Racism questions

[Matryoshka]

On 3/11/2021 at 12:19 AM, DoraBora said:

Not personally.  Of course not.  I still find being called "white" ridiculous.

I agree. White is a stupid term. And yes, it's not a term used to exclude, but to include. White has nothing to do with actual skin color, but with who is in the 'in' group, who has the power. Irish people, some of the most melanin lacking people on the planet, were once not considered white. People are still arguing about whether Jews or Arabs are 'white' or not.  Are Iranians (the actual, historical Aryans) considered white?  Or the actual humans living in the Caucasus mountains?

It also then, no matter what the current 'polite' language is, sets this imaginary, arbitrary,  'white' category up as some kind of default human. 'White' and... really everyone else, many of whom have skin the same color or lighter than some in this 'white' category.   The 'white' concept is part and parcel of the whole racist miasma and is also harmful.  'White' isn't actually about melanin levels, it's about in-group status and power.  If we wanted to do actual ethnic sorting on the term, it's code for people of European descent (originally those of Germanic or Nordic strains only, also Protestant, but that later morphed to include southern and eastern Europeans and Celts, and Catholics were only suspect, but not completely excluded), or people who can pass themselves off as such.  How the Caucasus got involved is sketchy.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Matryoshka

[Condessa]

On 3/10/2021 at 10:30 PM, Farrar said:

This thread is ridiculous. I can't believe I just responded to anything in it. These answers are out there in so many places. I can't believe anyone is actually confused that colorblind ideology is a way of reinforcing racism or that there's a loaded history behind "colored" that isn't there with "people of color." You just don't want to know and don't want to be challenged at this point.

The idea that “colorblindness” reinforces racism vs. opposing it has not always been the prevailing antiracist view in the US, and its widespread acceptance among antiracist people is not global-wide.  You are actively pursuing antiracist methods as learned and understood in your society.  Deriding and accusing those whose societies currently have different methods of antiracism (widely endorsed by their own oppressed groups) for pursuing them is to set yourself up paternalistically as a judge of what members of oppressed groups in foreign countries should and should not desire of their treatment by their own society.

You did not come to your views in a vacuum.  Do you imagine that, had you lived in the time when colorblind ideology was the prominent antiracist ideology in this country, you would have come to the conviction of its wrongness and rejected it even if it were widely rejected in another place and information were widely available from there?  
 

And accusing those with questions of being disingenuous may discourage questioning in the future, but it does so at the cost of discouraging others from considering the validity of your views.  An opinion on anything that responds to clarifying questions with ad hominem attacks instead of clarification must logically be suspect.

[Sneezyone]

11 minutes ago, Condessa said:

The idea that “colorblindness” reinforces racism vs. opposing it has not always been the prevailing antiracist view in the US, and its widespread acceptance among antiracist people is not global-wide.  You are actively pursuing antiracist methods as learned and understood in your society.  Deriding and accusing those whose societies currently have different methods of antiracism (widely endorsed by their own oppressed groups) for pursuing them is to set yourself up paternalistically as a judge of what members of oppressed groups in foreign countries should and should not desire of their treatment by their own society.

You did not come to your views in a vacuum.  Do you imagine that, had you lived in the time when colorblind ideology was the prominent antiracist ideology in this country, you would have come to the conviction of its wrongness and rejected it even if it were widely rejected in another place and information were widely available from there?  
 

And accusing those with questions of being disingenuous may discourage questioning in the future, but it does so at the cost of discouraging others from considering the validity of your views.  An opinion on anything that responds to clarifying questions with ad hominem attacks instead of clarification must logically be suspect.

Which countries generally espouse colorblind ideology as an appropriate and desirable approach to anti-racist work?

[Condessa]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Which countries generally espouse colorblind ideology as an appropriate and desirable approach to anti-racist work?

Australia

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Condessa said:

Australia

Is it working?

[Sneezyone]

25 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

It’s interesting that in this very thread, someone who identifies as black gave their opinion and a white person responded that they shouldn’t feel that way.    🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

You know, I’m just gonna say it b/c many people wouldn’t and I don’t mind being the bad guy...

