they don't know how to write grammatically.

And there are specifically classes for Spanish heritage speakers who can speak fluently but don't know the grammar they need to pass a Spanish AP exam or enter an upper level Spanish class in college.

[Not_a_Number]

11 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

For speaking, but if you want to write it correctly, you need explicit teaching, because there are lots of things you write in French that just aren’t pronounced (in conjugations not just random silent letters as you see in English). 

Sure, but it’s still the case that a human brain holds on to a used language better than a purely textbook one.

[Roadrunner]

46 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

I think this is true of English and Spanish too in various ways.

There are plenty of native English speakers who have to practice for the SAT because they don't know how to write grammatically.

And there are specifically classes for Spanish heritage speakers who can speak fluently but don't know the grammar they need to pass a Spanish AP exam or enter an upper level Spanish class in college.

I don't know anything about Spanish, but English and French just aren't comparable. I speak and write both as a non native speaker. 

 

I would say immersion is best for spoken. I would say it's necessary to become fluent for most.  But if you ever care to write anything in French or read, you need grammar instruction so you understand what all the endings are all about. English was just not a same ballgame.

 

Also if you have a native speaker at home, it's an easier thing to do immersion. However, I have seen programs where twice a week an hour immersion courses are offered and really accomplish nothing. In that scenario I much prefer a traditional approach. So I guess you have to work with what you have got. 

[Arcadia]

5 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I agree with this. I think people's brains remember used language much better, but it's also realistically impossible to provide sufficient immersion for quick learning in the homeschool setting. 

. But I think you could do something similar with a tutor. 

That’s where one parent/person one language comes in if the language the child is learning is the native language of either parent. One advantage of parent versus tutor is that the parent is a 24/7 tutor. 

 My kids know YouTube/Weibo comments chinese which is a different kind of vocabulary.  

@Farrarmight find this chinese social media acronyms amusing. Article is in English  https://ltl-school.com/chinese-slang/

Edited August 4, 2021 by Arcadia
Autocorrect

[alisha]

I think the difference you're talking about is having English as a translator. For instance, if I'm teaching French and I say "apple, pomme", this child will learn to translate from English--meaning, they'll think in their head the English word, and then scan their brain to come up with the French equivalent, Whereas if I say "pomme" while pointing to a picture of an apple, that child will learn to *think* in French. 

I wouldn't think one way is better than the other, it's more in which learning method will work for the child. (kind of like kinestetic vs audio vs visual learning). 

 

[Farrar]

I think if immersion is long term or from a young age, I do think grammar becomes intuitive, the way it is for native English speakers. But when you're likely to only get to a Language Class II or III level, starting in high school... honestly, I don't think grammar is ever going to become intuitive during that time. So if you need grammar, you probably need to additionally have a resource that teaches it.

[Not_a_Number]

On 8/4/2021 at 5:34 PM, Arcadia said:

That’s where one parent/person one language comes in if the language the child is learning is the native language of either parent. One advantage of parent versus tutor is that the parent is a 24/7 tutor. 

 My kids know YouTube/Weibo comments chinese which is a different kind of vocabulary.  

@Farrarmight find this chinese social media acronyms amusing. Article is in English  https://ltl-school.com/chinese-slang/

I didn’t do one parent/one language. I’ve seen it breed really intense power struggles, and I didn’t want that…

Edited August 6, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

On 8/4/2021 at 5:05 PM, Roadrunner said:

Also if you have a native speaker at home, it's an easier thing to do immersion. However, I have seen programs where twice a week an hour immersion courses are offered and really accomplish nothing. In that scenario I much prefer a traditional approach. So I guess you have to work with what you have got.

How much immersion do you figure one needs to be useful? I’m really curious about that. 

[Farrar]

12 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

How much immersion do you figure one needs to be useful? I’m really curious about that. 

I think it needs to be a lot. Like, everyday a lot. I think immersion that’s occasional like that can be useful to keep up or slowly build on skills you already have, but a couple hours a week of a language isn’t going to do a ton when you’re first starting out.

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I think it needs to be a lot. Like, everyday a lot. I think immersion that’s occasional like that can be useful to keep up or slowly build on skills you already have, but a couple hours a week of a language isn’t going to do a ton when you’re first starting out.

We did something like an hour a day for a while, and right now, I do some cartoons with DD5 but only 10-15 minutes of conversation. It does seem to move us forward. 

