Latin and Greek taking a lot of time

[LauraClark]

We are now 4 weeks into school and our days for ds9 are running about 6 hours long. And there are other things I would like to include and just can't time-wise. Greek and Latin are taking a lot of time each day. I hope for 15 min with each, but it's taking more like 45 min each. Thoughts that I would love advice on:

1) Ds9 just takes a long time with everything. Ds7 seems to be much faster, but his latin is in the extreme early days so it is much easier. Maybe it's just an issue with ds9? He's very bright and I hate to limit his academic possibilities by giving him less or even not doing one of the languages.

2) Does anyone teach alternate days with languages? That would certainly help, but I'm not sure if his retention would decrease.

3) we're using Hey Andrew! and Latin's Not so Tough. We don't do a whole lesson in a day. I really like the curriculum and it seems to be going well (we're into the grammar stuff and he is grasping it). I wonder if switching to GSWL would be beneficial? Followed by Lingua Latina? I really don't like to curriculum hop, but if it would help I'm willing to.

I'm all ears to any advice. Thank you!

[8filltheheart]

Honest opinion wanted?  I'd drop both.  Latin can be mastered at a much faster pace and with equal outcomes if studied in 7th+.  Latin grammar is complex and has to be approached in a long drawn out process with younger kids.  If you just wait, the material can be covered and mastered in 2 yrs total.  There is absolutely no need to study Latin from elementary school through middle school to achieve reading in Latin.  Spend 2 maybe 3 yrs mastering Latin grammar/vocab (via a text like Wheelock's) and the next step is reading Latin. (This is a very reasonable objective for avg students.)

No comment on Greek bc I have never had a child study Greek.  But, my 9 yr olds don't spend more than 3-3 1/2 hrs on school.  So if 1 1/2 hrs is being spent on Latin and Greek, that means that time I see as needing to be prioritized toward reading, math, writing as having a negative effect on my long-term goals.   

[bensonduck]

My 9 year old studies Greek with Hey Andrew as well. He just does 1 page per day and it takes 5-10 minutes. (Maybe less if it’s just a matching exercise or something.)

How many pages are you having him do? We’ve made great progress with just one quick page a day. He has retained a ton of vocabulary and seems to understand the cases. Maybe cut back how much you are assigning?

[Slache]

We are doing Andrew and LNST. We subscribe to the Latin Centered Curriculum philosophy (but not curriculum) which is essentially you teach Latin, Math, Writing and that's it. We don't follow it exclusively (see my signature for curriculum), but it gives me my priorities, (Bible, Greek, Math, Writing, Piano) and I don't worry about the rest. We do Science, History, Latin, Art, etc., but they're not my focus or a point of stress. If this doesn't sound good to you I don't think you should be doing both Latin and Greek. 

[caffeineandbooks]

You're further along the foreign language path than we are yet, but how about keeping him going just with Latin for now, and then doing Greek family style when your DS7 is ready to join in?  My eldest is also a foot dragger, and I've had some good results gently leveraging his competitive nature by having them do Greek together the past few months.  I haven't *said* they're competing, I have simply noticed that they both want to be the first to say the answer or finish the page, and they listen to one another's memory work to try to catch errors, so they're more engaged than if they learned separately.  It's a bonus time save for me that I'm not teaching two separate bits of Greek content each day too.

 

[LauraClark]

8 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

Honest opinion wanted?  I'd drop both.  Latin can be mastered at a much faster pace and with equal outcomes if studied in 7th+.  Latin grammar is complex and has to be approached in a long drawn out process with younger kids.  If you just wait, the material can be covered and mastered in 2 yrs total.  There is absolutely no need to study Latin from elementary school through middle school to achieve reading in Latin.  Spend 2 maybe 3 yrs mastering Latin grammar/vocab (via a text like Wheelock's) and the next step is reading Latin. (This is a very reasonable objective for avg students.)

No comment on Greek bc I have never had a child study Greek.  But, my 9 yr olds don't spend more than 3-3 1/2 hrs on school.  So if 1 1/2 hrs is being spent on Latin and Greek, that means that time I see as needing to be prioritized toward reading, math, writing as having a negative effect on my long-term goals.   