PoC raised primarily by white parents very often have different perspectives on the use of the term and racism. My ‘newfound’ niece (who was raised solely by her mother’s family b/c my brother was never informed of her existence) feels similarly. It doesn’t, at all, represent a majority or plurality view among PoC. It represents, IMO, a kind of erasure.

On my mom’s side, I have cousins raised in the same household, generally 30-40yo who are white passing and not, who have very different perspectives. Some basically identify as white, some multiracial, some black. On my dad’s side, I have A TON of biracial people, some 65+ years old. They all identify as ‘black’ as a result of being culturally included a much more dominant family culture.

Just because something is a predominant view doesn’t mean others don’t exist but I am still waiting, as always, to see ANY evidence that these alternative views of identification have lead to improvements in the overall status/treatment of minority groups. If someone can point me toward a society in which colorblind ideology has led to social progress, I’d love to see it.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Thatboyofmine said:

That’s fine.  But the problem is that a white person completely disregarded a black person’s view on race because it did not line up with her own beliefs.  That’s kind of a problem.  

Is it, or is it a reflection of actual experience? Depends on the person. My experience tells me that those views very often come from people who really do not closely ID with the greater black community at all. Not always but usually.

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

Would you like the poster to come in here and prove how much she’s been involved in the black community?  Does she need to show a dna test? Is that what it takes to make her opinion on her own race more valid than the opinion of a white person?  

No, I don’t. It’s unnecessary. B/c at the end of the day, there’s either evidence that the colorblind approach has been effective or there’s not. Which is why I asked...is that working? People who are raised in white households are often convinced it is in the absence of any evidence. How has it advanced the ball in Australia or the US? I’m open to changing my mind based on facts.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Sneezyone

[wathe]

30 minutes ago, Condessa said:

Australia

I thought Australia had official multiculturalism policy?

Maybe Australian boardies can chime in on this? 

[wathe]

46 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Is it working?

I think nope.

Obviously a single news article doesn't really answer the question.  And I'm not Australian.  But DH is well connected with his parents's country-of-origin diaspora, which includes Asian-Australians.  Anti-Asian racism is a big problem.

Edited to fix - parents plural

Edited March 12, 2021 by wathe

[Sneezyone]

Aaaand...I guess I will continue my wait. 🪦

[Not_a_Number]

On the original topic: I think that terminology changes due to historical usage. Frankly, that often means that terms that were designed not to be slurs become slurs as they are appropriated by malicious people. I wouldn’t be surprised if that happened with POC eventually, frankly.

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, wathe said:

I think nope.

Obviously a single news article doesn't really answer the question.  And I'm not Australian.  But DH is well connected with his parents's country-of-origin diaspora, which includes Asian-Australians.  Anti-Asian racism is a big problem.

Edited to fix - parents plural

I don’t think any country has eliminated racism, however. I don’t think it’s possible, because outgroup prejudice is very natural to us as a species.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I don’t think any country has eliminated racism, however. I don’t think it’s possible, because outgroup prejudice is very natural to us as a species.

The question was whether colorblind approaches were working and leading to a colorblind society. Do they offer more hope for equality than racially/ethnically aware approaches?

[wathe]

9 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The question was whether colorblind approaches were working and leading to a colorblind society. Do they offer more hope for equality than racially/ethnically aware approaches?

I think colourblind approaches permit the dominant group to ignore racism and pretend it doesn't exist.  The head-in-the-sand approach.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, wathe said:

I think colourblind approaches permit the dominant group to ignore racism and pretend it doesn't exist.  The head-in-the-sand approach.

That’s what my observation and reading tells me but there are vocal proponents of other views and I’d love to know how they came to those views and upon what evidence they stand.....🦗

[Not_a_Number]

13 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The question was whether colorblind approaches were working and leading to a colorblind society. Do they offer more hope for equality than racially/ethnically aware approaches?

My personal take is that those are window dressing on actual societal attitudes, I guess. If I had to guess, neither approach will solve the problem, which is very deep. Frankly, I have no clue how to solve it, although I really wish we could.

