"Ethnicity" on forms .... (a rant)

[Sneezyone]

16 hours ago, SKL said:

I am supportive of their choice to claim it if they want to, but I don't think it should be a required question for anyone, especially if the majority of people's ethnicity isn't represented.

I also think that choice or no choice, it is going to be misleading to include my kids in that demographic.  It's one thing for them to say they are Hispanic, another for policy/funding decisions to be made on that basis.

Mostly I think it's disrespectful and just plain ignorant to treat Hispanics differently from everyone else.

Honestly, I think it’s way too soon to know how authentic or applicable any designation will be regardless of your feelings. It is very, very common for people in transracial adoptive homes or multiracial people raised in predominantly white families to go away as adults, seek, date/marry, embrace, and/or adopt strong ties to other cultural groups as a result. I totally agree that n/a should be an option and encourage you to request it. By the same token tho, it’s a mistake to assume your kids will feel the same as you do as they age. ETA: Even now, they may experience and feel differences when they are out and about, based on what they look like, that they choose to either not discuss or downplay with you. Saying that the Hispanic identity doesn’t accurately represent or reflect them, if that’s how they identify, just seems wrong. It’s not as though there is one right/wrong way to be Hispanic.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Bluegoat]

2 hours ago, wintermom said:

I really hate with the school boards start asking minor children these kinds of questions. The reason is that they do not clearly offer the option of N/A. The school boards do not have the right to ask this kind of personal information. It can be freely given, but it is not required. It's an invasion of privacy.

 

I'm not sure I've ever seen it on a form my kids fill out, only for parents.  I don't know if they offer an NA option, I'd just not tick the box.  THoughI guess with electronic forms that might not work.

[wintermom]

20 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I'm not sure I've ever seen it on a form my kids fill out, only for parents.  I don't know if they offer an NA option, I'd just not tick the box.  THoughI guess with electronic forms that might not work.

Our local school board was conducting a survey where they were asking these questions about ethnicity as well as sexual orientation and much more. Their stated "goal" was to collect information supposedly about how students feel in the atmosphere of their school. No process of going through an REB or anything, obviously, or they wouldn't be allowed to ask this kind of thing without parental signature. They weasel around this by saying parents have to opt out, or their non-reponse is considered consent. Not true in any actual research. Disturbing invasion of privacy and human rights.

[Sneezyone]

31 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Our local school board was conducting a survey where they were asking these questions about ethnicity as well as sexual orientation and much more. Their stated "goal" was to collect information supposedly about how students feel in the atmosphere of their school. No process of going through an REB or anything, obviously, or they wouldn't be allowed to ask this kind of thing without parental signature. They weasel around this by saying parents have to opt out, or their non-reponse is considered consent. Not true in any actual research. Disturbing invasion of privacy and human rights.

As you describe it, it’s not formal research. It’s an informal survey much like a comment card at Denny’s. It’s intended merely to gather information about the needs of students and ascertain whether those needs are being met. Unless there is personally identifiable information being collected on the survey, I don’t see the problem. Would you prefer that schools take no steps to identify under-the-radar bullying or other risky behaviors?

[wintermom]

4 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

As you describe it, it’s not formal research. It’s an informal survey much like a comment card at Denny’s. It’s intended merely to gather information about the needs of students and ascertain whether those needs are being met. Unless there is personally identifiable information being collected on the survey, I don’t see the problem. Would you prefer that schools take no steps to identify under-the-radar bullying or other risky behaviors?

It's not the same as a voluntary survey because the students are requested/forced to complete the surveys during school class with the teacher hovering over them. The high school students themselves weren't allowed to opt out of the survey, only their parents could opt out. 

The methods that the school board staff used to design the survey, and will then use to identify bullying and other behaviors and then actually try and do something about them is questionable. This is evident in the way they presented this entire project. It's nothing like I've ever seen in a university or health setting. It seems like they have no idea what they are doing. It's a pretty straight forward on-line training program to learn about the ethics and proper procedures in social science research and evaluation in our region to ensure voluntary participation, privacy, and ethical procedures when dealing with vulnerable populations, which minor children are considered. 

[Frances]

44 minutes ago, wintermom said:

It's not the same as a voluntary survey because the students are requested/forced to complete the surveys during school class with the teacher hovering over them. The high school students themselves weren't allowed to opt out of the survey, only their parents could opt out. 

The methods that the school board staff used to design the survey, and will then use to identify bullying and other behaviors and then actually try and do something about them is questionable. This is evident in the way they presented this entire project. It's nothing like I've ever seen in a university or health setting. It seems like they have no idea what they are doing. It's a pretty straight forward on-line training program to learn about the ethics and proper procedures in social science research and evaluation in our region to ensure voluntary participation, privacy, and ethical procedures when dealing with vulnerable populations, which minor children are considered. 

