How's it going?

[Lecka]

That is why I think it is worth bringing up and seeing what people say.  I have seen things where there is a misconception or where the person is happy to adjust their expectations when it is brought up.  Especially if there are alternate cues brought up as usually being more successful.  Or “well if he is not responding then try this.”  
 

 

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, Lecka said:

That is why I think it is worth bringing up and seeing what people say.  I have seen things where there is a misconception or where the person is happy to adjust their expectations when it is brought up.  Especially if there are alternate cues brought up as usually being more successful.  Or “well if he is not responding then try this.”  
 

 

Yup, that's what we're working through now. And they're doing some backpedaling.

[Lecka]

I think though — don’t go too far to where they are afraid you will be mad if they do prompt for him to pay attention or focus.  (Edit — or discuss what that would look like that works for you — at some point do you want them to prompt him to ask for a break, etc)
 

That is not equivalent to forcing someone to make eye contact.  

Edited April 15, 2020 by Lecka

[Lecka]

I do think you risk people having a lower standard or expectation for him than he is capable of, if they think they are very limited in how they can ask for his attention.  

[PeterPan]

Haha, finished up a session with another (new to him) worker, and ds did just fine, engaged, had conversations. So it's the not just him. And like I suspected, this person wants to go kind of vague.

Edited April 15, 2020 by PeterPan

[Storygirl]

The only thing I might add is to be aware of how you may be projecting your opinions of people, in case your son picks up on them. If he thinks you don't respect someone, then why should he respect them? If he has a low opinion of a worker, it won't bode well for making progress with them.

You really might be being careful about this and just venting here, but it's something I thought I would mention. Because you mentioned explaining "A game" and "B game" to him, I wondered if you might be oversharing with him.

Oh, also, I think that it's really hard to have sessions like this with video conferencing, if the person won't look at the screen. I'm wondering if that is what she meant by "eye contact" versus actually requiring him to look directly into her eyes. Could it be possible that she just meant turning his face toward the screen?

I know DS16 does not like video sessions and feeling like people are looking directly at him. So he wants to wear hats or the hood of his sweatshirt, so that he can tip his face down and hide his eyes. Or he will slide to the side of the screen, so that his face is halfway off of the screen. Or he will constantly look down and not look into the screen at all. He's not doing this constantly, but it's something we've been working on. It's possible that someone might refer to getting DS's attention as needing "eye contact" but not really meaning that literally.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Storygirl

[Storygirl]

As for how things are going here...

My kids are enrolled in school, so we've been adapting to remote learning. The school in general has been doing a good job. We've had kind of minimal contact with the intervention specialists. They have each reached out via email to me to make sure we can ask questions and to offer any help. But the daily duty of helping my kids with IEPs falls to me and DH (who is working from home and handles math questions, since he is more mathy than I am). We've been doing okay with that, but as I help my kids, I do think of other kids with SN who can't get their intervention assistance from parents at home and are missing out on instruction, which is really sad.

We've been staying home and doing appointments with video conferencing, which has had some glitches but generally has gone well. I personally appreciate doing less driving and being able to stay at home. My schedule is usually controlled by our outside appointments (and sports practices, etc.), and I am enjoying actually being able to be calm at home, instead of running around everywhere.

My kids with anxiety seem to be doing well.

We've had some moments of getting on each others' nerves, but we have a big enough house that we can spread out and get alone time when needed. In general, our kind of normal family conflicts have been less (not nothing but less), because we have had fewer outside stressors to deal with. We've been watching a lot of movies together, which is something we all enjoy. DH and I have been introducing the kids to some older movies that we think they should see.

My son who needs the most help with academics also is the one who most hates getting help for academics, and usually homework is a battle. For this reason, I was dreading the online schooling, but it is going fairly well. We do have arguing, etc., but he is completing his work more easily than I expected. We would not go back to homeschooling, because there are positive things about my kids being in school, but this break has had some benefits that we are enjoying, and I still feel that my kids are continuing their learning.

I'm not sleeping well, and my mother, who has Alzeheimer's and lives in a nursing home, has been exposed to the virus, and we are waiting testing results. My brother had to have two stents put in, due to heart trouble, last week. My SIL  (DH's sister) has been diagnosed with what she calls "a little spot of breast cancer" and is waiting to find out her treatment plan. My MIL with some dementia and FIL are doing well enough, but it's still stressful for them to be isolated. My dad, age 86, is still going to work every day (small family business, but STILL!!!). So personally, I am having stress. But I cannot do anything about any of that, other than pray, and I have been managing to keep on an even keel with my own anxiety, so far. It helps that I feel safe from the virus here in my home. I think I will have a lot more anxiety once the people in my household reenter the world.

But my kids are doing well. DH is doing well working from home, and we enjoy having him around (I would like it if he could work from home permanently). We are only going out of the house for groceries once a week. DH does the shopping, because he has fewer known risk factors than I do.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Storygirl

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

The only thing I might add is to be aware of how you may be projecting your opinions of people, in case your son picks up on them.

Absolutely! 

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

Because you mentioned explaining "A game" and "B game" to him, I wondered if you might be oversharing with him.

Yeah, there's a line. The flip side is, I have to be intellectually honest with him. If he's seeing stuff and needs to talk it out, we have to be honest. 

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

I know DS16 does not like video sessions and feeling like people are looking directly at him.

Yeah, and it's also a little funny because the image can end up BIG and CLOSE. Some of the video chats I've been very comfortable with and some I was like wow I think I need to back up a foot, lol.  But yes, that's what my ds was doing I think, turtling. That's when I call it when he tries to cover and hide, turtling. Very scientific, haha. So who knows what that IS was thinking. You could tell from day one she was controlling. She made me cringe. It's just a way some people have about them, really demanding. And it was a pretty stark contrast with the way the other SLP today was able to build rapport super fast, like whiz bang, just by being INTERESTING. The IS is used to doing it by control, and the SLP obviously is more skilled at building a relationship. Literally first session, boom, talking the whole time, them interacting, no turtling. And he stayed *longer* with her than he had to! I wrote her back and said we'll take two hours with her, lol. 