[Farrar]

41 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

We did something like an hour a day for a while, and right now, I do some cartoons with DD5 but only 10-15 minutes of conversation. It does seem to move us forward. 

The rules may be a bit different for littles and high schoolers though. In this context, I would not expect that to do much of anything. 

I've also known a lot of kids who had - not just occasional immersion or little programs, but who had full on elementary immersion programs for significant portions of their in class school day. Like, half the day in Spanish or Chinese or whatever. And then they get to middle school and forget most of it, and by high school, they have to start with level 1. And maybe it's a bit easier than for the kids who had nothing, but not by that much. It takes a lot of immersion and it takes consistency - especially going from childhood to youth. I've seen it fail way more than I've seen it work.

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

The rules may be a bit different for littles and high schoolers though. In this context, I would not expect that to do much of anything. 

I've also known a lot of kids who had - not just occasional immersion or little programs, but who had full on elementary immersion programs for significant portions of their in class school day. Like, half the day in Spanish or Chinese or whatever. And then they get to middle school and forget most of it, and by high school, they have to start with level 1. And maybe it's a bit easier than for the kids who had nothing, but not by that much. It takes a lot of immersion and it takes consistency - especially going from childhood to youth. I've seen it fail way more than I've seen it work.

Interesting. I suppose I’ve forgotten all my Ukrainian, which is rather like that. Would the kids get fluent during the immersive period?

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

How much immersion do you figure one needs to be useful? I’m really curious about that. 

I agree with what Farrar said above.  
 

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I agree with what Farrar said above.  
 

But that’s not about amount of immersion; that’s about consistency.

[Farrar]

36 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Interesting. I suppose I’ve forgotten all my Ukrainian, which is rather like that. Would the kids get fluent during the immersive period?

High ability for their age, definitely. But it's fleeting. It never gets solidified and then it just floats away during this period where they don't get any formal instruction.

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, Farrar said:

High ability for their age, definitely. But it's fleeting. It never gets solidified and then it just floats away during this period where they don't get any formal instruction.

I wonder if it’s possible to solidify a language at that age, or whether it’ll disappear without practice however they studied it?

[Roadrunner]

21 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

But that’s not about amount of immersion; that’s about consistency.

I am no expert at this to know the amount, but as Farrar mentioned I have seen very successful immersion programs in elementary schools when half a day is spent immersed in a language. I have also seen very successful immersion when a child has traditional learning background (some foundation) and then spends a semester abroad in that language. I have seen kids become fluent that way. 
And of course I have seen success when parents are native speakers. It’s not just a lesson a day, but reinforcing throughout the day, correcting, hearing family members speak over the phone or in person. Usually you have more immersion in those families than a simple lesson. 
 

what I have never seen is success when a kid attends couple times a week courses labeled as immersion. I much prefer traditional way in those circumstances. 

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

And of course I have seen success when parents are native speakers. It’s not just a lesson a day, but reinforcing throughout the day, correcting, hearing family members speak over the phone or in person. Usually you have more immersion in those families than a simple lesson. 

what I have never seen is success when a kid attends couple times a week courses labeled as immersion. I much prefer traditional way in those circumstances. 

There's really a vast space between those things, though. I'd agree that if you reinforce throughout the day, that's enough, and if you do a class a couple of times a week, that's not enough. I'm curious where the line is, though. As I said, we're definitely doing something in-between, and I'd be curious if something like that would work for a non-native speaker. Unlike total immersion, what we're doing is probably replicable with a tutor. 

[Farrar]

55 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I wonder if it’s possible to solidify a language at that age, or whether it’ll disappear without practice however they studied it?

Also not an expert. But the failing I see happens when kids go through an early age program with no follow up. I think the same could be true of many skills. Like, if you taught a kid to play piano from age 5-9 and then gave zero instruction and sat the kid down at age 14 and say, play me some jazz, kid, that would be a fail.

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Also not an expert. But the failing I see happens when kids go through an early age program with no follow up. I think the same could be true of many skills. Like, if you taught a kid to play piano from age 5-9 and then gave zero instruction and sat the kid down at age 14 and say, play me some jazz, kid, that would be a fail.

Yes, that’s my experience as well…

[wendyroo]

21 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

There's really a vast space between those things, though. I'd agree that if you reinforce throughout the day, that's enough, and if you do a class a couple of times a week, that's not enough. I'm curious where the line is, though. As I said, we're definitely doing something in-between, and I'd be curious if something like that would work for a non-native speaker. Unlike total immersion, what we're doing is probably replicable with a tutor. 