I think most people who construct and administer surveys and analyze the data have little idea what they are doing, especially since tools like Survey Monkey are now widely available. I’d actually be more surprised to learn that a school board staff member even thought about looking into the ethics and proper procedures involved with surveys such as the one you describe. People at universities and health care settings who are involved with research are held to high standards and usually have to answer to institutional review boards. While there are likely guidelines school districts are supposed to follow in surveying students, unless complaints are made, many likely just do whatever they want to.

[wintermom]

7 hours ago, Frances said:

I think most people who construct and administer surveys and analyze the data have little idea what they are doing, especially since tools like Survey Monkey are now widely available. I’d actually be more surprised to learn that a school board staff member even thought about looking into the ethics and proper procedures involved with surveys such as the one you describe. People at universities and health care settings who are involved with research are held to high standards and usually have to answer to institutional review boards. While there are likely guidelines school districts are supposed to follow in surveying students, unless complaints are made, many likely just do whatever they want to.

It's pretty sad, don't you think?  In our area, teacher's justify their large salaries because they consider themselves "professionals" and yet they aren't held to the same standards as other professionals are. I know this is rather unique to my province, and it's due to politics and extremely strong unions. I wonder what the justification is in other parts of the world?  Our average teacher salary is around $90,000. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by wintermom

[maize]

3 minutes ago, wintermom said:

It's pretty sad, don't you think?  In our area, teacher's justify their large salaries because they consider themselves "professionals" and yet they aren't held to the same standards as other professionals are. I know this is rather unique to my province, and it's due to politics and extremely strong unions. I wonder what the justification is in other parts of the world? 

You said it is the school board who organized the survey; is your school board made up of teachers? I've been on a school board, I was just a community member not a teacher.

[wintermom]

Just now, maize said:

You said it is the school board who organized the survey; is your school board made up of teachers? I've been on a school board, I was just a community member not a teacher.

Yes, a lot of teachers work at the board. They would have a say in the final product of the survey, for sure, even if a teacher didn't develop it. 

[SKL]

15 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Honestly, I think it’s way too soon to know how authentic or applicable any designation will be regardless of your feelings. It is very, very common for people in transracial adoptive homes or multiracial people raised in predominantly white families to go away as adults, seek, date/marry, embrace, and/or adopt strong ties to other cultural groups as a result. I totally agree that n/a should be an option and encourage you to request it. By the same token tho, it’s a mistake to assume your kids will feel the same as you do as they age. ETA: Even now, they may experience and feel differences when they are out and about, based on what they look like, that they choose to either not discuss or downplay with you. Saying that the Hispanic identity doesn’t accurately represent or reflect them, if that’s how they identify, just seems wrong. It’s not as though there is one right/wrong way to be Hispanic.

The separate race question covers the different appearance issue.

As for my comments about them being Hispanic... I already said they are free to identify as they please and whatever it means to them is beside the point.  Just like nobody cares how important my friends' Ukrainian or Indian culture is to them.

I know what the pollsters intend with the question.  The (unfair) assumption is language barriers, poverty, low educational aspirations in the family, low literacy in the parents, first generation graduate / college student, etc.  Adding more numbers to their stats will have zero meaning for my kids or the community.

[ktgrok]

 

On 11/26/2019 at 8:46 PM, maize said:

Is it common with black communities to differentiate this way? "Black American" for those who have been here for generations, mostly going back to slave immigrants, and African American for first/second generation immigrants? I've only heard African American used to identify all black Americans but I mostly associated it with non-immigrants.

 

The problem with "African American" to mean "Black American" is that many recent immigrants are from places other than Africa. I'm in Florida and we have lots of people who are from Jamaica, etc and no, they are not African American. They are Black, and they are Jamaican American, not African American. Also, there are people that immigrate from say, the UK who are black. So they were born in England, now live in Texas, but we call them African American - that makes no sense. If anything they are English-American more than African American. So Black is more accurate and useful than African. 

On 11/26/2019 at 8:47 PM, SKL said:

 

Maybe you are right about telling the school to add an option to not answer.  Currently they won't let you submit the registration without clicking one of the two boxes.

As for the scholarship - I feel that is unfair.  I know many Hispanic people who are in a better than average situation as far as ability to access higher education.  Why should my kids have access to a scholarship that is denied to kids adopted from a Russian, Indian, or Ethiopian orphanage, or from US foster care?  Why should my well-off, educated Hispanic friends have more access than low-income people of any color?

