Pros and Cons of math acceleration?

[Drama Llama]

My fifth grader found out that his same age cousin is planning to test to take Algebra in 6th grade.  So, naturally, since the two of them compete about everything, he wants to take Algebra in 6th grade too.  I think he could probably do it.  He'd need to do preAlgebra over the next 8 months, but he's capable of that, I think.

But, I'm not sure if I actually want it. I'd love to hear people's thoughts about the pros and cons of accelerating, when it doesn't seem to be driven by a passion for math.  

If we do decide to do this, what's the best way to go about it?  One idea I had was to do something like Derek Owens PreAlgebra, and let him set the pace.  If he finishes by the beginning of sixth, then I'll put him in Algebra, either in Derek Owens, or through the public schools if covid numbers come down and he's back to in person learning.  

[Kiara.I]

It's all very well to do Algebra now. Will his brain be ready for calculus when it gets there early?

Sometimes there are things in math that seem to require developmental leaps. I'm hesitant to accelerate math unless it's really clearly needed.

[Drama Llama]

Just now, Kiara.I said:

It's all very well to do Algebra now. Will his brain be ready for calculus when it gets there early?

Sometimes there are things in math that seem to require developmental leaps. I'm hesitant to accelerate math unless it's really clearly needed.

I don't know.  That's why I'm asking.  

We're in a district that requires 4 years of math taken during high school.  If he takes Algebra in 6th, and preCalc in 9th, he could end up in multivariable in 11th, which seems really young.  

My guess is that he might be ready to do it with a lot of effort, but he's also a pretty athletic kid.  I can imagine him having other priorities.  I'm also not sure what would be the advantages of being "ahead".

[wendyroo]

What math (level and resource) is he using now?

In general, I would always vote against moving quickly/superficially through materials just to be "ahead". I tend to think that a young student who is "probably" ready for the next level can almost always benefit more going deeper into the current materials until it is rock solid at a deep, conceptual level, rather than moving ahead as soon as they can probably keep their head above water.

My kids are all quite accelerated in math, but what one doesn't see at a glance is that I spend most of my time trying to slow them down. For example, my kindergartener is finishing up first grade math...for the third time. I have taken her through 3 complete first grade math curriculums starting when she was 4, not because she ever struggled with the material, but because I chose carefully so each pass through went deeper and challenged her more with the material.

So, yes, my kids tend to start prealgebra at 8. But, that is after they have gone through Math Mammoth, Star Wars math, chunks of Beast Academy, Hands on Geometry, Patty Paper Geometry, all of Zaccaro's Challenge Math books and his Becoming a Problem Solving Genius, and Hands on Equations first with manipulatives and then on paper.

Then for prealgebra they do Math Mammoth prealgebra, Zaccaro's Real World Algebra, and another full prealgebra program (so far either AOPS or Jousting Armadillos).

In your shoes, I would be very concerned about your son doing "fine" in prealgebra without really having all the time he needs to grapple with and fully understand the new concepts, the ones that are going to set him up for success in algebra. It feels like this could really come back to bite him when he tries to keep up in algebra, especially if he ends up in a classroom setting (virtual or in-person).

[madteaparty]

I don’t think there is a downside if you continue to homeschool. For me, I know for sure child is heading to school, and our top choice allows kids to skip one, but only one year of math. And so, not that I have that problem 🤣but being multiple years advanced would make kid very bored rest of school career. And we can’t supplement math evenings because first we are not hardcore like that and second any evenings we are up to sparing are for foreign language 

[Drama Llama]

10 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

What math (level and resource) is he using now?

In general, I would always vote against moving quickly/superficially through materials just to be "ahead". I tend to think that a young student who is "probably" ready for the next level can almost always benefit more going deeper into the current materials until it is rock solid at a deep, conceptual level, rather than moving ahead as soon as they can probably keep their head above water.

My kids are all quite accelerated in math, but what one doesn't see at a glance is that I spend most of my time trying to slow them down. For example, my kindergartener is finishing up first grade math...for the third time. I have taken her through 3 complete first grade math curriculums starting when she was 4, not because she ever struggled with the material, but because I chose carefully so each pass through went deeper and challenged her more with the material.

So, yes, my kids tend to start prealgebra at 8. But, that is after they have gone through Math Mammoth, Star Wars math, chunks of Beast Academy, Hands on Geometry, Patty Paper Geometry, all of Zaccaro's Challenge Math books and his Becoming a Problem Solving Genius, and Hands on Equations first with manipulatives and then on paper.

Then for prealgebra they do Math Mammoth prealgebra, Zaccaro's Real World Algebra, and another full prealgebra program (so far either AOPS or Jousting Armadillos).

In your shoes, I would be very concerned about your son doing "fine" in prealgebra without really having all the time he needs to grapple with and fully understand the new concepts, the ones that are going to set him up for success in algebra. It feels like this could really come back to bite him when he tries to keep up in algebra, especially if he ends up in a classroom setting (virtual or in-person).

Right now, he's mostly doing Beast Academy online, and is coming close to the end of BA 5.  Sometimes, when he hits something he can't figure out, he looks up the relevant stuff in Math Mammoth, or he spends some time with his brother's math tutor sorting out whatever he's confused about..  He took the end of sixth grade test in Math Mammoth, and scored well enough that he should have then take the seventh, but I didn't have him take that. 

My understanding is that if he's mastered BA5 and MM6, then he's probably got about a year's worth of content.  At the pace he's working on, I think he could go through that year's worth of content in 8 months.  

He will, eventually, be back in school.  If he goes to public school this fall, they'd allow him to take Algebra in 6th, if that's what I picked.  But I'm not sure that's what I want for him. 

[Drama Llama]

11 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

I don’t think there is a downside if you continue to homeschool. For me, I know for sure child is heading to school, and our top choice allows kids to skip one, but only one year of math. And so, not that I have that problem 🤣but being multiple years advanced would make kid very bored rest of school career. And we can’t supplement math evenings because first we are not hardcore like that and second any evenings we are up to sparing are for foreign language 

We definitely won't continue to homeschool forever.  We're crisis schoolers, and though it works well for him mathematically, it's not ideal in any other way. Our local public school offers Algebra as an option in 6th.  