My parents had their ethnicity in their passport, lol. That’s the opposite of colorblind, I guess, but for all the wrong reasons. 

Anyway, I think no one will agree with me, so perhaps you can all bond about disagreeing with me! 😉 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

That’s what my observation and reading tells me but there are vocal proponents of other views and I’d love to know how they came to those views and upon what evidence they stand.....🦗

I’d guess because they’ve seen examples of explicitly negative racially based reasoning? 

[wathe]

24 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don’t think any country has eliminated racism, however. I don’t think it’s possible, because outgroup prejudice is very natural to us as a species.

Racism is everywhere, I agree.  Anti-Asian racism in Australia is particularly problematic.  Worse than in Canada (as per DH's parents's country-of-origin diaspora connections).  An example of how colourblind policy isn't working (if, indeed, Australian policy actually is colourblind, which I am uncertain of).

Edited March 12, 2021 by wathe

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, wathe said:

Racism is everywhere, I agree.  Anti-Asian racism in Australia is particularly problematic.  Worse than in Canada (as per DH's parent's country-of-origin diaspora connections).  An example of how colourblind policy isn't working (if, indeed, Australian policy actually is colourblind, which I am uncertain of).

But the question is whether it’s actually an example of that, or an example of something deeper and unrelated. I really couldn’t tell you.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I’d guess because they’ve seen examples of explicitly negative racially based reasoning? 

I cannot speak to that view so I do not know.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

I cannot speak to that view so I do not know.

Speaking only for myself, the idea that my ethnicity didn’t matter was very comforting when we got to Canada. I know that this obviously would have been a notion I’d have been disabused of at some point if I had looked different, but I did go to a very diverse school, and it was nice feeling like we were all just people. 

Again, much in my life since has convinced me that this was hopelessly naive, but that was how it felt when I was a young teen.

[Sneezyone]

11 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

My personal take is that those are window dressing on actual societal attitudes, I guess. If I had to guess, neither approach will solve the problem, which is very deep. Frankly, I have no clue how to solve it, although I really wish we could.

My parents had their ethnicity in their passport, lol. That’s the opposite of colorblind, I guess, but for all the wrong reasons. 

Anyway, I think no one will agree with me, so perhaps you can all bond about disagreeing with me! 😉 

Oh, language is really a sub-issue for me. You can call me a red-headed, two ton chimp if you want so long as a) I can return the compliment with impunity, b) you are required to hire and run me my money based on my talents and skills, and c) I can clean your clock in court if you don’t uphold your end of the bargain. The inability to enforce property rights, fair use, speech, assembly, and public safety laws based on color and ethnicity is at the heart of a lot of today’s disparities, not language.

 

5 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

Has Australia always had a lot of anti-Asian racism?    I know it’s happening in the US here but I think that’s because of certain groups continually calling covid the ‘China virus.’  I don’t remember hearing a lot about it before the pandemic. IMO, we’ll always have some racism because we’ll always have idiots in society.  

In my neighborhood, especially after the Vietnam war, there was a TON of anti-Asian sentiment expressed. That was only 30 years ago. Before that, during WWII (duh), railroad building and gold rush times, same thing. It comes in waves.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Oh, language is really a sub-issue for me. You can call me a red-headed, two ton chimp if you want so long as a) I can return the compliment with impunity, b) you are required to hire and run me my money based on my talents and skills, and c) I can clean your clock in court if you don’t uphold your end of the bargain.

Lol... there’s an apt Russian saying like that.

It means more or less,

“You can call me a pot, as long as you don’t put me over an open fire.” 😛 

Is there an equivalent English saying? Maybe the one about roses by any other name...

[wathe]

16 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

Has Australia always had a lot of anti-Asian racism?    I know it’s happening in the US here but I think that’s because of certain groups continually calling covid the ‘China virus.’  I don’t remember hearing a lot about it before the pandemic. IMO, we’ll always have some racism because we’ll always have idiots in society.  

I think so.  It definitely pre-dates covid.  (MIL lived there for high-school in the 60's, and it was definitely a problem then - but that's practically ancient history.)

