So help me - make a character book suggestion

[BlsdMama]

I'm at my wit's end...  And I honestly can't believe I'm saying this after parenting almost a dozen children.

We have a Mary/Laura scenario playing out here (Little House books) in that I have a "perfect" little girl and I have a rambunctious and creative little boy.  They are just turned 6 & 7.  DD really is the best behaved little girl - everything comes easy to her.  She is adorable, has that perky personality that people respond to, academic things are easy, manners are easy... As thus, she is becoming a monster.  :P  😉

DS is quick thinking and quick to act- impulsive, creative, and often in trouble as little boys generally are, lol.  

I'm on bicker #234 for the morning and I am exhausted.  Currently, both are at the table with me.  One chose to eat with legos.  SMH - WHY? As in he chose to use a lego to scoop yogurt into his mouth.  Obviously she tattled.  Obviously I SAW.  Now it's, "Mom... he..."  And, as he finished his yogurt, she peeked in his bowl, scraped the sides, then told him he didn't eat it all.  

Is he generally the stinker? Sure he is.  And we address it.  But so help me on the tattle taling. We are working to nip it in the bud every time.  (You know, between teaching physics, chem, algebra, writing... three in high school with a 1st and a 2nd is not for the faint of heart...)

DH likes to say they are the best of friends and the worst of enemies.  It's absolutely true.  But I would love a couple cute book suggestions that aren't "Berenstein Bear like" in the OVERT lesson, but maybe a little more subtle and allows us to talk?  Got anything?

[Bambam]

We had a book "A Children's Book about Tattling" by Joy Berry (we had several in this series, found at a garage sale for super cheap, some were good, some were not). This is not an especially interesting book (the series was sorta preachy), but it did open up the discussion about tattling. 

I told my two (girls, about 2.75 years apart) that they should only tell about the other (or anyone else for that matter) if they were in danger of doing serious damage to themselves or their surroundings/others or there was already blood involved. So, when they came to report something, I'd stop them and ask, "Is anyone or anything in danger?", "Is there any blood?" Yes, I did this for a LONG time. I did it with neighbor kids too, who always just looked at me like I was crazy. 

I hope you get better suggestions! 

[Zoo Keeper]

16 minutes ago, Bambam said:

...
I told my two (girls, about 2.75 years apart) that they should only tell about the other (or anyone else for that matter) if they were in danger of doing serious damage to themselves or their surroundings/others or there was already blood involved. So, when they came to report something, I'd stop them and ask, "Is anyone or anything in danger?", "Is there any blood?" Yes, I did this for a LONG time.

...

This ^  is what I had to do with a few of mine.-- almost the same script! 🙂   It helped (eventually). 

I also had to remind one of mine that God sees and God knows, even if Mom misses something. That helped my "justice seeking rule follower" realize that his sibling wasn't just doing whatever and NOBODY saw it.  

And I did have to eventually have a talk with the tattler about his motivation behind the constant stream of tattling-- was he sincerely trying to *help* his brother, or was he just pointing out the "badness" of his brother so that he looked good?   Obviously, some younger kids (or some families) aren't up to that kind of motive analysis, but it did help with this kid. 

[ktgrok]

15 minutes ago, Zoo Keeper said:

This ^  is what I had to do with a few of mine.-- almost the same script! 🙂   It helped (eventually). 

I also had to remind one of mine that God sees and God knows, even if Mom misses something. That helped my "justice seeking rule follower" realize that his sibling wasn't just doing whatever and NOBODY saw it.  

And I did have to eventually have a talk with the tattler about his motivation behind the constant stream of tattling-- was he sincerely trying to *help* his brother, or was he just pointing out the "badness" of his brother so that he looked good?   Obviously, some younger kids (or some families) aren't up to that kind of motive analysis, but it did help with this kid. 

The phrase we used are "are you telling to help, or telling to hurt?"

We also say a lot that yes, that's TRUE, but is it KIND? 

 

[Chris in VA]

My thought is that sometimes children like your dd get a lot of their self esteem from the approval of others, and they are smart enough to figure out what people/adults approve of. It can bite them in the butt later when they start to want to diverge from what is the approved of behavior (or "look," belief, etc.). It can actually be a not-so-good thing, now, because it can be a sign of insecurity.   Also, this super power of being so observant (in both the "I see" way and the "I follow" meaning) can be fun to apply to those around them and can come out as critcism and tattling. 

If you start noticing and mentioning more what the boy does it will throw her off (maybe); she may try twice as hard to prove she is worth your approval. 

I think I would try examining your family culture for what things gain the most approval and make sure you are fostering the sense that people are loved (not tolerated) for who they are, not what they do. 

This is in no way a critique. I think you are amazing. I say all this because of my own child's battle with self esteem, and my own. We were both tuned in to subtilties. 