[Not_a_Number]

I'd accelerate him, because it's not like he's going to be doing something FUN instead of algebra, right? He'll be rehashing the same old arithmetic if he doesn't take algebra. 

[Not_a_Number]

51 minutes ago, Kiara.I said:

It's all very well to do Algebra now. Will his brain be ready for calculus when it gets there early?

I actually don't think calculus is particularly conceptually difficult if you have a kid who's honestly solid on algebra, functions, and graphs. The problem is that the vast majority of kids I've tried to teach calculus weren't solid, and then it was too hard.

[Tree Frog]

Ds homeschooled through 4th and public schooled the rest. He asked to be accelerated in middle school because they were learning fractions again in 6th grade. We covered fractions in 4th, ps in Florida covered then in 5th, and ps in Texas covered them in 6th. The advantage of acceleration was that the accelerated math held his interest all the way through high school. The disadvantage was that the multivariable high school teacher quit just as he was needing to take it. Because a favorite teacher advocated for him, the high school offered him the opportunity to self teach a computer language instead of one year of math. He was able to get his professional certificate in Java his sophomore year, took statistics junior year, and calculus BC his senior year. If he hasn't been able to take that year of coding, he would either have skipped a year of math, which we didn't want, or he would've had to take a class at the community college, which would've been difficult to work with class and band schedules.

In our ISD, if a course is recognized as a high school course, it is accepted for high school credit regardless of when it was taken. So ds's algebra and geometry, which he took in middle school, counted towards his 4 year math requirement.

This worked very well for ds because he was motivated. I think it could also work for your ds, even if he's only motivated by competition.

[Drama Llama]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I'd accelerate him, because it's not like he's going to be doing something FUN instead of algebra, right? He'll be rehashing the same old arithmetic if he doesn't take algebra. 

Well, no, we could just stop math after Beast Academy, and he could run around outside and play basketball and build robots and bake cookies and take PreAlgebra in the fall. 

 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Well, no, we could just stop math after Beast Academy, and he could run around outside and play basketball and build robots and bake cookies and take PreAlgebra in the fall. 

That's what I mean. He won't be doing anything fun in school. He'll be doing prealgebra, lol. It's not like you have the option to go wide and do cool stuff in school if you don't do algebra. 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Drama Llama]

21 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

That's what I mean. He won't be doing anything fun in school. He'll be doing prealgebra, lol. It's not like you have the option to go wide and do cool stuff in school if you don't do algebra. 

I guess I don't see algebra as more fun or cooler than preA?  

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I guess I don't see algebra as more fun or cooler than preA?  

It's less of a rehash of what came before. 

The point is that if you're not accelerating so that you can go wide, you should at least go wide. Is he going to cover things in prealgebra that he hasn't seen before or not? Do you know if he needs a serious prealgebra class? 

[Drama Llama]

He needs preAlgebra.  Whether he gets it this spring/summer, or he gets it in school this fall, he's not ready to skip it.  

I think if he does it this spring/summer we'll do something relatively self directed.  I think that part of what has worked about MM and Beast Academy is that we are sort letting him set the pace and the direction. 

[wendyroo]

11 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

He needs preAlgebra.  Whether he gets it this spring/summer, or he gets it in school this fall, he's not ready to skip it.  

I think if he does it this spring/summer we'll do something relatively self directed.  I think that part of what has worked about MM and Beast Academy is that we are sort letting him set the pace and the direction. 

My worry would be that he may get half way through prealgebra on his own, fizzle due to difficulty or spending a lot of time outside in the spring and summer, and then be stuck between a rock and a hard place. Much of the prealgebra class at school would be review, but he won't be ready for algebra (which may hit him as a big disappointment after already putting in that much time).

I guess I wouldn't let him stop math entirely after Beast 5, but I would let him self direct through some fun resources that go wide. Let him explore math this semester, let him consolidate his learning next year in prealgebra, and have him take algebra in 7th which is still plenty early to take all the math classes he may want to in high school.

[Not_a_Number]

24 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

He needs preAlgebra.  Whether he gets it this spring/summer, or he gets it in school this fall, he's not ready to skip it.  

What exactly IS pre-algebra and why does he need it? 

I'm not arguing that you should skip it, I'm just saying that if you have him take it at school, he won't get any more depth or anything more interesting than if you accelerate. So then the argument that you should go deep and wide instead of going for algebra doesn't really work -- he won't be going deeper this way. 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, wendyroo said:

My worry would be that he may get half way through prealgebra on his own, fizzle due to difficulty or spending a lot of time outside in the spring and summer, and then be stuck between a rock and a hard place. Much of the prealgebra class at school would be review, but he won't be ready for algebra (which may hit him as a big disappointment after already putting in that much time).

Yeah, that's a valid concern. 

I'm just curious: is pre-algebra ever NOT review? I've been teaching the AoPS prealgebra class, and it's definitely almost all review, as far as I can tell. At most we're giving names to things kids already know. 

[caffeineandbooks]

1 hour ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Well, no, we could just stop math after Beast Academy, and he could run around outside and play basketball and build robots and bake cookies and take PreAlgebra in the fall. 

 

This sounds far more appealing to me!

This kid has had a hard year, even by 2020 standards.  Especially since he's headed back to school in the next year or two, I'd give serious consideration to letting him coast for a bit - maybe look at some competition math or something that's outside the normal school scope and sequence if you want to keep his brain ticking over, but otherwise use the time for something fun and refreshing and not-school.  If you gave him the choice - "You could complete this and that over the summer, or else if you'd rather, we could..." what would he choose?  Bonus points if you can find something you'd both like to do together.

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, caffeineandbooks said:

This sounds far more appealing to me!

This kid has had a hard year, even by 2020 standards.  Especially since he's headed back to school in the next year or two, I'd give serious consideration to letting him coast for a bit - maybe look at some competition math or something that's outside the normal school scope and sequence if you want to keep his brain ticking over, but otherwise use the time for something fun and refreshing and not-school.  If you gave him the choice - "You could complete this and that over the summer, or else if you'd rather, we could..." what would he choose?  Bonus points if you can find something you'd both like to do together.