As @Sneezyone said, it fluctuates over time, and correlates with global geopolitics.  Just as anti-Asian racism does in North America

ETA I think physical proximity to Asia plays role - similar to physical proximity of Mexico to USA influences anti-Latinx racism

 

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by wathe

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, Condessa said:

Australia

Not true. 

We do not have a colorblind policy. I don't even know what that would be. 

We have had a policy of multiculturalism, from the 1970's.

Anti-Asian prejudice is both historic (White Australia policy) and current, but doesn't neatly map onto outcomes like poverty. 

Poverty is highest among Indigenous and Torres Straight communities, largely as a legacy of white settlement. Also amongst refugees here without the right to work. 

Experience as a person of colour will vary depending on region. Most cities are extremely diverse; the outcomes for discrete communities within that broad grouping differ, sometimes quite radically. 

Outside of the cities, it varies. My ex once turned down a teaching promotion in a regional town because it was too white, and he didn't want to be the town curiosity. 

My opinion as just a single citizen is that racism is alive and kicking, as much as anywhere, but that I doubt very much the importation of US styles critical race theory, which  risks raising and radicalizing a 'white' consciousness, is the answer. 

Back in the olden days, people saw mixed marriages like mine as a good thing, and evidence that much racism was losing its hold...society was no  longer organizing itself along racial lines. It was quintessentially Modern - the idea that we all brought different histories and cultures to enrich a shared identity. That's dying now. No doubt its death will bring positives and negatives.

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

Just to add that I think multiculturalism rests on the contact hypothesis, the idea that the more contact we have with unlike others, the less prejudice we exhibit towards them. I'd have to check, but I I'm pretty sure the last time I looked, the contact hypothesis was still a relatively evidenced concept. So from that perspective, I'd say multiculturalism is relatively successful. 

Less successful when dealing with newer concepts, like hegemonic Whiteness. 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

44 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

Has Australia always had a lot of anti-Asian racism?    I know it’s happening in the US here but I think that’s because of certain groups continually calling covid the ‘China virus.’  I don’t remember hearing a lot about it before the pandemic. IMO, we’ll always have some racism because we’ll always have idiots in society.  

Yes, a lot. White Australia policy. Since the 70's, improvements, with waves of refugees (Vietnamese, Chinese) being welcomed in the latter part of the 20th C. Slight uptick with Covid. 

Otoh, Chinese immigrants have played a key role in white settlement. They are woven into our history.

 

[Ausmumof3]

3 hours ago, Condessa said:

Australia

Do we still?  I know we used to but every government form I fill out has a place for “are you of aboriginal or Torres Strait Island descent?” Or similar and every ceremony starts with “Welcome to Country, we acknowledge that this is the traditional lands of Kuarna people”.  My Dh used to be involved in recruitment and aboriginal descent or women would automatically score higher in the rankings.  
 

Im not sure if that’s the kind of thing meant?

Having said that Australia is plenty racist.

[Sneezyone]

14 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Back in the olden days, people saw mixed marriages like mine as a good thing, and evidence that much racism was losing its hold...society was no  longer organizing itself along racial lines. It was quintessentially Modern - the idea that we all brought different histories and cultures to enrich a shared identity. That's dying now. No doubt its death will bring positives and negatives.

This is interesting to me b/c the US never had any such halcyon days. Oh, there are a lot more intercultural/interracial marriages now but it's not really an indication of much beyond individual choices IMO. These marriages were prohibited by law until 1967 and it took a lot longer than that for the social stigma to die down. It hasn't in many circles.

 

9 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Just to add that I think multiculturalism rests on the contact hypothesis, the idea that the more contact we have with unlike others, the less prejudice we exhibit towards them. I'd have to check, but I I'm pretty sure the last time I looked, the contact hypothesis was still a relatively evidenced concept. So from that perspective, I'd say multiculturalism is relatively successful. 

Less successful when dealing with newer concepts, like hegemonic Whiteness. 

