Improving Sleep quality

[Soror]

Has anyone had good luck improving sleep quality specifically? I've increased the length of my sleep with work and am averaging about 7.5 hrs most nights. But my sleep quality really varies. Some nights I hardly get any REM sleep, last night was 18 minutes, so even if I sleep plenty I don't always wake up feeling very restful (even though I feel much better than when I was only getting 6 hrs).

I go to bed early and have a consistent bedtime.

I sleep in a dark room.

I use white noise.

I keep the air on at night so it is cool for sleeping.

I don't drink caffeine or alcohol. I do eat dark chocolate but generally at lunch.

I don't have a tv in my room and don't bring my phone to bed. 

I take progesterone in the secon half of my cycle as my sleep really tanks if I don't. 

I have noticed that if I have too many carbs or too few my sleep is crap but haven't figured out how to consitently get great sleep.

 

[PeterPan]

If you've done your genetics, you could see if there's anything quirky with your b vitamins. 

Is your vitamin D good? 

I sleep like a rock, but I haven't hit menopause yet. I like to think it's connected to eating brown rice and getting good sunshine and vitamin D supplementation. Also, is 7.5 high for you? I know people vary. I only sleep 6.5 and if I sleep more something is wrong. You might be trying to sleep too much.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, soror said:

I do eat dark chocolate

How much? Caffeine hangs in my system a long time, almost 24 hours. So I can have a dab, but too much more and yeah it can keep me awake. But I'm with you on liking it. From mexico, yum...

Waking up feeling rested, for me, is more about thyroid levels and glutathione. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by PeterPan

[klmama]

Have you tried using melatonin?  If you fall asleep with it, but wake too easily, you might try the sustained release type.

[Soror]

14 hours ago, PeterPan said:

If you've done your genetics, you could see if there's anything quirky with your b vitamins. 

Is your vitamin D good? 

I sleep like a rock, but I haven't hit menopause yet. I like to think it's connected to eating brown rice and getting good sunshine and vitamin D supplementation. Also, is 7.5 high for you? I know people vary. I only sleep 6.5 and if I sleep more something is wrong. You might be trying to sleep too much.

I supplement with D and have had a lot of outside time lately in the sun. 7.5 hrs is good for me. I feel horrible on 6.5.

14 hours ago, PeterPan said:

How much? Caffeine hangs in my system a long time, almost 24 hours. So I can have a dab, but too much more and yeah it can keep me awake. But I'm with you on liking it. From mexico, yum...

Waking up feeling rested, for me, is more about thyroid levels and glutathione. 

Chocolate is .5 - 2 servings depending on hormone levels 🙂 I've not noticed a correlation with it and my sleep. Thyroid levels and meds have been stabilized for 2 yrs now. I take glutathione.

13 hours ago, klmama said:

Have you tried using melatonin?  If you fall asleep with it, but wake too easily, you might try the sustained release type.

I have tried it but would rather not be dependent on it if I can help it.

16 hours ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

I try to get to bed a bit late, around 11 normally, then up by 8. It helps if I force myself to get up at the same time, instead of going to sleep at a  set time.

I don’t have a tv there, no phone or books. I love a cool room, but I usually keep the window cracked open all year, too. I guess crickets and frogs are my white-noise.

About 4 hours before bed I take a long walk or exercise for one hour then a warm bath. For some reason a bath/shower right before bed doesn’t work. 

Dh swears that having a big tablespoon of peanut butter right before bed helps, but I think he and the dog just like to stand in the kitchen and snack.

No window open as it bothers allergies and it is too humid. I've not tried a bath as it is family time before bed.

Edited May 28, 2020 by soror

[fairfarmhand]

Are you moving enough to get your heart rate up for 20 minutes or so a day? That helps me sleep better.

[Laura Corin]

This is not something I do, but have you tried extremely gentle bedtime yoga?  Some people find that useful as a way of sliding into better sleep.

[Soror]

20 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Are you moving enough to get your heart rate up for 20 minutes or so a day? That helps me sleep better.

I have been hitting well over that most days but I can have an active day and sleep terribly and a quiet day and sleep well.

10 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

This is not something I do, but have you tried extremely gentle bedtime yoga?  Some people find that useful as a way of sliding into better sleep.

I have not in ages. I thought last night I should try some meditation before sleeping to help lower my heart rate.

[Jentrovert]

A bit random, and won't apply to everyone, but I have felt much more rested since I started using a mouth guard at night. I grind my teeth so hard that my husband can feel the vibrations from it in bed, and it was affecting my teeth. An otc guard didn't help, but a custom one from the dentist did. My sleep, jaw and neck pain, and headaches have improved. 