 

To the first point, every form I've seen has a "choose not to answer" box for that section. I bet it was just an oversight by whomever created the form online. Not a huge deal for them to change I bet, so definitely ask. Our school board just went to having these forms online this year and there was a huge outcry about the homeschool evaluation forms not having the option to skip certain boxes that asked for info not actually required by law. Everyone was sure it was some huge government overstep but it was just crappy form making, lol. The person putting them online was a tech guy, and not up on which questions were optional versus required. The biggest PIA about the whole thing was that one of the boxes was for "student number" but 99% of people homeschooling have NO idea what their student number is. So you couldn't submit it without calling to find out - I am sure that will be fixed because I can't imagine how many calls they had to deal with! I just printed the webpage as a PDF and emailed it, lol. 

So in other words, might be an oversight. 

To the second point, as to why it matters - your kids WILL be treated different and discriminated against by others throughout their life due to their appearance if the look Hispanic. So that's one reason to put them in that category even if they have certain income advantages. Even people of high economic status experience discrimination. 

8 minutes ago, SKL said:

 

I know what the pollsters intend with the question.  The (unfair) assumption is language barriers, poverty, low educational aspirations in the family, low literacy in the parents, first generation graduate / college student, etc.  Adding more numbers to their stats will have zero meaning for my kids or the community.

Well no question is going to perfectly capture everything. The idea is to capture trends, that's the best you can do. 

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

 

 

To the second point, as to why it matters - your kids WILL be treated different and discriminated against by others throughout their life due to their appearance if the look Hispanic. So that's one reason to put them in that category even if they have certain income advantages. Even people of high economic status experience discrimination. 

Well no question is going to perfectly capture everything. The idea is to capture trends, that's the best you can do. 

Again - there is a separate race question that covers my kids' look.  And btw they look much different from all of my culturally Hispanic friends, because of a different mix of European / indigenous.

Of course they can't capture everything, especially the most important things!  And it is very arguable that this kind of categorizing only perpetuates the problems they claim to care about.  But that's a rant for another day.

[Bluegoat]

Quote

The problem with "African American" to mean "Black American" is that many recent immigrants are from places other than Africa. I'm in Florida and we have lots of people who are from Jamaica, etc and no, they are not African American. They are Black, and they are Jamaican American, not African American. Also, there are people that immigrate from say, the UK who are black. So they were born in England, now live in Texas, but we call them African American - that makes no sense. If anything they are English-American more than African American. So Black is more accurate and useful than African. 

 

It also makes for a conflation between people who have been in a place a long time, and new arrivals from Africa.  We have a good sized black population that arrived here in the 1700s, they have their own history and a fair amount of similarity in terms of things like background (many were farmers originally) and religion (mostly Baptists.)

But there are increasingly many newcomers from Ghana, Nigeria, and Sudan, and they have a lot of differences as a population, not only from the local black population but from each other.

[ktgrok]

10 hours ago, SKL said:

Again - there is a separate race question that covers my kids' look.  And btw they look much different from all of my culturally Hispanic friends, because of a different mix of European / indigenous.

Of course they can't capture everything, especially the most important things!  And it is very arguable that this kind of categorizing only perpetuates the problems they claim to care about.  But that's a rant for another day.

But what race denotes say, Mexican-American? All the forms I've seen would put that as White, same as a generic WASP from New England. Hence the additional question about Hispanic or Not. 

[SKL]

20 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

But what race denotes say, Mexican-American? All the forms I've seen would put that as White, same as a generic WASP from New England. Hence the additional question about Hispanic or Not. 

My kids are not white.

Also, why is it only important to know about Hispanic (your example being Mexican American) - vs. any other heritage?  If ethnicity or national origin etc. is important for some, it is important for all.

(It is true that many Mexican-Americans would view themselves as white, as they have a significant % of European biological heritage.  Some of them have looks that make it clear they are bi-racial, others do not.  Same is true of any other biracial individual though.)

ETA: the form I'm discussing gives options to report more than one race.

 

Edited November 29, 2019 by SKL

[Sneezyone]

There's no right or wrong way to look/be Hispanic or black, or anything else. I have first cousins who're blond haired, have pale skin, and hazel eyes. I have cousins who look more Italian than 'black'. We have the darkest browns and the lightest creams. They're all part of this big, black family by lineage, choice and shared heritage. There are a combination of factors.  If one were judging solely by academic opportunities, food and income, I guess my kids wouldn't be black either? My son hates most 'heritage' foods and couldn't speak a lick of AAVA to save his life. My daughter can't stand 'urban' environs. She fears them. It's ridiculous. As adoptive parents, I think it's our job to preserve and respect the options our children have, and will be offered, and not put a finger on the scale with our opinions about their choices.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Sneezyone

[SKL]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

There's no right or wrong way to look/be Hispanic or black, or anything else. I have first cousins who're blond haired, have pale skin, and hazel eyes. I have cousins who look more Italian than 'black'. We have the darkest browns and the lightest creams. They're all part of this big, black family by lineage, choice and shared heritage. As adoptive parents, I think it's our job to preserve and respect the option our children have and will be offered and not put a finger on the scale with our opinions about their choices.