This is also very different b/c black people, native people have been in the U.S. since the beginning and proximity hasn't made the heart grow fonder or led to fewer prejudicial policies. Only direct action has. Different histories, I guess.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Do we still?  I know we used to but every government form I fill out has a place for “are you of aboriginal or Torres Strait Island descent?” Or similar and every ceremony starts with “Welcome to Country, we acknowledge that this is the traditional lands of Kuarna people”.  My Dh used to be involved in recruitment and aboriginal descent or women would automatically score higher in the rankings.  
 

Im not sure if that’s the kind of thing meant?

Having said that Australia is plenty racist.

Yes, we still have a policy of multiculturalism. But as you know, from the above, it's not colourblind. 

[Ausmumof3]

Anti Asian racism was definitely fading in recent years I think prior to COVID.  I think some of it is impacted by the fact that China is a somewhat real threat to domestic security and those fears manifest in different ways, sometimes as racism against individuals.  

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Different histories, I guess.

I was using the phrase 'olden days' sarcastically.

Of course mixed marriages here were not the done thing in polite society for a long time (though there were many exceptions from settlement on).

From the 80's on, however, they became increasingly normalised, and seen as a sign of progress. As a success stemming from multiculturalism. I understand this is now considered an old fashioned way of thinking. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

4 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Anti Asian racism was definitely fading in recent years I think prior to COVID.  I think some of it is impacted by the fact that China is a somewhat real threat to domestic security and those fears manifest in different ways, sometimes as racism against individuals.  

That's right. And Chinese students are being squeezed from both sides - uptick in prejudice here, fear of the CCP there...

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

That’s what my observation and reading tells me but there are vocal proponents of other views and I’d love to know how they came to those views and upon what evidence they stand.....🦗

As a white lady, I feel my “colorblind” upbringing prevented me from understanding reality. If racists didn’t exist, perhaps the concept of color blindness wouldn’t be so problematic. Given that there were and are racists, color blindness just allows it to fester. It doesn’t provide an actionable path to reverse the deep systems in place. It’s a shrug. I didn’t know that as a kid or young adult. I didn’t know what people were actually experiencing.

That’s kinda opposite of the question, I know.

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Given that there were and are racists, color blindness just allows it to fester. It doesn’t provide an actionable path to reverse the deep systems in place.

But does lack of color blindness give us actionable paths?

[Carrie12345]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

But does lack of color blindness give us actionable paths?

Yes. Non-racists who can see the differences between our life experiences can swing by google for one of millions of action plans.

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

But does lack of color blindness give us actionable paths?

Sure it does. We have, in the U.S. anyway, significant protest movements based on reversing discriminatory policies and practices. You cannot generate support for those movements/changes if one disbelieves the existence of problems.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Carrie12345 said:

Yes. Non-racists who can see the differences between our life experiences can swing by google for one of millions of action plans.

I think it’s a bit more complicated than that. I think you can both have positive plans (affirmative action, police reform, etc.) and anger as a result of actively race-based policies. I think on average people are a lot less comfortable with these policies than they are with the idea that we should be colorblind. I’m not saying it SHOULD be like that, I’m just observing.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I think it’s a bit more complicated than that. I think you can both have positive plans (affirmative action, police reform, etc.) and anger as a result of actively race-based policies. I think on average people are a lot less comfortable with these policies than they are with the idea that we should be colorblind. I’m not saying it SHOULD be like that, I’m just observing.

You could, of course, argue that anything that levels the playing field would be treated like that by the majority culture, because people like being in power. And you may be right. I don’t have any answers here. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I think it’s a bit more complicated than that. I think you can both have positive plans (affirmative action, police reform, etc.) and anger as a result of actively race-based policies. I think on average people are a lot less comfortable with these policies than they are with the idea that we should be colorblind. I’m not saying it SHOULD be like that, I’m just observing.

I think average people largely don't even believe discriminatory/racially based systems of disadvantage exist, or that the legacy of prior policies have created an uneven playing field, and are uncomfortable with the notion that they do.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

I think average people largely don't even believe discriminatory/racially based systems of disadvantage exist, or that the legacy of prior policies have created an uneven playing field, and are uncomfortable with the notion that they do.

