Orthographic processing help

[Kanin]

I've got an 8 year old student with reading troubles, about to be evaluated for special ed. I've been working with him for a few months. He has GREAT phonemic awareness. He can do all of Kilpatrick's PA exercises up to his grade level with automaticity. However, he struggles to read CVC words, and has almost no "sight words." Even 'the,' 'if,' 'and' are not automatic. His consonant sounds are automatic, but his vowels are not. I'm sure that he has gotten his vowel sounds wrong half the time, and right half the time, so he has no clue which the right one is. Even if he gets the vowel sound correct, though, it's usually a struggle to blend a CVC word.

SO. If phonemic awareness is not the problem, I'm theorizing that it's some kind of orthographic mapping issue. The psychologist writes "orthographic processing delays" on many evaluations, and I'd bet money she's going to write it on this one, but I'm at a loss as to what to do about it when phonemic awareness is good. She does not provide suggestions for interventions for orthographic processing delays. Is the intervention just practice and repetition till mastery, with a limited set of sounds, using letter tiles...or...? I could do LiPS with him, but his PA is already age appropriate. 

We have been working on common word parts (op, ip, ot, og, etc), and he has gotten faster sounding out words this way. Rather than saying h-o-t, he can say h-ot, if it's a word part that he has specifically practiced.

Without evals it's guess work to some extent, and there may be more to the situation, but I could really use some pointers for now!

[Lecka]

Seeing Stars from Lindamood Bell gets mentioned for this?  No firsthand knowledge but it's something I have seen mentioned.  

[Lecka]

https://childrenofthecode.org/interviews/wolf.htm

I have seen Rave-O by Dr. Maryanne Wolf mentioned also.  

[Lecka]

Can you do LIPS for just vowel sounds?  His vowel sounds do sound like an issue.  

When you say he has trouble blending -- does he have trouble blending?  Or is like -- he says the vowel slightly off and then he can't connect what he has blended, to an actual English word?

Just brainstorming, but could you cut out some of his vowels and only work with maybe two vowels for now?  Would that help?  

54 minutes ago, Mainer said:

just practice and repetition till mastery, with a limited set of sounds

 I suspect this is going to be it, but if he's 50% on vowel sounds, I do think -- try just doing one or two vowel sounds, and then only add a new vowel sound when the other ones are solid.  

Is he guessing between different vowels, or does he just say the sounds in an "off" way?  Like -- "e" sounds in-between and "e" and an "i," and then when he sounds out a word it doesn't sound like a word?  One of my kids did that and it made it very hard!  He doesn't anymore, but it took a long time!  

Good luck 🙂 

[PeterPan]

I'm not turning on my brain well here, but you might like to google what Kilpatrick says about it, since you like him https://ortongillinghamonlinetutor.com/the-big-five-phonics-orthographic-mapping/

I'm not sure teaching word families is helping him, since we don't read words from the end. You might want to go back to straight decoding but decoding your target list of words over and over to build fluency. You might also beg someone on the staff to run some visual memory testing and make sure there's not anything else impacting it.

[PeterPan]

Sounds like you need to warm up vowels each session as you move forward. But drill to fluency, yes. 

How was his RAN/RAS? My personal theory is that poor RAN/RAS makes it harder to attain fluency.

[Lecka]

To be honest, it doesn't sound like he has great phonemic awareness.  If he had great phonemic awareness, I think he would be able to get his vowel sounds quickly/accurately and be able to blend CVC words.  Can he repeat vowel sounds but not come up with them on his own when he sees the letter?  I guess that would explain it, but still.  

I think as far as sight words -- keep in mind, if he is learning "the" and he is learning "soft e" sounds for CVC words ----- that is conflicting and can really confuse some kids.  And then I think -- just do the soft vowel sound until it is solid, don't mix in different sounds.  

I don't know if any of this is helpful -- just my thoughts 🙂 I hope you find something that will work for him 🙂 

[Lecka]

11 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I'm not sure teaching word families is helping him, since we don't read words from the end.

 I agree with this in general, but if it is taking tons and tons of drilling to remember anything, I think it can help.  

I think at the point you are drilling on that level, would it make more sense to drill CVC words ending in -ot, and then add a second set of CVC words ending in -- another word family ending, then mix those two together for practice telling them apart....

