Can a learning disability be noticed in high school for the first time or is it something else?

[Mabelen]

My 16 year old started complaining last year that she was having trouble with learning. She was a late bloomer physically speaking and I simply thought it could be a matter of brain maturity. She has always been a very good student, organized, conscientious, and motivated to do well. She has always attended public school and there has been no change in that respect. She started having a tough time taking notes for her AP European History class last year. She says she finds it difficult to gauge what is important as well as making connections. According to her, she is working so much harder than her friends and getting much worse grades because she doesn’t seem able to grasp and retain the concepts as easily. Lately she notes that she is having a tough time focusing while reading and doing her work. She gets easily distracted. She says that she has gotten dumber and can’t really understand what she is reading a lot of the time.

She has always been very involved in extracurricular activities, marching band, water polo, swim, pit orchestra. She has always thrived keeping very busy. When covid hit, she did lose a lot and started feeling more and more down. Eventually she fell into a depression because all of the activities that she loved were gone while the academic demands remained, and distance learning was just bad. She started seeing a therapist a couple of months ago and just started seeing a psychiatrist as well. She is feeling much better now, but she is still spending an enormous amount of time and effort doing her school work. She said she needs three hours to do what her friends need one. APUSH is particularly taxing. 

Her therapist suggested to get her assessed for learning disabilities. My daughter wants help. When I contacted her school counselor she was surprised because my dd still has good grades (mostly As) even though she is taking difficult classes. Her school says the first step is to meet with the Intervention Assessment Team. When my daughter found out she felt very stressed at the thought of having to meet with her teachers to discuss her difficulties. I think she would feel fine if it was just the counselor and the psychologist. I am very confused with all of this.

Is any of this normal? Any ideas what could be going on?

[maize]

Yes a learning disability can first be recognized in high school--a kid who has been compensating through grade school may really struggle with the more challenging classes and schedule.

I think it is worth getting evaluations done.

I wonder if low working memory and/or low processing speed are issues.

Go to bat for her; schools tend to not want to intervene if the child is getting good grades but three hours to do work that most can do in one isn't a reasonable burden to bear.

Edited September 19, 2020 by maize

[maize]

This information may help:

https://www.specialmomadvocate.com/denied-an-iep/

[PeterPan]

So here's the thing. The ps is required, by federal law, to identify students with disabilities that affect their ability to access their education, not everything that is going on. She probably has ADHD. Maybe she has an SLD, but she probably at the very minimum has ADHD. If she was homeschooled before, you were probably compensating. She has done lots of things they would suggest, like staying active. 

So at this point what she's looking at is a 504. I would suggest you get *private* evals if possible, because they will be focused on giving you a more complete picture. The school is only going to identify things that affect her ability to access her education. Now sometimes school evals are surprising and they really pull out the stops and are helpful. But given that we're in covid and you have a dc who is doing pretty well, you're likely to get pretty trim information. So private evals would be more helpful. 

Hoagies Gifted keeps a list of psychs, and I would suggest starting there. You don't necessarily need a neuropsych, because you're not describing SLDs. You're describing ADHD in a gifted dc, and that's how it would look, yes. My dd was in that boat, very bright, with ADHD and some challenges. Evals gave her paper trail to use accommodations in college. They also explained a lot of the funky issues and helped her know herself better. You want someone who is going to take the time to do that. THEN when she has that information, she can use that to decide what she wants from the school. She might get a 504 for accommodations like extra time, the option to use tech instead of handwriting, etc. etc. Extra time is a BIG DEAL. It's what lets who she is show. If she's going to be taking the AP exams, her entire outcome revolves on being able to crank out those essays quickly. If she has a disability with processing speed, she'll need extra time to make that happen.

The psych can also connect you with resources for EF=executive function. You could look for an educational therapist to see what they could do for her. Depending on what all is going on, you could consider language testing with an SLP. There are things beyond meds that can be done here. You're describing sort of the tip of the ice berg and the question is just how much more is going on and what's going on. Sometimes it takes a few different people or some testing to sort that out. For instance, my dd had word retrieval issues that showed up in testing. Sometimes stuff isn't going to get them a label but it's a *relative weakness* that affects them dramatically and needs some compensation. 

Definitely research EF and educational therapists.

https://www.hoagiesgifted.org/psychologists.htm

Edited September 19, 2020 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

5 hours ago, Mabelen said:

When my daughter found out she felt very stressed at the thought of having to meet with her teachers to discuss her difficulties. I think she would feel fine if it was just the counselor and the psychologist. 

I'm not sure they would bring all the teachers. Usually that first meaning is just with a few people. You can google for your state's IEP process. Your state dept of ed will have that information, maybe with graphics and flow charts. The first step is usually a meeting where they consider your evidence and determine whether evals are warranted. If *evals* are warranted, then they are agreed to and a legally binding contract is signed saying who will eval. You have legal protections at that point for timeline. Then they have the meeting the review the evals by the team and they decide whether to write a 504 or IEP or stop. 

So the law specifies who has to be at each meeting, but no I wouldn't anticipate all the teachers appearing, hehe. For that initial meeting it may just be 2 or 3 people, like you're saying. And usually just one teacher at later meetings.

The thing to consider is that there is both normal nervousness and the potential for anxiety. What you could do over the next few days is see what your options are for private evals (funding, who you would want to do it). Psychs will usually call you back and talk with you for a bit. If you're going with the school, then I think just go forward with the process. In our state, they provide you with a form ahead of time (legally required) that tells you who will be at the meeting. You have the right to take an advocate or support person with you, and you have the right not to be intimidated. So if she would feel more comfortable with a 2nd parent or advocate along, you are allowed to bring these people. I've had IEP meetings with my ds where I've taken MULTIPLE people because they kept outnumbering me. 