It sounds more appealing to me too!  

So, this is coming from him.  Like he's asking me for this.  I didn't even tell him Algebra in 6th was a possibility, he came to me with that knowledge from his cousin.   And if that was a sign that he loved math, I'd probably be eager to run with it.  His brother loved math.  It made him happy. It was a thing we did together.  And he did Algebra before he was sixth grade age, although not with me, it was before he came to us.   But the motivation here isn't love of math, it's competition.  

Part of the issue is that I work full time, and all of this math is something that happens when I'm working.  So, doing something with me, isn't a choice.  He does stuff with me, but not math.  And less math wouldn't mean more time to do stuff with me, because I'm already maxed out.  

 

[wendyroo]

10 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, that's a valid concern. 

I'm just curious: is pre-algebra ever NOT review? I've been teaching the AoPS prealgebra class, and it's definitely almost all review, as far as I can tell. At most we're giving names to things kids already know. 

For Peter, on a surface level, AOPS prealgebra (using the book at home) was almost entirely review. But on two much more important levels, it wasn't review at all.

First, it was the level of thinking, frustration and stamina required. I had always ensured that his math was making him think, but prealgebra was clearly a big step up. Some of those challenge problems are hard and take a lot of steps and organization and time! This was the first time he was routinely getting math problems wrong. So, while, yes, he already knew about exponents, rates and perimeter, this required him to truly understand them on a much deeper level.

Second, for Peter, the method of instruction was completely new. This was one of the first times he started with a textbook and a blank notebook. Initially he had to be taught how to number his problems and how to box the answers. And while this may seem like a trivial lesson, for him it was much harder than any of the math. We focused on showing work steps through the entire book (for 18 months!), and by the end he still struggled and resisted. Again, it wasn't the square roots or angles that were new, but rather the organization and logical thought.

I think kids progress along a lot of different axes, and sometimes it makes a lot of sense to slow down progress along one in order to support increased demands along another. I think some kids truly do need prealgebra to solidify their arithmetic skills and give them a slow introduction to variables and equations. I think others need prealgebra for maturation or executive function reasons.

[Drama Llama]

34 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

My worry would be that he may get half way through prealgebra on his own, fizzle due to difficulty or spending a lot of time outside in the spring and summer, and then be stuck between a rock and a hard place. Much of the prealgebra class at school would be review, but he won't be ready for algebra (which may hit him as a big disappointment after already putting in that much time).

I guess I don't know that I consider that a terrible outcome.  Like if he bites off more than he can chew, or he realizes that competing with his cousin isn't worth giving up time running around in the back yard, then he's learned something about himself.  It's not like taking a class where you know some of the stuff is some terrible thing.   It just means your homework goes faster and you have more time to play.  

34 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

I guess I wouldn't let him stop math entirely after Beast 5, but I would let him self direct through some fun resources that go wide. Let him explore math this semester, let him consolidate his learning next year in prealgebra, and have him take algebra in 7th which is still plenty early to take all the math classes he may want to in high school.

I feel like I'd like to provide a variety of resources, some of which would get him through PreAlgebra if he chooses to use them that way.  That part of the decision is easy.  I'm not going to tell him he can't do math.  

So, my question is do I tell him "and if you get through preAlgebra, then you can take Algebra 1"?   And if he goes to school, do I choose his school based on whether or not they offer Algebra 1 to sixth graders?  That's where I'm still undecided.  

I know that people care about their kids being on a faster track in middle school.  My sister in law clearly cares.  I'm just not sure why they want it.  

 

[Lori D.]

From my 20 years of seeing a wide variety of homeschooling family experiences, both locally in my homeschool group and on these boards:

I've seen a number of advanced/accelerated math students move into Algebra at 6th grade -- and hit the wall (brain has not yet developed the abstract thinking needed for ease with algebra). Or they need to slow way down and take 2 years to go through it.

I've also seen taking Algebra 1 in 6th grade cause some issues down the road with testing in the later high school grades. When students are far ahead in the math progression (like completing Pre-Calculus or Calculus in 9th grade), they sometimes struggle in 11th grade when they take the SAT/ACT test because it is heavy on Algebra 2 topics that they haven't worked with in a long time. It just means having to spend some extra time on math prep to go back and review the math concepts that will be tested in those grades. But that can trip up families who don't realize how easy it is to "get rusty" on Math topics when you are 2, 3, 4 years out from having seen/heavily worked with those particular topics.

I'm strong with the English subjects (lit., writing, grammar, etc.), and average with Math so take my thoughts with a grain of salt... BUT... I honestly don't see why the rush to Algebra 1 in 6th grade. I would far prefer to see students "go wide" and spend 6th grade exploring math topics that don't often get much coverage, to spend a lot of time on in-depth problem solving of various types and looking at math topics from a variety of perspectives to make math connections and strengthen problem-solving skills.

In answer to your question:
Just my 2 cents worth, but I would be concerned about missing a lot of topics by focusing heavily for the next 8 months "teaching to the test" just so a child had bragging rights of doing Algebra 1 in 6th grade. As I said above, I'd far prefer seeing an advance upper elementary / young middle school student get broad exposure and do some interesting math explorations and problem solving that will help strengthen their math connections for the higher maths.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Lori D.

[Lori D.]

Adding on, now that I've read the other posters' responses. Like Wendyroo, I think there are plenty of things he could do this year after finishing Beast Academy 5 that would explore in various directions. A few ideas:

- Life of Fred -- gr. 4-6 topics; gr. 6-8 topics
- Jousting Armadillos
- Hands On Geometry (Freeman)
- Patty Paper Geometry (Serra)
- TOPS units: Metric Measuring; Graphing; Probability
- Challenge Math (Zoccaro)
- Real World Math (Clemson)
- Fascinating Fibonnaccis (Seymour)
- Secrets of Mental Math (Benjamin)
- Calculus By and For Young People (Coen) -- free pdf; explorations, so good for gr. 1-8, as students will tackle the topics each at their own level of knowledge

Books for fun:
- Number Devil (Enzensberger)
- Adventures of Penrose the Mathematical Cat (Pappas)
- Fractals, Googles and Other Mathematical Tales (Pappas)
- Geogbra

[Drama Llama]

I am leaning towards telling him no.  I worry that then he ends up in calculus in 10th and then what?  