I don't know.  It is so frustrating.  

I think -- if you are going to drill, definitely do drill on telling apart similar-looking words.  Like -- if you are going to drill hot, at some point drill hop and hat..... 

But yeah it is not ideal!  

What I have seen with one of my kids who drills sight words at school, is that he has certain words where he always says any one of 5 words as -- the sight word he drilled.  Now -- I am not really complaining, because, he learned a lot of words without this problem.  But for the words where it happens, it is so frustrating, as he will say certain words every time but it's just a word with a few letters in common.  And I think drilling with similar-looking words where they have to distinguish between similar words, is what is supposed to help with that.  Where if you are only going to have one word starting with "whe" and then the child always says "when" and always says "when" for the word "where" ------- I just think it would have been nice, as he has these words where he still always does this, though it is getting better for sure and overall it has totally helped him to drill on words.  

And yes he does also learn phonemic awareness and phonics!  It just took him a long, long, long time to get the hang of some things and he needed a lot of super-explicit practice, more than a lot of kids need or is really recommended.  (Because over-cueing I think it's called is a known problem to happen -- when you over-cue on words starting with certain letters to always be a certain word and don't notice it's a different word.)

Edited November 7, 2019 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

Those particular chunks aren't consistent and get contradicted too soon. Barton teaches chunks that are more consistent (ink, ank, unk, etc.). So there are ways, but those particular ones are going to go long and have other things happen so it's not going to work consistently and doesn't allow them to continue testing to find out what's really wrong.

And you notice in the article they drop the bomb I've said, that reading needs LANGUAGE and some of what looks like reading problems is the overall language issue. And my ds could pass a multiple choice, we provide models CELF but fail more detailed tests. For him, the language was holding back understanding at the bits level. He was learning language whole to bits and kids usually learn bits to whole. So op is saying dc isn't nailing the bits, and it's a valid question where the language is. With ds, I can work on language and bump reading.

[Kanin]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

To be honest, it doesn't sound like he has great phonemic awareness.  If he had great phonemic awareness, I think he would be able to get his vowel sounds quickly/accurately and be able to blend CVC words.  Can he repeat vowel sounds but not come up with them on his own when he sees the letter?  I guess that would explain it, but still. 

Good question - he makes the sounds accurately, but does not have a strong connection between which sound goes with which letter. For example, he'll say "fet, fat, fit," trying all the sounds. 

[ElizabethB]

I would overreach the syllabary and my vowel chart while working on a program that does a few sounds at a time.  So, you'll drill the vowel sounds and a few short and long syllables each time while slowly working through a few with blending.  I would also focus on spelling with the syllabary and when you're working on the vowel sounds.  Word Mastery is good for working on a few sounds at a time:

http://donpotter.net/pdf/word_mastery_typed.pdf

I have a long vowel first document that you could also do at the same time, long vowel sounds are easier because the name is the same as the sound.  Here are the first 2 pages, I could email you the PDF if it works and you want the rest.  It's still draft but I've used it as it with a few older students successfully.  Drill my long vowel chart as well.  

1. long e.
me lee eel
mee le re ree rea
2. long a
a ail aim nay ray lay may la ma ra na ain
mix:
nee een eem ean eam
tee tea say see sea eat
ta te sa se eet ait tay

Fluency Tracking Group 1:
ray see aim nay eat me tea lay ail sea

Fluency Tracking Group 2:
tay nee ain ra ean mee tee se ait te

DRAFT

© 2018 by 40L, www.40L.org 1

Next:
be bee bay

ba bea aib See a bee. See a sea.
Re a nea hee. Ne, ain nea.

3. Long 0.

go lo no so

oat roe

row bow sow

ro ree rea ope noe soe

Go see a pea.

Pay a pea.

Tay a noe aib.

Nee a ro oap.

go see no be sea bay so oat low me aim sow ray aid day doe

 

 

[Lecka]

I think if he seems like he can pick things up a little faster -- go with Elizabeth B's.  

If he seems like he makes a ton of mistakes still, I would go all the way back to only short vowel sounds, quit sight words unless they happen to be CVC or VC, and only work on 1 or 2 vowels until they are solid, and then add one at a time.  