Again this is not about what my kids choose to feel or say about their heritage.

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

Again this is not about what my kids choose to feel or say about their heritage.

 

No. For me it's about your insistence that the options they have or may choose are 'wrong' in some way. I find it hard to believe that sentiment doesn't creep into their consciousness. Like, for real, why is this such a big deal to you? It doesn't affect you personally...or does it? Is it the idea that they might have a different experience with the world than the one you assume they do/think they should have that is so troublesome?

Edited November 29, 2019 by Sneezyone

[SKL]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

 

No. For me it's about your insistence that the options they have or may choose are 'wrong' in some way. I find it hard to believe that sentiment doesn't creep into their consciousness.

I have discussed it with them very openly.  They are free to choose.  FTR I am much more pro-their birth heritage than they are.  I choose a [their birth country] restaurant for dinner, they groan.  I try to encourage practicing the Spanish language, they run the other way.  I take them to the cultural events, buy the books, hire a Hispanic nanny, arrange travel to Latin American countries, lead the scout lessons re national heritage, purchase 23&me, etc etc.  So your impressions about my attitude re Hispanic culture / Latino heritage are wrong.

But the point is, they should not have to identify their ethnicity on a form in order to attend school.

And others should not have their heritage disrespected by being lumped into "not ___."

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, SKL said:

I have discussed it with them very openly.  They are free to choose.  FTR I am much more pro-their birth heritage than they are.  I choose a [their birth country] restaurant for dinner, they groan.  I try to encourage practicing the Spanish language, they run the other way.  I take them to the cultural events, buy the books, hire a Hispanic nanny, arrange travel to Latin American countries, lead the scout lessons re national heritage, purchase 23&me, etc etc.  So your impressions about my attitude re Hispanic culture / Latino heritage are wrong.

But the point is, they should not have to identify their ethnicity on a form in order to attend school.

And others should not have their heritage disrespected by being lumped into "not ___."

 

The thing is, NONE of those things (food, language, dress) makes you X, Y, or Z in isolation. They don't HAVE to do anything to be who they are. It's your perception that they do in order to be 'authentic'. They can be EXACTLY who they are and still be WHO THEY ARE, including their race/ethnicity. You haven't clarified whether the form requirement is real or just a programing oversight either. No one's heritage is disrespected by the failure of a form to categorize it. It's not stripped from you because it's not identified and counted. I feel like this is the difference between those who live lives related to or part of minority groups and those who don't. We recognize the multiplicity of ways to be/engage with ethnicity and culture . My blackness isn't stripped from me because someone chooses not to see it, because I don't like chitterlings, or because I don't speak AAVA on a regular basis.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

Just now, heartlikealion said:

 

Yeah. I don’t know how to say it but that seems to sum it up. 

And if the kids aren’t interested I might withdraw some of that (travel destinations, restaurant options). 

 

With all kids (mine included) there can be a certain amount of...'Mom, you're trying too hard.'

[maize]

20 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

But what race denotes say, Mexican-American? All the forms I've seen would put that as White, same as a generic WASP from New England. Hence the additional question about Hispanic or Not. 

But that is true for every other ethnicity as well.

There is something that feels negatively discriminatory about singling out only Hispanic ethnicity for inclusion in data gathering. There may be some legitimate reasons related to underprivileged populations, but there is a definite dark side to our views of people with Hispanic heritage that makes the constant insistence on labeling that demographic (and only that demographic) separately from others suspect in my mind. It feels like reinforcing the "otherness" of people in what should be an inclusive society--people who are not in fact more "other" than those from any minority ethnic background.

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, maize said:

But that is true for every other ethnicity as well.

There is something that feels negatively discriminatory about singling out only Hispanic ethnicity for inclusion in data gathering. There may be some legitimate reasons related to underprivileged populations, but there is a definite dark side to our views of people with Hispanic heritage that makes the constant insistence on labeling that demographic (and only that demographic) separately from others suspect in my mind. It feels like reinforcing the "otherness" of people in what should be an inclusive society--people who are not in fact more "other" than those from any minority ethnic background.

 

Some groups have been so assimilated into the preferred 'white' category that differentiation is unhelpful in service provision or research. I, personally, don't have any negative connotations associated with Hispanic heritage. I think the question has to be asked, who does and why? Most minority populations (be it color or culture) ALREADY feel separate and othered. The better question is, how can I/we work to make sure that feeling/reaction doesn't exist not how can we erase those self-and society-selected groupings. Ignorance feels like erasure far more than categorization. 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Sneezyone

[maize]

I have a sister who teaches at a Hispanic majority school and her students often ask if she is Hispanic. She says no, but we were discussing the matter recently and I pointed out that as someone who spent a significant portion of her formative years in Latin America and who speaks Spanish fluently she probably is in many ways at least as much Hispanic as many of her students, most of whom have never been outside of the United States. At least she is coming across to them as likely Hispanic.