We're talking about our caps and whether we can keep taking hours up. We have such a limited window here, but apparently the state has lifted our billing caps. So we can literally go crazy and do some really unique stuff here, doing 1-2 hours of speech therapy a day across a variety of people to see if we can get some breakthroughs. And part of what I'm thinking is we get him paired with some people so when we lose our ability to do it via tele his stress is lower to go work with them. And partly we're improving his stamina to work over and over again. So a session, break 30, another session, that's really pushing him forward.

He's in a REALLY GOOD mood today, so I think this is actually turning out really well! He's done music therapy and another hour with that SLP, and he's just so interactive and compliant and easy going and low stress. For starting with a new person, that's FABULOUS. And it lowers my stress if he's in a good mood, lol. I think also the anxiety med is working really well and we're getting it in a groove. I tweaked some stuff on it, pairing it with niacin to counteract the dopamine bump, etc. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

but we have a big enough house that we can spread out and get alone time when needed.

This is so good!!!

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

We are only going out of the house for groceries once a week.

What a joy after all the driving you had been doing!

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

I'm not sleeping well

Call your doctor? 

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

but he is completing his work more easily than I expected.

That's awesome! It's such a sign that the routine and structure is good for him. That's why I'm ramping up tele hours for ds, because it gives him a lot of structure right now.

[Crimson Wife]

4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I did some screaming today over why in the world EVERY PERSON WORKING WITH HIM wants to work on social, when that's NOT the most pressing problem. Like hello, he's struggling to write a sentence when given 5 words, and you're worried about his conversations??? How about actually WORKING with him? I swear they're all lazy overpaid and inflated in their brains. They don't want to BRING it and it's really, really frustrating me.

And then the SLPs who are like oh I want to work on conversation. And I'm like hello syntax, lexicon, expressive language. Nope that's not my area. So they refer us to another one who supposedly does expressive language and she's like oh I want to do "social language."

If I were a certified SLP working with your DS, I would explain that oral narratives are the foundation upon which writing is built. If your DS can't hold a conversation well enough to tell a basic narrative, then all the writing instruction in the world isn't going to be successful. He has to walk before he can run. I've only skimmed Nurturing Narratives but it looks really good. I recommend reading it if you can get a hold of a copy.

That said, pragmatic language goals should be interwoven with the other expressive language goals like syntax, semantics, etc. My SN child just had teletherapy today and her SLP was working with her on "Theory of Mind" and simultaneously the grammatical construction "[independent clause] so [independent clause]" using the picture book Goodnight Gorilla. My DD had to tell the story in complete sentences (e.g. The gorilla wanted the lion out of his cage SO he unlocked it) while also answering questions about how we the readers know that the zookeeper is unaware of the gorilla's antics (because the keeper is looking forward and the animals are behind him).  There was also some articulation work thrown in because DD is inconsistent with her l's.

[Lecka]

My son is having his first video speech therapy tomorrow.  I hope it goes well.  I’m planning on being in the same room but having him wear a headset, so I won’t hear what his teacher is saying.  That is the plan, if it seems like it’s not going well I am just going to unplug the headset.  
 

Crimson — the Goodnight Gorilla sounds cool and creative :). I love the pictures in that book!

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Crimson Wife said:

If I were a certified SLP working with your DS, I would explain that oral narratives are the foundation upon which writing is built. If your DS can't hold a conversation well enough to tell a basic narrative, then all the writing instruction in the world isn't going to be successful. He has to walk before he can run. I've only skimmed Nurturing Narratives but it looks really good. I recommend reading it if you can get a hold of a copy.

Oh I'm with you, and yes I own NN.  

3 hours ago, Crimson Wife said:

That said, pragmatic language goals should be interwoven with the other expressive language goals like syntax, semantics, etc. My SN child just had teletherapy today and her SLP was working with her on "Theory of Mind" and simultaneously the grammatical construction "[independent clause] so [independent clause]" using the picture book Goodnight Gorilla. My DD had to tell the story in complete sentences (e.g. The gorilla wanted the lion out of his cage SO he unlocked it) while also answering questions about how we the readers know that the zookeeper is unaware of the gorilla's antics (because the keeper is looking forward and the animals are behind him).  There was also some articulation work thrown in because DD is inconsistent with her l's.

VERY nice! If this SLP was offering to do this, we'd be on the same planet. But she's not. You need to send me little cheat sheets on that that SLP does, lol. No I usually know, sigh. I just don't get everything done. We've done some from the Practical Theory of Mind Games book and it was terrific. There's some nitpicky work I want to do and there's that kind of application, contextualized use stuff too. It's all good, all important.

So what is she using for syntax? Materials or a list somewhere that she just applies as she goes through a book? So smart. It takes some PREP to be ready to milk a book like that and hit your goals. These people haven't even bothered to read ds' IEP. I kid you not. They just wing it and don't bother. And I say why don't you read a book with him? and they look at me like I suggested flying to the moon. That was stuff I suggested to the IS, reading a book and milking it for goals, and I don't know why that doesn't communicate anything to her. Ds LOVES books and would enjoy engaging with a picture book together. But nope.

[PeterPan]

So I think I may have figured out what's going on with the IS. Her undergrad may have been IS, but her grad was educational leadership. That's prep to become an administrator, not to work with my ds. He's ASD2 and it's not a joke. And it says that she worked inclusion and resource rooms, never an autism classroom. While I don't think a full autism classroom is where my ds needs to be, reality is an ED classroom was his placement per his IEP for many years and probably would be now if he went to the ps. They put him as mainstream, but we know it would fail. It's just our district pushes inclusion. 

Ugh. And she's writing me back wanting to talk more, and I'm like seriously if you had the type of experience you need to work with my ds, I wouldn't have to tell you what to do. I think she wants me to tell her what to do. I think I'm just gonna pause that. IS are a dime a dozen and I can get someone with a lot more experience in autism and ED classrooms, no problem, drop of a dime.

[PeterPan]

Ok, it's finally making sense why her style is wrong. She's used to pulling kids out of a mainstream classroom. Those are kids you can just jerk around and tell to listen to you, tell to answer questions. NOBODY WHO WORKS WITH A LOT OF AUTISM DOES THAT. They're more respectful and they give themselves to co-regulating and coming alongside and matching their energy and calm with the need of the dc and meeting them where they are.