[Farrar]

I assume he gets in trouble and sometimes there are consequences for his behavior - like, maybe next time you see the Legos headed to the table, they're taken away for a little while, and maybe you made him go to the sink and wash them off today. Does she get an actual consequence or does she just get reminded? I like all the language above, but in the end, if it doesn't make a difference, I'd start slowly doling out some consequences - especially because she wants to be a rule follower. I'm not one for harsh rules. But also, you've spoken to her and she's not getting it. Her constant tattling is eroding the peace in the house, so maybe when she does it when it's not for a dangerous situation or to hurt and not help, then she needs to do something else to help restore the peace. Or, it's making your job as mom harder, so she has to do something to make your job easier.

[Emba]

I don’t have a book (agh, why is autocorrect suggesting bra?) for you, unfortunately.

i do have a DD with similar disposition., and a phrase that has to be trotted out often: “You’re not his mommy. Let me handle the mommy things.” Also: “I’m the mommy, I will let him know if _____ is a problem.” And: “You worry about YourName.”

See also: “Is there blood? Is there a fire?”

[Emba]

Sometimes by using the phrases, the immediate problem extinguished because she’s not getting the attention she wants or feeling of power (getting someone else in trouble or to do what she says). Other times I have to just send her to another room or have her finish a task alone, since she’s so particular about how it must be done.

[BlsdMama]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

The phrase we used are "are you telling to help, or telling to hurt?"

We also say a lot that yes, that's TRUE, but is it KIND? 

 

I like this phrase a LOT. We generally go with the bleeding thing because it's worked in the past, kwim? But this is over the top.  We had another little girl like this once (and she's now 14) so I am feeling confident she won't grow into a spiteful human, but oh my wow, some mornings!

1 hour ago, Chris in VA said:

My thought is that sometimes children like your dd get a lot of their self esteem from the approval of others, and they are smart enough to figure out what people/adults approve of. It can bite them in the butt later when they start to want to diverge from what is the approved of behavior (or "look," belief, etc.). It can actually be a not-so-good thing, now, because it can be a sign of insecurity.   Also, this super power of being so observant (in both the "I see" way and the "I follow" meaning) can be fun to apply to those around them and can come out as critcism and tattling. 

If you start noticing and mentioning more what the boy does it will throw her off (maybe); she may try twice as hard to prove she is worth your approval. 

I think I would try examining your family culture for what things gain the most approval and make sure you are fostering the sense that people are loved (not tolerated) for who they are, not what they do. 

This is in no way a critique. I think you are amazing. I say all this because of my own child's battle with self esteem, and my own. We were both tuned in to subtilties. 

I totally get what you're saying.  She has fallen into prizing her "identity" as the good kid, kwim? I think we are good, as a family, at recognizing strengths, and I have, as a mom, gotten weaker at pointing out and correcting weaknesses.  As a reflective practice, I've become very, "We do this..." rather than, "Is this thing I do working?" - I think it's the greatest weakness of experienced moms so I deeply appreciate the encouragement to reexamine what we do (our culture) and ask if something needs to be tweaked.  I think the obvious answer is yes, because what we are doing now obviously isn't working, so I think I needed the encouragement to reevaluate.  I wholeheartedly agree with you that it is insecurity.  She is not an overall insecure child, but she is an approval seeker and I honestly never want to encourage that.  Our 14yo was the same and it has taken a lot of scaffolding (not sure that's exactly the word I want to use) for her to gain her identity from sources outside of just her mama or doing for others.   She has a servant's heart by nature, but we are seeking servant leadership (who empower and encourage others to be strong while being strong) rather than JUST serving.  

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I assume he gets in trouble and sometimes there are consequences for his behavior - like, maybe next time you see the Legos headed to the table, they're taken away for a little while, and maybe you made him go to the sink and wash them off today. Does she get an actual consequence or does she just get reminded? I like all the language above, but in the end, if it doesn't make a difference, I'd start slowly doling out some consequences - especially because she wants to be a rule follower. I'm not one for harsh rules. But also, you've spoken to her and she's not getting it. Her constant tattling is eroding the peace in the house, so maybe when she does it when it's not for a dangerous situation or to hurt and not help, then she needs to do something else to help restore the peace. Or, it's making your job as mom harder, so she has to do something to make your job easier.

We worked through scripting today.  In the past, we have chosen to pass out consequences to BOTH because BOTH did wrong.  This seems to not work so great.  It's interesting though - as I reflect it's absolutely for, "Look at me, *I* chose this and *he* chose wrong," because they are playing in the yard and not a peep of discord or correction.  It's really when they are under my armpit that this happens........  That's telling, hm?

27 minutes ago, emba56 said:

I don’t have a book (agh, why is autocorrect suggesting bra?) for you, unfortunately.

 

Probably because when I get up and get dressed, they are kept busy rather than having free time in which to drive one another crazy!  :P 

[Pen]

 

“You are not the mommy. I am. Eating with Legos is bad manners. Tattling about trivial things, being bossy, and reaching into someone else’s bowl without permission such as to scrape the sides are all also very bad manners, probably worse.”

