How's it going?

[PeterPan]

Ds finally had a good day yesterday, a happy, calm, his usual self day. It has been the first in over a month since this mess started. I got a scrip from the doc for anxiety meds, but that was upping his dopamine and perversely making him more irritable even while less anxious. So for now, we're keeping the dose really low and countering it with more niacin, sigh. And with such a hodgepodge, hack approach we seem to have gotten a good day. I'm not sure whether it's a long term solution, but I'll take it. 

He had been staying up every night till 1am or later, which I think was literally the anxiety. He was just so stuck. And once we got that balance right, he stopped being stuck and could lie down and listen to an audiobook and get to sleep. But he was so defensive, so struggling, it was really hard to see through those behaviors and view them as anxiety. The first night with the meds was really dramatic, where he got it in his system and just curled up and went to sleep. But then his dopamine levels went up and the irritability started, sigh. The med is not an SNRI but an agonist for a bunch of things. So the serotonin and others are good but the dopamine is bad. 

Anyways, that's all. We're working on frustration tolerance with his academics.                                             Tangoes Paradox                                       These really give him a run for his money. We finished the Tangoes Jr kit, which let him learn how to do the approach overall. Now it's staying calm and trying options to get them. The B level are pretty hard for him! It's like his whole approach to problem solving is random. Maybe I need to go easier? Maybe he hasn't figured out problem solving and how to think through the steps? Dunno.

I have other things going (a SL readaloud, drawing, math stuff, etc.). The Lakeshore Learning kits continue to go well. I don't know if I'm going to buy more of the crossword with tiles kits or not. I probably should. The cost is so ouch, and I'm not sure how he'll do with the multiletter phonograms. I like what it does for his brain to work on a more complicated task. It's much harder to look at a picture, retrieve the word or options for words, think through which matches the letters already on the board. It's just a really good workout or him and sort of meets him with a nice challenge. He engages with it, so maybe I'm being dingy and should just get the other sets? Whatever. We're not going through multiplication as quickly as I'd like, but the mental health junk has been the issue there, not my willingness. You can't work with a goat.

We're ramping up telehealth hours, which has become a really nice side effect of this whole virus mess. I think he's actually enjoying it, because he's getting to work with a variety of people without the hassle of the transportation. Of course he could have that in school, hello. But anyways, we're taking those hours up. He's hitting 2 with SLP, 1-2 with the new IS, and maybe adding another 1-2 with another SLP for something with language or pragmatics. I'm not actually sure what this new person wants to do, but it's more about getting him over this hurdle of working with new people by just doing it over and over. So his office space is the same and he shows up and there may be someone new to work with and he has to deal. Sorta like school. And we're hoping maybe the anxiety med will help with that too. He's always needed 3 months to get used to a new person, so we're pushing him pretty hard here, ramping up.

Oh and we have music therapy! That has been a real bright spot for him.

PS. The chain reactions kit from Lakeshore has been very good. It is easy to break into discrete chunks and he enjoys making up his own things, adaptations of the builds.

Edited April 14, 2020 by PeterPan

[prairiewindmomma]

There was a reason my kid was in school.

Phew. It has been a transition.

I'm a much better mom when I am also not their teacher.  I had the ability to recharge and come back at it fresh. 

We are finding a groove. Things are getting better.  But this is not thriving for me. 

[Lecka]

I am struggling to spend time not looking at news.  
 

Things going well:  keeping up with cleaning, two younger kids are keeping up with their math.  
 

Audiobooks are working out with my son with autism!  I tried it again after getting the suggestion here, and it is going well!  
 

More positives:  my sons are spending more time together, my younger son is playing with some magnet toys more.  My daughter has a lot of time to read.  
 

I am sad for all my kids to be missing out on things.  
 

We had my son’s IEP meeting over Google Hangout, and he was recommended for mainstream math and PE.  He would be starting now if school was in.  His teacher shared that he really enjoys getting to “be the teacher” when they take turns being the teacher in his math group.  I think he has been so fortunate to have a supportive environment at school.

He is happy at home, though, and handling it the best out of my kids.  There is nothing he loves more than staying in pajamas all day, he loves it when he can do that on a Saturday when we don’t have anything.  It is like every day is Saturday for him now.  

My oldest son misses his friends, my daughter is starting to be a little bored.  We’re looking for a craft project for her.  I have been helping/teaching her do finger weaving the past few days.  I know how to do basic crochet, some embroidery, and cross stitch.  We might start a knitting project and try to learn together from the Internet.  It’s undecided but she favors knitting at this point, she is looking at tutorials to see what she thinks.  

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

We’re doing decently. Taking life one day at a time, keeping to our regular schedule as much as possible. 

DS was officially assessed in early March & diagnosed ADHD-H/I. By the time we got his results back things were too hectic to meet with his pediatrician, so we haven’t begun to try out any therapies or medication yet. We did give her a head’s up at his well check that he was being assessed, so she knows we’ll need to get together to go over options when possible. 

We’ve homeschooled without intervention (or a diagnosis) this long, I can hang in there until this blows over... 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Shoes+Ships+SealingWax

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

But this is not thriving for me.

I know, sigh. I think we'd have a struggle even getting him to school, and we'd have a long drive (40-45 min each way). And really, the mental health stuff just has to be dealt with. There's not a real way around that. It's just fatiguing. And at least he's engaged. 

I did some screaming today over why in the world EVERY PERSON WORKING WITH HIM wants to work on social, when that's NOT the most pressing problem. Like hello, he's struggling to write a sentence when given 5 words, and you're worried about his conversations??? How about actually WORKING with him? I swear they're all lazy overpaid and inflated in their brains. They don't want to BRING it and it's really, really frustrating me. 

I work my BUTT OFF trying to understand what he needs and do stuff, and when I pay $100 an hour I just want the person to BRING it. If they're not going to, just say they want to phone it in and bill at $40 an hour, kwim? But no, they don't want to prep or think or innovate or meet him where he is AT ALL. The last idiot literally said that her next step was to TELL HIM TO LOOK AT HER and demand conversation. I'm like (I'm not a profane woman) you're practicing out of field!!!!!!!!! No wonder she doesn't know how to use best practices (which that certainly is NOT), because she isn't wanting to do the WORK of her actual field!!

And then the SLPs who are like oh I want to work on conversation. And I'm like hello syntax, lexicon, expressive language. Nope that's not my area. So they refer us to another one who supposedly does expressive language and she's like oh I want to do "social language." 