So she doesn't have the experience (and maybe the personality/bent?) to do this, and I don't have time to train her. And she's really not helping with the abrupt, confrontational, demanding style. And I can see where that's FINE in another setting. But you don't walk up to a dc with ASD2 and language issues and do that. She doesn't have the training or licensure to work with my ds. Hers says mild/moderate, and honestly I think the people working with my ds successfully when I take him places have that higher level of disability licensure and autism/ED classroom experience. I definitely was NOT looking for someone used to only doing pullouts and inclusion. What I was asking for was stuff an ED or ASD classroom teacher would find obvious I think. 

I was just thinking of IS as IS and I assumed she had a masters in it. Even just an MAT would have been better, because she'd be more skillful at TEACHING. But she's dropping the ball on all those points. She trained to be an administrator and she's not ready to work with ASD2, imagine that.

[Terabith]

What does IS stand for?

[PeterPan]

20 minutes ago, Terabith said:

What does IS stand for?

Oh sorry, I've been using that for Intervention Specialist.

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

I think that's language that's pretty specific to your area.  I was thinking Instructional Specialist, or Inclusion Specialist.  To clarify, you are talking about a special educator, right?
 

I don't know what it's called in other states. Our state licenses for mild/moderate or moderate/severe intervention specialist and when you google our state all the universities have undergrad and grad degrees for intervention specialist. Yes, it's what they're licensed in to lead a special ed room (ED, autism, hwatever), do pullouts in a resource room, do inclusion. If you have an SLD and are getting intervention (tutoring, services), you're typically getting that from an intervention specialist. That person is then a major member of the IEP team and often drives the case and the writing of the IEP unless your case is so controversial that it moves up to the district SN coor. And that person usually is an intervention specialist who was with the district a long time.

But yeah, I have no clue what they're called around the country. I just figured if our whole state was calling it that it might be pretty normal. It's way out to say special ed I think. So it's just a nicer way of calling it. 

And you know, that would be interesting if they had people who specialized in intervention vs. ED/autism classrooms. But you know, I think that's also what the mild/moderate vs. moderate/severe licensures mean. And I think there's probably a difference in someone with their masters in intervention vs. undergrad. I'm not sure what employers are looking for. I just know what *assumptions* I made when the provider said they had an intervention specialist, and I didn't realize that what they had been doing in their ps wasn't the level of experience they needed to work with my ds. I get that NOW, lol. Like take @CuriousMomof3 if you asked for tips on how to work with my ds and I told you a range of things he's interested in and said be interesting, would you have trouble being interesting? Probably not. You'd know his label (ASD2) because you'd have read his IEP, and you'd know how to share your calm, meet him where he's at, and connect with him in things that interest him. But this woman is approaching him like he's an ADHD/SLD or ASD1 dc and just walking up and ramming him with questions. And she's asking me over and over what to do, is this good, and it's driving me crazy. I do not have energy to train someone else to do their job. 

So whatever. I'm letting the appt tomorrow happen for my ds because she has prepped, but after that, I'm probably canceling. If it doesn't come together tomorrow, she's done. Two weeks is enough time and I'm not paying for her on the job training. I don't have time for that.

[PeterPan]

14 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I think that there are many people who consider themselves to be ASD specialists who believe that the kind of practice you describe is "behavioral", and emphasize compliance over engagement or connection.  

In our state, autism specialists are typically SLPs or OTs who got a certificate in autism. I kid you not. It's really sort of a self-proclaimed thing, and I agree it could lead to those kind of errors.

[PeterPan]

16 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I would agree with you that a master's in leadership can be a sign that someone is burning out on instruction, but it can also be a sign that someone cares deeply about the education that kids with disabilities get, and wants to be in a position to implement change across settings. 

That's interesting. My friend didn't say burnout, but she did say going that direction was a sign the person wasn't into teaching and wanted to move a different direction. Which means she's pinch hitting and why she's not keeping up with her training. I see your point on the good intentions. My friend was saying that moving into licensure for that required recommendations and that if the person has had that degree and been working in the system and is not getting those recommendations, that's also telling.

So yeah, just overall, this person is going to be a pass for me unless she can figure it out and have a good session and have a good effect for ds. Because the other people working with ds (one new, two previously paired) get good results with ds. His behavior improves, compliance, positivity, engagement, everything, when he has a good session. So if the effect on him is good, she can stay. I would have to see something really positive going on, because I have plenty more options.

[Lecka]

I agree — there are people who are not sensitive.  Yes.  I agree.

There are also people who are more demanding, have higher standards, and get more done.  That can go along with a variety of styles.  There are a lot of styles that can be really effective and also connect with kids.

But sometimes things can be kept light because as soon as there is some demand the child doesn’t like it, so it is just avoided to make those demands.  I think there is a time and a place where demands need to take a backseat to connection and engagement and rapport. 
 

But I think things can be breezy and light and everything is happy, but not as much is being done as far as — some demands that are also wanting to be worked on.

Like — my 9th grader is doing Algebra.  I don’t think it is a goal to make everything so fun and light and carefree that he just does Algebra by someone sneaking it in, but he is having so much fun and is so engaged he doesn’t even know he is doing Algebra.  Certainly I want a positive atmosphere where he is comfortable and low-stress and things, but it is still Algebra.  

[Lecka]

My son’s speech therapy went well. It turns out the headset jack doesn’t fit the laptop well, so we didn’t use it, but all the sound was fine.

It was the speech therapist’s first time to do it and she had trouble with her computer and used her phone instead, and some things she had to show him didn’t show well that way.

But anyway — he did articulation, listening comprehension, and multiple-meaning words.  He did perfect on the listening comprehension.  Articulation — it is good he is having speech.  He struggled.  He did well with multiple-meaning words.  They played tic-tac-toe with that, which he liked.  She said they were all review words and he remembered almost all of them.

She said she was sorry it wasn’t as fun as when he can be in a group, and said she is hoping to have a small group next week of him and another student from his class.  

She froze one time, and then exited the meeting, and then rejoined the meeting.  I think it was on her side and not on our side.  That was the biggest hiccup because Eli was like “what’s going on.”  But it was less than a minute (about a minute probably) and then back on track.

So I think it went well overall with some room for improvement on the technology side.  

