What is your favorite for Pre-algebra? (8th grade)

[Meadowlark]

Background: My son (7th) struggles with math and always has. Poor thing is just like his mama-all  language and no math/science skill or interest whatsoever.

Early on, he did some BJU and CLE. He did CLE in 4th grade which was the last year before going to public school. He hated it. He thought there were way too many problems/pages and he just detested it. The next 2 years in school he did okay but struggled. Not ever to the point of flunking or any kind of learning disability-he's a bright kid who got almost straight A's in school (B in math), but math is just not his favorite.

This year he is back home for 7th and is doing BJU's Fundamentals of Math for 7th. It's going okay. His average is a B- which is fine, but my husband has to reteach most things most nights of the week. 

So, I'm considering what to do for next year. I assumed we'd move to BJU's pre-algebra., I've heard really mixed reviews on it which scares me. The scariest was someone who said the whole program was a disaster and a horrible waste of money. As in, completely unorganized, difficult and pretty much a nightmare.

Here's what I know-

He needs-
spiral or at least decent review of old concepts
someone else teaching besides me
some kind of video, he said he did not like CLE where he had to read/teach himself
-orderly, visual and logical

Can you think of anything that fits the bill?

[MerryAtHope]

Have you looked at Math U See? It has video, is orderly visual and logical, and his decent review of all concepts. It is mastery-based though. It worked really well for us.

[hollyhock2]

I would suggest Math U See or Teaching Textbooks. I have only ever used TT for pre-algebra with my kids, and I've been happy with it. It's spiral, and has video teaching and someone else teaches. 🙂

[Zoo Keeper]

On 1/10/2020 at 11:40 PM, Paradox5 said:

My Son 4 is using BJU PreAlg right now with the online. He previously slugged through most of Fundamentals. The biggest issue we have is not enough review. He understands it when Mr. Harmon teaches it but cannot remember what to do on quizzes and tests. So far, he has redone chapter 1 doing every problem in Sets A and B and retaken each quiz/test 4 times getting the exact scores each time. This is doing them open book! There just is not enough review for concepts to stick long term.

It has helped make it so clear that my son has zero conceptual understanding of any math. BJU doesn’t supply this, either.

I’m considering 3 options:

1- dumping BJU for Saxon Alg 1/2. Many options exist for video instructor dvds.

2- going backwards and using MiF Course 1. (Anyone have a better idea, I’m open to it.)

3- skip it all and go straight to VideoText. But Hive says it is better to have a real pre-Alg first.

Another free option is College of the Redwoods Pre-algebra. This is what Memoria Press uses. To my knowledge, the only video option is through MPOA. 

(We did not like TT here for Math 6. I’m not willing to try any more levels.)

I will say that BJU does have pretty decent conceptual teaching.  It just moves at quick pace.

But I agree with there not being enough review of previous concepts for a struggling learner (at least there wasn't for two of mine who need insane amounts of review before a concept *and* the algorithm stick).  Based on my experience using it, I think that BJU's math is best for an average to above average learner. 

Paradox, R&S has been very, very, good for one of mine who needs lots of review; there is daily review of previous concepts in the TM and in the problem sets in the student book. He is currently working through R&S 8.   I *think* he may go to Saxon Algebra 1/2 next year as a Beginning Algebra type course (he will be a freshman). I am really not a Saxon fan, but I think all that review may be a good option for this kid, for this time. He just needs more time to make those PreA bits be rock solid before we get to a full fledged algebra course.  Since hindsight is 20/20, I wish I had done something like that with my oldest (who is a math hater, and needs gobs of time and review before math can even begin to start sinking in).

Has he had any testing for a LD in math?  I  wish 1000 times over I had pushed for testing with my oldest, but that ship has sailed.  Knowing what part is tripping him up may help with suiting a course to him better.