You could also look for pre-school type activities.  

Something that can happen is -- kids weren't ready for things when they were younger, and then they have gaps, and need to go back to the kind of thing usually done with younger kids, but that can be really good also at an older age.  

If he would not mind.  Sometimes too kids are getting stressed out with knowing they are making mistakes, that ramps up their desperate guessing, that leads to lots of guessing and not learning well ------- if going back to something easier is something that appeals to them, it can help to break that anxiety cycle.  

If he is more the type to be able to meet a challenge and have that make him feel competent ----- then I think go with Elizabeth B's.  

You really can't move forward much without solid short vowel sounds.  

But on the other hand -- with solid short vowel sounds, he might make a lot of progress.  

 

[Lecka]

I would copy things onto flashcards too, to be able to adjust easily to repeating just a few things without it being obvious, or being able to stop sooner if you see fatigue.  That is -- if he can blend.  

With letter tiles you can do -- making CVC words and just trading out the vowels, see if he can get the hang of it with just two vowels.  

Just ideas to try.

You could also try dictating sounds for him with tiles, where he chooses the right vowel.  You can do that too with a choice of just two vowels, and you can build the rest of the word for him to just focus on the vowels, if he needs to concentrate more that way.   

[Lecka]

Really if his soft vowels are the earliest skill you can see -- focus on that and see how it goes.  Hopefully if you go back to where it is easier and do a lot of discrimination practice between short vowels that will help.  

Then when you introduce long vowels you can do extra discrimination practice between the long and short vowels with each other. 

It's a good method a lot of the time, when a couple of things are being confused.  

Okay -- it is true, if you introduce things with discrimination practice from the beginning, it can reduce the time spent on learning things and then having to do discrimination.  But if that is too overwhelming then -- it is just something where you know you will have to do extra discrimination practice.  I think lol.  

[Kanin]

5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I'm not turning on my brain well here, but you might like to google what Kilpatrick says about it, since you like him https://ortongillinghamonlinetutor.com/the-big-five-phonics-orthographic-mapping/

I'm not sure teaching word families is helping him, since we don't read words from the end. You might want to go back to straight decoding but decoding your target list of words over and over to build fluency. You might also beg someone on the staff to run some visual memory testing and make sure there's not anything else impacting it.

This is exactly what I read this morning 🙂 I see many interventions offered for phonemic awareness, but I guess what I was not getting is that a good OG program is what targets orthographic mapping. I guess that should have been obvious 🙂 

[Kanin]

5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

How was his RAN/RAS? My personal theory is that poor RAN/RAS makes it harder to attain fluency.

Good question, we'll know in a couple weeks after his testing! Can't wait!

[Kanin]

5 hours ago, Lecka said:

5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I'm not sure teaching word families is helping him, since we don't read words from the end.

 I agree with this in general, but if it is taking tons and tons of drilling to remember anything, I think it can help.  

We don't read words from the end, but it's helping him map the sound of "op" with the letters o and p, so he can see "op" and just say op rather than o-p. So in the word mop, he can sound it out as m-op rather than m-o-p. We still talk about all the sounds, but just practice reading common word parts over and over in addition.

[Kanin]

5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

And you notice in the article they drop the bomb I've said, that reading needs LANGUAGE and some of what looks like reading problems is the overall language issue. And my ds could pass a multiple choice, we provide models CELF but fail more detailed tests. For him, the language was holding back understanding at the bits level. He was learning language whole to bits and kids usually learn bits to whole. So op is saying dc isn't nailing the bits, and it's a valid question where the language is. With ds, I can work on language and bump reading.

And that's a whole different kettle of fish for me to think about!

[Kanin]

2 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

I would overreach the syllabary and my vowel chart while working on a program that does a few sounds at a time.

Yes, good idea. We're focusing on short o and short i right now, since they are so different. 

He also does better reading and spelling with me than with his classroom teacher. Distraction is also playing a role. 

[Kanin]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

Something that can happen is -- kids weren't ready for things when they were younger, and then they have gaps, and need to go back to the kind of thing usually done with younger kids, but that can be really good also at an older age.  