Thank you-that is helpful to hear. 

[LauraClark]

8 hours ago, bensonduck said:

My 9 year old studies Greek with Hey Andrew as well. He just does 1 page per day and it takes 5-10 minutes. (Maybe less if it’s just a matching exercise or something.)

How many pages are you having him do? We’ve made great progress with just one quick page a day. He has retained a ton of vocabulary and seems to understand the cases. Maybe cut back how much you are assigning?

We are only doing a partial page a day. He just takes forever on everything.

[LauraClark]

7 hours ago, Slache said:

We are doing Andrew and LNST. We subscribe to the Latin Centered Curriculum philosophy (but not curriculum) which is essentially you teach Latin, Math, Writing and that's it. We don't follow it exclusively (see my signature for curriculum), but it gives me my priorities, (Bible, Greek, Math, Writing, Piano) and I don't worry about the rest. We do Science, History, Latin, Art, etc., but they're not my focus or a point of stress. If this doesn't sound good to you I don't think you should be doing both Latin and Greek. 

Maybe that is it-I'm just trying to make everything the focus at the same time.

[LauraClark]

52 minutes ago, caffeineandbooks said:

You're further along the foreign language path than we are yet, but how about keeping him going just with Latin for now, and then doing Greek family style when your DS7 is ready to join in?  My eldest is also a foot dragger, and I've had some good results gently leveraging his competitive nature by having them do Greek together the past few months.  I haven't *said* they're competing, I have simply noticed that they both want to be the first to say the answer or finish the page, and they listen to one another's memory work to try to catch errors, so they're more engaged than if they learned separately.  It's a bonus time save for me that I'm not teaching two separate bits of Greek content each day too.

 

I really like that idea. Definitely for the next two I'm going to lump them together-I am getting spread way too thin. I'm worried that at this point it's too late for the older two-they are already 2 years apart in the curriculum. Maybe if I just continue with flashcards with ds9 until ds7 catches up?

[8filltheheart]

I'm going to insert another caution in here bc I have seen it repeatedly over the yrs.  Taking Latin and spreading it over the younger yrs often leads to disinterest and reluctance to continue when they are older.  Learning a language as a bunch of words and simple grammar rules that don't progress quickly into actual usage of the language in more interesting ways can be boring and frustrating.   It is rare that you'll see posters on these forums who have young kids doing Latin have kids enthused with Latin in high school bc it has been lost along the way, especially if they aren't having fun with it when they are younger.

Waiting until at least 6th grade will not hinder their mastery at all and may end up with greater mastery long term bc motivation can be maintained bc progression is more rapid and they are able to read more engaging materials.  

Living languages where they can listen/watch/sing/speak in an immersive manner in addition to learning the grammar are mastered differently.

[bensonduck]

For Greek, do you sit with him while he does the page? Does he like it/is he interested in it?  If he’s not excited about it he’s going to drag his feet (and I’d consider dropping it till he’s older). 
If he is interested in it, maybe he just needs you to sit with him and help direct him? 

[Slache]

8 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

I'm going to insert another caution in here bc I have seen it repeatedly over the yrs.  Taking Latin and spreading it over the younger yrs often leads to disinterest and reluctance to continue when they are older.  Learning a language as a bunch of words and simple grammar rules that don't progress quickly into actual usage of the language in more interesting ways can be boring and frustrating.   It is rare that you'll see posters on these forums who have young kids doing Latin have kids enthused with Latin in high school bc it has been lost along the way, especially if they aren't having fun with it when they are younger.

Waiting until at least 6th grade will not hinder their mastery at all and may end up with greater mastery long term bc motivation can be maintained bc progression is more rapid and they are able to read more engaging materials.  

Living languages where they can listen/watch/sing/speak in an immersive manner in addition to learning the grammar are mastered differently.