Edited January 9 by Zoo Keeper

[hollyhock2]

4 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I would avoid TT like the plague for that age if he's already needing some review. It is far too easy to coast through that program for even a slightly crafty and "unmotivated to address things they don't get on their own" sort of kid, by which I mean they can have an A and yet recall/retain nothing. I know it works for some, but TT is the most easily gamed math program out there.  I think it's too much temptation to do so for the average junior high aged kid to just barrel through. 

I'm not disagreeing, because I know this is very possible, but if this is a problem, TT can also be used with just the book so the lessons are read or taught by the parent, and the problems done on paper. That's how I use it with my kids until they hit algebra 1.

[mmasc]

We used Lial’s Pre-A with Jann in TX and it was great, if a live online class is an option you’re considering. My dc clicked with her teaching style and the book is laid out in a way where I could easily look at examples and help him if he needed it. 

[Farrar]

I don't love any of them, honestly. And I say that I having tried a bunch.

In your case, I'd second looking at MUS. I'd consider going back to CLE and using it with videos. Like, you can find a lot of pre-A videos online. Khan's are good and you don't have to use them through KA, you can just watch them.

I'd also look at  Jann in TX's class or possibly Mr. D's. It might be time to hand it off.

[hollyhock2]

19 hours ago, Paradox5 said:

I'm going to disagree with you. (Sorry) The lesson wkbk, IME, is just a sketchy outline of the lessons taught on the screen. It is more of a refresher, NOT enough on its own. I agree and encourage doing the problems on paper.

Well, that's okay. You don't have to agree with me. But I've been using it this way for 4 kids from 3rd grade through Algebra 1 and it's been great. Soooo.... different strokes. 🙂

[Meadowlark]

Okay, I'm intrigued by Math-U-See and Derek Owens. I've watched a bit of the DO videos and I like the very explicit instruction. He seems to explain things very thoroughly and clearly. I'm not sure I understand from the website exactly how the program works tho-so, you print out a workbook and the he watches the video and does problems in the workbook? And there are tests? I wish the website gave a bit more information/samples.

I am lost when it comes to MUS, so I will need to look that up. Since he's going to HS, I really just need a solid, traditional curriculum that will get the job done painlessly.

No, probably no chance for a tutor. My husband won't pay for a tutor because he's an engineer and thinks he can do it. *But* I would do it in a heartbeat because he's an engineer, not a teacher ya know? And, they butt heads. So....still looking :-)

[Meadowlark]

On 1/10/2020 at 10:40 PM, Paradox5 said:

My Son 4 is using BJU PreAlg right now with the online. He previously slugged through most of Fundamentals. The biggest issue we have is not enough review. He understands it when Mr. Harmon teaches it but cannot remember what to do on quizzes and tests. So far, he has redone chapter 1 doing every problem in Sets A and B and retaken each quiz/test 4 times getting the exact scores each time. This is doing them open book! There just is not enough review for concepts to stick long term.

It has helped make it so clear that my son has zero conceptual understanding of any math. BJU doesn’t supply this, either.

I’m considering 3 options:

1- dumping BJU for Saxon Alg 1/2. Many options exist for video instructor dvds.

2- going backwards and using MiF Course 1. (Anyone have a better idea, I’m open to it.)

3- skip it all and go straight to VideoText. But Hive says it is better to have a real pre-Alg first.

Another free option is College of the Redwoods Pre-algebra. This is what Memoria Press uses. To my knowledge, the only video option is through MPOA. 

(We did not like TT here for Math 6. I’m not willing to try any more levels.)

 

Have you considered Derek Owens at all? I've also considered CoTR with Memoria Press. From what I can see, it'd be about the same amount of $ as DO. I think I prefer the recorded class option though as we cherish our flexibility, and they only meet 2x/week. Anyone know if DO is a recorded class every day?

[Gobblygook]

I highly recommend Derek Owens. I used his prealgebra for my oldest, who is now in private high school and doing very well in math. There are lecture notes, which one fills in as they watch the videos, with some practice problems which he works out in the lecture. There are also assignments and tests, which I chose to grade myself for the half-price option. My DS felt that Mr. Owens was an excellent teacher. 