They're LAZY LAZY LAZY. And it makes me ANGRY. Because I deal with serious real stuff and I get these people who have a masters supposedly in a field and don't want to think and bring it but want to bill at 6X my dh' paygrade. And I ain't got time for it.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

K'nex roller coasters

*I* love K'nex, and I'll bet your boys would too. I have a ridiculous collection. We did a lot when ds was really really young and haven't done as much the last few years. I have the ball machine I want to do with him, but it has SO many pieces he wigs out and loses patience. But yeah, super love k'nex. Now will it trump lego? Haha, dunno. And you can see the instruction pdfs online through their website by putting in the model number from the front of the box. So that way you can see if that set would be doable. 

Also notice the coasters come in mini and traditional. I like the traditional, but the thinner pieces are fine. The pricepoints are sometimes really low. I think we just did a kit                                             K'NEX Education - STEM Explorations: Swing Ride Building Set                                       I can check which it was. It's still partially assembled in our office, lol. Ok, checked, it's traditional. It was a really nice set, interesting to assemble, not too hard. Your ds are up and down from my ds11, right? I would start there. This 3:1 also looks nice                                             K'NEX Thrill Rides - 3-in-1 Classic Amusement Park Building Set                                       They have education kits, all kinds of stuff. It's just your boys might enjoy having the motors. I like kits like this                                             K’NEX Imagine – Power and Play Motorized Building Set – 529 Pieces – Ages 7 and Up – Construction Educational Toy                                       that have instructions for lots of projects, but I think heavy lego addicts might be sort of beyond those. Maybe show them. More the rides would be the way to go probably.

I'm looking at the coasters, but a lot of what I have were bought when they were on sale, so like $20 or $30. Those are now $$$. The thinner/mini rods are really persnickety, and I find them painful to snap together and apart. The track on them is kind of fun and the little cars really fly. Just depends on what you want. Remember, once you have parts you can download pdfs for the other kits and just build. So really what you're doing is getting parts and getting different kinds of motors. I wish I had electric (plug in, not battery) motors. That would be stellar. But when I called they said they didn't sell them separately, sigh. You start to turn into a power fiend. Well that and you can stay up late at night look at stuff like 

 

 

 

 

[PeterPan]

5 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

Can you tell he how music therapy has been going for you virtually?

We have officially put music therapy on "pause", and I'm not sure if we'll go back, but I'd love to hear how it's working for other people.  The only things we're doing right now virtually are math tutoring (DS10 and 12) and psychotherapy (DS12 and 9, and ironically not the kid with major mental illness).

Oh his music therapist is a marvel! She's so bubbly (are they all? lol) and she really brings it. Plus they have good rapport. Well that and I snagged a ukelele from the library before it closed. So they're able to start on the instruments together and then have other shared experiences. They're only doing a 1/2 hour right now. Music therapy is very fatiguing for him, because it's hitting weak parts of his brain. So we'd like to take it back up to 45 minutes, but for right now I'm just happy that he's coming out calm after 30, staying in the room, participating nicely. Remember, has ASD, so we have a bunch of behavioral goals we're hitting, like waiting, did we mention WAITING, conversation, etc. I should probably tell her she can take the session up, lol. He's been doing really well. I just don't want him worn out. 

So yeah, the way these therapies work, they're either accredited by their orgs to be done that way or not. So OT is *not* licensed/certified/whatever to be done online. Our state is temporarily allowing it, but that was part of the controversy. But other things are recognized by their orgs to be legit and equivalently (in general, not to the point of stupidity obviously) provided online. So yes, they can find ways to do music therapy together. I'm not totally sure how, but they're working it out. And he is coming out engaged, looking like he has worked hard, responding well, so it's just a win win.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

  He and DS12 just finished a chemistry unit, and I'm considering getting some astronomy stuff for them.  I also ordered a unit on Narnia that might be my first experiment in teaching all three boys together. 

Ooo, what was the chemistry unit! Maybe we can blow some things up when ds finishes the chain reactions kit, hahaha. I ordered the Memoria Press Narnia materials but we dropped their online class. It become obvious ds wasn't ready to participate in that and get anything out of it. And I'm not going to let the books get killed. LitWits was offering a free guide from their set, but I haven't done that yet. I should see if it's still available and get that done. Someone else here (Jenn72) said they were awesome.

Well I'm full of easter clearance sale chocolate. I had to make sure the Dove Dark Chocolate, Dove Milk Chocolate, Reese Eggs, and Ghiradelli carmel bunnies would not poison my family. You know how that is. 

[kbutton]

8 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Music therapy is very fatiguing for him, because it's hitting weak parts of his brain. So we'd like to take it back up to 45 minutes, but for right now I'm just happy that he's coming out calm after 30, staying in the room, participating nicely. Remember, has ASD, so we have a bunch of behavioral goals we're hitting, like waiting, did we mention WAITING, conversation, etc. I should probably tell her she can take the session up, lol. He's been doing really well. I just don't want him worn out. 

So, have you told his other service providers that he's working on conversation with the music therapist? It might calm them down a bit. 

Regarding the next quote (it won't let me type after it)...

So, I get the frustration of people being pigeonholed, etc. and not bringing their A game for A game pay--BTDT. But I have some possible insight into why they harp on it.

• They might not realize that he, in particular, makes better progress with underlying skills in place that were skipped over. Each new person doesn't know his history, and they are coming into it in the middle. 
• He has ASD. Social will always be a concern and brought up just due to that fact. People know it's a huge issue for employment, etc., so they are always going to bring it up.
• Does he have social goals in his IEP, and if so, are they being serviced? My provider gets way, way stuck on this. You can have goals and not be working on them, and that really messes her up. Also, quite frankly, she sees unworked goals as money we're not spending on her services. She does NOT understand that time is finite and that she's given me people in the past who don't follow instructions, who overreach (like working on goals that are not theirs and ignoring the goals that are), etc. I have two tutors who are excellent, but one doesn't have the right degrees, so she has to be paid like an aide. She is hands down the most effective person to ever work with my son, and I had to ask the provider to hire her, lol!!! 
• Have you asked them why they are harping on social? Then, did you connect the dots from his current level of functioning and need to their concern to show them that he needs x or y before social becomes a big deal to you? They might need the handholding. 
• Flip side of the last item--are they picking up on something that maybe they aren't making clear enough to you? Are you just talking past each other?

Even with people who want to dial it in because their not teachers and therefore "shouldn't" have to work outside of therapy hours, sometimes you can still find common ground, particularly if you have a tool or something you want them to use.