It might be that private evals would help her through the self-discovery hurdle before she goes through the "comes out about using accommodations" hurdle. MANY kids struggle with owning up publicly about their disabilities. Nuts, many adults do. So there are kids who qualify for accommodations who DO NOT USE THEM because they are unwilling to ask the teacher or speak up or look different. Extended time for my dd meant using the testing service on campus. That meant she LOOKED DIFFERENT. Now there are really discreet ways to do it, but that's a pretty big deal for kids. So it's something to think through, how you get her there mentally to where she's ready to use what she has access to. Self-advocacy is a big thing for this. 

Depending on how this rolls out, it can also change where she goes to college. Now maybe not, but maybe. Some colleges are much better for accommodations than others. Some are downright antagonistic. 

So you've got a journey here. Just take the steps, one at a time, together. 

Edited September 19, 2020 by PeterPan

[EKS]

It is common for bright kids with learning disabilities to be missed until things get difficult enough that whatever they've been doing to compensate no longer works.  This can happen in fourth grade, middle school, high school, or even college.  Sometimes people don't find out they have a learning disability until their own child is diagnosed and they realize that they have the same difficulties--ask me how I know.

It's great that she's asking for help as a lot of teens would be resistant.  Definitely have her evaluated.  

[ElizabethB]

I would evaluate her reading. She may have been compensating and as reading got more difficult, it got harder.

My grade level test:

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/Resources/40L Test.pdf

Nonsense word test: 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/Resources/NonsenseWordTest.pdf

MWIA Version 3--should have no slowdown, should not miss a single word on either section. 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/Resources/The MWIA Version 3 new.pdf

To keep up with an AP class, she should be reading at a 12th grade level, if below that, or behind on the other 2 tests, I would work through my syllables program, do extra nonsense words if there is a slowdown on the MWIA or the reading rate or accuracy of nonsense words is low.

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

Edited September 20, 2020 by ElizabethB

[kbutton]

On 9/19/2020 at 4:35 AM, Mabelen said:

My 16 year old started complaining last year that she was having trouble with learning. She was a late bloomer physically speaking and I simply thought it could be a matter of brain maturity. She has always been a very good student, organized, conscientious, and motivated to do well. She has always attended public school and there has been no change in that respect. She started having a tough time taking notes for her AP European History class last year. She says she finds it difficult to gauge what is important as well as making connections. According to her, she is working so much harder than her friends and getting much worse grades because she doesn’t seem able to grasp and retain the concepts as easily. Lately she notes that she is having a tough time focusing while reading and doing her work. She gets easily distracted. She says that she has gotten dumber and can’t really understand what she is reading a lot of the time.

Her therapist suggested to get her assessed for learning disabilities. My daughter wants help. When I contacted her school counselor she was surprised because my dd still has good grades (mostly As) even though she is taking difficult classes. 

So, do see evidence of *potential* SLDs here in addition to potential ADHD. If it's ADHD alone, she might really thrive with extra help. Part of the tip off here is that she can maintain good grades, and she's organized, conscientious, etc. While not everyone with ADHD is disorganized, the fact that she is shows she could have another issue, or it could demonstrate that she has hit the point at which she can no longer compensate for or scaffold her ADHD without help.

I also think this could reflect kind of a crisis in development--as in, she's realizing that the level of thinking, processing, etc. in her studies isn't adequate, and this could be a symptom of an issue or ADHD, or it could be sort of the crisis before the breakthrough. I was a very good student, but I hit a point where the way my brain wanted to work started to conflict with how teachers tend to teach. I had never had to study before or work particularly hard, and eventually I also figured out that I am very much a big picture learner for more difficult concepts. I don't learn hard stuff in a step-by-step, linear manner, and I absolutely require an overview or else I cannot ask intelligent questions. The good news is that I did eventually learn how to do this, but it's still not a smooth process. It helped me a great deal to be in study groups during study hall. People knew me as a good student, so they would come to me to ask questions about homework. Ironically, in asking me questions, they'd inadvertently supply the missing pieces for me, and then we'd work it all together. 

The underlined stuff overlaps with symptoms my 2e kid had with language, but he hit that problem much earlier (he has ASD, ADHD, and is profoundly gifted). We didn't identify it as a language issue until he was in late middle school though--it presented like something that light intervention (some graphic organizers and a trip through The Reader's Handbook would solve), but he needed serious, serious niche work going back to very foundational concepts. At the same time, his issue was very narrow. I know someone else that had serious issues that were hidden with parental homework help and help from friends in college--I suspect it's a language issue for this person, and I am nearly positive this person has ADHD on top of that. I think it's a both/and in that case, but you'd never know from interacting that there was an issue. 

13 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

To keep up with an AP class, she should be reading at a 12th grade level, if below that, or behind on the other 2 tests, I would work through my syllables program, do extra nonsense words if there is a slowdown on the MWIA or the reading rate or accuracy of nonsense words is low.

If she isn't reading at that level, depending on what a psychologist uncovers, she could qualify for audio textbooks like dyslexic students do. You can obtain them regardless, but if you have a membership for the dyslexia sites, access is easier. 

I second Peter Pan on Hoagies' Gifted for people to test. Worry more about a good personal fit (experienced with gifted females who have ADHD and maybe language issues) who will run good tests and/or refer out for individual tests to round out the report than about whether it's a neuropsych, ed psych, etc. I have been less satisfied with the more qualified neuropsych who I eventually realized doesn't really believe in tricky 2e presentations and more satisfied with a "lifelong learner" ed psych committed to adding to her own diagnostic skills who definitely *gets* 2e kids and will refer out for things we need if she can't provide them--but she also puts the whole picture together. She also listens on follow up if a parent finds an excellent test or resource--she will get an evaluation copy of a test to decide if she finds the test helpful; she'll listen to what interventions have helped and incorporate those into her recommendations for other clients. She takes into consideration what resources are present and absent locally to focus her best efforts also.

[Storygirl]

Not that this is directly related to the original post (although.....maybe....), I just saw this article. Chris Rock has been diagnosed with Nonverbal Learning Disorder at age 55.

So, yes, it is possible to get a diagnosis after childhood.

NVLD is an interesting diagnosis for several reasons, one of which is that it is often not evident until the later school years. Another is that it is not often diagnosed, because it is not listed in the DSM, which is the manual psychologists follow when making diagnoses.