Now, for my current 7th grader, I am hodge-podging things a bit because he hates video instruction and isn’t quite as independent- yet. We did the first book of Principles of Mathematics (by Master Books) but I found it didn’t have enough review for him. We’ve used CLE in the past, so I’m going back to that for the rest of 7th and 8th grade and filling in any gaps with selected lessons of Math Mammoth’s topical series and/or Learn Math Fast. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Gobblygook

[Peaceful Isle]

We are using teaching textbooks prealgebra. It gets the job done without any tears so that's a plus!

 

[EKS]

The best situation would be if you could get someone to work one on one with him.  I realize that this is an expensive option!

Second best might be the Derek Owens prealgbera course.  I know that my son was thrilled to have someone besides Mom grade his work.  

That said, with a kid who struggles, I'd be reluctant to hand him off to a video course.

Edited January 18, 2020 by EKS

[Meadowlark]

7 minutes ago, EKS said:

The best situation would be if you could get someone to work one on one with him.  I realize that this is an expensive option!

Second best might be Derek Owens prealgbera course.  I know that my son was thrilled to have someone besides Mom grade his work.  

That said, with a kid who struggles, I'd be reluctant to hand him off to a video course.

I hear you. The video thing is tough. On one hands, it is a HUGE relief that I am not teaching him 7th grade math. On the other, there's no opportunity for a help cry during or after the lesson. He has to wait until my husband comes home to get the 1:1 help, and even then it's not rainbows and unicorns with everyone else wanting/needing dad's attention and my husband's sometimes lack of patience. I am considering Derek Owens. Can you tell me more about the grading? How does that work? I don't understand how they grade the daily ( I assume?) assignments.

[EKS]

37 minutes ago, Meadowlark said:

I hear you. The video thing is tough. On one hands, it is a HUGE relief that I am not teaching him 7th grade math. On the other, there's no opportunity for a help cry during or after the lesson. He has to wait until my husband comes home to get the 1:1 help, and even then it's not rainbows and unicorns with everyone else wanting/needing dad's attention and my husband's sometimes lack of patience. I am considering Derek Owens. Can you tell me more about the grading? How does that work? I don't understand how they grade the daily ( I assume?) assignments.

There are three types of assignments.  Practice problems have solutions--so you check them yourself.  What DO calls "homework" problems are really open book quizzes that DO or his staff grades.  Then there are tests that are also graded by DO/staff.

The immediate feedback will be using the provided practice problem solutions.  

[melmichigan]

If he's moving back to PS for HS I would not suggest Math U See.  It does not follow a traditional sequence.

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

9 hours ago, melmichigan said:

If he's moving back to PS for HS I would not suggest Math U See.  It does not follow a traditional sequence.

   It was my understanding that MUS had a non-traditional sequence in the lower grades but was traditional in the upper grades. I was homeschooled myself as a kid so admit that I might be misunderstanding this. I have heard that it isn’t as rigorous as other programs but after trying other options, this is what is working for us right now. I’m using MUS with my older girls (7th, 8th, and 10th grades). We started with pre-algebra, then the sequence is Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2, Pre-Calculus, Calculus. Is this not the traditional sequence? 

[melmichigan]

4 hours ago, 2ndGenHomeschooler said:

   It was my understanding that MUS had a non-traditional sequence in the lower grades but was traditional in the upper grades. I was homeschooled myself as a kid so admit that I might be misunderstanding this. I have heard that it isn’t as rigorous as other programs but after trying other options, this is what is working for us right now. I’m using MUS with my older girls (7th, 8th, and 10th grades). We started with pre-algebra, then the sequence is Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2, Pre-Calculus, Calculus. Is this not the traditional sequence? 