But to be clear, "going wide" isn't really an option here.  At this point, I'm not assigning math.  He's doing it on his own, and his motivation is competition.  If I take that motivation away, then he'll probably stop doing math.  Which I'm fine with.  He's worked hard, he can take a break and pick it back up in the fall.  But I don't have the bandwidth to do math that's directed by me.  That may sound terrible, but it's a fact.  I get off work at 5:00.  Neither of us is in a place at that point to be doing math together.  

 

[Lori D.]

6 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I am leaning towards telling him no.  I worry that then he ends up in calculus in 10th and then what?  

But to be clear, "going wide" isn't really an option here.  At this point, I'm not assigning math.  He's doing it on his own, and his motivation is competition.  If I take that motivation away, then he'll probably stop doing math.  Which I'm fine with.  He's worked hard, he can take a break and pick it back up in the fall.  But I don't have the bandwidth to do math that's directed by me.  That may sound terrible, but it's a fact.  I get off work at 5:00.  Neither of us is in a place at that point to be doing math together.  

 

Sorry. I thought your DSs were working with a math tutor??

[Drama Llama]

Just now, Lori D. said:

Sorry. I thought your DSs were working with a math tutor??

My other kid is.  This kid sometimes pops in to ask a question if he's stuck in Beast Academy, but the tutor is for the other kid. 

This kid is ahead of his brother in math, and his brother has to take Algebra this fall because it's the lowest math offered in high school here.  So, he's the priority.  

[BusyMom5]

My opinion on PreAl and Algebra 1 and 6-8th grade kids.  Puberty brain is a thing.  I thought it was just girls,  then I had my boys and its the same thing.  I have ended up doing 2 years of PreAl with my oldest 4.  I know they aren't ready to write out steps,  organize, and spend the time required on Algebra problems.   Right now I've got one doing the I don’t need to write down anything but the answer bc I'm doing it in my head.  Hes correct about 75% of the time 😉 If math takes much over 30-40 minutes, they get frustrated.   I think during these years its better to wait and use a lot of different things to teach these skills.  Most adults never use math past PreAl-Algebra 1, so you want those skills really solid.  

From what you have posted, I would just keep on letting him do whatever math he wanted.  When he finishes BA, maybe find another online program- Khan Academy is free.  When you are ready to enroll him, decide then with the help of the school councilor.   

[wendyroo]

6 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I am leaning towards telling him no.  I worry that then he ends up in calculus in 10th and then what?  

But to be clear, "going wide" isn't really an option here.  At this point, I'm not assigning math.  He's doing it on his own, and his motivation is competition.  If I take that motivation away, then he'll probably stop doing math.  Which I'm fine with.  He's worked hard, he can take a break and pick it back up in the fall.  But I don't have the bandwidth to do math that's directed by me.  That may sound terrible, but it's a fact.  I get off work at 5:00.  Neither of us is in a place at that point to be doing math together.  

 

Would he maybe switch to playing Prodigy math after BA? I personally would not worry at all if he didn’t learn any new math between now and fall, but if he stops math entirely, that could result in some serious “summer slide” come fall. Even just half an hour a couple days a week could keep the math fresh in his brain...and I have not found Prodigy to be a hard sell for any of my boys. 

[Not_a_Number]

8 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

 

I am leaning towards telling him no.  I worry that then he ends up in calculus in 10th and then what?  

 

Then you’ll have to make sure he does something with the math, yes.

But it’s not like calculus is the end of the math road. You can USE it for lots of sciences. But yes, you’d have to make sure he doesn’t just have 2 years with no math.

The reason I was leaning towards yes for him was that

a) he asked, and I put a relatively high premium on kid autonomy

and

b) since algebra is offered, the mathiest kids will probably be in that class, for better or worse. That’s likely to make the other classes more like review.

I would also assume a whole class full of sixth graders taking algebra will be a gentler introduction than a high school class, and given that algebra concepts can require some marinating, that seems good.

But this is me making a lot of assumptions. If I knew more about the teachers and classmates and curriculum, it would help.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

9 hours ago, wendyroo said:

I think kids progress along a lot of different axes, and sometimes it makes a lot of sense to slow down progress along one in order to support increased demands along another. I think some kids truly do need prealgebra to solidify their arithmetic skills and give them a slow introduction to variables and equations. I think others need prealgebra for maturation or executive function reasons.

Interesting. That perspective makes a lot of sense to me, and I guess that makes it clearer to me why people might want to put off algebra until later. If "doing algebra" means working through a high school level class, then I can see that sometimes you might want to tread water mathematically until the child is mature enough to handle it. 

Since I design DD8's work myself, I can calibrate the different axes separately, so I make different decisions. I'm also somewhat scarred by my time teaching calculus students. By the time I had taught those students, they had clearly all been "developmentally mature" enough to handle the demands of the work, but most of them had such deep conceptual holes that it was still impossible to teach them. So... I guess while most people worry about kids not being mature enough to handle the material, I tend to worry more about not giving kids' brains enough time to really solidify concepts. There are a LOT of new concepts in high school math, and I often find that one concept needs to be truly integrated before you move on to the next one. Doing it all at once can lead to procedural proficiency without any conceptual basis for it. 

That's why I tend to lean the "introduce concepts early and gently" direction, and I know you do, too -- just not within the context of a formal class. And I assume that's mostly because my kids allow me the energy to make their work myself, and yours do not, so the constraints are quite different. 

Anyway, this is a bit off topic from the main thread. @BaseballandHockey, is there a world in which you split the difference and work towards his goal to show you respect his wishes, but make it clear that he'll only be able to do this if it goes well? Not even in a "I'm going to punish you" kind of way, but in a "well, we tried, and it turned out you had different priorities" kind of way. Then you can see how he feels about it. 