I'm musing a bit about it here, because I was surprised to see Chris Rock's diagnosis, and because my son has NVLD. And because there are some things in the OP that might be suggestive of NVLD, so @Mabelen, you might read a bit about it online to see if it strikes a bell with you.

People with NVLD have much higher scores on the verbal portions of IQ testing and lower scores on the nonverbal parts of the IQ testing, so the name means having trouble with nonverbals, not that the person is nonverbal (the name can be confusing). Students can have trouble with understanding concepts, reading comprehension, and mathematical reasoning. There are usually also social issues, whether mild (like social anxiety) or more severe.

I think there could be several things that could be causing the troubles you describe, and I agree with others that ADHD is on thing to consider. If she does get testing, look at the verbal score compared with the nonverbals (processing speed, visual spatial) to see if there is a discrepancy. Discrepancies on the WISC (IQ) scores can indicate learning challenges, but honestly, school psychologists sometimes don't always explain the scores well to parents, so be willing to research the tests they run and consider for yourself what the scores might indicate.

I hope that she overcomes her discomfort and agrees to talk to the school's intervention services, and that they offer good help. Sometimes the school is less willing to help students who have good grades, so if they suggest that there are no real issues, be ready to advocate.

[Guest]

Well, I was first DX'd with a "cognitive disorder NOS, Visual-Spatial processing" in GRADUATE school. As well as finally DX'd with dyspraxia. The first person in my school career to ever suggest that I might have a LD along with my motor skills and speech issues was my trigonometry teacher who was dyslexic. He picked up on the fact that I was able to do computations correctly, but didn't appear to be able to necessarily see the graphs correctly, and gave me some tricks that he uses to make his brain behave. 

 

In my case, I am kind of a classic 2e kid-I either hit the ceiling or barely register at all on subtests, but manage to average out as gifted for the ones that make up the FSIQ (and, based on my coursework in testing and evaluation, should never have been given a FSIQ because the spread is so wide). I was able to compensate-in my case, most of what is affected is visual materials requiring processing in multiple directions and dimensions at the same time. Maps are hard. Graphs are hard. I can get lost very easily. I cannot draw in perspective at all. I really don't see depth well. The neuropsych couldn't believe I was a music major, because I shouldn't be able to read music (but apparently my brain is able to read music notation directly as sound. I also process text as sound). Basically, my brain is really weird as to how it does things. 

 

And, realistically, I hit the stereotypes of "girls aren't good with directions" and "girls aren't good in math". So, I suspect my struggles there weren't considered a disability in part due to that. 

 

So yes, it is absolutely possible for gifted kids to miss DX and be able to get by. It was extremely validating to hear that not only had I not been underachieving, I had been, if anything, overachieving. And one reason why I have a math endorsement on my certificate is that I realized, in grad school, that my struggles would have been so much less had I been taught with the manipulatives, hands on approaches that were being taught to prospective teachers. I wanted to keep other kids from feeling like they were bad at math just because their brain needed that extra  layer to be able to understand what was going on. 

[kbutton]

On 9/21/2020 at 9:41 AM, dmmetler said:

Well, I was first DX'd with a "cognitive disorder NOS, Visual-Spatial processing" in GRADUATE school.

That sounds a bit like NVLD. Very interesting.

That reminds me--I have an extended family member that realized she was dyslexic while taking classes to teach in special education. 

[Lawyer&Mom]

I was Autistic and gifted and didn’t struggle academically until college.  Everything was easy for me until it wasn’t.  You compensate until you can’t.  I would be surprised at all that a 2E kid could hide it until high school.   Be glad you are catching this now so that you can get supports in place before college.  (I wasn’t diagnosed until I was 38.  My college struggles were just a mystery at the time.  Now they make total sense, and were largely preventable.)

[Mabelen]

On 9/19/2020 at 5:43 AM, maize said:

Yes a learning disability can first be recognized in high school--a kid who has been compensating through grade school may really struggle with the more challenging classes and schedule.

I think it is worth getting evaluations done.

I wonder if low working memory and/or low processing speed are issues.

Go to bat for her; schools tend to not want to intervene if the child is getting good grades but three hours to do work that most can do in one isn't a reasonable burden to bear.

What aspects of my dd's difficulties do you think would indicate low working memory and/or low processing speed? The time she needs to take to get through the readings and her work?

[Mabelen]

@PeterPan

On 9/19/2020 at 6:29 AM, PeterPan said:

The school is only going to identify things that affect her ability to access her education.

This is my worry. How do you define "ability to access her education"? She is taking the most difficult classes available at her school and still getting decent grades, so they could say that if anything is going on it is not affecting her ability to do so. How do I jump this hurdle? Does the fact that it is costing her so much effort matter at all?

 

On 9/19/2020 at 6:29 AM, PeterPan said:

She might get a 504 for accommodations like extra time, the option to use tech instead of handwriting, etc. etc. Extra time is a BIG DEAL.

Yes, realistically, a 504 is what I would think she may need.

Thank you for your insight on self discovery and self advocacy. Definitely pondering about what this all means for her in college. 

 

[Mabelen]

On 9/20/2020 at 1:11 PM, kbutton said:

but he needed serious, serious niche work going back to very foundational concepts

What assessments helped to figure out your son's issues? What kind of professional help did your son receive to resolve his language problems?

Something that she did once that seemed to help her process her reading was to read everything out loud in a British accent. She seemed to enjoy it, the only problem is that it was very time consuming so not really a solution. 

What you mention about the crisis before the breakthrough was kind of what I initially thought might be happening when she started talking about her difficulties, but now I can see it likely is more than that.

ADHD is a possibility because of her distractibility and lack of focus, but what is confusing is that she really is very organized and usually gets a lot done. My mom I suspect had ADD issues, as myself and my oldest too, but all of us are/were weak in executive functioning and organizational skills, very unlike her. 

[Mabelen]

On 9/20/2020 at 7:08 PM, Storygirl said:

there are some things in the OP that might be suggestive of NVLD

I will read about NVLD, what are the particular things that you feel are suggestive of NVLD?