This is the land we live in.

I am far from a native Spanish speaker - I consistently test at about a CEFR B1 level, but that is because I am a really good tester. I think my actual conversational level is A2.

At home I can't provide any true immersion. I can provide comprehensible input at the lower levels - very fluently forming simple sentences with the most common verbs in the most common tenses and tons of vocab. I can also read very fluently and expressively (even when I don't fully understand what I am reading). And consistency is my superpower, so I can ensure my kids get plenty of time hearing natives speak the language (songs, audiobooks, videos) and later that my kids spend time reading in the language.

All together, I aim for at home Spanish activities to take up about an hour per grade each week. So, for example, my second grader listened to me read aloud in Spanish and discussed the books for about an hour a week (broken into 7-10 minute chunks), spent about 15 minutes working on Duolingo Stories, read a short fable and responded in Spanish (about 20 minutes), and split the rest of his time between listening to songs or audiobooks, watching videos and reading comic books.

Starting around 4 years old, my kids are in a weekly, 3 hour immersion class. However, most of the students don't do any work at home, so my kids tend to slowly outpace their classmates. With my oldest, we switched from the class to an online private tutor (about 1.5 hours a week) at the start of the pandemic when he was finishing up 5th grade.

DS is now about to start 7th grade, and he tests as a strong Spanish 4 student. His proficiency is far higher than mine, and I would class him as a strong B1-level. This coming year he will continue with his tutor, but also take an online, full immersion, comprehensible input Spanish 4 class. That will mean he has 2 hours of class with a fluent speaker, 1.5 hours of tutoring with a native speaker, and another 3-4 hours of at home study.

So far this method is working well for us. My goal is that DS is prepared to dual enroll in a 300-level Spanish course at the university in 9th or 10th grade, and that he reaches near fluency by the end of high school. And so far, my younger kids are following a similar progression, and will likely be able to reach similar goals.

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

There's really a vast space between those things, though. I'd agree that if you reinforce throughout the day, that's enough, and if you do a class a couple of times a week, that's not enough. I'm curious where the line is, though. As I said, we're definitely doing something in-between, and I'd be curious if something like that would work for a non-native speaker. Unlike total immersion, what we're doing is probably replicable with a tutor. 

I think similar to most things, there is no hard line. The advantage you have is you can see the progress at home and you know if it’s enough. 
Take my older kid. He is a low interest and low aptitude for languages. With the effort we put in, he should be totally fluent by now, but he isn’t. Half that work would have gotten a high aptitude/high interest kid there. 

[Arcadia]

3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

How much immersion do you figure one needs to be useful? I’m really curious about that. 

Singapore’s bilingual system is from preschool to 12th grade and many aren’t effectively bilingual. I think when we are teaching our children our native language, we have to decide what level of proficiency we are hoping for and what our kids are willing to go for. 

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I wonder if it’s possible to solidify a language at that age, or whether it’ll disappear without practice however they studied it?

I think how they study it doesn’t matter as long as the heart is not there and there is no need for usage. DS15 has no interest in languages. He will remember all the scolding sentences he learned through “immersion” though. DS16 on the other hand was able to use his Chinese vocabulary for Japanese dual enrollment classes. He watch Japanese YouTube videos but practice handwriting in Chinese because he thinks he doesn’t write pretty enough. 

[Farrar]

I feel like there are these different elements of learning a language. Dh took Spanish all through school. When we went to Mexico, I ended up playing translator. I have never taken Spanish, lol. But I can magnetic poetry the words I've got to turn into what I need. I'm convinced this is just a "I have lived abroad in a non-English speaking place" skill, but some people who have done that still can't seem to make good use of vocabulary. When I was living in China, I often played translator for the other white teachers if we were out without a Chinese friend and one of them would get super frustrated with me if I didn't know how to say the exact thing he wanted to say. And it was like, look, this is why you're getting nowhere with your Chinese. You think you have to say it the way you have to say it. Nope. You just have to get it across somehow. I always thought it was pretty rich that he would dis my skills when he had zero language skills himself.

But if you're aiming to translate books, that whole communicating however you can thing... not that useful. So there are different goals.

[Not_a_Number]

27 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Singapore’s bilingual system is from preschool to 12th grade and many aren’t effectively bilingual. I think when we are teaching our children our native language, we have to decide what level of proficiency we are hoping for and what our kids are willing to go for. 