[Scarlett]

18 hours ago, soror said:

Has anyone had good luck improving sleep quality specifically? I've increased the length of my sleep with work and am averaging about 7.5 hrs most nights. But my sleep quality really varies. Some nights I hardly get any REM sleep, last night was 18 minutes, so even if I sleep plenty I don't always wake up feeling very restful (even though I feel much better than when I was only getting 6 hrs).

I go to bed early and have a consistent bedtime.

I sleep in a dark room.

I use white noise.

I keep the air on at night so it is cool for sleeping.

I don't drink caffeine or alcohol. I do eat dark chocolate but generally at lunch.

I don't have a tv in my room and don't bring my phone to bed. 

I take progesterone in the secon half of my cycle as my sleep really tanks if I don't. 

I have noticed that if I have too many carbs or too few my sleep is crap but haven't figured out how to consitently get great sleep.

 

I am highly impressed by all the things you are doing right.  Wow.  It makes me want to try them all especially since I did not sleep last night.  

When I don't get good sleep all I want to do the next day is eat carbs.  

My lack of sleep is generally tied to my mind just not shutting down.  I was crying about 4 a.m. with the things I was thinking about.  So I am not sure any routine in the world would fix that.

Do you find your mind not shutting off?  

[Soror]

3 hours ago, Jentrovert said:

A bit random, and won't apply to everyone, but I have felt much more rested since I started using a mouth guard at night. I grind my teeth so hard that my husband can feel the vibrations from it in bed, and it was affecting my teeth. An otc guard didn't help, but a custom one from the dentist did. My sleep, jaw and neck pain, and headaches have improved. 

Thanks for the thought, I do not grind my teeth but that is a good reminder for anyone who does!

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

I am highly impressed by all the things you are doing right.  Wow.  It makes me want to try them all especially since I did not sleep last night.  

When I don't get good sleep all I want to do the next day is eat carbs.  

My lack of sleep is generally tied to my mind just not shutting down.  I was crying about 4 a.m. with the things I was thinking about.  So I am not sure any routine in the world would fix that.

Do you find your mind not shutting off?  

Yes, after poor sleep it is hard to eat well!

I'm sorry you are having a rough time, being stressed really screws with sleep. I am not having trouble with my brain not turning off right now. I go to sleep well. I am not always sleeping the best when I do sleep and sometimes waking earlier than I need. On the nights I awake early I just think about random things, like organizing the house or some such things, nothing on my mind really.

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, soror said:

I have tried it but would rather not be dependent on it if I can help it.

5HTP is the precursor in conversion of tryptophan to serotonin and melatonin. The gene is TPH2 and if you have that defect, you won't convert as well. I think it's more like if you have the genetic defect take it, rather than using it for all people, if that makes sense. 

But yeah, if you've tried everything else, it really might be hormones. I have a friend with that issue. Some people take progesterone the whole month, so it would be something to look into. Are you in menopause?

Edited May 28, 2020 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

My lack of sleep is generally tied to my mind just not shutting down.  I was crying about 4 a.m. with the things I was thinking about.  So I am not sure any routine in the world would fix that.

You could talk with your doctor about a mild anxiety med. They'll use hydroxyzine at night for that. It's an old school antihistamine, very mild, and it's sedating. So it calms the anxiety/racing mind and makes you sleepy as a bonus. I've used it with my ds at times and know an adult using it for that very purpose (helping them sleep when their mind is going).

[Soror]

9 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

5HTP is the precursor in conversion of tryptophan to serotonin and melatonin. The gene is TPH2 and if you have that defect, you won't convert as well. I think it's more like if you have the genetic defect take it, rather than using it for all people, if that makes sense. 

But yeah, if you've tried everything else, it really might be hormones. I have a friend with that issue. Some people take progesterone the whole month, so it would be something to look into. 

I know it is at least partly hormones because my sleep is better the first half of the cycle. This spring the hormones went wonky again and it worsened- ie the good part of my cycle sleep wasn't as good and the bad part it was worse. I might should consider it the whole cycle, I have an appointment in June and will talk to the dr.

Another ball of wax in there is oxygen variation. I was having some spikes up to high variation but noticed it is tied to allergies. I've found Zyrtec at night keeps my variation in the good zone, Zyrtec and Claritin together do really well but I tend to feel groggy the next day. I've been saying for years I need to visit an allergist, but now of course visiting any dr is hard and it is also lots of money.

Fitbit also shows that my HR is often not dropping while sleeping like it should, I don't know why that is happening. I have noticed if I eat something carby late it is more pronounced but I haven't figured out how to keep it low. If I eat too low carb or not enough I'm more restless at night.

Edited May 28, 2020 by soror

[PeterPan]

9 minutes ago, soror said:

Another ball of wax in there is oxygen variation.

NOW you're onto something. Definitely my oxygen level is connected to how I feel when I wake up. I'm sorry your allergies are giving you a mess. Do you think you're pushing into asthma? Or is your stress high? For me, and this is just me, when my stress goes up my lung control (and hence oxygen) go down. So I'm susceptible to the allergies and then the stress whacks my system and cortisol levels and whatever was keeping it in place. 