[Crimson Wife]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

 So what is she using for syntax? Materials or a list somewhere that she just applies as she goes through a book? So smart. It takes some PREP to be ready to milk a book like that and hit your goals. These people haven't even bothered to read ds' IEP. I kid you not. They just wing it and don't bother. And I say why don't you read a book with him? and they look at me like I suggested flying to the moon. That was stuff I suggested to the IS, reading a book and milking it for goals, and I don't know why that doesn't communicate anything to her. Ds LOVES books and would enjoy engaging with a picture book together. But nope.

Using picture books as part of speech therapy was discussed at length in my undergraduate level Language Assessment & Intervention class. One of the big assignments for that class was to use a picture book with repetitive text (like We're Going on a Bear Hunt) to come up with X number of exercises/activities targeting articulation, semantics, syntax, pragmatics, literacy, and possibly other areas (I took the class in 2017 so I would have to go dig up my report). The point is, it's something a SLP should have received training on some time during his/her Communicative Disorders coursework. 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Crimson Wife said:

Using picture books as part of speech therapy was discussed at length in my undergraduate level Language Assessment & Intervention class. One of the big assignments for that class was to use a picture book with repetitive text (like We're Going on a Bear Hunt) to come up with X number of exercises/activities targeting articulation, semantics, syntax, pragmatics, literacy, and possibly other areas (I took the class in 2017 so I would have to go dig up my report). The point is, it's something a SLP should have received training on some time during his/her Communicative Disorders coursework. 

I wonder how that varies if their BA/BS is something else?

So I was complaining because the IS didn't know how to do this, but you're saying someone with an undergrad in special ed and grad in ed leadership wouldn't know how? I mean, it's almost unfathomable, lol. But really, the undergrad IS major we had working with us (who was doing her internship, basically finished with classes) couldn't do it. That's what I'm realizing, that we may have gotten someone only marginally more qualified than the person I paid $15 an hour to a couple years ago. But we'll see how she does tomorrow. I don't think being able to work in context is limited to one discipline. It's just good teaching.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Crimson Wife said:

Using picture books as part of speech therapy was discussed at length in my undergraduate level Language Assessment & Intervention class. One of the big assignments for that class was to use a picture book with repetitive text (like We're Going on a Bear Hunt) to come up with X number of exercises/activities targeting articulation, semantics, syntax, pragmatics, literacy, and possibly other areas (I took the class in 2017 so I would have to go dig up my report). The point is, it's something a SLP should have received training on some time during his/her Communicative Disorders coursework. 

Oh, fwiw, that also may explain their *obsession* with context. Like I'm all cool with using literature, applying but my ds responds really well to ugly explicit drill/instruction. And yet you're hard pressed to find an SLP who has a taste for it. But I've done it with my ds enough to know it WORKS with him and that it's necessary. For him it's not enough to assume he did it with one verb and can now do that with all verbs of that pattern. He has to do a lot of practice a lot of ways, which means worksheets can be a really solid way of getting that mass work. Maybe that's an autism thing? I don't know. It just seems like SLPs don't have a taste for what it takes or a willingness to do it.

[kbutton]

15 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Oh, fwiw, that also may explain their *obsession* with context. Like I'm all cool with using literature, applying but my ds responds really well to ugly explicit drill/instruction. And yet you're hard pressed to find an SLP who has a taste for it. But I've done it with my ds enough to know it WORKS with him and that it's necessary. For him it's not enough to assume he did it with one verb and can now do that with all verbs of that pattern. He has to do a lot of practice a lot of ways, which means worksheets can be a really solid way of getting that mass work. Maybe that's an autism thing? I don't know. It just seems like SLPs don't have a taste for what it takes or a willingness to do it.

I can't speak entirely to what an SLP is willing to do, but my son is lopsided like that for some subjects, particularly language ones. His areas of language deficit are not so across the board as your son's though, so it doesn't creep into all his language arts. Grammar is a relative strength, for instance, and he learns well by doing a lot of analysis that's picky and not something we just pull from a current read as if often suggested. It's systematic. In context, he sometimes misses the significance of those structures, but it's because of the narrative language problem, not even that it has failed to generalize. When the narrative language piece that USES the grammar structures falls into place, then he automatically uses and notices the structures that he's been taught separately.

I would guess your son's problem goes both ways from things you've said before. 

[On a different content area...may or may not be relevant to this discussion...We've never been able to find much rhyme or reason to his struggles with math--I think there must be a similar problem with math that just plays out differently. We don't have evidence of dyscalculia (his WJ scores show he *should* excel in math), and his issues are really unusual and seem to more about algebra than math in general. He tends to do fine with geometry, and the exposure he's had to stats (depending on how it's taught) has been fine also. I think there must be some big picture thing about algebra he doesn't get. The tutor keeps him moving forward though, so it's okay. If he ever decides to go to college...we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. I doubt he will. It's as much personality as autism to avoid college. ]

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, kbutton said:

In context, he sometimes misses the significance of those structures, but it's because of the narrative language problem, not even that it has failed to generalize. When the narrative language piece that USES the grammar structures falls into place, then he automatically uses and notices the structures that he's been taught separately.

I would guess your son's problem goes both ways from things you've said before. 

That is a good point, that it goes both ways. You can miss the syntax and what's actually supposedly being worked on if it's embedded and not taught explicitly, and then you can reverse and apply it and have to finally click because it's being used in context.

I don't know if that's teaching to my strength or his, haha, because you're right I'm probably more like your ds. However ds *seems* to do well with highly explicit instruction (step one) that gets applied into full narrative (step 2). As long as we do that, best of both words. And I have yet to find an SLP in almost 10 years that is either trained to do that or has the vision.

Well I'm a little torn. This IS is basically pushing ps writing and calling her session great because she let him talk about the app he was playing and turned it into a list. I'm like, hello, the practice you're working in owns SGM and you had access to expository writing materials and how to use a model, work together, fill in a graphic organizer, and turn that into something. Well that and some other things. (poor internet connection, defensive/argumentative/blameshifting when confronted, etc.). So she didn't make the whole session a fight this time, but she's not really getting enough done. If I let her have him 1 hour, that cost me *2* hours of *my* time with him. So she has to be DOUBLE as good as I would have been, and she wasn't. 