I know he doesn't LOVE math, but does he basically like math? Would trying to do the work to get him ready make him surly or would he have an OK time with it? 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Drama Llama]

3 hours ago, wendyroo said:

Would he maybe switch to playing Prodigy math after BA? I personally would not worry at all if he didn’t learn any new math between now and fall, but if he stops math entirely, that could result in some serious “summer slide” come fall. Even just half an hour a couple days a week could keep the math fresh in his brain...and I have not found Prodigy to be a hard sell for any of my boys. 

Thanks, I'll look into this. 

I am really not that worried about summer slide.  I figure if he learned it quickly the first time, he will again?  Maybe I'm naive?   We do need to fill up the time, in that right now he's doing his math independently during a time when the house needs to be quiet.

Once I make the decision about next year, which I need to make now because it impacts school choice and those decisions need to be made, I can think more about the time problem.  He's probably got a few more weeks to a month before he finishes B.A..  

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Then you’ll have to make sure he does something with the math, yes.

But it’s not like calculus is the end of the math road. You can USE it for lots of sciences. But yes, you’d have to make sure he doesn’t just have 2 years with no math.

Our district requires 4 years of math taken in high school.  So, he'd need to keep going anyway.  We have a fair amount of choice as far as HS (going through that process with his brother now), and knowing that he needed math past calculus would limit those choices, although I guess he could do something like AB, BC, and then AP Stats, which would be an option anywhere.  He could also do the IB program, and take HL.  Or he could choose one of the high schools that offers multivariable and/or linear algebra. 

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

The reason I was leaning towards yes for him was that

a) he asked, and I put a relatively high premium on kid autonomy

and

b) since algebra is offered, the mathiest kids will probably be in that class, for better or worse. That’s likely to make the other classes more like review.

I would also assume a whole class full of sixth graders taking algebra will be a gentler introduction than a high school class, and given that algebra concepts can require some marinating, that seems good.

There are four options if we decide to do Algebra.   One is that we could try to get him placed in the gifted STEM magnet in our district.  In that case, he'd be in a class of 6th and 7th graders, all considered gifted.  Since he hasn't taken any standardized tests in 4th or 5th, I'd need to pay for private testing this week, and if he scored high enough he'd be entered into a lottery for the spaces, so it's a long shot.  It would also mean he'd need to take the bus to school, which I don't love covid wise.  I haven't yet decided if we'll apply for him. 

The second option is that he'd go to our local public school, where the sixth graders taking algebra are mixed in with seventh and eighth graders.  So, the kids wouldn't be mathier, they'd just be older.  

The third option would be to send him back to the small private he was attending previously, which doesn't have either a PreA or an Algebra option in 6th.  There are covid reasons, and social reasons to do that.  If we did that, we could ask that he get pulled out to do something like Derek Owens, or do 6th grade math and other math after school.   Right now, this is his favorite idea.  

The fourth option would be homeschooling, which we'd only do if we felt unsafe about sending him to school due to covid.  I really hope it doesn't come to that.  If we did that, and he did Algebra, we'd need to do it in some way that we could document and apply for transfer credit, and that would prepare him to take the state test that he'd need to graduate.   

Basically, all of these options would be Common Core, full high school speed.  There's not a slowed down option.  That option would be PreA.

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

But this is me making a lot of assumptions. If I knew more about the teachers and classmates and curriculum, it would help.

 

[Lecka]

My oldest took Algebra I in 9th grade.  As a Senior he can take Pre-Calculus or he can take College Algebra.

It was hard with him.  He is good at math, but he was not mature in 7th grade and was not going to meet the maturity expected for 8th grade.  It didn’t seem like it would be a good idea for him to do Algebra I in 8th grade.

He is in 10th grade and doing really well.  He is not advanced but he is very confident and I think he has a great foundation.

Just this year he is much more mature.

He was less mature when he was younger, he was not as mature or motivated compared to kids who were taking advanced math.  They were just noticeably more mature and motivated.  This year I think he is as mature and motivated as many classmates.  He was not in middle school.  

[Lecka]

Here is what I see locally?

For kids who start in advanced and then don’t stay really into math, they can take some classes that are medium classes.  I don’t quite understand this.  But like — you can take Algebra III instead of going straight into Pre-Calculus.  My son wouldn’t have time for this, but it can slow another kid down who wants to take Calculus their Senior year.  Or who ends up needing to slow down.

There are various ways to do this.  There are other options besides just going straight in order.  They can still work out to be taking Calculus as a Senior for someone who turns out not to want to accelerate more than that.  

[Drama Llama]

2 minutes ago, Lecka said:

My oldest took Algebra I in 9th grade.  As a Senior he can take Pre-Calculus or he can take College Algebra.

It was hard with him.  He is good at math, but he was not mature in 7th grade and was not going to meet the maturity expected for 8th grade.  It didn’t seem like it would be a good idea for him to do Algebra I in 8th grade.

He is in 10th grade and doing really well.  He is not advanced but he is very confident and I think he has a great foundation.

Just this year he is much more mature.

He was less mature when he was younger, he was not as mature or motivated compared to kids who were taking advanced math.  They were just noticeably more mature and motivated.  This year I think he is as mature and motivated as many classmates.  He was not in middle school.  

That's the track his oldest brother will be on, and I think it's a good fit for him.  My middle son did Algebra at 7 or 8, before he joined our family, so I wasn't involved in any decision making, but it was clearly the right decision for him, although we didn't have the issue of transferring credits back.  

 

[Lecka]

One of my nieces took Algerba in 6th or 7th grade and then she’s not a STEM focus high school student.  
 

They do have math classes set up for her to take math every year and still take — I don’t know exactly, but she’s not forced into staying on that track and taking Calculus in 10th grade.

She can take Statistics, she can take Algebra III, there are more things like that.  I don’t know much about it but I know it exists and works out for kids who were ready for advanced math in high school.

 

[Lecka]

You might be able to look at the high school class list and see if there are additional math classes.

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Lecka

[Lecka]

I feel a little confused about how a lot of advanced math works.  A lot more kids are advanced in early middle school, than end up being advanced in later high school.  