Her standardised testing so far has shown her slightly stronger in reading and language arts than math but not much more. She did have some difficulties in Honors Pre Calc last year (got a B), but she was not devoting enough time to practicing due to her extracurricular involvement.

[Mabelen]

On 9/21/2020 at 6:41 AM, dmmetler said:

I was first DX'd with a "cognitive disorder NOS, Visual-Spatial processing" in GRADUATE school

Wow! Did you receive accomodations? 

 

On 9/21/2020 at 6:41 AM, dmmetler said:

The neuropsych couldn't believe I was a music major, because I shouldn't be able to read music (but apparently my brain is able to read music notation directly as sound

Fascinating! My dd loves to play several instruments and receives praise because of her musicality, but she does not like sight reading music and finding patterns in compositions.

[PeterPan]

8 hours ago, Mabelen said:

What aspects of my dd's difficulties do you think would indicate low working memory and/or low processing speed? The time she needs to take to get through the readings and her work?

We see it because our kids had it. It's part of the IQ testing a psych does. They crank out lots of subtest scores, and you can have a *disability* when your processing speed is significantly discrepant from your IQ. They use "standard deviations" to help you see if the difference is significant. In IQ testing like the WISC, one SD is 20 points. So you'll be able to see it in the scores. It can get them a 504 in high school and accommodations in college. Makes a HUGE difference.

8 hours ago, Mabelen said:

This is my worry. How do you define "ability to access her education"? She is taking the most difficult classes available at her school and still getting decent grades, so they could say that if anything is going on it is not affecting her ability to do so. How do I jump this hurdle? Does the fact that it is costing her so much effort matter at all?

The school will eval, and if you're lucky they'll do the full IQ and achievement testing, give her an ADHD screener, maybe screen for OT if writing is hard. Sometimes the ps does shorter screener testing rather than the full IQ testing. So that's why we say that you'll learn MORE if you go privately. But no, I think you'll get a 504 and make things happen even if you start with the school. If you can make private evals happen, start there and THEN go to the ps.

8 hours ago, Mabelen said:

Definitely pondering about what this all means for her in college. 

One step at a time. First get the evals, see what's going on. As she learns about herself, she'll know what she wants/needs in college. We've had different kids here on the boards sort it out different ways, so it's not just one answer. It's really her looking at where she wants to go, what they offering, and sorting it out. She'll be fine. Seriously.

You know, that was one of the BEST parts about evals. I was so worried about things, and both times we did full psych evals on my dd the psychs were very complimentary and said that while she would need accommodations she'd be FINE. And she has been fine! So it might be good for you to hear this. 

7 hours ago, Mabelen said:

What assessments helped to figure out your son's issues? What kind of professional help did your son receive to resolve his language problems?

Something that she did once that seemed to help her process her reading was to read everything out loud in a British accent. She seemed to enjoy it, the only problem is that it was very time consuming so not really a solution. 

I'm not kbutton, but I'll bite. You have a couple things there. One, for the question of NVLD they read the tea leaves on the IQ testing the psych does. They look for that significant discrepancy. There's a characteristic pattern to it. So having things show up in the psych eval that are odd can lead you to decide to do further testing. The further testing would be with an SLP. They can do testing for narrative language, pragmatics, etc. Sometimes odd things show up that you aren't expecting. 

Take things one step at a time. Your first step is to sort out how you can make evals happen. Private evals vs. ps. If you are going through the ps, then the key is to get your ducks in a row on what you're requesting BEFORE you go to the first meeting, because at that first meeting they agree to eval and have you sign a legal document *limiting* and defining what areas will be evaled. So if you're going ps, you need to find your evidence for SLP/language evals and sort that out sooner. Once that doc is signed, they will dig in their heels like a donkey about adding more areas. 

Here's an article to get you started. https://www.smartspeechtherapy.com/what-does-their-social-skills-are-just-fine-really-means-when-it-comes-to-children-with-language-impairment/  The SLP behind this blog is obsessively thorough. The challenge with SLP evals is that many SLPs, including in the ps, WILL NOT OWN THE TESTS. So you get an SLP who isn't helpful, and it's because they literally don't own the tests it would take to do it. So boning up on how this works and what you're looking for can help you find the right person. Otherwise, you're just nice people spinning your wheels together.

So I'll give you a nasty example. The ps will typically run the CELF as a screener for language. Kid passes CELF and they say move on, nothing to see here. It's a screener that hits a lot of areas and it's WELL KNOWN to have sensitivity issues, meaning it UNDERIDENTIFIES higher functioning kids with disabilities. And you know why? The stinkin test has multiple choice and provides models!!! Bright kids can fake that out. 

So it takes specialized tests to identify kids with more subtle difficulties, and that takes finding the right SLP. I'm with Kbutton and the others that I'm all for testing. I'm just saying take your time to know what you're looking for and find the person. It's like medical problems or anything else. You don't seem to get the right help till you figure out for yourself what's wrong and find the person who knows how to solve it, lol. 

7 hours ago, Mabelen said:

ADHD is a possibility because of her distractibility and lack of focus, but what is confusing is that she really is very organized and usually gets a lot done. My mom I suspect had ADD issues, as myself and my oldest too, but all of us are/were weak in executive functioning and organizational skills, very unlike her. 

Compensation. She's so bright she's using strategies. 

7 hours ago, Mabelen said:

I will read about NVLD, what are the particular things that you feel are suggestive of NVLD?

Did we give you the link for Hoagies Gifted? I STRONGLY suggest you look there for a psych or at least take your time in choosing a psych. There's nothing more frustrating that doing evals and realizing the first person you went to didn't take enough time to tease everything out. 

Does she have any issues with anxiety, social thinking, taking perspectives, gaining or maintaining friendships (not acquaintances but friendships), developmental differences like being slower to acquire motor skills or later to do some things than her peers?