Clearly. Which is utterly deluded. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Clearly. Which is utterly deluded. 

Or...LOL...blind. It's all in the name.

[Carrie12345]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think it’s a bit more complicated than that. I think you can both have positive plans (affirmative action, police reform, etc.) and anger as a result of actively race-based policies. I think on average people are a lot less comfortable with these policies than they are with the idea that we should be colorblind. I’m not saying it SHOULD be like that, I’m just observing.

I don’t think your observation is wrong, but I don’t care if white people get angry about it. Let them be angry. They’ll be gone eventually and, if we work hard enough, we can prevent their progeny from perpetuating their arrogant fragility.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Or...LOL...blind. It's all in the name.

I actually people can both be uncomfortable with race-based policies and believe that there are systemic disadvantages at the same time. Again... not arguing it makes sense.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Carrie12345 said:

I don’t think your observation is wrong, but I don’t care if white people get angry about it. Let them be angry. They’ll be gone eventually and, if we work hard enough, we can prevent their progeny from perpetuating their arrogant fragility.

I think their progeny can also wind up angry, though! I think the idea that each generation is more enlightened than the next isn’t always borne out...

[Ausmumof3]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think it’s a bit more complicated than that. I think you can both have positive plans (affirmative action, police reform, etc.) and anger as a result of actively race-based policies. I think on average people are a lot less comfortable with these policies than they are with the idea that we should be colorblind. I’m not saying it SHOULD be like that, I’m just observing.

Also I’m not sure if they work.  In dhs recent job change recruitment was divided into categories which meant the entrance scores etc to get in as a white male were in the 90s and as a female or non white person in the 60s to 70s.  And yet somehow he ended up in a room full of white makes with one person of Asian descent.  
 

This is more gender related but in his other job the males who were applying had typically done courses and school subjects that directly related to the course.  The females had done completely other stuff that had no relationship to the job at all.  They have been actively trying to employ a female apprentice for 2 -3 years but the number of applicants is quite low.  To me this suggests that the issue starts well before the recruitment placements.  Maybe it’s an issue of culture at home, maybe an issue of education.  Maybe a biological difference.  We do need to improve employment opportunities but maybe we need to start further back from the workplace.

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Also I’m not sure if they work.  In dhs recent job change recruitment was divided into categories which meant the entrance scores etc to get in as a white male were in the 90s and as a female or non white person in the 60s to 70s.  And yet somehow he ended up in a room full of white makes with one person of Asian descent.  

We no longer have explicit preference policies of that nature in the U.S. and haven't for many years.The only people who explicitly receive hiring preferences get them based on military affiliation/veteran status.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Also I’m not sure if they work.  In dhs recent job change recruitment was divided into categories which meant the entrance scores etc to get in as a white male were in the 90s and as a female or non white person in the 60s to 70s.  And yet somehow he ended up in a room full of white makes with one person of Asian descent.  

This is more gender related but in his other job the males who were applying had typically done courses and school subjects that directly related to the course.  The females had done completely other stuff that had no relationship to the job at all.  They have been actively trying to employ a female apprentice for 2 -3 years but the number of applicants is quite low.  To me this suggests that the issue starts well before the recruitment placements.  Maybe it’s an issue of culture at home, maybe an issue of education.  Maybe a biological difference.  We do need to improve employment opportunities but maybe we need to start further back from the workplace.

I also think that sometimes active affirmative action kind of does bad stuff to people's actual opinions. 

I mention this all the time, but top math graduate schools tend to admit female students who have lower qualifications than male students. And as a result... those female students struggle, because they aren't ready for the work. So in my year at Stanford, I think I was the only female who was allowed in without some degree of affirmative action, and I was also the only one who had no trouble with the program. And I've absolutely seen people who get in on their own merits feel resentful, because then everyone assumes they got in because of their race/gender/whatever instead of it being assumed they are equal. 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

We no longer have explicit preference policies of that nature in the U.S. and haven't for many years.

Maybe not officially. I can tell you that certain academic departments are absolutely desperate to hire diverse faculty and get diverse students.