 

[ktgrok]

Oh, my other phrase when I'm being gracious is "eyes on your own plate", as in worry about yourself, not others. But sometimes that comes out more southern mama, more like  "Not your bizness!"

 

[Guest]

I told the tattler, “You worry about you,” and also, “I’ll be the mother, you be *Name*” But I didn’t really have a serious issue with this in my family. (Maybe cause I had a fourth the number of kids, lol!) 

[Pen]

Book:   Maybe a “What Should Danny Do?” book.  And even if exact situation isn’t covered, turn the problem into a What should Danny Do? question yourselves.

What Should Danny Do? (The Power to Choose Series) https://www.amazon.com/dp/069284838X/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_MkpyFbEPQ2DBE

 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

A child who tattles and is prone to bickering isn't well behaved.  A child who manages bicker #234 in a morning doesn't have everything come easy to her.  It's bad manners to overstep your place as a 7 year old and parent your sibling, particularly when Mom is present. My impression of your post is that you've been sending her (and yourself) mixed messages, you've been letting her bad behavior slide, and now you're paying for it. It seems to me subtle isn't really called for at this point. Something explicit and matter of fact seems more in order if this has been ongoing.

Culturally, Americans are prone to liking girls who are adorable, perky, and good at academics. Parents should remember the immortal words of Judge Judy, "I don't find you charming at all." There are plenty of long term struggles people with the advantages of adorable, perky, and good academics can have when their parents and teachers don't hold them to the same standards of behavior and attitude as the dull, annoying, homely kids.

My youngest has a cousin about her age.  When she was little she would boss him and other kids around.  I tried the "You worry about yourself, not him." then redirect stuff for more than a year and there was absolutely no improvement at all;she was getting worse.

Then I had to move up to matter-of-factly explicit.  "It's rude and arrogant of you to tell others what to do.  You're a kid and have no authority over anyone else.  It's obnoxious and people won't like you or want to be around you if you keep doing it." All of that is factual truth and it was done out of love after I tried the nicer approach for almost a couple of years while kids were reacting more negatively to her.

And there had to be consequences. I had go in and remove her from the situation and either have her sit next to me or banish her to a room to be by herself for a while. That's mimicking the future natural consequences of what will happen to her if she keeps it up. It worked much better.  She didn't have anywhere near the self-awareness to see what was really going on with her or the intuition to extrapolate out what the consequences of her playmates' anger would be.  She needed a reality check in no uncertain terms. 

[katilac]

Honestly, I wouldn't bother with subtle. It's a common behavior problem and I'd just address it each and every time. She does not correct him, period. Have the discussion about only telling when an adult isn't there to see, and someone is likely to get hurt or something is likely to get broken (I have a waiver for property as well as people, lol). I also like "Are you telling to help or telling to hurt?" and that can be part of the initial discussion plus a reminder. 

How do you react when she does stuff like peek in his bowl, scrape the sides, and then tell him he didn't eat it all? Because it really shouldn't have gone quite so far. Maybe you let peeking in the bowl go, if it isn't obvious, but the moment she touched his bowl is the moment she should have been corrected. She should not have had the chance to scrape the bowl or tell him anything. If I had walked away and returned to find that she had scraped his bowl and corrected him, a consequence might be that she has to wash his bowl or put it in the dishwasher for him. Remind her that good manners are for everyone, not just the adults and non-family members in her life. 

When you see him doing something and then see her gearing up to tell, stop her right from the get-go. When she goes "Mom!" you put your hand up to stop her. "Beloved dd, are you about to tell me something about you or something about someone else? If it's not about you, please stop now." 

Hand in hand with that, I would work hard to not correct ds in front of her. If you walk in and see him breaking a rule, like no shoes on the couch, say, "ds, can you come see me for a minute?" and correct him privately. I don't think that's something one always needs to do for minor stuff, but, in this case, I'd want to break the dynamic of dd being involved in any way, even as an observer. 

When they reach Bicker #3 for the morning, you separate them for an hour. Then do it again when they reach Bicker #3 for the afternoon, and so on. 

[skctgbrlis]

Longtime lurker with a book suggestion:  Mrs. Piggle-Wiggle’s Magic (specifically The Tattletale Cure). 🙂

[Pen]

 

Another way to think about it could be to imagine little brother as someone else, say husband’s boss, or your minister.  If what daughter is doing with little brother (looking in his bowl, scraping the sides, criticizing his table manners, commenting on how thorough  he was in eating up his food) would be rude, bad manners, even embarrassing, if done with boss or minister, then it is bad manners.  It is bad behavior. Full stop.  

I might ask what consequences  she thinks little brother should get for his bad manners and then give that to her for each violation of he own if, as mom, it seems an appropriate consequence.