Just for trivia, have you had her eyes checked? I would probably, and this is just me, take her to a *developmental optometrist* which you can find through COVD, get a normal annual vision appointment, and just ask them to *screen* for developmental vision stuff. You'd like to make sure there's not a *visual processing* issue going on underlying her need to read aloud to process. 

Sometimes evals are about eliminating things, and I'm just saying that's one I would do. Not the whole $$ developmental vision eval unless they screen and say yes something is up. 

Does she have anything weird with textures, sensory, discomfort with sitting, or other things about her body? Difficulty physically writing? 

[ElizabethB]

12 hours ago, Mabelen said:

Something that she did once that seemed to help her process her reading was to read everything out loud in a British accent. She seemed to enjoy it, the only problem is that it was very time consuming so not really a solution. 

A lot of my students do better with comprehension when they read aloud.  Even a small accuracy difference in word level reading can make a big difference in comprehension. You are forced to read more accurately and more from sounds when you read aloud.

Given this, I would actually instead do the quick screen reading test, the nonsense word test, and the full MWIA II.  She should not miss more than 1 word on either section of the MWIA II and should not have a slowdown, the words on p. 7 - 8, you do not have to do the "Vote" reading.

http://www.donpotter.net/pdf/mwia.pdf

Here is an article explaining how a small loss of accuracy can make a big difference:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/measuring-reading-liz-brown/

If she is reading accurately, I do have comprehension suggestions, but I have had many students who did not have decoding fully automated, their "comprehension" problems cleared up after their decoding accuracy improved--and it was small, just 2 to 6 words missed out of 220, but my good readers read all 220 phonetic words correctly, occasionally 1 misread due to carelessness, but never more than 1.

I remediated these students with my syllables lessons and a lot of nonsense words, there are extra nonsense words on my syllables page.

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

 

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by ElizabethB

[kbutton]

16 hours ago, Mabelen said:

What assessments helped to figure out your son's issues? What kind of professional help did your son receive to resolve his language problems?

Something that she did once that seemed to help her process her reading was to read everything out loud in a British accent. She seemed to enjoy it, the only problem is that it was very time consuming so not really a solution. 

What you mention about the crisis before the breakthrough was kind of what I initially thought might be happening when she started talking about her difficulties, but now I can see it likely is more than that.

ADHD is a possibility because of her distractibility and lack of focus, but what is confusing is that she really is very organized and usually gets a lot done. My mom I suspect had ADD issues, as myself and my oldest too, but all of us are/were weak in executive functioning and organizational skills, very unlike her. 

In my son's case, he mostly struggled with narrative language, and the test for that is the TNL--Test of Narrative Language. He also had some issues with linking his language centers to problem solving and critical thinking. His nonverbal problem solving and critical thinking were excellent (he maxed out the IQ test), but he would get stuck with the language and not really have a base criteria for formulating what the problem or crux of something was to decide what was most important. The materials we use have a copyrighted chart that shows the different areas of language development in a series of mind maps. It includes several circles with spokes of related concepts off of those spokes. My son would have a spoke here, a spoke there all over the place, but it was really the narrative stuff that was a trial.

The materials we used to remediate are from Mindwing Concepts, and they are meant for a wide variety of language issues. They build on narrative language, but they take language development right on through to the discourse level. The materials are structured to help a child go through all the levels of critical thinking, and some of the products map this out. More on that in a minute.

So, we had access to intervention specialists even before we found the language issue, but no one could really break through. We also had an "aide" that worked with him, and really pinpointed a lot of issues, but she didn't have access to therapy materials. She also moved on. Then we started using an SLP after we got testing (the TNL was run by a psychologist because none of the SLPs had it). The SLP was able to start getting things to budge, but she moved on. By then the "aide," who is really a friend who has all the skills but not the specific degree to be an interventionist (she has multiple degrees in other things and kids with SN and is just brilliant in general at this stuff), was able to step back in, and she just took off with the Mindwing products. Once she was familiar with them, specifically with a product called Deepening Discourse, she was able to use both the Mindwing products and stuff she finds or makes on her own to work with him. The steps in his progress since then have been spread apart in Fibonnaci sequence-sized leaps. Progress was small and tight, and now every new concept pushes him farther ahead than the previous steps. It's been exciting to say the least!

I would check out these materials: https://mindwingconcepts.com/products/academic-conversations-bundle (at least the Deepening Discourse packet that can be purchased for less). Don't hesitate to call the company as well--they might be able to direct you to an SLP that uses these materials to help out or to do testing for you. 

You might also want Thememaker. 

This link shows you a bit how the thinking levels come together, and everything is keyed to Bloom's Taxonomy and Webb's Depth of Knowledge: https://mindwingconcepts.com/products/discourse-and-thought-development-chart-wheel?_pos=6&_sid=2a0182bf5&_ss=r

So, the accent thing...my son used to do that in elementary school, but he had a whole host of accents he'd bring out, lol! Basically what reading out loud did for him was to help him hear the emphasis from a passage of text. He is an extremely fluent reader (was reading at high school level by third grade), and he used punctuation cues to read with expression. He'd make a sensational reader for audible, lol! Anyway, he couldn't absorb main ideas and details and subordinate details to the main ideas without hearing the expression audibly. Even then, he was kind of shaky. We actually signed him up for one of the audio textbook services, but they don't use real voices, and that was a clue to the fact that he was taking meaning cues from expression. A boardie, Lecka, keyed me in on what specifically was up as I guess it's a "thing" sometimes with autism.

Mindwing products have helped solve the problem with subordinating ideas, using critical thinking, etc. When you mention that APUSH is the hardest thing for her, it might be a clue to her weak areas since history has a lot of big picture, narrative, and intertwined concepts that all revolve around problems, solutions, etc. 

8 hours ago, PeterPan said:

The challenge with SLP evals is that many SLPs, including in the ps, WILL NOT OWN THE TESTS. So you get an SLP who isn't helpful, and it's because they literally don't own the tests it would take to do it. So boning up on how this works and what you're looking for can help you find the right person. Otherwise, you're just nice people spinning your wheels together.