Also, one of my son's tutors always builds a little independent work into intervention sessions so that she can be looking ahead at what's next and prep a little bit. The scholarship does not give prep time, and she has a FULL caseload, so that's about the only way she can do it. I let her know up front that I would be okay with that. In this case, my son is having long sessions with her twice per week, not just a one hour session, so that makes a difference too. 

So, music therapy is not through the scholarship, right? Could you make IEP goals that are social in nature that go along with MT and then just report on them yourself informally (but let the SLP and IS people know to shut them up)? Some of my son's goals are ones that I work on with him, such as planner checks. The school just takes my description of his progress yearly, and we update what we want to work on next. No big deal. You could maybe do the social stuff sideways through music therapy and calm everyone down (just a suggestion).

26 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I did some screaming today over why in the world EVERY PERSON WORKING WITH HIM wants to work on social, when that's NOT the most pressing problem. Like hello, he's struggling to write a sentence when given 5 words, and you're worried about his conversations??? How about actually WORKING with him? I swear they're all lazy overpaid and inflated in their brains. They don't want to BRING it and it's really, really frustrating me. 

I work my BUTT OFF trying to understand what he needs and do stuff, and when I pay $100 an hour I just want the person to BRING it. If they're not going to, just say they want to phone it in and bill at $40 an hour, kwim? But no, they don't want to prep or think or innovate or meet him where he is AT ALL. The last idiot literally said that her next step was to TELL HIM TO LOOK AT HER and demand conversation. I'm like (I'm not a profane woman) you're practicing out of field!!!!!!!!! No wonder she doesn't know how to use best practices (which that certainly is NOT), because she isn't wanting to do the WORK of her actual field!!

And then the SLPs who are like oh I want to work on conversation. And I'm like hello syntax, lexicon, expressive language. Nope that's not my area. So they refer us to another one who supposedly does expressive language and she's like oh I want to do "social language." 

They're LAZY LAZY LAZY. And it makes me ANGRY. Because I deal with serious real stuff and I get these people who have a masters supposedly in a field and don't want to think and bring it but want to bill at 6X my dh' paygrade. And I ain't got time for it.

 

8 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Anyways, that's all. We're working on frustration tolerance with his academics.                                             Tangoes Paradox                                       These really give him a run for his money. We finished the Tangoes Jr kit, which let him learn how to do the approach overall. Now it's staying calm and trying options to get them. The B level are pretty hard for him! It's like his whole approach to problem solving is random. Maybe I need to go easier? Maybe he hasn't figured out problem solving and how to think through the steps? Dunno.

 

I think there is some kind of gestalt with Tangoes that clicks or doesn't, FWIW. I think it has to do with proportionality and being able to reliably tell what size things are going to be when you combine them--there are so many ways to make the same shape, but not have the proportions be right. I used to be quite good at them, but I stopped, and it's not much fun to pick them up again, lol! It's like my brain jettisoned the information when I stopped doing them.

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I'm not sure if we're going to buy more legos, or branch out into something else, maybe the K'nex roller coasters and theme park rides?

Do they already like K'nex? I ask because my kids love Legos, but they're not really into K'nex. They've tried multiple times, but it's just not that fun for them. My older DS does like Lego Technic though--the sets are $$$ though. He tends to save up to buy them or ask for people to go together to get them as gifts. Most sets can make multiple things, and you can add lights and motors. My son likes to build exactly what is on the box though because they're often based on something real (like specific models of cars, which he's nuts about).

[Lecka]

Peter Pan — are they trying to gain his attention to do the session?  
 

I think if you had similar conversation goals/techniques across providers, that would be a lot of chances to practice and could be good.

If this is about gaining/keeping his attention or building a rapport, those might be things they see a need for in order for them to work on the other goals.  
 

Can you ask them?  
 

If you have certain goals/techniques you want to focus on, can you share that?  Can you say “after speaking with Speech Therapist” or “in his IEP it says” and share this?

Just some thoughts.

This is also a suggestion but if it is about gaining attention, you could give an alternative suggestion for him to show he is paying attention.  Like — “pick up your pencil and get ready to write” can also be a way to show “I’m listening, I’m following directions” that might be easier for him to do.  
 

Edit:  in other words — are they doing it to do it, or is he not looking at the camera etc such that it is hard to work with him — they can’t tell if/when he is paying attention, etc.  

Edited April 14, 2020 by Lecka

[kbutton]

9 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

That didn't really answer your question though, which is would DS10 like K'nex?  I think so?

If he likes a lot of different materials, he'll probably be fine. I just always hear the suggestion to get K'Nex if kids like Legos, and it didn't really do it here. :-) 

[Lecka]

Also, if I had a goal of doing tangoes, to try to promote an orderly method, I would try to teach an orderly method.

I would do it one of two ways.  

First way — if he went in any order but just haphazardly, I would take a picture of each step and have him do it in steps with the picture.  Do that with a few and see if he starts doing it the orderly way.

Second way — pick an orderly way.  Does this mean lay out pieces first?  Does this mean start in the center and work out?  Does this mean start at the top right and go circular?  Pick something that makes sense.  Take individual pictures.  Do that with a few. Then see if he adopts some orderly part when he does it on his own.  Not to 100% follow the method — but to incorporate some of it.

I think a lot of methods like this can be taught this way.  Kids practice doing them and start to incorporate parts of the methods on their own.  
 

Many kids would pick things up like this from watching others or from doing a similar method when they did other kinds of puzzles.  I think it’s fine to teach it more explicitly and with more steps to help the pattern to have a chance to sink in.  
 

I don’t know if it is a good goal to do that, but that is how I would teach it if the goal was to approach it in an orderly way.  

[Lecka]

Another idea is to work the first half so he finishes it and there is already some order applied that he is more likely to finish.  

[kbutton]

We're doing really well. The boys are really enjoying themselves and enjoying coming up with household projects to tackle. 

This time of year, we're starting to finish up some of our subjects here and there which gives us a little more time. Travel time to tutoring and music has also been cut, which helps a great deal. 

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, kbutton said:

-are they picking up on something that maybe they aren't making clear enough to you?

No actually what's happening is that the main provider, whom I never talk with, is getting in the middle of everything and telling these other people what I want. And I'm just getting really irritated because I don't seem to be able to communicate what I want, no matter how I try. They reinterpret it to do what their BOSS said. And I'm the boss, not her.

[Lecka]

Do you have anything in writing with the main provider, saying what goals are or what techniques are, etc?