If he would not mind.  Sometimes too kids are getting stressed out with knowing they are making mistakes, that ramps up their desperate guessing, that leads to lots of guessing and not learning well ------- if going back to something easier is something that appeals to them, it can help to break that anxiety cycle.  

If he is more the type to be able to meet a challenge and have that make him feel competent ----- then I think go with Elizabeth B's.  

You really can't move forward much without solid short vowel sounds.  

No, he wouldn't mind. And I totally agree with you about going as far back as necessary. I think a lot of teachers (myself included) can just feel that it's SO far to go back that it's just... too far. But if you don't go there, you can't move forward, and all of the "harder" stuff is just wasting their time. 

 

[Kanin]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

You could also try dictating sounds for him with tiles, where he chooses the right vowel.  You can do that too with a choice of just two vowels, and you can build the rest of the word for him to just focus on the vowels, if he needs to concentrate more that way.  

He had fun today running around the room between the two vowel cards I had on the wall. I say "spit," he runs to "i"! 🙂

 

[ElizabethB]

You could also try simple syllable division with him, if he is good with consonants, and you could slowly work up to all the vowels.  Most of my older students can do multi-syllable words as easily as 1 syllable words once they learn how to divide them, start with ones with vowels you're working with.

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/Resources/syllable division exercises1.pdf

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/Resources/Syllable Division Exercises Nonsense Words.pdf

 

Edited November 8, 2019 by ElizabethB

[ElizabethB]

I would definitely drill the vowel chart portion of my letter chart and also the vowel team chart, here is a video explaining how I teach them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5tU0HviZAE

Letter chart, just drill vowels, across and down daily, have him color them in with colored pencil while you explain it.  When he's working with you, or at home with someone, he can use the chart to look up the sound--my students learn the sounds faster when they look them up themselves.

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/Resources/40LChartsCombined.pdf

And, the vowel team chart, best to start drilling them now, too.

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/Resources/OnePageVowelChart.pdf

I don't drill AE (rare), IE (it depends on word length, long I in short words as in pie, long E in longer words like yield), or UY, just a few words and most students know it already.  He may be a case that needs to drill UY, however.

[ktgrok]

Wondering if it is a working memory problem, not a dyslexia problem? Like, he can do the phonological part, but can't remember which sound goes with which letter? Because it sounds like he has no issues when you work totally orally, only when there is print involved? True dyslexia I'd assume would also present when working strictly orally. So I'd think either working/visual memory or even a vision problem. I'm NOT one to jump on vision issues, but in this case if he's good at the oral work but not print work I'd check vision for sure. 

[ElizabethB]

I've actually had several students around that age who knew their consonant sounds but not most of the vowels...for most of them it was just ABT (Ain't Been Taught), consonants are more constant and are repeated more in words, if you aren't explicitly taught the sounds and you take a lot of repetitions to get them, you can have the trouble mentioned without an underlying issue, although there is certainly the possibility of an underlying issue as well.  Also, the short vowels are all fairly similar, that is why I'm developing my long vowel first program, also they are easier to learn since the name is the same as their sound.  The old Open Court is also long vowel first:

http://wigowsky.com/school/opencourt/opencourt.htm

You start with the blue book:

http://wigowsky.com/school/opencourt/bluebook/blue.htm

 

[Lecka]

Some kids do also take a long time with letter sounds because they have to recall the correct sound.  It can still be a sound type of issue.  
 

If it’s oral a lot of the time you have just given them a model to copy, they aren’t having to produce the sound from memory in the same way as when looking at a letter. 
 

But it is good to check on vision too, for sure. 
 

Edit: or if they are given a picture of an item with working on phonemic awareness, they can name the item — they aren’t having to call up the sound — just the name of the word — which is different.  

Edited November 8, 2019 by Lecka

[ktgrok]

If you orally say /c/ - /a/ - /t/ with separations between the words he can put them together without a problem, but when he sees the letters he cannot, is that right?

[ktgrok]

Oh, and if the typical stuff isn't working for him - the O-G stuff - try something Phonographix based like Abecedarian. It is one of the only other research backed reading strategies, and my daughter had huge success with it. It isn't super expensive either, and if he doesn't need handwriting practice too you can get the Short Version of level A, which is geared to older students. 