So for me, part of that is controlling

-stress--> anxiety med as needed, which it sounds like you don't need

-inflammation--> I take tumeric, vitamin shoppe brand, in pretty stiff doses. I take 3 of their super mega kill what ails you strength normally and the last few months I've gone up to 4 a day. I space them out. Keeps inflammation down, lungs under control, oxygen up. I check my oxygen every morning and I need it to be at least 97 to feel well. If it's 95-96 and I'm waking up feeling like crap, that's the reason.

-allergen exposure--> I'm spending this entire week cleaning because I came back from our Missouri trip and my lungs instantly got a mess, oops. Too much dog, too much dust. So I'm cleaning like a mad woman. And if it's happening at night, clean your room. Remove everything, look for mold, roomba daily, whatever. It seems like I'm most susceptible at night to those small amounts that you're just breathing breathing. Mold in the master bath, the bath mat the dog sleeps on, dust on the hardwood, whatever.

Do you take enough C? That helps control it a bit too. Total aside, but I was trying to take glutathione at night when I take my thyroid meds and after a few days I realized my system was tanking. Glutathione is normally magic for me and gives me energy, but I think taking it took close to my thyroid meds was undermining them. So now I make sure I take them far apart.

Glutathione will delete out the antihistamine, so you could use it to undo the groggy in the morning. Won't work if you're taking your thyroid meds then. And if you're taking the glutathione close to the antihistamine, that could lead to needing more.

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by PeterPan

[Scarlett]

54 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

You could talk with your doctor about a mild anxiety med. They'll use hydroxyzine at night for that. It's an old school antihistamine, very mild, and it's sedating. So it calms the anxiety/racing mind and makes you sleepy as a bonus. I've used it with my ds at times and know an adult using it for that very purpose (helping them sleep when their mind is going).

I have enough allergies that I usually end up taking Nyquil several times a week. That will usually get me a good night's sleep.  If not, I have resorted to Benedryl just to sleep.  Not something I would want to do every night though. 

[PeterPan]

33 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

If not, I have resorted to Benedryl just to sleep.

Yes, the hydroxyzine would be like taking benadryl. But you might like it better, because it clears from the system faster and leaves you less groggy. Now it's a methyl donor, which isn't cool if you tend to get irritable with methyl donors. But other than that, if you like benadryl but want less groggy, then hydroxyzine. It's prescription, but it's stupid cheap, old school, an easy ask.

[Pen]

Low Vitamin D levels, low melatonin, etc can lead to poor sleep.  

(Low D, low NAC related amino acids can lead to anxious thinking too) 

 Especially as your darkness, noise, etc protocols seem really good. 

[Soror]

19 hours ago, PeterPan said:

NOW you're onto something. Definitely my oxygen level is connected to how I feel when I wake up. I'm sorry your allergies are giving you a mess. Do you think you're pushing into asthma? Or is your stress high? For me, and this is just me, when my stress goes up my lung control (and hence oxygen) go down. So I'm susceptible to the allergies and then the stress whacks my system and cortisol levels and whatever was keeping it in place. 

So for me, part of that is controlling

-stress--> anxiety med as needed, which it sounds like you don't need

-inflammation--> I take tumeric, vitamin shoppe brand, in pretty stiff doses. I take 3 of their super mega kill what ails you strength normally and the last few months I've gone up to 4 a day. I space them out. Keeps inflammation down, lungs under control, oxygen up. I check my oxygen every morning and I need it to be at least 97 to feel well. If it's 95-96 and I'm waking up feeling like crap, that's the reason.

-allergen exposure--> I'm spending this entire week cleaning because I came back from our Missouri trip and my lungs instantly got a mess, oops. Too much dog, too much dust. So I'm cleaning like a mad woman. And if it's happening at night, clean your room. Remove everything, look for mold, roomba daily, whatever. It seems like I'm most susceptible at night to those small amounts that you're just breathing breathing. Mold in the master bath, the bath mat the dog sleeps on, dust on the hardwood, whatever.

Do you take enough C? That helps control it a bit too. Total aside, but I was trying to take glutathione at night when I take my thyroid meds and after a few days I realized my system was tanking. Glutathione is normally magic for me and gives me energy, but I think taking it took close to my thyroid meds was undermining them. So now I make sure I take them far apart.

Glutathione will delete out the antihistamine, so you could use it to undo the groggy in the morning. Won't work if you're taking your thyroid meds then. And if you're taking the glutathione close to the antihistamine, that could lead to needing more.

 

The cat has been napping on my side of the bed. Could be that it is bothering me. I've never had an inside cat and never been tested so I'm flying blind. I washed my sheets yesterday and am going to start keeping the door closed.