I used to have a treatment plan with ABA (that our insurance required) and it would list the goals and progams/techniques.

And then we have an IEP for school though it can be a lot more vague (but I think it can be good for teachers to be able to be flexible).  
 

Anyway — is there something like that you can look at from the main provider?  Does he/she have something in writing wrt your son?  
 

Maybe if you can see it you can see what the rationale is behind what he/she is telling the other providers, and then see if you can compromise?

I think too, sometimes with a request they will spend time to look and think and maybe come back with changes or agreements, when maybe things have been going on auto-pilot or overly generic, just from being busy or not realizing there was a need to review things.  
 

How frustrating!

[kbutton]

7 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

No actually what's happening is that the main provider, whom I never talk with, is getting in the middle of everything and telling these other people what I want. And I'm just getting really irritated because I don't seem to be able to communicate what I want, no matter how I try. They reinterpret it to do what their BOSS said. And I'm the boss, not her.

So, does the provider have ill intent? Is she militantly ignorant about what services you need?

Mine gets all kinds of irritable that I don't use up all our funds every year, just what we need that works (and I've fired someone who was, "not working," which bothered her...but she drove off a worker that was an excellent fit for us, so there). She also changes small things from year to year, doesn't tell parents, and then when I say, "I thought this worked like this...," she gets cranky pants for being caught out. 

Thick skin required, for sure!

[PeterPan]

43 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Do you have anything in writing with the main provider, saying what goals are or what techniques are, etc?

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, that I need to say what IEP goal I want serviced. I'm very ethereal, pie in the sky, and I think I was hoping this person would read my mind. Reality is I have more conferences, more training, more ideas. She has more experience doing what she does, and I have the training without the experience, ie theories. But if I say he has this goal in the IEP that I want you to service, that is clear as mud.

And I talked with ds tonight and it was exactly as I thought. I said if she read a book with you and said let's research and fill in these organizers and make a powerpoint would you do it? And he's like yeah, I'd push back, but it would be fine. LOL Meanwhile these idiots are complaining that he won't look at them and they don't use a headphone/microphone, don't upgrade their bandwidth to have clear sound, and don't actually bring/plan anything to DO. 

And if someone wants to say a masters level IS can't do a project like I just described, then seriously we just have a gap. If someone wants to bill $80 an hour, they better be able to use a graphic organizer from the narrative language program the provider owns and do a cohesive, engaging project targeting skills. That's stinking ABSURD to say they can't. But why do I have to spell that out?? Why do *I* have to do the work for them? Did THEY not read the stinking IEP and see narrative language goals affecting fiction and expository writing? They're in there. Do *I* have to tell the $80 and $125 an hour therapists which curriculum, what steps, and how to do it?

I don't have time for that. It's easier to do it myself. I just had the delusional thought that by the time they worked as an IS in the ps they actually knew how. Dumb me.

[PeterPan]

Ok, I wrote them. Maybe not nicely enough, but I wrote them. Frankly, when someone says they're demanding eye contact, I fire them. That is just so offensive to me. It's controlling, manipulative, uninspired, and lazy. It means they haven't cared to be trained in best practices, and it means they don't RESPECT your dc AT ALL. Sorry, but would you EVER walk up to a NT dc and DEMAND they make eye contact? Only in a punitive situation, and even then it's just controlling and rude. To treat someone on the spectrum like that is outrageous.

So I don't know how this laziness of everyone wanting to work on conversation got promulgated, but it did. I checked his IEP, and this "social language" term is from one page of his (admittedly thick) IEP. He has FOUR OTHER PAGES of language goals. So you tell me WHY these people, mostly SLPs, are all fired up about one page of the IEP and want to IGNORE all the rest? Laziness. They don't want to prep, don't want to learn new tools, don't want to get trained, don't want to gather materials.

And fine, cuz I don't have time for that. If I have him work with them, I lose time getting him there (to the room, when we might be in another room engaged in another activity), time setting up, time afterward as he recovers. They have to bring SOME VALUE. And they really oughta pull their weight and bring it. If you want to bill at $125 an hour, you have to do more than what some $15 an hour person off the street can do, sorry.

Edited April 15, 2020 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

Hey @CuriousMomof3 thanks for liking that. I don't even know if I'm unreasonable. I was too vague, yes. I should have literally said these are the IEP goals I want you to address. That's MY FAULT that I was out there in lala land. I was so worried about what I DIDN'T want done that I didn't really say what I did. But it really pisses me off that people diss and dismiss as a homeschooler when I think my theories on this are solid. I think I see how the pieces fit together. I've made a LOT OF EFFORT getting training so that I can recognize best practices or good practices or the logic of how intervention should happen. But then when I hire some professional for $80-125 an hour, they don't want to bring it!

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

Absolutely 100% agree with you. 

And here's my problem. This IS is ADORABLE otherwise. Like seriously adorable. If she'd just bring it and prep something and actually DO something, she'd be a really nice blend in the team, kwim? And I do that, wanting people for what they bring. That's why I try to give people room. But like seriously, don't say your thing is conversation if you know crap nothing about how to intervene on it. And then when I said what else could you do, she's like oh I have a social skills curriculum. I'm like SERIOUSLY??? 

They literally think that shoving social thinking at someone will solve everything. He's a GIFTED HUMAN. He yearns to be able to think and problem solve and be competent, like anyone else. If you want to work on social skills or emotions, why not bring in the writing/reading/language goals and do that as a research project??? Why not build competence and his sense of himself as a learner.

And you know, I used VERY PRECISE TERMINOLOGY THERE. I went to OCALICON and heard the lingo, and they're like "We need to teach our kids to view themselves as learners." and I was like ok, if I say this to a ps professional, they will GET what I'm talking about. So WHY, WHY, WHY does this woman not know that??? Why does that not communicate something to her??? It's THEIR jargon, what the professionals say. I said it and I thought she would understand. And instead, all I did was talk right past her.

So then I'm the bad mother and demanding and outrageous. But I SAID I wanted him to view himself as a learner. I don't know. It just mystifies me.

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

So, write them again in the morning, and say "I wanted to clarify, these are the goals I want to address . . . "

Well I wrote that tonight. Just not as nicely as possible. I got nicer by the end. But it's pretty clear in the email that I'm giving the IS a lot of leash. And usually people who bill at $80-125 get pissy about being given leash and just quit. Because it makes it look like you don't have any confidence in them or don't like working with them or don't trust them or something.