[Lecka]

But you have just given him the vowel sound doing that.  It is the same as if you gave him the letter sound looking at the letters.  It’s not the same kind of recall from memory.

But yes — he can do that, right?

And I do agree it could be vision-related.  

[Lecka]

Really it could be both, too.  My older son had both and did OT for some vision issues.  

Edit:  but the thing is — okay, so he does recognize the other letters?  And he does blend from left to right?  At this level it sounds like his vision is good enough for those, it should be good enough for the vowels too.  But if there is a problem that would be showing up later, it could be causing fatigue now.  

Edited November 8, 2019 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Mainer said:

We don't read words from the end, but it's helping him map the sound of "op" with the letters o and p, so he can see "op" and just say op rather than o-p. So in the word mop, he can sound it out as m-op rather than m-o-p. We still talk about all the sounds, but just practice reading common word parts over and over in addition.

But the point is it's word families and encouraging him to look at the end. It's NOT a valid decoding chunk or longterm plan. 

How is his articulation? Are you saying he actually struggles to *say* the sounds? 

3 hours ago, Mainer said:

He had fun today running around the room between the two vowel cards I had on the wall. I say "spit," he runs to "i"! 🙂

 

This is fabulous. It's not shocking that they're a weak point, but it's definitely wise to keep working on them. 

[ktgrok]

58 minutes ago, Lecka said:

But you have just given him the vowel sound doing that.  It is the same as if you gave him the letter sound looking at the letters.  It’s not the same kind of recall from memory.

But yes — he can do that, right?

And I do agree it could be vision-related.  

Right - I think I said it would either be vision or  memory at that point, not sound processing itself, if he can do it orally but not in print. At least, I was trying to say that, lol. Like, my dyslexic knew the sounds of the letters by 2 yrs old. But she couldn't blend until we did massive remediation in 2nd grade. Issues were with the sound processing part of the brain. 

Meanwhile my kid with working memory issues but no dyslexia couldn't remember the letter sounds until he was at least 1st grade or so, at least 7 years old, but once he could he was able to read very quickly. Once the letter sounds finally made it to long term memory past that working memory barrier, he was golden. 

They needed very different strategies. 

 

[geodob]

Mainer, from what you've outlined, he may not have developed his orthographic processing skills?
Which basically involve:
The ability to capture and retain a visual image in visual working memory.
Then to transfer it to short term memory.
Where it can then be moved into long term memory.
Then their are a set of skills with retrieval and manipulation of visual images.

Though visual working memory, involves developing a range of acquired skills.  Which children are left to develop themselves, but are given direct help in the development of.
So that how well they develop them, is just random.  They are generally unaware of how they can actually use and further develop their visual working memory.
At least, children are made aware of visual working memory.  With the commonly used statement:  'Picture this in your mind'.
But often children simply don't happen to develop their visual working memory skills. As they weren't directly taught them.
Yet their is no actual obstacle preventing them.
So that it is quite possible, that he simply needs to understand and develop his visual working memory skills?

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, geodob said:

orthographic processing skills?
Which basically involve:
The ability to capture and retain a visual image in visual working memory.
Then to transfer it to short term memory.
Where it can then be moved into long term memory.
Then their are a set of skills with retrieval and manipulation of visual images.

Verbalizing/Visualizing would hit this. Talkies starts back a little farther, with more concrete objects and runs them through the FFC type words that Mainer is used to using. So it might be simpler than she imagines to weave work on this in. It's more of a concept than anything, so if she watches some of their videos she might be like oh duh and just able to do it with stuff she already has. I got the manuals and then just used picture/word pairs from a $5 kit Walmart.

If she loads the words she's drilling for fluency into Quizlet, then you can play memory games with them. 

Edited November 8, 2019 by PeterPan

[Kanin]

13 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

If you orally say /c/ - /a/ - /t/ with separations between the words he can put them together without a problem, but when he sees the letters he cannot, is that right?

Exactly.

[Kanin]

12 hours ago, PeterPan said:

How is his articulation? Are you saying he actually struggles to *say* the sounds? 

 

Articulation is fine, it's just remembering which sound goes with which vowel. 

[ktgrok]

Just now, Mainer said:

Exactly.