These things can be complicated.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, maize said:

I have a sister who teaches at a Hispanic majority school and her students often ask if she is Hispanic. She says no, but we were discussing the matter recently and I pointed out that as someone who spent a significant portion of her formative years in Latin America and who speaks Spanish fluently she probably is in many ways at least as much Hispanic as many of her students, most of whom have never been outside of the United States. At least she is coming across to them as likely Hispanic.

These things can be complicated.

 

They can. Immersion for a time can create a sense of solidarity and a feeling of familiarity.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, heartlikealion said:

I told my son he was expected to learn some Spanish but honestly it’s not a hill for me to die on. I know he’s interested in ASL and I’ve encouraged him to pursue it if he’s serious but really he’s not that invested in any subject yet. I don’t take this as a slight. Kids have individual interests and personalities. He’s actually never been surrounded by our vocally Spanish-speaking relatives. I was really only exposed to the language at a family reunion picnic. My maternal grandparents were bilingual but never used it around us. I had a bilingual pen pal that met me with my grandma and that’s about the only time I heard my grandma use Spanish. 

 

It's not like there aren't Hispanic people here and abroad who also learn ASL. 

[maize]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

I, personally, don't have any negative connotations associated with Hispanic heritage. I think the question has to be asked, who does and why? Most minority populations (be it color or culture) ALREADY feel separate and othered. The better question is, how can I/we work to make sure that feeling/reaction doesn't exist not how can we erase those self-and society-selected groupings. Ignorance feels like erasure far more than categorization. 

 

Do you feel there is some special need for Hispanic and only Hispanic ethnicity to be singled out on data collection forms? 

I don't see how not singling out Hispanic ethnicity among all others would erase it as an identity.

Do you recognize that many in this country do associate negative connotations with Hispanic background?

[maize]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

 

They can. Immersion for a time can create a sense of solidarity and a feeling of familiarity.

Especially for a person with a complicated background that defies easy identification.

Inevitable outsiders.

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, maize said:

 

Do you feel there is some special need for Hispanic and only Hispanic ethnicity to be singled out on data collection forms? 

I don't see how not singling out Hispanic ethnicity among all others would erase it as an identity.

Do you recognize that many in this country do associate negative connotations with Hispanic background?

 

I will flip your question because it more accurately reflects my feelings. I don't see how counting any particular group erases it. That's totally counter intuitive unless your working assumption is that the category is, itself, negative so people won't want to claim it. I agree with  the idea that many see it as a negative but I don't think giving into those perspectives is at all helpful. Quite the contrary, if we know that a group is being/has been marginalized and may be suffering ill-effects as a result it is absolutely our obligation to find out who they are, how they're impacted, and what we can do to fix things.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, maize said:

Especially for a person with a complicated background that defies easy identification.

Inevitable outsiders.

 

Perhaps. I don't see feeling like an outsider as inevitable though. My kids could easily feel like outsiders at an HBCU if I allowed them to believe there was only one way to fit in.

[SKL]

29 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

The thing is, NONE of those things (food, language, dress) makes you X, Y, or Z in isolation. They don't HAVE to do anything to be who they are. It's your perception that they do in order to be 'authentic'. They can be EXACTLY who they are and still be WHO THEY ARE, including their race/ethnicity. You haven't clarified whether the form requirement is real or just a programing oversight either. No one's heritage is disrespected by the failure of a form to categorize it. It's not stripped from you because it's not identified and counted. I feel like this is the difference between those who live lives related to or part of minority groups and those who don't. We recognize the multiplicity of ways to be/engage with ethnicity and culture . My blackness isn't stripped from me because someone chooses not to see it, because I don't like chitterlings, or because I don't speak AAVA on a regular basis.

Like.I.Said this is not about my kids' chosen identity.  At all.

I haven't had a chance to talk to the school people about the form design.  It's a holiday week.  I'm not sure whether or not I will bother since I don't need to bring attention to my kids.  I labeled this as a "rant" and a "pet peeve."  Not a major civil rights violation.

I live in a community of international people.  I live with two adults who strongly identify with ethnicities other than "Hispanic" or "Not Hispanic."  I have dated two adults who strongly identify with ethnicities other than "Hispanic" or "Not Hispanic."  Several of my kids' close friends strongly identify with ethnicities other than "Hispanic" or "Not Hispanic."  If you assume ethnicity is more important to Hispanics than other groups, you are wrong.  If the government assumes that (and apparently it does), the government is wrong.

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Good point. However abroad it’s probably not “American Sign Language.” 

 

I think it's kind of like English. Some people learn it for it's ubiquitousness even as they also learn local versions of SL.