I think a lot of kids are not better off from rushing middle school and then stretching out high school. 

I think one of my nieces rushed too much and it didn't serve her as well maybe?  She completed Calculus but she was lost in it, and I don't think that is a good outcome to come from being advanced.  

Edit:  she completed Calculus, but when she took the placement test for college, she did not do that well on it and placed into College Algebra!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I think she was not the only one from her class, either.  

So it seems like there is something wrong there!  

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Lecka

[Sherry in OH]

 

12 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I guess I don't know that I consider that a terrible outcome.  Like if he bites off more than he can chew, or he realizes that competing with his cousin isn't worth giving up time running around in the back yard, then he's learned something about himself.  It's not like taking a class where you know some of the stuff is some terrible thing.   It just means your homework goes faster and you have more time to play.  

I feel like I'd like to provide a variety of resources, some of which would get him through PreAlgebra if he chooses to use them that way.  That part of the decision is easy.  I'm not going to tell him he can't do math.  

So, my question is do I tell him "and if you get through preAlgebra, then you can take Algebra 1"?   And if he goes to school, do I choose his school based on whether or not they offer Algebra 1 to sixth graders?  That's where I'm still undecided.  

I know that people care about their kids being on a faster track in middle school.  My sister in law clearly cares.  I'm just not sure why they want it.  

 

Why people care?

Because there are children like my youngest.  He completed AOPS Pre-Algebra in 5th grade.  Had we continued to homeschool, he would have started AOPS Intro to Algebra in 6th grade and taken as long as necessary to work through it.  Several factors led us to enroll him in public school 6th grade.  Our school district is supposedly one of the best in the state.  Algebra I in 6th grade was not an option.  6th grade math was a review of concepts he had mastered in 3rd grade.  His teacher ended up assigning him work on Dreambox and when he demonstrated that he really needed higher level work, Khan Academy instead of regular classwork.   She would occasionally give him pointers, but for the most part he was on his own.    (He is excelling at Algebra I as a 7th grader.)

I would sign your son up for Alcumus and Khan Academy.  Show him how the sites work and allow him access a few hours a week.  When he finishes his current year's math program, start him on the pre-Algebra program you would use if homeschooling next year.  Offer to stop when your school year would normally end.  If he wants to keep going great, let him continue at his own pace.  If he decides to stop, that is fine too.    

Choose the school that has the best overall fit for your son. If it is the school that offers Algebra I in 6th grade, have him take the math placement test.  Otherwise, tell him that he can study advanced math on his own.  Encourage him to join the school's math club and try out for his school's Math Counts team (if the school doesn't participate in Math Counts, lobby for them to start a team).   

 

[Lecka]

You probably know this -- but depending what Pre-Algebra you use, Common Core 8th grade math is not equivalent to traditional Pre-Algebra.  

It's kind-of strange.  

Edit:  I think the accelerated math track in middle school can be harder than just "take Pre-Algebra" if they are wanting to condense all the Common Core middle school math content.  

I think some places condense and cover everything.

I think some places do not cover all the 8th grade math topics and they just get covered in future math classes.  

Edited January 25, 2021 by Lecka

[Clemsondana]

I can see both sides of this.  There are benefits to getting through math earlier than usual - for insance, my older will do physics with calculus in 12th after finishing calculus in 11th, and we did fun classes like number theory and intro to probability in middle school.  But, that being said, we also had a problem when we tried to push through some of the pre-A stuff early.  We were using AoPS, which I'm sure contributed, but as was described above kid didn't have any problem with the concepts but hadn't developed the maturity to do a pre-A program readily - copying problems out of the book, organizing work, being attentive enough to not lose exponents or negative signs - all of those were problems.  At the same time, kid was able to intuit some sort of rule about cubes that took my husband a page of work to prove because kid 'liked to think about things like that when falling asleep at night'.  We ended up taking a longer path through pre-A, alg, and even alg 2 although it was largely due to using 2 different programs at the same time.  I decided that since we had time, there was no reason to move on until everything was super-solid because I worried that kid would forget it - teen brains are fascinating and unpredictable.  🙂   

One one hand, I'd potentially have some concern about telling a kid not to try for something challenging so I'd probably let my kid give pre-A a go and see how it went.  But, I do have concern that kids can often move ahead by doing 'well enough' and not really understand material.  I don't know if that's more likely when kids are younger or not - I know that sometimes there's a tendency to not hold students to the same standard because they are young, which is fine if they are homeschooled and you can be simultaneously making sure that they improve on carelessness or that weird thing they still don't get about fractions and also move ahead.  I think it leads to a lot of gaps for kids in school classes, though.  I know that there are things that I could easily do but couldn't have explained until I had to figure out how to explain them to my kids.  I know that in my own classes, the gap between a 100 and an 80 is large despite the gap between and A and B looking small.  I could see a teacher running preA for 6th graders differently than the same class for 8th graders because there is a huge maturity difference...or it could be the same, or it could be a mixed class.  Don't now if any of this is helpful - good luck!  

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Our district requires 4 years of math taken in high school.  So, he'd need to keep going anyway.  We have a fair amount of choice as far as HS (going through that process with his brother now), and knowing that he needed math past calculus would limit those choices, although I guess he could do something like AB, BC, and then AP Stats, which would be an option anywhere.  He could also do the IB program, and take HL.  Or he could choose one of the high schools that offers multivariable and/or linear algebra. 

Does IB really go much past normal stuff? My sister was in the IB program, and she seemed to max out at calculus, more or less. 

Stats is a good idea, though, and a fun subject. Would there be any other options after calculus? It really depends on the high school, I guess. There's certainly lots of possible math after calculus, anyway. But if there weren't good places to go after calculus, that'd affect my decision. 

 

1 hour ago, BaseballandHockey said:

There are four options if we decide to do Algebra.   One is that we could try to get him placed in the gifted STEM magnet in our district.  In that case, he'd be in a class of 6th and 7th graders, all considered gifted.  Since he hasn't taken any standardized tests in 4th or 5th, I'd need to pay for private testing this week, and if he scored high enough he'd be entered into a lottery for the spaces, so it's a long shot.  It would also mean he'd need to take the bus to school, which I don't love covid wise.  I haven't yet decided if we'll apply for him. 