To piggyback, Greek understanding lends itself to Latin understanding and Latin understanding lends itself to Greek understanding. We begin Greek in 1st and by 3rd they're reading the Greek Bible and 4th writing stories in it. They see the value in it when we do our Bible studies, but I had no intention of starting Latin until 6th, at which point they'll have a fantastic grasp on the inner workings of Latin grammar because of their Greek studies. There are definitely huge differences, but one language gives the other a huge headstart.

[HomeAgain]

Ds11 takes both.

In fact, he has taken Latin and French for a few years now, and picked up Greek with Hey Andrew! last year.

The thing is, though, that LNST and Hey Andrew would not work together here. 
1. They are identical formats, requiring more active brain switching.
2. LNST 3-4 are not written particularly well, imo.  We didn't go beyond that with oldest ds, but the difference between it and another, more parent interactive program is light years. 

We set time limits on what ds does.  I get better work out of him for a concentrated short period than a "finish this lesson" approach.  Our total time with all three languages daily is about an hour: 15 minutes with Latin (in a more reading immersive program), 5 minutes with Greek, and 20-30 with French, alternating between a workbook, reading, and video (he does 2 of the 3 each day). There's no shame in going slow. 

All 3 languages have distinctive books, materials, and approaches.  Greek is straight workbook.  French's workbook is a colorful, 180 day style supplement for French children.  Latin is mostly oral and on notebook paper to answer questions.

So, to answer your specific question, I would absolutely switch to GSWL and take some time to reinforce LNST this year.  It can still be an option if he wants it, but backing up to a super comfortable point isn't a bad idea, either.

Spend some time to think of what your language goals are for a 9yo.  At that age, mine was exposure and interest.  Whatever kept him motivated, that's what we would do. 

[Not_a_Number]

11 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

Honest opinion wanted?  I'd drop both.  Latin can be mastered at a much faster pace and with equal outcomes if studied in 7th+.  Latin grammar is complex and has to be approached in a long drawn out process with younger kids.  If you just wait, the material can be covered and mastered in 2 yrs total.  There is absolutely no need to study Latin from elementary school through middle school to achieve reading in Latin.  Spend 2 maybe 3 yrs mastering Latin grammar/vocab (via a text like Wheelock's) and the next step is reading Latin. (This is a very reasonable objective for avg students.)

No comment on Greek bc I have never had a child study Greek.  But, my 9 yr olds don't spend more than 3-3 1/2 hrs on school.  So if 1 1/2 hrs is being spent on Latin and Greek, that means that time I see as needing to be prioritized toward reading, math, writing as having a negative effect on my long-term goals.   

Yep. Agreed. There are advantages to doing languages early if one is going the immersion route. If one has to do it via complicated grammar like with Latin, might as well wait. 

[LauraClark]

1 hour ago, bensonduck said:

For Greek, do you sit with him while he does the page? Does he like it/is he interested in it?  If he’s not excited about it he’s going to drag his feet (and I’d consider dropping it till he’s older). 
If he is interested in it, maybe he just needs you to sit with him and help direct him? 

He does enjoy it (the idea of learning Greek/Latin, sometimes not the daily work). I have been sitting with him towards the end of the lesson-I want him to try it n his own. I've got 4 kids and I think I'm just feeling spread so thin. Everything WTM is extremely teacher intensive-which in theory I love, but it's so hard to sit down with each kid for each subject. But you're right, I think if I say with him and talked through it the lessons would go much faster. 

[LauraClark]

1 hour ago, Slache said:

To piggyback, Greek understanding lends itself to Latin understanding and Latin understanding lends itself to Greek understanding. We begin Greek in 1st and by 3rd they're reading the Greek Bible and 4th writing stories in it. They see the value in it when we do our Bible studies, but I had no intention of starting Latin until 6th, at which point they'll have a fantastic grasp on the inner workings of Latin grammar because of their Greek studies. There are definitely huge differences, but one language gives the other a huge headstart.

I've been thinking about that too-maybe I don't need to do 2 curriculums with grammar (plus English grammar). There are a lot of similarities.

[LauraClark]

38 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

Ds11 takes both.

In fact, he has taken Latin and French for a few years now, and picked up Greek with Hey Andrew! last year.