[Sneezyone]

10 minutes ago, SKL said:

Like.I.Said this is not about my kids' chosen identity.  At all.

I haven't had a chance to talk to the school people about the form design.  It's a holiday week.  I'm not sure whether or not I will bother since I don't need to bring attention to my kids.  I labeled this as a "rant" and a "pet peeve."  Not a major civil rights violation.

I live in a community of international people.  I live with two adults who strongly identify with ethnicities other than "Hispanic" or "Not Hispanic."  I have dated two adults who strongly identify with ethnicities other than "Hispanic" or "Not Hispanic."  Several of my kids' close friends strongly identify with ethnicities other than "Hispanic" or "Not Hispanic."  If you assume ethnicity is more important to Hispanics than other groups, you are wrong.  If the government assumes that (and apparently it does), the government is wrong.

 

Again...I have no issue with how your kids choose to identify themselves. It is a 'pet peeve' of yours and I'm asking you to consider WHY it is a MAJOR pet peeve for you. It's not as if this hasn't come up several times over the years. It has. People who come to the U.S. from other countries, quite frankly, as members of the majority elsewhere often (typically) have different feelings than those who have been raised here or have lived here for several generations. I would not assume that cohort is representative of native sentiments. I also have not said, nor do I believe, that Hispanic heritage is more important than others. Quite the contrary, I said that census data and surveys have no bearing on how important my heritage is to me because a survey doesn't define culture/race or ethnicity for me. I said that I felt it was important to identify groups that were poorly served so that they could be better served. If your children identify as an underserved/marginalized group, then that data presumably can/will benefit them.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Sneezyone

[SKL]

1 minute ago, heartlikealion said:

that’s fine. It still sounded to me like you were trying to push Hispanic things for the possibly a misguided reason (we should travel here not because the kids will appreciate it bit because we should). I could understand once but not several trips to Latin-America etc if the desire isn’t there. Maybe I misunderstood. 

I happen to like the food and traveling!  And Spanish is a required class in their school - plus I happen to speak it much better than any other language except English.

As for the other things, I feel that I have to at least offer them the opportunity to be exposed to things, since they can't go out and do those things on their own until they are older.   I quit pushing it some time ago.  I don't know that there is a clear right amount of exposure, other than I am sure it isn't zero.  I don't live in a location where there is a very visible Hispanic culture nor do I have family members who are Hispanic.  Therefore I do believe some effort is appropriate.  I will say I do a lot less than many others in the international adoption community.

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

Again...I have no issue with how your kids choose to identify themselves. It is a 'pet peeve' of yours and I'm asking you to consider WHY it is a MAJOR pet peeve for you. It's not as if this hasn't come up several times over the years. It has. People who come to the U.S. from other countries, quite frankly, as members of the majority elsewhere often (typically) have different feelings than those who have been raised here or have lived here for several generations. I would not assume that cohort is representative of native sentiments. I also have not said, nor do I believe, that Hispanic heritage is more important than others. Quite the contrary, I said that census data and surveys have no bearing on how important my heritage is to me because a survey doesn't define culture/race or ethnicity for me. I said that I felt it was important to identify groups that were poorly served so that they could be better served. If your children identify as an underserved/marginalized group, then that data presumably can/will benefit them.

You want to know why arbitrary required questions on forms is a pet peeve of mine?

I thought I explained it, but here it is again.

1) It others people.

2) The categories are arbitrary and not logical.  Depending on individual situations, it can be unclear which category to choose.

2a) Because the categories are illogical, the data collected is misleading.

3) People should not be required to provide this information in order to attend school.

 

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, SKL said:

You want to know why arbitrary required questions on forms is a pet peeve of mine?

I thought I explained it, but here it is again.

1) It others people.

2) The categories are arbitrary and not logical.  Depending on individual situations, it can be unclear which category to choose.

2a) Because the categories are illogical, the data collected is misleading.

3) People should not be required to provide this information in order to attend school.

 

 

I want to know why (arbitrary/required hasn't been established) the question offends you...yes. If the question feels neither arbitrary or difficult for respondent (the kids) why are you upset? How is the data misleading if it is self-selected? You keep repeating the same things about the requirement (which we don't yet know) but have provided no explanation for why the data collected would be inaccurate if it included your children (except that your kids don't like Spanish or eat Hispanic/Latin foods). Neither of those things is a pre-requisite for self-identification. DO your kids feel othered by the question or by life or by neither? Personally, I don't feel othered. I feel seen.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Sneezyone

[SKL]

10 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

I want to know why (arbitrary/required hasn't been established) the question offends you...yes. If the question feels neither arbitrary or difficult respondent (the kids) why are you upset? How is the data misleading if it is self-selected?