I take my glutathione in the am 2 hrs after thyroid meds, it tends to give me a bit of energy so I don't take it at night. I don't take anything around thyroid meds. I don't have an O2 sensor, probably would be helpful with this allergy crap but of course it is a bad time to buy one. I live in MO our allergies are horrible now. My nose is so stuffy and my eyes itchy and I've been working outside.

14 hours ago, Pen said:

Low Vitamin D levels, low melatonin, etc can lead to poor sleep.  

(Low D, low NAC related amino acids can lead to anxious thinking too) 

 Especially as your darkness, noise, etc protocols seem really good. 

I don't have low D, haven't checked NAC. Melatonin does help but I'd rather not take it if I can get buy with other things, it is hard to find a dose that helps without groggyness.

I slept better the last 2 nights after starting back on progesterone, that makes me more curious about adding it in earlier in the cycle or maybe a smaller dose all the time. I need to log it.

[Pen]

34 minutes ago, soror said:

The cat has been napping on my side of the bed. Could be that it is bothering me. I've never had an inside cat and never been tested so I'm flying blind. I washed my sheets yesterday and am going to start keeping the door closed.

I take my glutathione in the am 2 hrs after thyroid meds, it tends to give me a bit of energy so I don't take it at night. I don't take anything around thyroid meds. I don't have an O2 sensor, probably would be helpful with this allergy crap but of course it is a bad time to buy one. I live in MO our allergies are horrible now. My nose is so stuffy and my eyes itchy and I've been working outside.

I don't have low D, haven't checked NAC. Melatonin does help but I'd rather not take it if I can get buy with other things, it is hard to find a dose that helps without groggyness.

I slept better the last 2 nights after starting back on progesterone, that makes me more curious about adding it in earlier in the cycle or maybe a smaller dose all the time. I need to log it.

 

NAC is supposed to be more effective for most people at restoring glutathione than glutathione itself.  Glycine is another amino acid that can relate to sleep. Tryptophan, And another I am suddenly blanking on that is a relative (metabolite iirc) of tryptophan, ...  5-HTP.   Maybe taurine. 

 

Yoga, breathing exercises...

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Pen

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, soror said:

The cat has been napping on my side of the bed. Could be that it is bothering me. I've never had an inside cat and never been tested so I'm flying blind.

Oh my. Well I'll just tell you that I'm turning 44 and my thing with cats is getting worse. I grew up with them, never considered myself allergic to them. I think it's just generally the aging, falling apart thing. My mother allows a cat because her dh requires one, but in fact she's allergic. Yes, out of the bedroom completely and clean the floor and everything.

1 hour ago, soror said:

I take my glutathione in the am 2 hrs after thyroid meds

Were you doing this when you did your labs to get everything balanced? If your meds were balanced with labs using this regimen, fine. If the glutathione was added afterward, I would try spacing them much farther, like 6-12 hours. 

That's kinda telling if the glutathione is giving you energy, hmm. With stuff like calcium and food they say 4 hours away. I think I read that somewhere, so that's the number I follow. 

1 hour ago, soror said:

I live in MO our allergies are horrible now.

Oh that's wild! We were just there for a week, loved it btw, and I had no issues with allergies. Came home and they started up because of the dog, go figure. Maybe you're in a different part of the state? We were in the Mark Twain National Forest, and we drive n/s/e/w doing all kinds of stuff. We did Pilot Knob and the battle there, Elephant Rocks, Johnson's Shut Ins, Echo Bluff State Park, the Meramec Caverns, and a lead mine in Bonne Terre. Good bbq too! We'd definitely like to come back and do more MO, but I have a feeling like many places when you're there a lot it's not the same, lol.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, soror said:

I slept better the last 2 nights after starting back on progesterone, that makes me more curious about adding it in earlier in the cycle or maybe a smaller dose all the time. I need to log it.

We've had threads in the past on progesterone and sleep. If you've done everything else, that's probably what is causing the waking. I still think I would try to get a pulse oximeter or maybe even a peak flow meter if you think you're having restricted breathing. The pulse oximeters are available again and running around $30, which is higher but not so high I wouldn't buy one. It's just where the market is going to be for a while. Or try to get the cat thing under control and see if that helps.

I think I would separate the not waking up well and the waking up mid cycle and consider the one multifactored (allergies, etc.) and the other hormones and see where that gets you.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, soror said:

Melatonin does help but I'd rather not take it if I can get buy with other things, it is hard to find a dose

Yeah, melatonin is always sold way too high. Complete physiologic replacement is so, so low. And as Pen is saying, if the issue is needing melatonin up, I'd be looking at that 5HTP as the precursor. I use a time release from Natrol and it's the bomb, so so good. I don't know that you need it, just saying. You could turn out to have a TPH2 defect if you did testing, sure. You could run genetics or look in the results of any of your people if you have genetics on them.