Oof. That sounds rushed. 

 

1 hour ago, BaseballandHockey said:

The second option is that he'd go to our local public school, where the sixth graders taking algebra are mixed in with seventh and eighth graders.  So, the kids wouldn't be mathier, they'd just be older.  

Yeah, that doesn't sound great to me, either. Being mixed in with older kids isn't always good news, socially. 

 

1 hour ago, BaseballandHockey said:

The third option would be to send him back to the small private he was attending previously, which doesn't have either a PreA or an Algebra option in 6th.  There are covid reasons, and social reasons to do that.  If we did that, we could ask that he get pulled out to do something like Derek Owens, or do 6th grade math and other math after school.   Right now, this is his favorite idea.  

This would be a good option, I think, and would also mean that you weren't committed either way. How sure are you they'd be willing to let you pull him out, though? 

 

1 hour ago, BaseballandHockey said:

The fourth option would be homeschooling, which we'd only do if we felt unsafe about sending him to school due to covid.  I really hope it doesn't come to that.  If we did that, and he did Algebra, we'd need to do it in some way that we could document and apply for transfer credit, and that would prepare him to take the state test that he'd need to graduate.   

I think the easiest way to get around this would be to have paperwork you can wave around. So, taking some standardized test. 

 

1 hour ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Basically, all of these options would be Common Core, full high school speed.  There's not a slowed down option.  That option would be PreA.

If you homeschooled or did a pull out after school, you could do whatever you felt like, no? You could get him a tutor and work with him at whatever pace you set. Or is that not an option? 

[Not_a_Number]

20 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

We were using AoPS, which I'm sure contributed, but as was described above kid didn't have any problem with the concepts but hadn't developed the maturity to do a pre-A program readily - copying problems out of the book, organizing work, being attentive enough to not lose exponents or negative signs - all of those were problems. 

I would guess this really did have something to do with using AOPS pre-algebra, though. I don't necessarily recommend using programs designing for older kids with younger kids, because of the executive functioning issues that do tend to resolve with age. But as you say, the concepts themselves weren't the issue... 

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, Sherry in OH said:

IWhy people care?

Because there are children like my youngest.  He completed AOPS Pre-Algebra in 5th grade.  Had we continued to homeschool, he would have started AOPS Intro to Algebra in 6th grade and taken as long as necessary to work through it.  Several factors led us to enroll him in public school 6th grade.  Our school district is supposedly one of the best in the state.  Algebra I in 6th grade was not an option.  6th grade math was a review of concepts he had mastered in 3rd grade.  His teacher ended up assigning him work on Dreambox and when he demonstrated that he really needed higher level work, Khan Academy instead of regular classwork.   She would occasionally give him pointers, but for the most part he was on his own.    (He is excelling at Algebra I as a 7th grader.)

I would sign your son up for Alcumus and Khan Academy.  Show him how the sites work and allow him access a few hours a week.  When he finishes his current year's math program, start him on the pre-Algebra program you would use if homeschooling next year.  Offer to stop when your school year would normally end.  If he wants to keep going great, let him continue at his own pace.  If he decides to stop, that is fine too.    

Choose the school that has the best overall fit for your son. If it is the school that offers Algebra I in 6th grade, have him take the math placement test.  Otherwise, tell him that he can study advanced math on his own.  Encourage him to join the school's math club and try out for his school's Math Counts team (if the school doesn't participate in Math Counts, lobby for them to start a team).   

I guess that if the answer is that you wanted your kid to take Algebra in 6th, because they took Pre-Algebra in 5th, then I'd ask why they took Pre-Algebra in 5th?  

To be clear, I absolutely get that sometimes the answer is "because my kid really loves math".  Math was, quite possibly, my middle child's favorite thing in the world.  He did math because it brought him joy and was a powerful distractor for a kid who needed to be distracted from a really sucky life.  I did math with him, lots of math with him, because joining with someone you love who is doing something they love is an incredibly wonderful thing.  And the natural outcome of all that math was that he was far ahead.  I certainly don't regret that. 

I also understand, in families who intend to homeschool throughout, that it's easy to end up ahead with a bright kid, just because you schedule a certain amount of math in the day and they move through what they move through.  If my long term plan was to homeschool this kid, then I think we'd just put one foot in front of the other, and see where it leads us. If he gets in over his head, we'd just stop, and back up, or follow a rabbit trail. But we're not homeschoolers, we're crisis schoolers, and the plan is for him to go back.  So, I feel like I need to figure out what I think is best. 

My sister and brother in law, who I love and think are good parents, clearly think that being in Algebra in 6th is better than being in Algebra in 7th.  They are pushing hard to achieve that goal with my niece.   They've rearranged their schedules so that they can spend more time on math. They keeps pushing when she whines about the math.   They're also in the middle of a move and only looking at middle schools that would let her take Algebra in 6th.  It's a high priority for them, but when I asked them why they were kind of mystified by the question.  I think they think that it's so obvious that 6th is better than 7th that they can't articulate?  It's clear that they think that not only should I let him do this, I should make him do this.  

I feel like I have a pro and con list in my head.  The pro list, at this point, has one thing on it, which is that he wants it.  And maybe that's enough.  He's had a rough couple years.  All sorts of things he wants to do haven't been possible.  This is a chance to say yes to something, a thing that's actually covid safe, and within our budget, and can be accomplished while I'm working.  I just want to make sure I'm thinking through all the factors.  

Other than the fact that saying no to your kid in a pandemic is no fun, what do people see as pros?  

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Other than the fact that saying no to your kid in a pandemic is no fun, what do people see as pros?  

I think higher level math can be much more engaging and interesting. He'll have more time to absorb new concepts, and that can be absolutely crucial to not getting lost in all the new ideas in high school. If there are enough classes, he'll be able to do more fun math classes in high school after calculus -- statistics, probability, and linear algebra are actually classes that in my experience kids enjoy more than calculus. 