I just, I don't know. I swear it's the hardest thing. I mean, I can deal with bruises and ds' mental health junk. At least that makes sense. But a professional who doesn't want to do their job, that doesn't make sense to me. Or in the ps are IS (who are not behaviorists, not anything, they're EDUCATORS) really doing social skills all day long??? Not intervention, just social skills??? I mean, seriously??? 

I'm ranting. Some of these fields are doing a lot of crossover, and I don't think it serves our kids well. We end up with a lot of people doing stuff they aren't excellent at. Rant rant.

[PeterPan]

Just now, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

Because some people view kids with ASD as broken, and so they put all their energy into "fixing" what they perceive as broken, which is generally the social skills piece, when they should be helping the child to become who they were meant to be.  

YES!!!!! And that's why I was so angry, because I finally realized today why she was being so mean and authoritative. At first I thought it was because she just needed to get control to be able to make demands. I'm like fine, I'll roll with you. But now I'm realizing, she literally thinks he's broken. She has no picture of the steps he can take to be a competent, confident human being or what her part would be in that.

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

So, maybe it's a good thing if your email was a little too harsh and she quits.

Yeah, pretty much I wanted to give her the *chance* to step up to the plate. If the problem is me, then let her rise to the occasion. And if it's not, she can quit.

And really, sometimes what this does is coalesce and energize me, because then I'm like ok, nobody else is going to rescue you, suck up buttercup... 

Edited April 15, 2020 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

5 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

Either my kids really need to see that, or they really don't for the sake of my budget.

I can tell you that I got our collection by way of some really impolite *sniping* on ebay... I actually felt bad about it, because I imagined myself snatching toys from other 16 yo boys wanting to collect K'nex parts to build coasters, lol. But there you go, that's what I did. And at the time, I was getting pretty good prices. Then things got harder to get and prices went up.

I think they've rereleased some of the classic kits. At the time there was one kit that everyone tried to collect because it was foundational. Then when you had 6-8 of those you could just build any kahuna you dreamed up. But yeah, it's a little crazy. I'm hoping he gets my vision by high school because I totally need to do this, lol. 

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

We had pretty good therapists before COVID, and even then, while there are many things I hate about COVID, stopping therapy isn't one of them.  We already cut way back in December, but now DS10 isn't doing anything but math tutoring, which is slightly ironic given that my other two still have therapy.  

Yeah, that's the thing. When I'm really tired or out of sync or distracted (or insert other words), I want help. And then when I feel more spunky, I'm like bye, I've got this. And sometimes I really do have it, and sometimes it's good to have variety.

So I was trying to stretch myself, to be open to new things, to try some things. It's a special season right now, with the state allowing us to fund tele services. And I've been so distracted and stressed I was like let's embrace this.

And you know, it hasn't been all a loss. Ds is really doing some shut up, put up with yourself, work with someone even if you weren't in the mood, kwim? And that's good stuff. There's value to trying to engage with someone you don't find immediately easy. And he hasn't come out ranting and doing his usual major level of refusals. I really appreciate that. But I think people can bring a bit more A game, that's all.

Oh, I said A game tonight, and ds was completely befuddled, lol. I tried for 20 minutes to explain B movies, still he didn't get it, lol. So now we need to watch all those movies with Judy Garland and Mickey Roony to see if he can figure it out. 

[PeterPan]

9 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

It looks fun to me.  Are you also a lego fan?  I'm always wary because sometimes what seems like a little step to me, seems like a huge jump to my kid.  

Are you asking about me personally? We were poor growing up, like really dirt poor. Maybe not dirt poor, but close. We lived in a trailer in the country and were often COLD. Sigh. You end up with these fettishes about basics like the ability to be warm or hang pictures. 

Anyways, my fine motor is kind of persickety, so I'm not terribly good at legos. I struggled with them as a kid but asked for a kit anyway, explaining to my mom how they'd be good for girls. But gender bias (and the $$ probably) intervened and I never got the legos. A couple years ago I started collecting Lego Architecture kits for myself. I've done some with ds, and I have them either to do with him or by myself later. They fit my sort of bland, nitpicky repetitive approach to life, lol. But no, I'd be junk at making anything original at Lego, lol.

Ds on the other hand is really good at making lego stuff! He has a bin I call the coffin full of legos and another small bin of technic. I finally got him a smallish run to keep them contained so they wouldn't skitter around so much. He abruptly dropped them a few months ago and hasn't played with them since, sigh. I don't know if he will again or not. I still have some larger kits we haven't done. The one he doesn't seem to have the endurance for yet, but I think it's rate 13+. 

[Lecka]

I 100% will ask kids to look at me if I am trying to see if they are hearing me or aware I am speaking to them.  
 

I think there is a lot of gray area where it’s fine to ask kids to show they have heard you speak to them, without it being a huge “look me in the eye” moment.  
 

And I think there are alternatives, too.  
 

I have also had goals related to my son orienting his body towards the person he is talking to.  I think that is a legitimate goal.  We dropped it once he was facing the right direction, didn’t get into wanting him to stare at people.  
 

I have also frequently seen speech therapists ask my sons to look at them or cue them by holding objects up to their own face, to try to get them to notice what their mouth was doing for articulation.  This with my older son with no autism diagnosis — the speech therapists still wanted him to look at them.

So just another perspective.

If things have some positives do you really not want to try to work this out and maintain consistency?  Do you think there is a perfect person out there?

How are you going to address a goal of having him work or interact with a variety of people, if you do not put up with some people?  If you want him to work or interact on a more therapeutic level than just “people being nice to him and going along with him” which has so many positives but may not build skills the same way?  
 

Just thoughts if you did want to be more open.

There can be a need to put up with things not being just what you want, if overall there is a benefit there.  

[Terabith]

Both my kids hate the e learning.  In practice, younger one is only doing science and math, because those are the only ones being graded.  But the algebra, especially, have to drag her through.  It sucks, and everything is confusing, with assignments posted in all these different places.  
 

Older child really despises online classes.  Some of the profs at community college are not organized.  At all.  But she’s not really putting in the effort. She’s depressed because she’s lonely and bored.  I really hope she can go to this school next year, that they’ll even have school.  She needs friends and social.  
 

I’m baking way too much cake.  

[Lecka]

It is really a theme you like to do things yourself, but just by its nature if you have goals involving “perform skill with multiple people” then that requires multiple people.  
 

I also had words of wisdom to me one time.... if my son has to have the best therapist and I have no tolerance for someone who is not sometimes making mistakes or just not as good as the best, that is taking chances away from my son to approach the way it will be interacting with regular people who do not possess an A game and aren’t bringing an A game.  