At this point, I'm hoping for true fluency for DD9. But I didn't start teaching her until age 7, when she expressed interest -- I didn't want this to become a point of contention.

We'll see about DD5. She seems mildly interested, and right now basically all of her Russian is for fun -- she watched Russian cartoons, and does a tiny bit of practice with me. At this point, I'm more concerned about maintaining interest than anything else... although there's definitely a perk to getting the native accent going at a young age. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, wendyroo said:

All together, I aim for at home Spanish activities to take up about an hour per grade each week. So, for example, my second grader listened to me read aloud in Spanish and discussed the books for about an hour a week (broken into 7-10 minute chunks), spent about 15 minutes working on Duolingo Stories, read a short fable and responded in Spanish (about 20 minutes), and split the rest of his time between listening to songs or audiobooks, watching videos and reading comic books.

We're doing considerably more than that, I think, but then it's easier if you have a native speaker at home. DD9 probably does something like 8 hours a week? I'm not entirely sure. DD5 does like an hour a day, but the vast majority of that is watching a cartoon with DD9 (leaving her out of that seemed mean -- they don't get much other TV time!) 

ETA: I decided to kind of jump start the language learning and do quite a lot of it so that we could have a shot at a native accent. Plus, DD9 likes languages and is good at them, so I expect she might want to take another one, and I'd like that to be possible before she's a teen. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Arcadia]

12 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

. At this point, I'm more concerned about maintaining interest than anything else... although there's definitely a perk to getting the native accent going at a young age. 

DS16 would ask me to correct his intonation since he was a toddler. He didn’t want to sound like an ABC (American born Chinese). DS15 didn’t care unless he got laughed at for mispronunciation.  Both started german in elementary school and they could pass off for ABG when reciting. DS16 speaks Japanese like an ABJ. 
 

When my kids were very young, they speak English like they were singing. It was kind of funny. Chinese is tonal but English isn’t. My kid who is more interested in languages is also coincidentally the one more interested in music.

As for interest, my kids have the highest interest listening to “gossip”. They want to know what their parents are talking about with friends and relatives and my husband has many conference calls with the manufacturing companies in China. Panda Express staff also tend to speak to them in Chinese. 

[Not_a_Number]

39 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

DS16 would ask me to correct his intonation since he was a toddler. He didn’t want to sound like an ABC (American born Chinese). DS15 didn’t care unless he got laughed at for mispronunciation.  Both started german in elementary school and they could pass off for ABG when reciting. DS16 speaks Japanese like an ABJ. 
 

When my kids were very young, they speak English like they were singing. It was kind of funny. Chinese is tonal but English isn’t. My kid who is more interested in languages is also coincidentally the one more interested in music.

As for interest, my kids have the highest interest listening to “gossip”. They want to know what their parents are talking about with friends and relatives and my husband has many conference calls with the manufacturing companies in China. Panda Express staff also tend to speak to them in Chinese. 

I don’t speak much Russian around the kids, since DH isn’t a Russian speaker. So it’s pretty different.

[Roadrunner]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don’t speak much Russian around the kids, since DH isn’t a Russian speaker. So it’s pretty different.

This is the reason I failed personally. I was also working full time until my youngest was in second grade, so they were in English language daycare all day. 
Not speaking my native language is my biggest regret with them. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

This is the reason I failed personally. I was also working full time until my youngest was in second grade, so they were in English language daycare all day. 
Not speaking my native language is my biggest regret with them. 

Aww, I'm sorry! 

My English is much better than my Russian, anyway. So I'm not sure I'd have regretted it that much... but now that we're doing it, I'm taking it too seriously, like everything we do, lol. 

[mathnerd]

OP, I think that immersion learning is great for young kids who start early and build up their knowledge, grammar and accent through daily exposure. But, you have a senior who is getting ready to go to college and continue Spanish studies probably- so, I suggest that you use a textbook based approach so that they get a chance to accumulate as much grammar, vocabulary and language-usage before transferring to a college course. At their age, they would be able to pack in a lot of information into two semesters and get well ahead using a textbook based approach.

my son studied Spanish from preschool age until he was 6th grade level using an immersion based approach supplemented by text books. He dropped it to focus on another language and he lost his conversational fluency in a couple of years but can still read and write well in Spanish because of the textbook based worksheets and writing that his teacher made him do before.

Edited August 7, 2021 by mathnerd