Daily Drama--HELP!

[VaScarlett]

Please help this tired Momma. Its crazy at home. I start with morning time. I play a nice song to get them to gather but they grumble and complain about leaving their toys. I read a devo and we do SOTW and maps. They like that. Move into math time. My 9, 7, 5 year olds do math sitting at a table but they all need my help and start interrupting me and each other. The baby is crawling around in the middle of this chaos getting into things. Finally put baby to bed and have to wrangle kids to get back to work. More complaining. 5 year old finishes and runs off to play. 7 and 9 year old complain he is too loud and they just can't think. 7 year old cries because she doesn't want to write. 9 year old is frustrated he doesn't understand math. Finally calm them down and we finish. Do English with 5 year old and begin with 7 yo. She cries again because she doesn't want to "do any more stupid work!" 9 year old is just bursting to go play with legos and can't understand why he can't just play all day. This is a sample of a typical day. It isn't at all what I thought homeschooling would be. I purchased a grammar program (MCT) that was I so excited to do with my oldest and he can't stand it. I am discouraged. I don't know what to do. Please give me advice. What works for you? I try to be kind but firm but usually lose it and start yelling at them. Everyday is full of grumbling and complaining and whining. We have a routine and the kids have chores they do every morning. But schoolwork is like pulling teeth. I'm ready to give up.

[wendyroo]

A couple thoughts:

- Is there any way school could start sooner before they are engaged with toys?  My kids read in their rooms after they wake up (and while their ADHD meds kick in), and then they come down and report right to the breakfast table where they are ready to start eating and doing morning time.

- Could you consolidate the 5 year old's work so that he can quickly finish everything and go off and play?  Last year I had 9, 7, 5 and 3 year olds.  During breakfast (while they were a captive audience) we went through a short morning time of poetry, vocabulary, current events and Spanish practice.  Then, the older two started in on their independent work list while I worked with the 5 year old and the 3 year old worked on brushing her teeth and getting dressed.  By the time the 3 year old was ready, I had gotten the 5 year old started and could spend a few minutes doing something pre-schooly with the youngest.  After doing his math and handwriting, the 5 year old read a book to the 3 year old and I and then he was done for the day.  His total table time was about 30 minutes.  Obviously he did other school stuff (morning time during breakfast, read alouds and audiobooks, "helping" with science experiments, etc), but most of his sit-down school was done first thing so that I didn't have to keep calling him away from playing.

- Could the baby spend some time watching the 5 year old play?  I've had good luck setting up a pack and play near the big kid play area or putting a baby in an exersaucer or doorway jumper nearby.  Just having a companion seemed to help both the younger and the older be content for a bit longer.

- I have never been able to have the big kids do math while the little kids were around.  At our house, math is always right after lunch.  Babies go up for nap, preschoolers have a quiet rest time, and big kids sit down to do math before they too go off for rest time.

- Last year, my kids did really well with a school checklist.  Each morning they knew exactly what would be required of them.  I even included chores, and I listed everything in approximately the order it would be completed so that they could "see" their day.  So, for example, my 9 year old's Thursday checklist looked like:  Literature, Empty Dishwasher, Morning Time, Typing – 10 minutes, Writing, Duolingo Story, History (with Mom and Elliot), Spanish (with Mom and Elliot), Piano – 15 minutes, Take out Garbage, RAZ Kids – 2 books with quizzes, Spanish Homework, SAT Practice, Math.  It looks like a lot, but I keep the lessons very short, so everything except math would be completed in about 3.5 hours in the morning and then math would take another 20-30 minutes right after lunch.
 

[Sherry in OH]

Well, toys are more fun than lessons.  One thing that helps is making doing lessons non-negotatible.

Toys before breakfast, then they are clean up or put behind a closed door until after morning lessons are done.  Have boxes of special toys for 5 year old and baby. These are toys that are only available when older children are doing school work.

Move directly from breakfast to breakfast cleanup/grooming to schoolwork.  Supervise grooming as needed to get them moving quickly.  