Also, a lot of things make more sense after calculus. Physics is best if your algebra is solid and you've taken calculus. And taking higher level math usually does solidify arithmetic for kids, since you're seeing things from a different angle. So the chances of him being ready for things requiring math are probably higher if he is accelerated... provided he's genuinely solid and ready, as opposed to "he has large gaps an has rushed ahead." 

 

1 hour ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I guess that if the answer is that you wanted your kid to take Algebra in 6th, because they took Pre-Algebra in 5th, then I'd ask why they took Pre-Algebra in 5th?  

Possibly because they were bored out of their gourd with arithmetic. DD8 never loved math the way your middle kiddo did, but she'd have been very, very bored with 6 years of arithmetic. I wanted her to keep liking math, and the way to do that was to keep moving forward. 

 

1 hour ago, BaseballandHockey said:

It's a high priority for them, but when I asked them why they were kind of mystified by the question.  I think they think that it's so obvious that 6th is better than 7th that they can't articulate? 

Hmmm. Well, they generally sound like much pushier parents than you, right? So I assume it's the "we should get as much out of the school system as we can" philosophy. I don't always agree with people like this, because the preferences of their kids can get pretty lost in the shuffle. On the other hand, it does probably lead to better prepared kids on average. But it's not how I personally run things. 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[wendyroo]

29 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

On the other hand, it does probably lead to better prepared kids on average. But it's not how I personally run things. 

I think this is the big gamble.

There certainly are kids that are going to ace algebra in 6th grade, continue to do well in each subsequent class, and end up taking more, higher math classes and being better prepared.

BUT, I think there is a not-insignificant group of kids who will take algebra in 6th, just barely keep their heads above water, and come out of the class with a superficial, procedural understanding. Which, 1) might severely dent their mathematical self-confidence making it less likely they will choose to engage with math beyond the minimum requirements, and 2) will set them up to struggle in later classes (which will further decrease their self-confidence and fuel the downward spiral).

It might look like these students are better prepared than on average, but I think many of them end up like Lecka's example above of a student who completed calculus in high school, but then tested into college algebra. That student was probably a really good test taker/pattern matcher/teacher pleaser, which allowed her to appear successful through higher and higher math, but is she actually better prepared than a student who took algebra in 9th, geometry in 10th, algebra 2 in 11th, pre-calc in 12th and actually learned all the material to the point that she was fully prepared to start calculus in college? I would argue that the "better prepared" student is going to the be one who takes it when he or she is ready to understand it deeply and conceptually, be that in 6th or 9th or taking two passes over two years to solidify their understanding.

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

On the other hand, it does probably lead to better prepared kids on average. But it's not how I personally run things. 

Prepared for what?

This is my kid who likes to make stuff, and play sports.  I assume that if he achieves his goal of being an NHL goalie, that whether or not he took multivariable calculus in 11th grade won't make a difference, so let's look at the other option.  Let's say he becomes an engineer, which is the mathiest of professions I think is likely for him.  In what ways would taking Algebra in 6th vs 7th vs 8th make a difference in his experience, or in the outcome? 

[Lori D.]

23 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

I think this is the big gamble.

There certainly are kids that are going to ace algebra in 6th grade, continue to do well in each subsequent class, and end up taking more, higher math classes and being better prepared.

BUT, I think there is a not-insignificant group of kids who will take algebra in 6th, just barely keep their heads above water, and come out of the class with a superficial, procedural understanding. Which, 1) might severely dent their mathematical self-confidence making it less likely they will choose to engage with math beyond the minimum requirements, and 2) will set them up to struggle in later classes (which will further decrease their self-confidence and fuel the downward spiral).

It might look like these students are better prepared than on average, but I think many of them end up like Lecka's example above of a student who completed calculus in high school, but then tested into college algebra. That student was probably a really good test taker/pattern matcher/teacher pleaser, which allowed her to appear successful through higher and higher math, but is she actually better prepared than a student who took algebra in 9th, geometry in 10th, algebra 2 in 11th, pre-calc in 12th and actually learned all the material to the point that she was fully prepared to start calculus in college? I would argue that the "better prepared" student is going to the be one who takes it when he or she is ready to understand it deeply and conceptually, be that in 6th or 9th or taking two passes over two years to solidify their understanding.

Agree.

That's why I suggested above "going wide", in the way that @wendyroodoes with a variety materials she listed above. Unless a homeschooling parent (or school teacher) is not only strong with math, but also *strong in how to teach math* and come at it from a variety of angles as the student is *ready* for higher concepts, I think there is a lot of potential for the scenarios @wendyroo suggests here.

But... I totally get that the OP does not have the time/ability/circumstances to pull off "going wide", or "digging deep" into exploring higher math concepts the way @Not_a_Number and other gifted math teachers on these boards can do.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Lori D.

[Not_a_Number]

18 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Prepared for what?

This is my kid who likes to make stuff, and play sports.  I assume that if he achieves his goal of being an NHL goalie, that whether or not he took multivariable calculus in 11th grade won't make a difference, so let's look at the other option.  Let's say he becomes an engineer, which is the mathiest of professions I think is likely for him.  In what ways would taking Algebra in 6th vs 7th vs 8th make a difference in his experience, or in the outcome? 

I think we all know NHL goalie isn't really a viable career goal 😉 . So yes, let's take a look at engineering. 

What I meant was obviously "prepared for college math," should he happen to need it. As for what difference it can make in his experience... well, seeing things earlier gives brains more of a chance to adjust to new ideas. And it's not just variables. For example, in algebra, the fraction patterns become clearer. Equations often have more than one thing on both sides in a way they don't in arithmetic. You have to really grapple with an equation is and isn't and use the equals sign in a relational way more often. 

I have the feeling you have a strong preconception that there IS no possible rational reason one might want to accelerate except for a kid's strong love of math. I disagree with that. I also disagree with the stance that it's the obvious answer for every kid. 

But with a kid who wanted to do it and seemed ready... yeah, I'd probably roll with it, and I'd assume that this does serve him well.

I really would make sure he's ready, though. And I'd make it clear to him that this is conditional on him seeming ready when you start. 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Not_a_Number