I already answered all of that.  I am not offended or upset.  The main thing ticking me off right now is you assuming that I don't want my kids to feel like they are Hispanic (or express the same), because I never said that or implied it.

I think there is a disconnect as I view this as a question of logic (not emotions), and a bigger picture thing.  I used my kids as an example because they are an example of people not being clearly A or B.  Some other respondents have related to that for similar or different reasons.  But the big picture is that ethnicity either is or isn't important on a school form. 

Would people understand better if the options were "Chinese or not Chinese"?

What if the race question was asked simply as "Black or not Black"?

Edited November 29, 2019 by SKL

[Sneezyone]

11 minutes ago, SKL said:

I already answered all of that.  I am not offended or upset.  The main thing ticking me off right now is you assuming that I don't want my kids to feel like they are Hispanic (or express the same), because I never said that or implied it.

I think there is a disconnect as I view this as a question of logic (not emotions), and a bigger picture thing.  I used my kids as an example because they are an example of people not being clearly A or B.  Some other respondents have related to that for similar or different reasons.  But the big picture is that ethnicity either is or isn't important on a school form. 

Would people understand better if the options were "Greek or not Greek"?

What if the race question was asked simply as "Black or not Black"?

 

I am not assuming anything. I am asking questions. You are assuming that they are not A or B or that they HAVE TO be A or B in order to respond. I am asking to you to consider whether what you think matters at all when it is ultimately their choice and largely impacts them/their self-identified group(s), not yours. I understand the dynamics at play because I am raising my own un-stereotypically black kids. They are no more/less black because of a form but it may help direct resources to their 'group' if discrepancies or discrimination were found (that they may not even be aware of). If the question was asked, black or not-black, neither would have any problem answering for themselves. Their choices would be their own.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Sneezyone

[maize]

31 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

Perhaps. I don't see feeling like an outsider as inevitable though. My kids could easily feel like outsiders at an HBCU if I allowed them to believe there was only one way to fit in.

I've never met a TCK who didn't feel like an outsider pretty much everywhere. Not saying one couldn't exist, but really it is the nature of such a life. Identity gets mixed up at its root because you don't and can't belong where you are and yet the culture you are supposed to belong to is foreign and unfamiliar.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, maize said:

I've never met a TCK who didn't feel like an outsider pretty much everywhere. Not saying one couldn't exist, but really it is the nature of such a life. Identity gets mixed up at its root because you don't and can't belong where you are and yet the culture you are supposed to belong to is foreign and unfamiliar.

 

There's some of that to be sure. But we also work very hard to emphasize that there is no wrong way to be who they are and their identity cannot be taken from them because of where we've lived or what experiences they've had. They're not 'supposed to' be anything. We have a saying. The only thing they have to do is stay black/brown and die.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Frances]

On 11/28/2019 at 4:27 AM, wintermom said:

It's pretty sad, don't you think?  In our area, teacher's justify their large salaries because they consider themselves "professionals" and yet they aren't held to the same standards as other professionals are. I know this is rather unique to my province, and it's due to politics and extremely strong unions. I wonder what the justification is in other parts of the world?  Our average teacher salary is around $90,000. 

At least here, I don’t think teachers would ever be the ones running or planning something like this. It would be the administration, perhaps at the direction of the school board or department of education, or of their own accord. The teachers would simply be the ones administering it in their classrooms. And since it seems that public schools regularly do the exact opposite of what research shows is best practices, I wouldn’t expect them to do any differently when designing and administering a survey and interpreting the results.

[SKL]

4 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

I think we just differ on what level is enough effort. Sounds like you are in an affluent circle if they are doing more and you’ve already traveled a couple times? 

It does sound harder in your area but I wouldn’t feel obligated to do so much travel at their ages. /shrug 

I don't feel "obligated" to travel.  Only one trip was specifically for them - the trip to their birth country when they were 6.  (Though I do want to go back during Holy Week so we can experience how they do that.)  We have been to dozens of countries in Latin America, Europe, Asia, Oceania, and Africa.  Like I said, I like traveling.

I was responding to another poster's implication that I am uncomfortable with or try to prevent my kids' identifying with Hispanic culture.  I would not be exposing them in various ways if I was afraid of them identifying with Hispanic culture.  The travel was just one of various examples.  Also I expose my kids to other ethnicities as well - again, this is something I like to do and appropriate given the people we hang with.  But in the case of Hispanic culture, obviously they can choose to identify as a member of it - unlike Indian or Korean culture, which they may actually enjoy more.

(An aside - I have a friend who was adopted from Korea.  She states that she is Irish.  Her family is Irish and that's how she feels.  Her choice.  People give her a hard time about that though.)

[maize]

14 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

There's some of that to be sure. But we also work very hard to emphasize that there is no wrong way to be who they are and their identity cannot be taken from them because of where we've lived or what experiences they've had.