Yes things should be good overall and effective, but part of having someone whose A game is a little lower is giving the child an opportunity to interact when it’s slightly harder because there is more work on the child’s side.

But I had it explained that this can be like a sliding scale helping kids to be where they can tolerate what a regular person will bring to the table, who isn’t bringing in years of skill to be able to have a successful interaction.

And no it’s not a reason to put up with things that are actually poor or actually unfruitful.

But it’s a reason to put up with people who are not as smooth in some ways and who don’t know all the things a parent will know.  

[Lecka]

Also are you sure they are not embedding social skills along with their other goals?  That is a best-practice kind of thing to do.  

[Lecka]

If I am reading correctly — he is engaged and staying in the sessions.

Is this not pretty good for him?

Is this not something beneficial, even if some things you want worked on aren’t being worked on?

Are they establishing a rapport with him?  Are they working in making demands?

I understand “he can’t do x I want him to do” but it can still be worth it to let people build up rapport, build up demands (which may mean easier demands than the thing you want them to work on), look on the bright side and say “hey, he’s engaged, he’s staying in the session.”  
 

I also think there is a high cost to starting over with new people.  They will also have to build rapport and engagement.  Then will not be able to start right in on “the hard skill” if your son is not able to meet them there with the ability to focus and tolerate doing “the hard skill.”  
 

I think that is just life.

 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

I'm just torn, because I feel as though they might like k'nex, but I also don't want to slow down the momentum they have going with the lego, because it's a really beautiful thing, and really the only thing they do together that's not engineered by an adult.   I hear people saying their lego lovers didn't love k'nex so I worry.

Well K'nex are very different. You have a lot of steps, more challenging connectors (needing physical strength, confusing), and the constructions are either incredibly simplistic (representations of figures, where legos would be more nuances/interesting) or COMPLEX (motors, etc.). And K'nex are not something your kids are as likely to ad lib with or just make something from.

I really like K'nex, but I like them for their structure and ability to work together in steps to reach a goal. They help him get to more sophisticated points than he would get to on his own. So I like them for the process that we do TOGETHER with them. But no, they're not really easy *play* probably for many kids. And the kids who build those monster coasters get into MIT and Stanford, lol. 

[PeterPan]

48 minutes ago, Lecka said:

If I am reading correctly — he is engaged and staying in the sessions.

Is this not pretty good for him?

Is this not something beneficial, even if some things you want worked on aren’t being worked on?

Are they establishing a rapport with him?  Are they working in making demands?

I understand “he can’t do x I want him to do” but it can still be worth it to let people build up rapport, build up demands (which may mean easier demands than the thing you want them to work on), look on the bright side and say “hey, he’s engaged, he’s staying in the session.”  
 

I also think there is a high cost to starting over with new people.  They will also have to build rapport and engagement.  Then will not be able to start right in on “the hard skill” if your son is not able to meet them there with the ability to focus and tolerate doing “the hard skill.”  
 

I think that is just life.

 

Yes!!! Those are the good parts and why I was being patient. But I got really, really upset when she said her next move was to demand eye contact (I kid you not, she actually said this) and that she only wanted to work on social. I just had no clue she was trying to go that direction, when she has a degree in EDUCATION. I hired her to do something with EDUCATION, not do something she clearly has no training to do well. We must have talked right past each other or she disrespected me enough that she thought it didn't matter or I was too vague. I think it was a mixture of things. 

Whatever it was, I'm finally seeing it and not happy and clarifying it. Because what she's planning to do matters. She gets on with a plan that fits my big picture plan or she goes. I'm totally cool with time to pair and yes I'm pleased that he's been staying. He did a full hour with her today. But he's not impressed and she's not bringing it. So she can do better or get fired.

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

Also are you sure they are not embedding social skills along with their other goals?  That is a best-practice kind of thing to do.  

Haha, that's what I would have thought. That's why I'm calling it lazy. They literally just go oh conversation. And I thought maybe when she was trying to make lists with him that she viewed it as a writing stage, which it is. That would be fine. But she wrote it, never got him really engaging (only her ideas, not his) and she said that to her it was just to show interest in his areas to build rapport. And I'm like dude, if you know that little about writing instruction, I just can't help you. I cannot do everything for you, because then it's faster to do it myself.

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

I’m baking way too much cake.  

LOLOLOL Let me think about that. 

So on the plus side, I think all this coalesced my pathetic brain to realize what was bugging me. We were stagnant in our big picture goals across therapists. So in a way the main provider was trying to insert that, and I'm saying I don't agree. And I'm the mom and I decide. We made our goal for many months waiting, and the music therapist, the SLP, me, the people doing outings, everyone was on board with the goal of increasing stamina and tools and a cognitive approach to waiting. And if anyone has ever been around him, they know that was a GREAT thing to be working on, lol.

So I wrote one of his therapists to see, but I think maybe we've made enough progress that we could have a new focus across domains. And *I* think the new focus should be *using precise vocabulary*. So in every discipline (music, narrative, articulation, academics, etc.) the person is trying to help him improve his ability to use precise vocabulary. It's a goal in his IEP, and we could get cross discipline focus on it. It could be really cool. 

With the waiting, once we got cross discipline focus, we really made progress. But I literally wrote each therapist and said this is my vision, I want this woven in. So maybe it's time for the new goal. Because when I'm talking about it, it's more past tense as a goal. There's probably farther to go with it, but we went far enough for now. We could cycle back later, but for now a new goal could be pivotal. We might get it to click in his brain that EVERYONE EXPECTS precise vocabulary. It could give us some momentum or a focus shift in his brain. Instead, right now it slides so much that he gets away with very vague speech or worse. We actually have to have it click in his mind that it matters and people care, that it makes a difference and is something he would find beneficial or empowering or I don't know, lol. 

Waiting clicked for him when he realized that it was the difference between yellow zone (calming down) vs. green zone (waiting) and that he could have the appropriate tools and be successful. I don't really know why he'd be motivated to use precise vocabulary when he gets by to the degree he wants to with less. It's maybe something for me to ponder. He would need to see how it benefits him. And it might seem rhetorical to us, but it's not in his world.

[Lecka]

Buy-in runs in both directions.

You need something both sides have buy-in on.

There is kind-of an order and to some extent people are thinking “after waiting comes ______.”  
 

And I don’t know what exactly they will have in mind, but you need to know and what their rationale is for it.  
 

I think they should compromise on an important parent goal you have, but you also need to compromise with their idea of an order to go in and what they think comes after waiting.