So I'm probably going to let her go, especially if I line up someone more compelling over the weekend. Having the bump in hours is AWESOME. I think 6 total is about golden for him right now. He's being compelled to use language over and over and it's WORK and good in a lot of ways. So I may just dump her and use a different provider for more hours.

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Well I'm a little torn. This IS is basically pushing ps writing and calling her session great because she let him talk about the app he was playing and turned it into a list. I'm like, hello, the practice you're working in owns SGM and you had access to expository writing materials and how to use a model, work together, fill in a graphic organizer, and turn that into something. Well that and some other things. (poor internet connection, defensive/argumentative/blameshifting when confronted, etc.). So she didn't make the whole session a fight this time, but she's not really getting enough done. If I let her have him 1 hour, that cost me *2* hours of *my* time with him. So she has to be DOUBLE as good as I would have been, and she wasn't. 

Is she willing to take that list and work it into something expository with the SGM materials? 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

Is she willing to take that list and work it into something expository with the SGM materials? 

I think I'm just getting tired of her anxiety. She's actually badgering me now about stuff. I've put out feelers for a replacement IS elsewhere. If the autism school or any other provider has hours and someone who's already competent, I'm moving on. I don't have time/energy to train her and I don't like her defensiveness and lack of mature problem solving and I don't need her anxiety. I like having the hours, but any reasonable replacement at all (ie. they can hold a conversation) and I'm moving on. She's not carrying her weight. 

She actually blamed me for poor internet connection. I couldn't believe it. Her connection is so crummy she fades in and out, and she's like well EVERYONE I video with looks pixelated. I'm like seriously, you can't figure out that's a clue your bandwidth is low??? I can't fix stupid. Her badgering implies my time isn't important, when it is, and I'm getting weary of her. 

The problem is that low caliber people reinforce bad habits of poor behavior. I've had this happen over and over, where low caliber people made him HARDER to work with.  He was so calm today, she could have made ANY DEMANDS and he would have complied. She couldn't make demands because she didn't prep anything. She didn't come in with ANYTHING academic and interesting prepared to engage his mind to see if he was ready. She's just dillydallying in space. He was SO calm. She got nothing because she gave nothing.

I don't know. I'm trying to be patient with her, but like I said I'm tired of it. Any warm body asks for the hours and this chick is gone.

Edited April 18, 2020 by PeterPan

[kbutton]

45 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

The problem is that low caliber people reinforce bad habits of poor behavior.

True!

[Crimson Wife]

17 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Oh, fwiw, that also may explain their *obsession* with context. Like I'm all cool with using literature, applying but my ds responds really well to ugly explicit drill/instruction. And yet you're hard pressed to find an SLP who has a taste for it. But I've done it with my ds enough to know it WORKS with him and that it's necessary. For him it's not enough to assume he did it with one verb and can now do that with all verbs of that pattern. He has to do a lot of practice a lot of ways, which means worksheets can be a really solid way of getting that mass work. Maybe that's an autism thing? I don't know. It just seems like SLPs don't have a taste for what it takes or a willingness to do it.

Worksheets can be good options for school-aged children. My DD's SLP usually does 1-2 per session. A lot of them are from auditory processing/auditory comprehension books like HELP because that targets both the hearing impairment and the auditory processing disorder. But obviously it's going to vary depending on the client's specific goals.

If a SLP primarily works with toddlers and preschoolers, he/she may not have a lot of worksheets as resources because that's not a developmentally appropriate way to do therapy with very young children.

[Crimson Wife]

2 hours ago, kbutton said:

On a different content area...may or may not be relevant to this discussion...We've never been able to find much rhyme or reason to his struggles with math--I think there must be a similar problem with math that just plays out differently. We don't have evidence of dyscalculia (his WJ scores show he *should* excel in math), and his issues are really unusual and seem to more about algebra than math in general. He tends to do fine with geometry, and the exposure he's had to stats (depending on how it's taught) has been fine also. I think there must be some big picture thing about algebra he doesn't get. The tutor keeps him moving forward though, so it's okay. If he ever decides to go to college...we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. I doubt he will. It's as much personality as autism to avoid college. ]

Have you ever tried Balance Benders with him? It's very concrete in terms of teaching algebra and even my DD who has significant problems with abstract information likes the beginning level.

[Guest]

On 4/14/2020 at 5:56 PM, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

That sounds great.  The issue for us isn't funding, music therapy was his Make A Wish wish, so it's paid for, it's just trying to figure out what it would look like in a session.  Part of the issue is that we had just started, and I think the therapist was just figuring out how to work with DS.  Math tutoring online has been much easier to problem solve, because the tutor knows him so well.  

FWIW, I've been having that problem even with my students who "just" have LD because many of the ways I found that worked well for them are hard to implement online, both for piano and for academic tutoring. I can imagine it would be even more difficult for a child who is as complex as your DS.  I have found that in some ways, online works as well or better for some of my kids who are on spectrum, so I may offer that as an option to parents even once I'm able to reopen the studio.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Crimson Wife said:

Have you ever tried Balance Benders with him? It's very concrete in terms of teaching algebra and even my DD who has significant problems with abstract information likes the beginning level.

No. I think he gets this concept, and his fluid reasoning scores on the WISC (which are visual balance problems) are maxed out. The kind of thinking is there. There is just some kind of disconnect plus a serious dislike.

He hates algebra and finds graphing a total pain. It bothers him that a lot of concepts can be solved with logic and complicated arithmetic, and he'd rather solve things that way. There is just not a lot of rhyme or reason to his issues, but he's moving forward fine with a tutor. She uses Foerster's with the Math without Borders videos, and sometimes she goes sideways with A Fresh Approach algebra (which is kind of wordy for him). It's just really weird and quirky.

I couldn't do algebra without help in high school either--I couldn't find words to ask my questions. When I took trig-based physics my senior year, it helped me make a lot more sense of the math, but my son really doesn't have the stamina to do trig-based physics right now, honestly. 