I worded that poorly.  It's non-traditional in what is covered under those titles.  Most of the MUS algebra 1 topics are covered in a traditional prealgebra (some earlier), some traditional algebra 1 topics aren't covered until MUS algebra 2 or later.  I have a child in the upper MUS levels myself because it works for her LD's, but the topics don't line up with those in a traditional program, nor does the difficulty.  Yesterday I was teaching my 6th grader (in Dolciani mathematics) and my child in MUS algebra 1 the same topic, and to be honest the 6th grade problems were more difficult.

If you start the program with a child you will cover these topics, provided you stick to MUS, but they will not align with a child that is returning to a traditional program such as those used in a PS, as the OP mentioned.  I do not feel that it is on the same level as any of the traditional programs I've used with my other children and it isn't something I would use with an average math student, and certainly not with my mathy child. YMMV.

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

18 minutes ago, melmichigan said:

I worded that poorly.  It's non-traditional in what is covered under those titles.  Most of the MUS algebra 1 topics are covered in a traditional prealgebra (some earlier), some traditional algebra 1 topics aren't covered until MUS algebra 2 or later.  I have a child in the upper MUS levels myself because it works for her LD's, but the topics don't line up with those in a traditional program, nor does the difficulty.  Yesterday I was teaching my 6th grader (in Dolciani mathematics) and my child in MUS algebra 1 the same topic, and to be honest the 6th grade problems were more difficult.

If you start the program with a child you will cover these topics, provided you stick to MUS, but they will not align with a child that is returning to a traditional program such as those used in a PS, as the OP mentioned.  I do not feel that it is on the same level as any of the traditional programs I've used with my other children and it isn't something I would use with an average math student, and certainly not with my mathy child. YMMV.

Thank you. This helps. I had heard that MUS was “weak” but I didn’t know why. My older two struggle with math and they are finding some success with MUS. So we’ll probably just stick with it. My third DD is good at math but I wanted something easier for her this year. She is dyslexic and I wanted her to have more time for reading/English this year. She’s doing MUS pre-algebra this year as a 7th grader and I’ll probably have her keep going with Algebra 1 next year. I have considered switching her to something else for high school. I’ll keep this information in mind. 

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

8 hours ago, melmichigan said:

I worded that poorly.  It's non-traditional in what is covered under those titles.  Most of the MUS algebra 1 topics are covered in a traditional prealgebra (some earlier), some traditional algebra 1 topics aren't covered until MUS algebra 2 or later.  I have a child in the upper MUS levels myself because it works for her LD's, but the topics don't line up with those in a traditional program, nor does the difficulty.  Yesterday I was teaching my 6th grader (in Dolciani mathematics) and my child in MUS algebra 1 the same topic, and to be honest the 6th grade problems were more difficult.

If you start the program with a child you will cover these topics, provided you stick to MUS, but they will not align with a child that is returning to a traditional program such as those used in a PS, as the OP mentioned.  I do not feel that it is on the same level as any of the traditional programs I've used with my other children and it isn't something I would use with an average math student, and certainly not with my mathy child. YMMV.

    Another question....does MUS in the upper grades eventually cover everything a more traditional program would cover? Maybe just at a different time? I’m glad I found it and that it’s working for my girls right now. It’s not too easy for them, they’re learning new things, feeling successful, math isn’t torture for any of us anymore...but I want them to be well prepared for the future too. I think it’s important for kids to be solid in the math they know, even if they can’t get as far as other kids do, but I also want to make sure I’m doing what I need to do for them and not settling for something too light. 

[Classically Minded]

Saxon Math Algebra 1/2 would be my recommendation!  You can use Saxon Teacher and/or Art Reed's DVD's, my dd16 has used both for years.  She scores the highest possible on standardized testing in math.  She loves math and has been doing Saxon since 1st grade.  She has been independent in math using Saxon since 4th grade using Saxon Teacher.  We incorporated Art Reed's DVD's in a few years ago and she absolutely loves him.

[kbutton]

We're happy with Math Mammoth. I'm using the topical series, but it's the same topics as grade level, just not all integrated together. You might take a look at level 7.