And it is important for you to stay on top of the overall goals, and have buy-in!

[Lecka]

Really I think compromise and negotiation is vital.  
 

For you to say “I’m the boss” when they have some different idea of what top priorities are, is not going to work out.

Your goal needs to be looking at the big picture of things working out for your son.  Not getting hung up on specifics.  

It is valuable to maintain consistency, too, that is something intangible yet very valuable.  

 

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by Lecka

[Lecka]

I think too — you have someone who has established a rapport to some extent and sessions are going well, but you don’t like one conversation, so that is it?  
 

I think asking her what she means and seeing what she says would be more appropriate.  

It sucks but problem solving is needed to manage things like this as a parent.  
 

My way or the highway just results in kids having a drive-thru of different therapists.  
 

I see people do this “in real life” and often think a conversation or email would have been a better way to address things than flipping out and not being willing to try to work things out.  

[Lecka]

It is a ton of work just to deal with people, but if dealing with people is needed to help a child meet goals, it is just something to deal with and put up with.  
 

Because not dealing with it and putting up with it has an impact on the child.

I would also rather do everything myself, but I recognize I cannot.  So that means I am stuck with dealing with people and settling for things that are not the way I personally would choose to do them.  
 

That is life.  
 

In the big picture it is worth it because it is better for my son.  

Edited April 15, 2020 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

you have someone who has established a rapport to some extent and sessions are going well, but you don’t like one conversation

No. She was controlling and creating opposition from day one. 

And no, she works for me, not the other way around. I have IEP goals, pages and pages of them and by law (the scholarship regulations) she has to service the IEP goals. So she's cherrypicking one page of the IEP and saying she wants to do that. And that's what every lazy boned person there wants to do. And I don't give a RIP what the ps says about "order." That's why my ds is not enrolled, because they think the low hanging fruit like conversation is more important than the foundations. And they have to do that because they want to see progress on the things that make kids in their system most compliance. I'm actually looking for intervention on the deepest, most foundational issues. I would have taken ANYTHING she wanted to do. Nuts, I might have even accepted conversation had she done it well. But she's not using a systematic program of solid intervention. I own them, programs that are evidence based. She's not teaching him or engaging him cognitively. She's just being controlling and demanding and harping, which increases oppositional behaviors, imagine that. If she actually brought something to the table, ANYTHING interesting at all (a book, an activity, something she prepared) it would be different. But literally she wants to be paid $80 to do NO PREP. 

I had a BCBA I interviewed who thought that was ok too. He wanted to spend an hour locking him in a room asking questions. I'm like seriously, do you people NOT GET AUTISM??? Asking questions is the most stressful, annoying, knife-raising thing you could do to a person. People who get autism don't walk in with that as their plan and then play power cards.  And maybe you can do that with some IQ s of autism. The BCBA said that, the most of his kids had ID and they were just happy to get access to their ipads. He had no clue what to do with a much higher IQ kid who was going to need more work to engage with, who was going to have opinions about how they were being engaged with.

No, I have a provider who offered me hours because her people are all currently underemployed. I am a cash cow and they're grasping at straws. And I can't hire someone and waste time just because I have the funds. They actually need to do some WORK. 

Reality is these people probably have nothing at home to work with. That's what they're not being honest about. They don't have their office of therapy games, a library to go to for books, etc. They CAN'T prep anything. And they haven't thought through digital instruction to figure out how to be engaging in this NEW FORMAT. So even things they would have done, they aren't doing or don't know how to do. 

No, reality is this IS already knows she's struggling to connect. So people like that usually look for outs to quit if it doesn't improve.

So I was fine being patient, was not asking much, was supporting her, until she said she would DEMAND EYE CONTACT. That is a complete no for me, out. Good therapists set up activities that move forward with joint attention and social referencing. It means she doesn't understand the issue and hasn't thought through how to get to those goals through activities. She just wants the most basic, controlling approach, which is her style, which is why he's not opening up to engage with her. So then she goes wow he is really bad. But sorry, gifted kid, bored. I had told her just be interesting, that he's interested in business and other things I listed. She's like oh, I'll tell him about my business selling (insert name of stupid junk)! I'm like seriously, why would my 11 yo ds give a rip about your business selling sniffing oils or something. That's stupid. That means you aren't successful in your job. He doesn't care about your stupid business. He cares about his business or other businesses that are successful. He'd care if you got a book on economics and went through it together or a biography. He doesn't give a rip about you or your stupid business. But she actually thought that was valid.

It doesn't matter if someday he might. It doesn't matter if with work he would care about someone else's business. Reality is she didn't want to do any prep to be ready with anything interesting. She was picking the lowest prep, no work path she could. Lazy. 

She could bring an article on something business/economics, read and discuss it with him, then back door her business and say how it impacted her. THAT he'd engage with. But just to say well then we'll talk about my business, that's LAZY. Boring, disinteresting, no prep, no work on her part. It's part of the entitlement system that says people with x degree should make 4-6X the tax payers paying their salaries without doing any work, without bringing it.

And in the ps, they keep their job even if they're lazy or not using best practices. They work the system bring donuts, keep their job. But on the scholarship, we walk. Because I can guarantee you, I've had plenty of other IS I've interviewed (irl) who came in and wanted to do serious work with ds. I've NEVER had an IS want to work on conversation and do zero academics. And they've all said they would engage with his particular interests and bring in things and get him moving forward. I've NEVER had an IS just want to sit around and talk. It's completely absurd. It's not their field or what they're trained to do. Which is why I'm saying some bizarre miscommunication is happening and that I think it goes back to the provider, the one hiring these people. She was cc on this, because she's saying something that is driving this, and she didn't talk with ME about that. 

Every IS I've interviewed has offered me custom work. Actually, one didn't, but she got fired by her provider.   So I was expecting some kind of customized work, coordinated to his interests, that was working on IEP goals. She never said which IEP goals do you want me to service. She wanted to just pick for herself, which is anarchy and absurdity. I cannot pay 4 people to service one page of the IEP (and ill at that) and no one to service the rest. NO ONE would think that was reasonable. But that's what she wanted. 

Edited April 15, 2020 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

There, I wrote a really nice email to the boss person. Now if they want to blow it up and get all tiffy, they can. Or if she wants to work it out and point out what I said, that there are more pages of the IEP and it can't be that everyone picks their one page with no prep, then we'll see. 