And is it that he can say each letter separately when he sees them on the page, but not blend them, or he just can't say the vowel sounds? If it is he still just doesn't know them, than I would stick with a working memory issue - because of course he can't blend them if he can't recall them if that makes sense? Given that scenario and that he can blend fine orally, I'd think that once he knows the sounds fluently and does't have to stop and think of them he'll be able to blend them. But needs that step first - the one to one correspondence of letter sound to print image has to come before blending. 

I might consider making "right brained" flash cards with the vowels - images of the letter in the shape of something that reminds him of the sound. Silly and usually done with pre-schoolers but might help? And having him trace the letter with his finger while he says it, then write the letter while he says it. So a whole line of writing lower case "a" and he says the short /a/ sound as he writes each one. 

[Kanin]

12 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Meanwhile my kid with working memory issues but no dyslexia couldn't remember the letter sounds until he was at least 1st grade or so, at least 7 years old, but once he could he was able to read very quickly. Once the letter sounds finally made it to long term memory past that working memory barrier, he was golden. 

Ah, that's what I hope happens here. That would be awesome.

That must be what happened with my 5th grader suddenly knowing ALL the vowel teams.

[ktgrok]

57 minutes ago, Mainer said:

Ah, that's what I hope happens here. That would be awesome.

That must be what happened with my 5th grader suddenly knowing ALL the vowel teams.

If that is the issue than over learning will help I think. The copying it while saying it, tracing it while saying it, jumping from letter to letter while saying it, etc. But mostly the writing it while saying it. 

Oh, and as a heads up for vowel teams later on, Abecedarian has great "I SPY" pages for those - they were very helpful. 

[Kanin]

5 hours ago, geodob said:

Mainer, from what you've outlined, he may not have developed his orthographic processing skills?
Which basically involve:
The ability to capture and retain a visual image in visual working memory.
Then to transfer it to short term memory.
Where it can then be moved into long term memory.
Then their are a set of skills with retrieval and manipulation of visual images.

Though visual working memory, involves developing a range of acquired skills.  Which children are left to develop themselves, but are given direct help in the development of.
So that how well they develop them, is just random.  They are generally unaware of how they can actually use and further develop their visual working memory.
At least, children are made aware of visual working memory.  With the commonly used statement:  'Picture this in your mind'.
But often children simply don't happen to develop their visual working memory skills. As they weren't directly taught them.
Yet their is no actual obstacle preventing them.
So that it is quite possible, that he simply needs to understand and develop his visual working memory skills?

This is interesting! I'll have to digest it 🙂 

[Kanin]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

And is it that he can say each letter separately when he sees them on the page, but not blend them, or he just can't say the vowel sounds? If it is he still just doesn't know them, than I would stick with a working memory issue - because of course he can't blend them if he can't recall them if that makes sense? Given that scenario and that he can blend fine orally, I'd think that once he knows the sounds fluently and does't have to stop and think of them he'll be able to blend them. But needs that step first - the one to one correspondence of letter sound to print image has to come before blending. 

He can blend most of the time, but he'll just blend with the wrong vowel. Mop = m - a - p, map. But sometimes he'll do the "m-o-p, pot" kinda thing. 

[Kanin]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Verbalizing/Visualizing would hit this. Talkies starts back a little farther, with more concrete objects and runs them through the FFC type words that Mainer is used to using. So it might be simpler than she imagines to weave work on this in. It's more of a concept than anything, so if she watches some of their videos she might be like oh duh and just able to do it with stuff she already has. I got the manuals and then just used picture/word pairs from a $5 kit Walmart.

I would love to do this... maybe if he enters SpEd after testing.

[ktgrok]

17 minutes ago, Mainer said:

He can blend most of the time, but he'll just blend with the wrong vowel. Mop = m - a - p, map. But sometimes he'll do the "m-o-p, pot" kinda thing. 

Ok, so he usually mispronounces the vowel right away. Do you stop him right there? I would not let him continue on and blend - I'd correct right there. We had DD tap each letter and say its sound, then go back and blend the word while running her finger under the letters as she said them. So if he mispronounced the vowel wrong at the tapping stage it would be corrected then. Although now I'm back to wondering is it certain vowels he mixes up - that look similar? 