What elements make up identity?

That's a broad question, not one I know how to answer so feel free to leave it alone if you want. 

I'll answer a question I think you asked awhile back, about why Hispanic ethnicity has negative connotations for many: I think it is because people feel threatened. The Hispanic population in the US is growing rapidly, both because of immigration and because of relatively higher birthrates. Greek or Italian or Serbian or Jordanian immigrants and their descendants are just much smaller groups by number.

If I were trying to collect data that might help direct funding etc. I think the data schools already collect about whether or not English is the primary home language and the approximate household income would be more useful than "Hispanic or not Hispanic".

There are other things that bother me about the Hispanic/not Hispanic lumping. It isn't as if Mexican cultural heritage and Ecuadorian cultural heritage and Brazilian cultural heritage have a heck of a lot in common. It's just weird splitting everyone in the United States up into Hispanic and Non-Hispanic groups. Both the lumping and the dividing are...odd. I see nothing positive in the practice.

Edited November 29, 2019 by maize

[SKL]

16 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

There's some of that to be sure. But we also work very hard to emphasize that there is no wrong way to be who they are and their identity cannot be taken from them because of where we've lived or what experiences they've had. They're not 'supposed to' be anything. We have a saying. The only thing they have to do is stay black/brown and die.

Are your kids of 100% African descent?  If not, why are they not allowed to identify with any of their other biological roots?

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, maize said:

What elements make up identity?

That's a broad question, not one I know how to answer so feel free to leave it alone if you want. 

I'll answer a question I think you asked awhile back, about why Hispanic ethnicity has negative connotations for many: I think it is because people feel threatened. The Hispanic population in the US is growing rapidly, both because of immigration and because of relatively higher birthrates. Greek or Italian or Serbian or Jordanian immigrants and their descendants are just much smaller groups by number.

If I were trying to collect data that might help direct funding etc. I think the data schools already collect about whether or not English is the primary home language and the approximate household income would be more useful than "Hispanic or not Hispanic".

There are other things that bother me about the Hispanic/not Hispanic lumping. It isn't as if Mexican cultural heritage and Ecuadorian cultural heritage and Brazilian cultural heritage have a heck of a lot in common. It's just weird splitting everyone in the United States up into Hispanic and Non-Hispanic groups. Both the lumping and the dividing are...odd. I see nothing positive in the practice.

 

There are WAY too many Hispanic/Latin households where Spanish is not spoken. Language is not a proxy for ethnicity. It is true, there are many Latin and Hispanic countries. I do not see most Americans differentiating between them in policy or practice tho. It makes sense to individuals but not necessarily from a data perspective.

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, SKL said:

Are your kids of 100% African descent?  If not, why are they not allowed to identify with any of their other biological roots?

 

My kids are 100% American going back to the civil war. If they want to say they're of African descent, I'm fine with that. It's accurate. If they want to say African-American, I'd be OK with that too but it's not my preferred term because it isn't accurate. We're black people descended from slaves, Natives and white folks. Our culture is rich with foods, expressions/language, behaviors, perspectives, clothing, celebrations, and experiences with the outside world. Some people have no affinity for one or more of these things, some people do, even within my own family. 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Sneezyone

[maize]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

There are WAY too many Hispanic/Latin households where Spanish is not spoken. Language is not a proxy for ethnicity. It is true, there are many Latin and Hispanic countries. I do not see most Americans differentiating between them in policy or practice tho. It makes sense to individuals but not necessarily from a data perspective.

But why do schools need to know if a family has Hispanic heritage if not to identify potential needs such as ESL?

This isn't about how an individual identifies, it is "why does the school need that information"?

That aren't trying to identify every minority ethnicity/culture... why this one?

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, maize said:

But why do schools need to know if a family has Hispanic heritage if not to identify potential needs such as ESL?

This isn't about how an individual identifies, it is "why does the school need that information"?

That aren't trying to identify every minority ethnicity/culture... why this one?

 

Because there are real, documented disparities in discipline application, parent outreach/involvement, G&T identification, etc. based on these characteristics, regardless of household income or primary language. All groups are not negatively impacted by differences in the same way. I feel like a lot of the opposition to these questions comes from t he perspective of 'WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?!" when it can and does make a BIG difference how you present to the world and how it treats you as a result.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Sneezyone

[maize]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

Because there are real, documented disparities in discipline application, parent outreach/involvement, G&T identification, etc. based on these characteristics, regardless of household income or primary language.

And that is not true for other ethnic minorities?

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, maize said:

And that is not true for other ethnic minorities?

 

The two biggest impacted groups are black and Hispanic, hands down. There is an increasing push to disaggregate pacific island populations from the Asian category because they, too, are disproportionately impacted. ETA: Natives are impacted too but that is a much smaller population.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Sneezyone