It took me many years to learn how to figure out what I didn't know--I am a big picture person, and I was usually missing something big picture that was sort of nebulous. I ask better questions now about math, and if I had time to sit in on his sessions, I'd probably turn the tutor's hair gray. She finds my questions make her think about aspects of math she's not thought about before, but she says I'm the only person she's met that would ask them. I suspect my son is similar, but not necessarily stuck on the things I would be either, lol! 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Crimson Wife said:

Worksheets can be good options for school-aged children. My DD's SLP usually does 1-2 per session. A lot of them are from auditory processing/auditory comprehension books like HELP because that targets both the hearing impairment and the auditory processing disorder.

So the HELP series is one of the workbooks I bought a couple years ago when we started our language push. But now I'm curious here. Are you saying needing *that level* of grammar/syntax/language intervention is NOT typical for ASD? All I know is my ds, lol. We had his hearing tested completely at the university right as he was turning 6 and they sort of watched him on the auditory processing. I don't know, just thinking out loud here and asking. I'm with you that right terms lead to right answers. And that wouldn't be shocking if some more labels applied. He's never complained about background noise the way dd does, but he has clearly needed a level of intervention beyond what I've been able to find people willing to provide. And I just assumed the blanket explanation was autism, so I don't know. The audiologists weren't worried about APD, but reality is he failed the TAPS (test of auditory processing skills) a few years ago. I just never paid it any mind, because it was half stuff a dyslexic would fail anyway, kwim? If it's *not* normal to need this level of intervention in autism, then what would the APD test be? Thats back to an audiologist, which I think he'd pass. The SLP testing, I don't know. I just assumed his language funkiness was the asd.

2 hours ago, Crimson Wife said:

Have you ever tried Balance Benders with him? It's very concrete in terms of teaching algebra and even my DD who has significant problems with abstract information likes the beginning level.

Ooo, those look really good! I'm always on the lookout for stuff that is highly structured to use with ds. That would be a real winner and starting at the beginner level would build his confidence.

 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

his fluid reasoning scores on the WISC (which are visual balance problems) are maxed out.

Oh that's interesting! I didn't realize the fluid reasoning scores connected to algebra/math, hmm. The psych's attempt at administering another IQ test flopped, so I dno' tknow if we have valid scores for that.

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Oh that's interesting! I didn't realize the fluid reasoning scores connected to algebra/math, hmm. The psych's attempt at administering another IQ test flopped, so I dno' tknow if we have valid scores for that.

I believe Figure Weights is the section that is the balance stuff. I think it might be entirely symbolic though and not include numbers. I just know the gist--I haven't seen the whole test. Matrix Reasoning is in the Fluid Reasoning score, I think, but it's not balances.

How did it flop? 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

How did it flop? 

Oh that was two years ago. He really was not clicking with that psych, lol. It would be really interesting to go back now and update evals with him on the anxiety meds, hmm.

[Crimson Wife]

Just now, PeterPan said:

So the HELP series is one of the workbooks I bought a couple years ago when we started our language push. But now I'm curious here. Are you saying needing *that level* of grammar/syntax/language intervention is NOT typical for ASD? All I know is my ds, lol.

We switched from a SLP who specialized in autism to one who specializes in deafness back in 2015 after the discovery of DD's hearing loss. DD was still getting ABA from a clinic that used VB-MAPP up until fall of 2018 when #4 was born. So a lot of the work on prepositions, pronouns, form/feature/function, etc. was being done by the ABA team. Whereas the SLP has been focused more on articulation, auditory comprehension, morphology & syntax, and especially narrative language.

[PeterPan]

12 hours ago, Crimson Wife said:

We switched from a SLP who specialized in autism to one who specializes in deafness back in 2015 after the discovery of DD's hearing loss. DD was still getting ABA from a clinic that used VB-MAPP up until fall of 2018 when #4 was born. So a lot of the work on prepositions, pronouns, form/feature/function, etc. was being done by the ABA team. Whereas the SLP has been focused more on articulation, auditory comprehension, morphology & syntax, and especially narrative language.

Whoa, you're rocking my world!! I could find an SLP that specializes in deafness, easy peasy. Just had never occurred to me to look for it. But you're right, they might be much more in the loop on building language from the ground up, which is what I keep trying to do. And yeah, we went through everything in Linguisystems/ProEd Inc that hits your VB-MAPP, ABA type topics. It's just it needs to go farther. And even though I get how everything comes together, I'm also mortal, tired, needing to do laundry, all that other junk. I'm willing to work, but when I have the disability scholarship funding I'd like to be using it to clone and make things happen, kwim? 

So cool, that's such a good tip. I'd take ANYONE who would have experience with this. In the autism community, the spread is more severe. There's either this assumption of no language issues (which didn't serve @kbutton's ds well and she had to fight) or this almost implication that it's not worth bothering, they can't learn. They don't say that, but they don't do much. They just sorta drift along with low expectations of what could be done. And I KNOW he can do more, because every time I bring in excellent materials and make a push we get a big opening. My next step is buying the 6 Trait Daily Writing books you mentioned. I'm going to buy gr 1-4 and run them parallel, going from gr 1-4 in each skill over the course of a week. I think it will take a chunk of time, but I think if we do it he can actually do this, no problem. That was the other thing that struck me, that the issues they're working on in "conversation" are things that would respond well to the cognitive work of the "writing" instruction. And the 6 Trait books are definitely scrupulous in detail, lol. I liked the way they went back and made sure the student really got the concepts. We've done work on these issues, not completely neglected them, but I think there's always a more advanced way to think of them, making connections. So I think if we work like that, we could get a big bump that would show up in OTHER areas. It could be really cool! Or at least it's my theory. And while it's not working on the narrative language goals in his IEP, I kind of feel like those are stalled out till this stuff about emotion clicks in his mind. I'm going to do the Dr. bonyfide series with him. I think it will be sort of a bizarre interoception plus articulation push, haha. We want him to work on getting vocalic Rs in multisyllable academic vocabulary.  

[PeterPan]

Well we got through week 1 for gr1-4 of the 6 Trait Daily Writing workbooks. I'm actually really impressed! Going through from simple to more sophisticated presentations of the topic really got his brain juiced and to a good place, much like the SPARC series from Linguisystems that worked so well for us. And each week comes with 4 worksheets and a day 5 writing task, so he was able to do all the (albeit brief at the lower level) writing tasks. Good stuff! I pointed out to him that this was basically CONVERSATION, that narrowing a topic and thinking up what was interesting about it or who the audience was or what the purpose was was what makes CONVERSATION go well.