So it takes specialized tests to identify kids with more subtle difficulties, and that takes finding the right SLP. I'm with Kbutton and the others that I'm all for testing. I'm just saying take your time to know what you're looking for and find the person. It's like medical problems or anything else. You don't seem to get the right help till you figure out for yourself what's wrong and find the person who knows how to solve it, lol. 

Compensation. She's so bright she's using strategies. 

Did we give you the link for Hoagies Gifted? I STRONGLY suggest you look there for a psych or at least take your time in choosing a psych. There's nothing more frustrating that doing evals and realizing the first person you went to didn't take enough time to tease everything out. 

Yep!!!

 

[kbutton]

On being organized...if she really thrives on routine or likes it, that can be motivation enough to be organized in at least some realms.

Also, you can have both strong and weak areas of executive functioning. My son with the most classic signs of ADHD is the one with ASD also (and he's not hyper--he's distracted and impulsive). He's very organized, and he has a LOT of good EF skills. But he's impulsive and inattentive in spades without meds. The others in my house with ADHD are more of the distracted, wander away, lose things, don't know where to start a task, off with the fairies sort of ADHD. They would lose body parts if those parts weren't connected. 

Some is also personality and motivation. My organized kiddo MUST have order and consistency, so he makes it. He was that way from the time he was tiny.

Not all ADHD is the same, lol! 

[Storygirl]

On 9/19/2020 at 4:35 AM, Mabelen said:

My 16 year old started complaining last year that she was having trouble with learning. She was a late bloomer physically speaking and I simply thought it could be a matter of brain maturity. She has always been a very good student, organized, conscientious, and motivated to do well. She has always attended public school and there has been no change in that respect. She started having a tough time taking notes for her AP European History class last year. She says she finds it difficult to gauge what is important as well as making connections. According to her, she is working so much harder than her friends and getting much worse grades because she doesn’t seem able to grasp and retain the concepts as easily. Lately she notes that she is having a tough time focusing while reading and doing her work. She gets easily distracted. She says that she has gotten dumber and can’t really understand what she is reading a lot of the time.

She has always been very involved in extracurricular activities, marching band, water polo, swim, pit orchestra. She has always thrived keeping very busy. When covid hit, she did lose a lot and started feeling more and more down. Eventually she fell into a depression because all of the activities that she loved were gone while the academic demands remained, and distance learning was just bad. She started seeing a therapist a couple of months ago and just started seeing a psychiatrist as well. She is feeling much better now, but she is still spending an enormous amount of time and effort doing her school work. She said she needs three hours to do what her friends need one. APUSH is particularly taxing. 

Her therapist suggested to get her assessed for learning disabilities. My daughter wants help. When I contacted her school counselor she was surprised because my dd still has good grades (mostly As) even though she is taking difficult classes. Her school says the first step is to meet with the Intervention Assessment Team. When my daughter found out she felt very stressed at the thought of having to meet with her teachers to discuss her difficulties. I think she would feel fine if it was just the counselor and the psychologist. I am very confused with all of this.

Is any of this normal? Any ideas what could be going on?

 

17 hours ago, Mabelen said:

I will read about NVLD, what are the particular things that you feel are suggestive of NVLD?

Her standardised testing so far has shown her slightly stronger in reading and language arts than math but not much more. She did have some difficulties in Honors Pre Calc last year (got a B), but she was not devoting enough time to practicing due to her extracurricular involvement.

The whole passage that I highlighted in bold in your OP suggests NVLD to me.

*The fact that the learning struggles are showing up now instead of early in school is a hallmark factor for NVLD
*Working harder than classmates but achieving less. People with NVLD have trouble with performance. Often they can seem to understand something, but the understanding is only on the surface level.
*They can see all of the details but have trouble connecting them to understand the whole picture. This makes note taking very hard, because they don't know how to distinguish the important concepts from the less important details. My son with NVLD struggles greatly with taking notes and finding relevant info in notes.
* Not understanding concepts is a major factor with the NVLD profile.
* Forgetting concepts -- my son forgets material that he does not constantly practice.
* Having trouble understanding what she reads -- reading comprehension is extremely common with NVLD. There are layers of reasons for this, but part of it is the trouble with discriminating details from the main point (as I mentioned above).

There is a lot I could say about NVLD, but I will highlight a few things. People with NVLD have higher verbal scores on IQ testing than performance or visual spatial scores, so it can be "seen" in the scoring when testing is done. But many people will not diagnose NVLD, so knowing what pattern to look for yourself can be important. Everyone is different, but some common characteristics for NVLD are listed below.

* Early academic success/progress seems fine, but problems show up in middle school or later. Rote learning (common in the early years) can come easily, but seeing connections between ideas, understanding more complex concepts, being able to take facts that have been learned and synthesize them to answer essay questions, and so on.... these things are hard. And these skills are required in the higher grades of school but not so much in the lower grades, so the disability becomes more obvious the older the student is.

* NVLD sometimes brings trouble in math. My son's math disability was described as "inability to apply previously learned material to novel concepts." So he cannot master and build on his previous math knowledge. When he was little, he seemed to catch on to math easily; by fifth grade, he was lagging; and now that he is in high school, he cannot master the higher level math. Now, his NVLD is severe, and many with NVLD are just BETTER at language skills than at math. So math might be hard but not impossible (it's at an impossible level for DS now, but it will not be that way for everyone with NVLD).

*NVLD students often have trouble with reading comprehension. There is a lot to unpack about WHY this is that I won't go into, because it would mean writing a book. I mentioned a few things about this already. The reading comprehension is a particular problem, because in highly academic classes, reading at a high level is expected. One of the things that can cause problems is having trouble with inference and other figures of speech that are not concrete language. Being able to tell what a text or story is saying, is harder when the reading level of the text is higher, because of the sophistication of the language structure; if it is not straightforward, it can be hard for people with NVLD to interpret.