The thing is, though, that LNST and Hey Andrew would not work together here. 
1. They are identical formats, requiring more active brain switching.
2. LNST 3-4 are not written particularly well, imo.  We didn't go beyond that with oldest ds, but the difference between it and another, more parent interactive program is light years. 

We set time limits on what ds does.  I get better work out of him for a concentrated short period than a "finish this lesson" approach.  Our total time with all three languages daily is about an hour: 15 minutes with Latin (in a more reading immersive program), 5 minutes with Greek, and 20-30 with French, alternating between a workbook, reading, and video (he does 2 of the 3 each day). There's no shame in going slow. 

All 3 languages have distinctive books, materials, and approaches.  Greek is straight workbook.  French's workbook is a colorful, 180 day style supplement for French children.  Latin is mostly oral and on notebook paper to answer questions.

So, to answer your specific question, I would absolutely switch to GSWL and take some time to reinforce LNST this year.  It can still be an option if he wants it, but backing up to a super comfortable point isn't a bad idea, either.

Spend some time to think of what your language goals are for a 9yo.  At that age, mine was exposure and interest.  Whatever kept him motivated, that's what we would do. 

Thank you-that is helpful. And, you're right, the formats are exactly the same so that probably contributes. I think my goal at this age is just exposure and excitement-it should be a fun thing to learn these "dead" languages. I think I'm getting bogged down in the workbooks.

[LauraClark]

You guys have been so helpful, as always! Some things I need to spend some time thinking about:

Why am I doing a workbook-is that a helpful approach at this age? It seems that I've somehow fallen into the this-book-must-be-completed trap.

I think I do want to continue with the languages. I hear what you're saying, @8filltheheart, and that is tremendously helpful to remember that I don't want to cause burnout. I need to watch myself and not push but keep it fun and interesting and maybe do much less. The fun and interesting in general has taken a back seat in other subjects too, I'm starting to realize (not that everything has to be fun, but you know what I'm saying).

Should I continue with the grammar element or just work on memorizing words? 

I have a Latin storybook and I'm going to take a workbook break and use that with both older boys together.

I don't have clear goals for anything. All things seems important to me at this age but I don't have time for all things. I need to really be thinking about that (tried discussing with dh, but his approach is kind of "whatever you think, honey").

[Slache]

Do you think clear cut goals would help? I have pretty clear cut goals for every subject and that's a large part of how I make decisions.

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, LauraClark said:

We are only doing a partial page a day. He just takes forever on everything.

How is his stamina or how does he feel the next day? 

My dd was very bright like that but molasses slow. I felt really bad when I finally got her psych testing at age 12 and found out she had a clinically low processing speed. No, foreign languages were not worth the strain. Yes, you can dump them and do just roots if you want. 

9 minutes ago, LauraClark said:

Why am I doing a workbook-is that a helpful approach at this age?

On the flip side, if he has ADHD and low processing speed, a workbook approach might be high structure and totally appropriate!! You should not change what you're doing simply on board advice. It's not as simple as workbooks are bad/good. LOOK AT YOUR DC. 

Fwiw, my dd hated workbooks. Of course she was so wild and creative that she really wanted to do just unit studies and free form learning. I tried to embrace that as much as possible. My ds on the other hand THRIVES on workbooks, does exceptionally with them. Same mom, but I'm looking at my kids and doing what makes them blossom, what makes them productive, what works. 

11 minutes ago, LauraClark said:

I don't have clear goals for anything.

Have you taken a break yet this year? I find when I really take a break, like 2-3 weeks OFF, completely off, I recalibrate and figure out what is important. Can you go camping? 

I had this epiphanal moment one year when we were doing Alaska, driving around. I realized that a lot of what I *thought* was important wasn't. And travel, breaks can do that for you, letting you see yourself, your kids, life a fresh way.

If you're only doing things because WTM said to or the boards said to, you need to back up and find it for yourself. 