So I'm impressed. Now to rinse and repeat 24 more times, lol. Oh and the other nice thing is it's snagging a lot of READING time and really getting him thinking about monitoring comprehension. So it's interesting to see where he reads it and *can* answer or can't. I go back and let him hear it aloud the next time through, because sometimes that helps. The purpose here is instruction, not reading, but it's a good bonus/perk. 

I have some other workbooks printed and collated into packets to do with him also. Found some things on synonyms, basic 4th gr grammar, Super Sentence, mystery reading, that kind of thing. But this week is turkey season, so that may have to wait. I'm just gonna keep pushing on the 6 Trait Daily Writing and see where we get. If it stays good, we can go into the 5th gr book after this. It's also going to bring up the topic of whether a grade adjustment makes sense, because basically he's functioning more on par with *4th* grade right now for everything. It might be time to rebadge officially for IEP and then rebadge one more time before high school. The school has bucked it, saying the IEP solves everything. However it's getting to the point of absurdity and feels like they're just wanting to shove him on through. He's NOT functioning like a rising 6th grader, so it may be time for that to be on the table.

Edited April 21, 2020 by PeterPan

[Lecka]

That sounds good :)

We are hanging in there. Math is going pretty well, audiobooks are going pretty well, and we are working on the th sound.  

[kbutton]

12 hours ago, PeterPan said:

It's also going to bring up the topic of whether a grade adjustment makes sense, because basically he's functioning more on par with *4th* grade right now for everything. It might be time to rebadge officially for IEP and then rebadge one more time before high school. The school has bucked it, saying the IEP solves everything. However it's getting to the point of absurdity and feels like they're just wanting to shove him on through. He's NOT functioning like a rising 6th grader, so it may be time for that to be on the table.

Schools seem to prefer that people wait until about senior year and then defer a diploma while taking advantage of things like Project Search or trying out the local career center (sometimes for a second program if the first wasn't a good fit). 

A pro on waiting is that if you think he's likely to do something vocational in high school, you have that option of delaying the diploma to take advantage of Project Search,  or to have him go through the career center as an older student for just the vocational stuff with more academics out of the way. If you call him 4th right now, then if you need that extra time to do the adjusting that takes advantage of maturity during vocational training, another pass through the career center (happened with a friend's kid), or to go ahead and do nearly all the required classes, but do the career center at 18+, that extra time will no longer be there. 

Also, rigid thinking can derail an optimal career center experience--some kids will get stuck on passing a lower level certification and not try for the harder ones (even if they could do those things), and then they get placed into lower level jobs when they do their job placement or graduate. They just see $$$, and don't realize if they spent their class time learning even more, they would make more $$$ (and some of the lowest jobs are a little more money than after school high school work, but they aren't something that allows you to have options as an adult). 

So, room to grow at the end is not necessarily bad.

[PeterPan]

51 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Schools seem to prefer that people wait until about senior year and then defer a diploma while taking advantage of things like Project Search or trying out the local career center (sometimes for a second program if the first wasn't a good fit). 

A pro on waiting is that if you think he's likely to do something vocational in high school, you have that option of delaying the diploma to take advantage of Project Search,  or to have him go through the career center as an older student for just the vocational stuff with more academics out of the way. If you call him 4th right now, then if you need that extra time to do the adjusting that takes advantage of maturity during vocational training, another pass through the career center (happened with a friend's kid), or to go ahead and do nearly all the required classes, but do the career center at 18+, that extra time will no longer be there. 

Also, rigid thinking can derail an optimal career center experience--some kids will get stuck on passing a lower level certification and not try for the harder ones (even if they could do those things), and then they get placed into lower level jobs when they do their job placement or graduate. They just see $$$, and don't realize if they spent their class time learning even more, they would make more $$$ (and some of the lowest jobs are a little more money than after school high school work, but they aren't something that allows you to have options as an adult). 

So, room to grow at the end is not necessarily bad.

I'll have to look at it. I'm not sure when career center ages out. It's saying Project Search ages out at 22, which means we have a lot of flex honestly. 

See I'm thinking the opposite, that if they push this too hard too fast, I run out of my window to teach him because we move into transition mode too soon. He is basically on grade level if we adjust one back. And there's some sense in that to me, in giving him the chance to learn. And you're saying the kids hit the transition program before they developmentally have the maturity to take advantage of it, which is kind of my point. He's not going to be done baking if we rush him into the workforce. A little extra time learning will get him farther. 

[PeterPan]

25 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

You'd also be setting yourself up for a reduction in services, because they'd want to switch to grade based percentile rankings, IME.

Oh... well good point. Then that works. 

It may just be mental. I do not look at the student I'm teaching and see a rising 6th grader. He has been consistently behind in every way and functions multiple years behind. Even in the how much I should push, what is good for him, am I doing an ok job, that's some of it. Like right now I'm doing gr1-4 of the 6 Traits Writing with him. He's doing GREAT with it and finally has the LANGUAGE to do it in an engaged, productive way! I like what I'm getting! But I'm not sure I can humanly get him through the 5th any time soon, kwim? 

He also doesn't do pleasure reading (except youtube, environment print), and I'd like to get him through a 4th gr reading text this year. If I did that and starting a 5th gr reading text in the fall, I would be really proud. But right now, like today we were doing one of the early lessons in say the gr2 or 3 of the 6 Traits pages and it's asking what are details, which means you read it and INFER the topic and INFER what happened. And that's really HARD for him!!! And they just blithely do it like oh well he'll get there. So it was an instructive moment, but it's very clear there's a lot more we can continue to do on that. And I'm not inclined to rush or push forward and drag him through harder material, because he has done much better where we go back and fill in holes. He wasn't READY by language to do these things earlier, and now he is.

So I guess that means really I need to think about the right reading comprehension program. Either something terribly thorough and slower paced like 6 Traits Writing is *or* something marked as intervention. Kbutton has listed programs here before and we've looked at them.

I guess I'm seeing high potential with strong instruction and I just have to keep DOING it. And I can't let some rush rush get in the way of DOING it. But I agree with you the school will do stuff with the percentages, anything to disqualify and say what's the big deal, lol. That makes sense. And that would be disastrous.