* NVLD students often have some social difficulty. PeterPan asked some questions relevant to this in one of her previous posts. Social skills does not mean not having friends; it's complex and relates to communication. People with NVLD have trouble reading nonverbal expression by others (facial expressions, tone of voice, etc), and some say that 65% of communication is nonverbal, so people like my DS miss A LOT that others naturally just pick up on. This affects social interactions in myriad ways. DS has had intervention for social skills in his IEP for years, and the person who works with him is a speech therapist, because, again, social is connected to communication. This is another whole topic of its own, but you can google social skills and NVLD and read about it.

I could go on. But that's a start. A few more thoughts in the next post.

[Storygirl]

A few more thoughts about things you mention in your OP.

You mention delayed early speech. That can suggest autism spectrum. DS had delayed speech, and he eventually got an autism diagnosis at age 15 (his NVLD diagnosis came earlier, at age 10). Many of the things I describe about NVLD can also be issues for kiddos with autism. Some people believe that NVLD is not its own thing but is part of the autism spectrum. It can sometimes resemble what used to be called Aspergers.

If she does get testing, and if her score suggests the NVLD learning profile, you might think about whether an evaluation for autism might be something to consider. I don't necessarily see you describing autism specifically in your OP, but the things that you describe can indeed be learning issues for some people on the spectrum, so it's just something to ponder. You may never have wondered about autism, and it may not be a concern of yours, but I wanted to mention it, since ASD and NVLD have some cross over criteria.

The thing about NVLD that is not always the case for autism is that split with the high verbal scores and lower performance/visual spatial scores on the IQ testing. NVLD is a visual spatial disorder, whereas some people with autism have great visual spatial abilities.

Not being able to easily decipher symbols is related to visual spatial scoring on the IQ testing. I notice that your daughter is musical but doesn't like to read sheet music. Music symbols can be tough to read. My son is very talented with music but mostly plays by ear and does not fully read sheet music, either.

The visual spatial disability of NVLD can make it harder to read charts and graphs and do geometry. It can be difficult to learn to drive. Often there is a fine motor difficulty that can affect writing. *I don't think I mentioned, but the critical thinking issues related to NVLD can affect writing.*

Okay, the other things I wanted to mention are ADHD -- the inattention and lack of focus could be ADHD, especially since you have a family history. I'd say it's good to think about looking into that. Sometimes kids with ADHD have greater difficulty once the academics become more challenging.

I also think that ElizabethB has a great point about making sure the decoding is on level. I also have a daughter with dyslexia, and needing to have the brain work hard at decoding can definitely make work go slower and reading comprehension harder.

Working memory is like the brain's whiteboard -- being able to hold multiple pieces of information in the brain while also doing the thinking about them -- it can be taxed at higher academic levels in ways that it was not in lower grades. This can affect note-taking, for sure.

If she has a 504, she can get copies of teachers' notes, if needed. Some schools are willing to give accommodations before doing evaluations or writing a 504, just to see what helps the student. Some schools will not. But if you have a caring school and caring teachers, you could ask if there are things the teachers can do to help and support her while you wait for the evaluation process (which can take months -- there is a legal timeline for this, which you also should look into).

Processing speed affects EVERYTHING so it was mentioned by Maize. It's another whole discussion, but if the brain is slower at processing information, that will make schoolwork in general harder across the board.

[Storygirl]

I know it feels like we are throwing out a lot of things at you. It takes time to ponder all of this information, and that's normal. It's normal to feel overwhelmed. And the truth is that none of us knows; it will take testing to sort out the answers, and we are just throwing out some things that could explain the symptoms that you mentioned.

But I think it's great that you are helping her and not falling into the idea that since she has always been a good student, that her problem is that she just needs to try harder.

If you browse back through old threads on the LC board, you can find huge long threads on things like reading comprehension and processing speed that can tell you more than what has been outlined for you here.

Oh, one more thing to look into -- Pragmatics. It's about the social use of language and is related to a lot of what we've written. You can google pragmatics and social skills and see if you see anything that might sound like a skill your daughter has trouble with. This can be helpful, because there is so much more to social skills than we realize.

[kbutton]

Since you're getting a lot of information, I would encourage you to consider evaluations. We can armchair this all day, but it takes someone with experience and testing capabilities to tease it all out.

Some possible scenarios could be as simple as ADHD with or without low processing that could be fixed by some time with an intervention specialist, education therapist, tutor, etc. Another scenario could be multiple diagnoses. You just never know, but if she's surviving in an advanced academic environment but identifying areas of struggle, it means that she's likely to be extremely responsive to getting the right kind of assistance. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

You mention delayed early speech.

Whoa, how did I miss this??? Op said delayed early speech? Oh my, all bets are off. This definitely could be an iceberg situation where a kid has been masking stuff and is finally getting maxed out.

@Mabelen I don't know how I missed that. Yes, if your dd had delayed speech and is now complaining of subtle, hard to pin down language processing issues, you want to be doing evals. I would do EVERYTHING. Get the referrals, make it happen. Now is the time. 

SLP--narrative language (TNL), TOPS=Test of Problem Solving, something for pragmatics, anything they will do for you. You're going to have to find the right SLP because this is not run of the mill stuff. You've clearly got a high IQ kid so it's going to take nuanced testing to tease out the issues. Don't skip/skimp on the pragmatics. 

OT--Do this, even though you don't think you need to. Find someone who specializes in sensory, ADHD, and autism. You want her screened for sensory issues, VMI (visual motor integration), midline issues, retained reflexes. If you can, see if someone has the Interoception Assessment by Kelly Mahler and get that done. https://www.kelly-mahler.com

Vision--Take her to a developmental optometrist, get her eyes screened

Psychologist--Full evals where they put EVERYTHING on the table. Honestly, many kids who have that NVLD profile will also tip to ASD in the DSM5. https://www.socialthinking.com/Articles?name=social-thinking-social-communication-profile  You might find this article helpful. Don't get caught up in the DSM names or what you think/hope is or is not happening. 