I'm all for languages for kids for whom it's within reach. Some kids really thrive on the stimulus and it lights them up. Some kids are going to be drained because it's taking so much processing speed that they're too tired to do what they really want to do. And it has zilcho to do with IQ, because my dd is wicked smart (top ACT scores, etc.). Some kids are just not well served by putting tons of time into things that are their weakness. If the dc has clinically low processing speed (which is probably what you're describing, a disability of processing speed relative to IQ), then you're spending time teaching to their WEAKNESS. What you want to do is teach to their STRENGTHS.

[PeterPan]

33 minutes ago, LauraClark said:

Thank you-that is helpful. And, you're right, the formats are exactly the same so that probably contributes. I think my goal at this age is just exposure and excitement-it should be a fun thing to learn these "dead" languages. I think I'm getting bogged down in the workbooks.

So if your goal was love of learning, then it doesn't sound like that's happening. Or is it? Has your dc been pushing back? Just that he's continuing to participate, when it's this hard and bogging him down this much with the processing, tells you that he's still enthusiastic about learning. Just maybe you could transfer that willingness and enthusiasm to something that is an area of *strength*. 

What if you found something visual/spatial? Does he have any strengths you could explore or teach to? Timberdoodle usually sells a set of CAD type drawing materials. You could split them and let your 7 yo continue the languages (if he enjoys them and finds them speedy and doable) and put the other dc in something else. 

If he has a processing speed weakness, it's only going to get worse as the language complexity continues. Latin and greek are highly inflected languages, so there's LOTS of processing, lots of thinking about all those endings and how things match and the cases and lining things up. Some people are fine with this and some totally bog down. I did multiple languages in high school and college, so I really really really thought that my enthusiasm could catch with dd. I also really like grammar (haha). 

Kids are who they are. Maybe offer to delete some things and replace with something that teaches to the dc's strengths. Maybe do it for a while and see if your guilt goes down. In reality, what you probably wanted was for him to blossom as a learner and be a good version of who he is. Even if it's *different* from the picture of someone else's kid, that's ok! 

https://timberdoodle.com/products/complete-a-sketch-advanced-cd  Here's an example of the technical drawing. 

https://www.amazon.com/Dyslexic-Advantage-Unlocking-Hidden-Potential/dp/0452297923/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1L8V1BGUU7SRB&dchild=1&keywords=dyslexic+advantage&qid=1625750413&sprefix=dyslexic+advant%2Caps%2C188&sr=8-1  and here's a book (ignore the title) on seeing and embracing strengths in our kids.

Edited July 8, 2021 by PeterPan

[8filltheheart]

It doesn't have to be any sort of LD or slow processing speed.  It could be 9 yr old boredom.   Goodness, a kid who can crank out a math fact pg in 3 mins if they really wanted to can easily sit and drag the same assignment out for an hr simply bc they can with no logical reason behind dragging their feet other than they just don't want to do it.   

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, 8filltheheart said:

It doesn't have to be any sort of LD or slow processing speed.  It could be 9 yr old boredom.   Goodness, a kid who can crank out a math fact pg in 3 mins if they really wanted to can easily sit and drag the same assignment out for an hr simply bc they can with no logical reason behind dragging their feet other than they just don't want to do it.   

I can vouch for that one, sigh. DD8 is ridiculous about being bored. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, 8filltheheart said:

It could be 9 yr old boredom.

Is he bored? I think the op could definitely identify that, lol.

 

12 hours ago, LauraClark said:

Ds9 just takes a long time with everything.

This is what she said, that he takes a long time at "everything." My bad for extrapolating that being slow at everything could mean having a low processing speed.

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I can vouch for that one, sigh. DD8 is ridiculous about being bored. 

Your dd also has furry ears. 

(I'm teasing.)

Edited July 8, 2021 by PeterPan

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

Your dd also has furry ears. 

I feel like I missed something here.

Yes, I got that it was a joke, but I totally don’t get it, lol. She’s a… bored bunny? What?!

Edited July 8, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[PeterPan]

My goal was to give an answer she hadn't heard yet. When I don't know what to do, I take a break, get away from the boards, be really honest about my dc, talk with my dc, gather data. Somewhere in there there's also usually some serious groaning of prayer, haha. But mainly get away, be honest, look at your dc. Information helps you make better decisions, and she may realize she has an information gap if she's seeing a conspicuous pattern. 