Might be fun to try him on some words spelled with all capitals for a bit - to see if he has the same issue with the more easily identified letters. There is very little difference visually between a lowercase a and lowercase o, but a big difference between the capitals. 

And he only mixes up the order of the sounds in print, not when done orally?

 

[Pen]

Talkingfingers.com typing was helpful for that sort of problem too.  Because it associates common sound with the letter,  rather than letter name.  (The program will prompt student to “type /a/“  while the display shows a picture of finger on the A key, for example.) 

Also in my son’s HN program worksheet pages where a vowel being learned would be placed in a word and the word then said - or a change with two different vowels, or word sorting...

 

[Pen]

2 hours ago, Mainer said:

He can blend most of the time, but he'll just blend with the wrong vowel. Mop = m - a - p, map. But sometimes he'll do the "m-o-p, pot" kinda thing. 

 

Sounds like he’s been given too many options without getting automaticity on just one.

I would think perhaps he needs to start over with just short /a/.  Get short /a/ pattern totally solid, automatic, fluent—before any other vowel is worked on. 

(Then individually /e/.  Then work discriminating between /a/ and /e/— till that is fluent and with automaticity. Then another short vowel, maybe /i/, individually.  Then discrimination work as between it and each of the previous ones, again to fluency and automaticity...     no unusual sounds yet like R controlled or schwa or short /a/ sound like in taco which creates confusion with /o/ like in mop.  ...) 

Edited November 8, 2019 by Pen

[ElizabethB]

12 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Ok, so he usually mispronounces the vowel right away. Do you stop him right there? I would not let him continue on and blend - I'd correct right there. We had DD tap each letter and say its sound, then go back and blend the word while running her finger under the letters as she said them. So if he mispronounced the vowel wrong at the tapping stage it would be corrected then. Although now I'm back to wondering is it certain vowels he mixes up - that look similar? 

Might be fun to try him on some words spelled with all capitals for a bit - to see if he has the same issue with the more easily identified letters. There is very little difference visually between a lowercase a and lowercase o, but a big difference between the capitals. 

And he only mixes up the order of the sounds in print, not when done orally?

 

Yes, uppercase is great, for guessing as well as easier to write neatly and more distinct between letters.

I also stop students immediately, you don't want errors to go on, the only time I don't correct immediately is during assessments at the start and every few months.  I also have them look up the sound themselves in my charts, guiding them through the looking up process at first, it helps them learn the sounds faster, and also lets them use the charts on their own at home or if you have to attend to something for a bit.

Don Potter has uppercase visions of some of his programs, Blend Phonics for sure.  Also, it is easy to copy and paste things into word and change the case to all uppercase for an entire document.

[PeterPan]

21 hours ago, Pen said:

Sounds like he’s been given too many options without getting automaticity on just one.

And is that partly from him being in a Tier 1 mode of intervention and maybe needing tier 2/3? So then that goes into the discussion about why he needs services and qualifies. 

[Kanin]

6 hours ago, PeterPan said:

And is that partly from him being in a Tier 1 mode of intervention and maybe needing tier 2/3? So then that goes into the discussion about why he needs services and qualifies. 

He's been getting Tier 2 but I'm pretty disenchanted with Tier 2, and Tier 1 for that matter. Our Tier 1 literacy program is not bad as far as phonics goes, but like any program, it goes too fast for a certain percentage of kids. And then they're in Tier 2, but a 30 minute Tier 2 session, with two kids with different needs, goes by ridiculously fast and it's so difficult to get enough done for both kids' unique needs. 

This is my gripe about education in general. In the push to accelerate kids and raise the standard for everybody, the "basics" get glossed over and many kids just never get them. This sets them up for Tier 2 or possibly even Tier 3, when "the basics" would have prevented a lot of troubles. /rant

[PeterPan]

5 hours ago, Mainer said:

This sets them up for Tier 2 or possibly even Tier 3, when "the basics" would have prevented a lot of troubles

Yeah, I've seen some discussion of this, with people trying to get the same (higher quality) materials to be used at ALL the tiers and be done with it. 

[Kanin]

22 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Yeah, I've seen some discussion of this, with people trying to get the same (higher quality) materials to be used at ALL the tiers and be done with it. 

Yep, that's where I'm at, but that's a whole 'nother discussion 😄