She's asking for help and in the end the best way to get her there is to start doing evals and keep doing them till you have a more complete picture. These are things people end up pursuing even as adults if they don't get done in childhood. It's not like the issues GO AWAY or stop being issues because she's done with school. They'll still be there and the subtle challenges will still be there. So the best way to help her is to get the right words so she can find her best options and best ways to deal with it. I pursued my own psych evals  (and vision and OT issues) as an adult, so I can tell you that even for exceptionally high functioning, seemingly awesome, great, high achieving people, those issues are just there, nagging. The BEST GIFT is thorough evals and the right words for it.

[Storygirl]

25 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Whoa, how did I miss this??? Op said delayed early speech? Oh my, all bets are off. This definitely could be an iceberg situation where a kid has been masking stuff and is finally getting maxed out.

 

I missed it, too at first, but I highlighted the comment in bold, below. I think at first I interpreted it as being late blooming physically. But then she says "brain maturity," so I thought she must mean speech delay.

I could be wrong?

On 9/19/2020 at 4:35 AM, Mabelen said:

My 16 year old started complaining last year that she was having trouble with learning. She was a late bloomer physically speaking and I simply thought it could be a matter of brain maturity. She has always been a very good student, organized, conscientious, and motivated to do well. She has always attended public school and there has been no change in that respect. She started having a tough time taking notes for her AP European History class last year. She says she finds it difficult to gauge what is important as well as making connections. According to her, she is working so much harder than her friends and getting much worse grades because she doesn’t seem able to grasp and retain the concepts as easily. Lately she notes that she is having a tough time focusing while reading and doing her work. She gets easily distracted. She says that she has gotten dumber and can’t really understand what she is reading a lot of the time.

She has always been very involved in extracurricular activities, marching band, water polo, swim, pit orchestra. She has always thrived keeping very busy. When covid hit, she did lose a lot and started feeling more and more down. Eventually she fell into a depression because all of the activities that she loved were gone while the academic demands remained, and distance learning was just bad. She started seeing a therapist a couple of months ago and just started seeing a psychiatrist as well. She is feeling much better now, but she is still spending an enormous amount of time and effort doing her school work. She said she needs three hours to do what her friends need one. APUSH is particularly taxing. 

Her therapist suggested to get her assessed for learning disabilities. My daughter wants help. When I contacted her school counselor she was surprised because my dd still has good grades (mostly As) even though she is taking difficult classes. Her school says the first step is to meet with the Intervention Assessment Team. When my daughter found out she felt very stressed at the thought of having to meet with her teachers to discuss her difficulties. I think she would feel fine if it was just the counselor and the psychologist. I am very confused with all of this.

Is any of this normal? Any ideas what could be going on?

 

[Mabelen]

Sorry, guys! When I said she was a late bloomer physically speaking, I meant in terms of puberty. She had her first period at 15 after her high school freshman year. She hit all childhood milestones normally. The only thing that was noticed in elementary school -around 1st grade- was that for a while she had a minor speech disfluency, like she would need to pause for a breath in the middle of a word sometimes. She was evaluated, didn’t qualify for any services and grew out of it. She was later found to have mild asthma, so we don’t know if that was a factor for her speech issue. She grew up bilingual with me using Spanish as my mother tongue, and my husband English as his main language (his mother tongue is a South Asian language but was raised trilingual from birth). She started Kindergarten recognizing some letters and sounds, and then she had a massive explosion in reading around her 6th birthday and was moved to the advanced reading group where she stayed the rest of Elementary.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Mabelen

[PeterPan]

9 hours ago, Mabelen said:

I meant in terms of puberty. She had her first period at 15 after her high school freshman year. She hit all childhood milestones normally.

I think 14/15 is pretty common around the world, especially where they're eating less processed diets. The xenoestrogens in the american processed meats drive early menarche. At least that's what I've read. There can be other reasons, but it's considered a factor. So my international friends from college were all saying 14-ish. Same when I went to Russia. 

So it may have just been a sign that you were eating well.   Was the doctor concerned? I'm trying to remember, but I think my dd was around 13/14. She was old enough that she just took care of it. (already shopping for her own stuff, etc.)  

[Mabelen]

6 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I think 14/15 is pretty common around the world, especially where they're eating less processed diets. The xenoestrogens in the american processed meats drive early menarche. At least that's what I've read. There can be other reasons, but it's considered a factor. So my international friends from college were all saying 14-ish. Same when I went to Russia. 

So it may have just been a sign that you were eating well.   Was the doctor concerned? I'm trying to remember, but I think my dd was around 13/14. She was old enough that she just took care of it. (already shopping for her own stuff, etc.)  

The average in the US is 12.5 years, with 90% of all girls already menstruating by 13.75 years of age. She was 15.5 when she had hers and was the only one she knew like that. My oldest had hers a couple of months before she turned 14. The doctor was not concerned but my dd was. We were a bit concerned about her height for a bit, but test results showed there was nothing wrong. Her height basically stayed the same during most of middle school, then started growing again at the end of 8th grade and through 9th grade. That’s really what I meant. She still looked like a little girl in middle school while all the other girls were already full blown women.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Mabelen

[morgan]

My oldest daughter was struggling in high school in an early college program. She ended up in counseling and eventually tested and diagnosed with ADD and a nonverbal learning disorder. She was 17. We felt terrible. We didn't associate her behaviors with ADD, as they weren't the typical hyper active symptoms we usually hear about. And we had never even heard of NVLD before, so that was a complete shock. She did find a medication that helped with her attention, but the diagnosis of a NVLD was really devastating for her. And there aren't a lot of resources for it. So, yes older teens and adults definitely do get diagnosed with learning disabilities. 

[Guest]

On 9/24/2020 at 12:43 AM, Mabelen said:

Wow! Did you receive accomodations? 

 

Fascinating! My dd loves to play several instruments and receives praise because of her musicality, but she does not like sight reading music and finding patterns in compositions.

I already qualified for accommodations because of a DX on cerebral palsy and communications disorder. Mostly, note taking, test accommodations, an elevator key, and registration without having to wait in long lines. Prior notice of assignments requiring verbal response was a big thing on my IEP in high school, but largely a non-issue In college and grad school. The additional DX’s didn’t change much.