[8filltheheart]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

Is he bored? I think the op could definitely identify that, lol.

 

This is what she said, that he takes a long time at "everything." My bad for extrapolating that being slow at everything could mean having a low processing speed.

If school is taking 6 hrs a day, yes, it could be that he just completely dreads everything and is dragging his heels.  

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I feel like I missed something here.

Yes, I got that it was a joke, but I totally don’t get it, lol. She’s a… bored bunny? What?!

Yeah, something like that. My dog is sort of muleish and opinionated, being a miniature schnauzer. Makes him a little more challenging to work with. Your dd seems to be opinionated about things. But I like bored bunny, definitely. 

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, 8filltheheart said:

If school is taking 6 hrs a day, yes, it could be that he just completely dreads everything and is dragging his heels.  

I completely agree she needs to figure out *why* it's taking so long. At that point, it's probably fatiguing and it's definitely skimping his time to do self driven learning, projects, reading, etc. 

[EKS]

13 hours ago, LauraClark said:

I wonder if switching to GSWL would be beneficial?

GSWL is a fabulous introduction and will take very little time.  

That said, why not just set a timer and do Latin and Greek for 15 minutes each? 

Also, when I had problems like this, I found it was helpful to think about my real purpose in doing whatever it was with my kids.  Frequently I could find a more efficient alternative that achieved the same goals (or I realized that my goals were unrealistic!).

[Clemsondana]

I was going to jump in with 8's post, that I"d just drop the dead languages until he was older, but Slache's post made me think that maybe the right course is to figure out what you want the focus of your schooling to be, and a classic/dead language approach is fine, but it will mean moderating what you do elsewhere.  If the intent is to just spend 15-30 minutes/day on the languages and they are taking too long, then you probably need to figure out if it's a boredom issue or a processing issue or an 'I don't want to do this' issue.  I don't let my kids drop subjects or programs that are something that I think that we need to focus on, but if it's something that they thought they wanted to do but didn't like once they actually started doing it, then we can switch gears.  My goals for elementary school involve broad exposure to lots of things and lots of free time, so I wouldn't be comfortable with that much time on a non-essential (for us) subject...as opposed to math or learning to read - those would be something that I'd be willing to invest an inordinate amount of time in if needed because they are foundational for our later goals.  For you, Latin and Greek could fall into that 'foundational' category, or not.  If it's mostly about exposure, you might find that root words programs fit the bill (Red Hot Root Words, Vocab from Classical Roots, or any of the MCT vocab books).  

One of the hardest things about homeschooling is that you have amazing opportunities to study things that most kids don't get...but the problem is that you can only add so many extra subjects or extra opportunities (dance, arts, sports, music) or take so many amazing field trips before it gets impossible.  At our house, we've ended up making some choices that would have surprised me when I had littles - extracurriculars have prevented us from taking some trips we had anticipated, but have been a great learning experience in their own right and had us travel to competitions in to places we wouldn't have seen otherwise...and we've made similar academic changes and compromises over the years because you just can't do everything without collapsing in a heap at the end of the day.  Good luck as you figure this out!  

Edited July 8, 2021 by Clemsondana

[8filltheheart]

13 hours ago, LauraClark said:

He's very bright and I hate to limit his academic possibilities by giving him less or even not doing one of the languages.

 

32 minutes ago, LauraClark said:

It seems that I've somehow fallen into the this-book-must-be-completed trap...

The fun and interesting in general has taken a back seat in other subjects too, I'm starting to realize (not that everything has to be fun, but you know what I'm saying).

Should I continue with the grammar element or just work on memorizing words? 

I don't have clear goals for anything. All things seems important to me at this age but I don't have time for all things. I need to really be thinking about that (tried discussing with dh, but his approach is kind of "whatever you think, honey").