Conversation does not need to be worked on 4-6 hours a week half way by people who don't have a clue. There are actual solid programs that use clear, organized instruction. But remember, that's not what they were offering either. They didn't want to do EXCELLENT instruction in conversation. They just wanted to lick and a promise and show up with no prep and get paid. That's ABSURD.

Remember, crap intervention and great bill at the same price. So if they phone in, they still want to get paid. And if some other therapist works hard, she doesn't get to bill higher to reflect her hard work. That's an injustice of the system and it disincentivizes excellence. The only recourse they have is working say in a hospital or somewhere that bills higher. But this place is already billing pretty high. They need to put up or shut up, bring it. 

[Lecka]

So you like your main provider but don't like one new person?  I would think your main provider would be fine with that.

Do you have a program you want them to use?  Can you ask them to use it?  

[Lecka]

Do you have a specific goal with conversation?  

Like -- greetings?

Like -- tell me what you did over the weekend, tell me what you did for Easter.... 

If you have something like that, you could send out an email or text reminder before sessions (if it was something where the topic changes).

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by Lecka

[Lecka]

I am not sure how many ISs you have had..... I think in an interview they may say one thing and then what actually works out may not be what they envisioned.  

I don't know -- I just think, take it with a grain of salt if you haven't done it much before.  

I am sure some people are good and it's worth finding someone that really is a good fit, but at the same time, no one is going to be perfect or probably meet expectations you might have from the interview.  

You have to see who actually builds a rapport, and who can actually make demands.  If you find somebody who can do that, it is probably worth putting up with a lot.  Someone who can't do those things is probably not worth keeping.

Just my impression -- but there are kids where it is harder to build a rapport and harder to actually make demands, and it is much harder to find a provider who will work out.  

I was having to do my own reward chart at the end of us doing ABA -- it was after school (not the best time of day) and the goals were all very verbal.  

At the same time -- I want my son to be able to be in a verbal setting.  It is so odd to say that is a low-IQ kind of thing to want to do.  

But we did exit with just feeling like it wasn't worth the time, goals were met, I could work on goals myself, etc.  But then normally I would be supplementing school (at home) and outside service providers would be in addition to school for me.

Personally -- I have lived two places, and overall ime schools have more skilled speech therapists and OTs than you can find private.  The schools can be picky and they offer benefits, and summers can still be off.  I think it is weird to assume all the services in schools are garbage.  

Edited April 15, 2020 by Lecka

[Lecka]

More practically though -- is there any conversation goal you would be happy to work on for 5-10 minutes of a session?  Do you own a program you would like to use?  Is there a program you are interested in?  

If there is a conversation goal that you would be happy with, and the main provider would be happy with, that could be a way to compromise.  

Edited April 15, 2020 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

8 minutes ago, Lecka said:

More practically though -- is there any conversation goal you would be happy to work on for 5-10 minutes of a session?  Do you own a program you would like to use?  Is there a program you are interested in?  

If there is a conversation goal that you would be happy with, and the main provider would be happy with, that could be a way to compromise.  

Bingo. I already agreed to have the first SLP working with him branch into conversation, and I took her *two* excellent things for conversation. Odds are she's using neither. I mean seriously, it's wearying. And the music therapist has her own way. I don't really micromanage someone with her level of experience, but she clearly has the experience and clearly makes a difference. She will tell me exactly what she's pushing on and why. This IS tried and I didn't like her plan, real simple.

So yes, I took them programs. He has IEP goals so i don't need to make them. And yes, he's more challenging to work with. But that does not excuse a lack of prep or working outside your specialty or wanting to phone it in. When someone says "Oh I'll tell him about my business!" that screams person who is overstretched, not wanting to prep, phoning it in.

You cannot come in with no plan and then says HE is bad because he's bored with you.

Edited April 15, 2020 by PeterPan

[Lecka]

It sounds like it should be easy to decline this person.  I hope so.  

[Lecka]

I do think if you were on a specific step in a program (or the speech therapist is targeting something specific) that could be worth trying to get carryover on with all the providers.  And then people feel like they are hitting it.  

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

I do think if you were on a specific step in a program (or the speech therapist is targeting something specific) that could be worth trying to get carryover on with all the providers.  And then people feel like they are hitting it.  

Yup, thats what we did with waiting. And I think now we'd get a lot of progress by having everyone working with him quietly targeting using precise vocabulary. It's an extra step, but we'll see if they can get there.

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

It sounds like it should be easy to decline this person.  I hope so.  

We'll see what happens. The boss person replied to my private email to her and gave me more background and said they'd work on it. And she figured out what I was thinking or smoothed it over with what I was thinking could partly be it, that working online glitches their usual ways of doing things. Usually you'd be in an office, see the kid is whatever, and offer a game. Or he'd get in the office and he'd make a request of their materials, making it easy to problem solve. Instead they're at home and they're trying to learn what will convey well and be interactive over distance.

So when I say eye contact has to be worked on more naturally, that takes a lot more forethought to figure out in an online setting. But if she knows that's a goal, the therapist can get there. And that's one thing about working in a practice, they have someone supervising them who can help them get there. So the boss is now saying she can work with them to make things happen. We'll see. It's why I didn't out and out drop the person, because I really thought she had potential and brought something to the table. And people can have opinions on it, but my demands are not all bad. If I'm evidence based and just wanting them to do better, sometimes that's a GOOD push. 

[PeterPan]

35 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I've heard over and over from adults with ASD, that eye contact is uncomfortable, that it feels invasive, and that rather than helping them concentrate, it's overwhelming and interferes with concentration. 

Bingo. I find it highly offensive that someone would want to demand/eye contact, which is why it's a firing offense for me. It reflects a complete lack of respect for WHY the person is not using joint attention at that moment. And it's not like NT adults make eye contact all the time. They'll check out for their own reasons. But it's only in the disability community where this range of options is going to be penalized.

Ironically, my ds has better joint attention than I do at this point. We worked on it really specifically with RDI exercises, and he has this really *natural* expectation of reciprocity, of the shared experience. He'll look over at me for it and I'll realize *I* wasn't looking for it. So I think a cognitive understanding of joint attention and eye contact is not the same as a naturalized, intuited, motivated approach where they discover that sharing the gaze or referencing gets them something. (pleasure, shared experience, a laugh, more info, whatever) You can't replicate that naturalness with a command.

So yes, when he's *not* doing it, that tells me he's very stressed or not engaged. Because when he's engaged and calm, it's going to be there or is easy to warm up and get there, just by stepping up your nonverbals and your pauses to encourage him to reference you. But all that shuts down when he's stressed.

Edited April 15, 2020 by PeterPan