32 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I'm not a fan of retention in general.  The research into it shows that it just doesn't work. 

I know and we've talked about that. However you're talking about a dc who is acknowledged to function 2-3 years behind due to ASD2. On the one hand, puberty happens, natural push to launch happens. And on the other hand, he needs that extra time and instruction. 

I could wait and re-examine at the end of next year-ish. It's just something I think about every year, about this time, because it has been obvious every year he's functioning a year behind. Another thing that could happen is that socially it might be better to have him moved up into junior high before adjusting. 

And the ONLY place the grade appears is on the IEP and the scholarship form. It's not on my homeschooling notification form, nothing else legal. 

So I think if I *don't* retain at all ever, then he has 4 years in transition/career center programs under the high school label. The other curious thing is whether he might do better with more bake time and academic time and then going to a *technical college* instead of a vocational college. I really don't know. Given his auditory sensitivities and that he gets severe headaches (and given his anxiety), I can't see him doing most of the majors at the vocational college. Ok, they have a physical therapy track that lets you train to become a fitness trainer, but REALLY do you want someone with ds' social thinking being your fitness trainer? LOL Granted there's a lot of ASD in fitness. But I'm just saying a bunch of those options go off the list really fast. I'm not sure he's going to be a vocational person. 

I've talked with him about appliance repair, some kind of repair work, but he hasn't bit on that. I think he *could* do it possibly. He's wicked smart and spatial. I'm going to be trying some things on him this year (engine Timberdoodle sells maybe, that kind of thing) to see what happens. But his behaviorist had said to look into him running his own business, something where he could teach people. He's very entrepreneurial, so something where he can offer a service to people who come, repair/manage aspects of it, that she thought would be good for him. And to me that means bake time is good. It gives him time to continue to work on social skills, math, being ready to learn some business skills. There's nothing with business at the vocational center. Sorta surprises me actually.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

I'll have to look at it. I'm not sure when career center ages out. It's saying Project Search ages out at 22, which means we have a lot of flex honestly. 

See I'm thinking the opposite, that if they push this too hard too fast, I run out of my window to teach him because we move into transition mode too soon. He is basically on grade level if we adjust one back. And there's some sense in that to me, in giving him the chance to learn. And you're saying the kids hit the transition program before they developmentally have the maturity to take advantage of it, which is kind of my point. He's not going to be done baking if we rush him into the workforce. A little extra time learning will get him farther. 

Well, at least one reason they give the room to grow at the end vs. adjusting earlier is because kids generally start getting uncooperative at a certain age. If you have to graduate an uncooperative kid early, and they miss Project Search, at least if you've called them the age grade vs. their adjusted down grade. If you end up with an uncooperative kid later on, you're going to have to really explain how you graduated your 18 y.o. tenth grader if you adjust a bunch. Even if the level of the work is not there because the kid is behind, calling it 10th grade means they are going to think you're shortchanging your kid's education. 

It's never as pure and pristine as we want a decision to be. 🙂 

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

The other curious thing is whether he might do better with more bake time and academic time and then going to a *technical college* instead of a vocational college. I really don't know.

You should visit your local career center (and if you don't like, some in other counties--many allow open enrollment to a certain extent, and a fit for an IEP student is something that can be weighed in). They often offer programs that would cost a LOT more when obtained through a technical college (which is often for profit). Many of the programs are stepping stones to a technical college option, but they often have relationships with employers so that the student can get hired and then have additional training paid for, or they have relationships with specific programs that are a better deal (like scholarships to certain local programs that offer additional training). 

The career centers can also do a combination of aptitude and interest testing and match those areas to programs they have and careers they feed into within each of those areas. It's very good information. It's not just tech stuff--they measure some math and language skills in a way that's different than more academic tests do. Some of the testing is hands-on. They give their impressions of your student's way of handling and presenting himself before, during, and after testing and talk about that. It's really good. You'd usually request this around 10th grade.

[Lecka]

We had a chance to retain in 2nd grade, but decided not to.  My son is already older for his grade (with a November birthday) and we didn’t want him to be the huge kid in his class.  It’s turned out he is not having an early growth spurt (he is 11 1/2 now) but he is average for his size.  
 

I have to say though, he seems like a rising 6th grader now and not like a rising 5th grader.  I think he is ready for middle school.  I think he is wanting greater independence like he will have in middle school.

We plan to move, but I have heard here and our previous location — that middle school is a big push for independence compared to elementary school.  
 

At the IEP meeting where we discussed it, there was also a feeling that while we could go either way with pros and cons on both sides, that it can be nice to have more time at the older end.  We assume my son will be in public school special Ed (in some form) until he ages out.  We can have more flexibility at the older age.  
 

Especially considering he has a November birthday. 

[Lecka]

There was thought that if my son repeated 2nd grade he could be mainstreamed more with his same 2nd grade classroom teacher.  He was close on it.  But we have seen special needs kids be held back and end up being huge compared to other kids.  Also when we were at a K-6 school, some old-for-grade special needs 6th graders were the biggest kids in the school and stood out.  
 

I also know that at middle school some things are different and I think fit kids by age even when they do have special needs.  I think they just treat the kids older than they do in an elementary school.  It is the impression I have anyways.  
 

 

[Lecka]

It was not realistic in 2nd grade to think that if he did a re-set he would be able to stay with that level moving forward.  
 

With people I have known — what happens is that they think maybe it can be a re-set and then kids can stay with that level going forward, and keep up with their new grade level.  
 

With people I have known it doesn’t end up working out that way.  I am sure there is some selection bias in there but it has been the case with people I have known and it will be kids similar to my son.
 

I think when kids can repeat K or spend an extra year in pre-school and then move forward with that age group — that is a different situation.  
 

I think the studies are difficult because they (in general) don’t account for kids getting extra help if they are held back.  (As often kids don’t get extra help if they are held back.)

My husband was held back and with his experience, if he had caught up as a result of being held back (by getting extra help) he thinks he would have been fine with it.  But it’s extremely demoralizing to be held back and still have a hard time.  In my opinion he had unidentified and untreated dyslexia.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Lecka

[Lecka]

I just saw the point about percentiles being grade based instead of age based.  I had not been aware of that but that is a really good point.