I want to address these main pts.  The last one, goals, should be your first priority bc the second part of the last bolded statement is what is most likely driving everything else in your homeschool.  I have been doing this for a very long time and have witnessed 100s of families burn-out their kids bc they try to do all things which ultimately means what?  It is impossible to do all things well. In trying to do everything, kids lose enthusiasm and the desire for learning bc they are overwhelmed. 

I offer homeschool to college workshops (and have since 2014) and the saddest commentaries I hear are "what about kids who just don't care about learning and will only do the minimum that they are told they have to do?" and  "how do I get my high schooler to want to learn?"  Those are issues that should have been addressed long before high school. They go back to early childhood and how children were or were not inspired to learn and develop internal motivation for wanting to explore ideas/subjects/projects that interest them.

As the parent of kids across the ability spectrum (from disabled autistic to severe dyslexia to highly gifted), I disagree that doing less at younger ages is limiting academic possibilities.  It is a different focus that places a higher priority on them to fill in their days with interests (this means no electronic crutches to fill in their time.) It is about inspiring them to want to learn new things.  I'm dead serious when I say waiting will land them further ahead.  Internally motivated kids will far out pace kids who equate learning as something that they are told they have to do. 

Which takes me to the purple bolded pt.  What is the long term objective of memorizing a list of words?  Word lists are not learning or mastering a language.  What are the language goals?  For most people, the long-term objective is to use the language (reading, writing, speaking).   It is through using the language that language is enjoyed and vocabulary mastered and expanded in a pleasurable way.   If I take a French dictionary and have my child memorize words in it, they are no closer to speaking French than they were before they memorized those words.  It takes understanding the grammar, how sentences are structured, etc to speak French.  They might recognize individual words, but they won't be able to use them in a useful way.  Language acquistion is just more complicated than memorizing words.  Having a clear objective behind what you are doing will make it less frustrating for all involved.   

I agree with the suggestion that @PeterPan gave you to take some time off to assess your priorities and envision your long-term goals.  The WTM is not meant to be used as written.  It is simply an assembly of ideas that can be used as road map.  When you look at a map, you don't plan on driving on every single road on it.  You find which roads take you to your desired location.  Homeschooling is similar.   It is a journey.  You have a main route you want to take.  With that destination in mind, you travel in the general direction with lots of sight-seeing along the way.

[UHP]

1 hour ago, 8filltheheart said:

a kid who can crank out a math fact pg in 3 mins if they really wanted to can easily sit and drag the same assignment out for an hr

I have a suggestion for this. It could only help in narrow situations and it requires a lot of paper. But my 6-year-old will go through 10 problems on 5 pages, each with lots of white space on it, faster and more enthusiastically than she will go through 10 problems on 1 page.

[PeterPan]

10 minutes ago, UHP said:

I have a suggestion for this. It could only help in narrow situations and it requires a lot of paper. But my 6-year-old will go through 10 problems on 5 pages, each with lots of white space on it, faster and more enthusiastically than she will go through 10 problems on 1 page.

Fwiw, this is a very DTT (discrete trials training) kind of thing to do, and I do it all the time with my ds with ASD2. Chunking into small amounts to keep down anxiety. 

[Not_a_Number]

22 minutes ago, UHP said:

I have a suggestion for this. It could only help in narrow situations and it requires a lot of paper. But my 6-year-old will go through 10 problems on 5 pages, each with lots of white space on it, faster and more enthusiastically than she will go through 10 problems on 1 page.

I don’t think this would help here, but then my kiddo is apparently a bored bunny, lol.

[EKS]

14 hours ago, LauraClark said:

He's very bright and I hate to limit his academic possibilities by giving him less or even not doing one of the languages.

Frankly, since I assume that he hasn't gone through puberty yet, I think that his language-learning time might be better spent in a conversational approach to a modern language.  

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, EKS said:

Frankly, since I assume that he hasn't gone through puberty yet, I think that his language-learning time might be better spent in a conversational approach to a modern language.  

Exactly. I’ve been scrambling to do as much Russian as possible with DD8, since I figure the window on fluency via immersion will snap shut at some point. I was 11 when I was immersed in English and it worked, but it was definitely on the late end.

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, EKS said:

Frankly, since I assume that he hasn't gone through puberty yet, I think that his language-learning time might be better spent in a conversational approach to a modern language.  

And it would give her very interesting information if she tried. Some of the online vendors for 1:1 language lessons will do free lessons to start. 

[PeterPan]

27 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don’t think this would help here, but then my kiddo is apparently a bored bunny, lol.

When my dd was young I called her Tigger (like from Winnie the Pooh). When she got older I changed it to Tiger. Was never quite sure if I meant Tiger as in Tiger Woods (proficient, amazing) or like the Frosted Flakes commercial to "go show 'em you're a tiger!" 

[Slache]

If you go modern I suggest a language that conjugates its verbs, like Spanish. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Slache said:

If you go modern I suggest a language that conjugates its verbs, like Spanish. 

You can always go hardcore with the hard grammar and do Russian, which conjugates EVERYTHING. 😉 I’ve barely touched the noun cases with DD8…  

[8filltheheart]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

You can always go hardcore with the hard grammar and do Russian, which conjugates EVERYTHING. 😉 I’ve barely touched the noun cases with DD8…  

It's what I would suggest, too, if the objective is to make the transition to Latin later.  My dd did it in the reverse order and studied Latin then Russian and her Latin grammar provided an excellent foundation for grasping Russain grammar.  My 11 yod's Russian studies are nothing like her older sister's (who started in 9th grade) bc she didn't start with a couple of yrs of solid Latin grammar (plus yrs of French).

[Slache]

3 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

It's what I would suggest, too, if the objective is to make the transition to Latin later.  My dd did it in the reverse order and studied Latin then Russian and her Latin grammar provided an excellent foundation for grasping Russain grammar.  My 11 yod's Russian studies are nothing like her older sister's (who started in 9th grade) bc she didn't start with a couple of yrs of solid Latin grammar (plus yrs of French).

Very interesting!

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Slache said:

Very interesting!

I’ve been kind of shocked how much grammar we’re packing in. In Russian, you really can’t manage without thinking about what the words in the sentence are doing. We aren’t necessarily naming things yet, but she really has to THINK about it to speak grammatically.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Slache]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I’ve been kind of shocked how much grammar we’re packing in. In Russian, you really can’t manage without thinking about what the words in the sentence are doing. We aren’t necessarily naming things yet, but she really has to THINK about it to speak grammatically.

Sounds like algebra.

[8filltheheart]

1 minute ago, Slache said:

Very interesting!

Latin and Russian grammars are similar in complexity and far more complex than French or Spanish.  

[Slache]

1 minute ago, 8filltheheart said:

Latin and Russian grammars are similar in complexity and far more complex than French or Spanish.  

If you're trying to win me over on Russian, you're doing it wrong.

[Not_a_Number]

17 minutes ago, Slache said:

If you're trying to win me over on Russian, you're doing it wrong.

It's been a totally unforeseen perk around here. We did Russian because DD8 wanted to learn a language and picked Russian out of the options I offered (I wanted to do something where it'd be easy for me to help her and find her practice nearby.) And Russian is the one I can do entirely by myself, so we've been doing it much more intensively than we'd have done something like French. But I really can't imagine a better grammar program than what we're doing now, because every sentence makes you think about who is doing what to whom and what words describe other words, and in general about the function of each word in a sentence. 

For instance, just dealing with the word "like" required us to spend a LOT of time thinking about direct and indirect objects, because it changes the cases of the nouns around the word, and the direct object is the one that tells you the correct form of the verb, so you really have to know COLD which one is which or you can't complete the sentence. And that's one construction... as I said, we haven't dug deep into the noun cases, since we're still trying to get the verbs down. But when you're dealing with verbs, you also have to deal with gender, and you have to be very cognizant of the tense, since past tense is conjugated totally differently from present tense, and there's more than one future tense... it's all quite the mix and requires a LOT of understanding to use reasonably. 

[Not_a_Number]

25 minutes ago, Slache said:

Sounds like algebra.

How so? Not arguing, just not sure I'm following!