• Morning/circle time: Song, devotion, SOTW, any other group work
• Wiggle time - play Ring around the Rosy, Teddy Bear, London Bridge or other action song
• Seatwork
  • Work with one child at a time on math, when you are working with 9 year old, 7 year old does copywork, coloring, a puzzle, silent reading, or anything else she can do without your assistance, 5 year old works on fine motor skills activities
  • Switch to working with 7 year old, 9 year old does independent work, 5 year old switches to a new activity
  • Work with 5 year old, both older children do tasks that do not require your assistance.  
• Break - go outside for 15 to 30 minutes when possible, if not possible play Simon Says or other action games
• Seatwork part 2 - continue rotating through children.  If 5 year old is too noisy when playing, would he listen to an audiobook while older children are doing seatwork?
• Break for playtime followed by lunch
• Quiet time for 5 year old and baby - if 5 year old doesn't nap he may look at picture books or play quietly in bed for 1 hour.  One-on-one with older children, child you are not working with does silent reading or audio book - if you are able to finish lessons before lunch, this can be one hour of quiet time for older children as well.

 

[Miss Tick]

In addition to the practical suggestions upthread, I would tackle the complaining and the interrupting (separately) as life lessons. It will probably take a long time of consistent reminders, so brace yourself for the long haul. Find a concise phrase you can repeat over and over as needed. If your wording is consistent, they will soon be able to finish the statement for you, and eventually they will know what you are going to say before you say it - which is when they can start heading off the behavior themselves. Something like:

"Please don't interrupt, wait until the speaker has finished a sentence."

 

[lots of little ducklings]

2 hours ago, wendyroo said:

- Last year, my kids did really well with a school checklist.  Each morning they knew exactly what would be required of them.  I even included chores, and I listed everything in approximately the order it would be completed so that they could "see" their day.  So, for example, my 9 year old's Thursday checklist looked like:  Literature, Empty Dishwasher, Morning Time, Typing – 10 minutes, Writing, Duolingo Story, History (with Mom and Elliot), Spanish (with Mom and Elliot), Piano – 15 minutes, Take out Garbage, RAZ Kids – 2 books with quizzes, Spanish Homework, SAT Practice, Math.  It looks like a lot, but I keep the lessons very short, so everything except math would be completed in about 3.5 hours in the morning and then math would take another 20-30 minutes right after lunch.
 

 

This is us, and it has worked wonders.  Chores and school tasks are all on the same chart (each child has their own chart), in roughly the order that they need to be accomplished.  I group together the school things each child can do independently, the school things they need mom for, and the school things they do as a group with me and sibs.  If, for example, DS 11 isn't working one-on-one with me, he knows he needs to be quietly working on independent schoolwork / chores.

It's not perfect,  but it's a huge improvement over previous years.   I've been there, and a tableful of children all needing individualized help with math at the same time is misery.  

Oh, and I've written (and laminated) each kid's name on a "calling" card.  When I dismiss someone from one-on-one time with me, they "call" the next kid in to me by taking the card with that kid's name on it to that kid. That kid then brings it (and their school supplies) to me.  Sounds silly but it eliminated a lot of wasted transition time and hollering for people on my part.  (We also have a school bell, but that calls everybody to me, not just one specific child.). 

[MerryAtHope]

Some complaining is going to be normal, but some things that helped us:

1, five-minute warnings before making kids shift gears. Ie, "You have five more minutes to play, and then it's time to clean up and start school." Most of us don't really like to be interrupted, and knowing a transition is coming can help. 

2, consistent routine. If you need, use a chart where they see exactly where they are in their day. They can check off, move a magnet or velcro sticker etc.... to see exactly where they are. Something visual and concrete that lets them know they have things they have to do (school, chores) but also that if they get their work done, they have time to play outside, play with Lego, etc... I like the "toys before breakfast" idea, where breakfast is the thing that marks the end of play time. I'd have something ready for them to do after breakfast if you need to change or feed baby (simple workbook or an audio story etc...), and start your morning together time after that. 

3, pre-coaching. This helped us so much, especially to do it on Sunday night before we go from "weekend" schedule back to "week day" schedule. talk through what you'll be doing and what the schedule is. Ask the 9 and 7 yo's questions to have them tell the routine back to you. 

4, some kind of interrupt rule. It could be raising their hand, or putting out a little sign that says "I need help" etc... It could be gently touching your elbow and waiting quietly until you address them. In our home, I made it clear that no one was to interrupt the teaching time I had with another sibling. If they did, I didn't answer their question. I simply said, "You're interrupting. Try to figure it out on your own, and you can ask me again when I'm done with ____." Don't answer an interrupter's questions and keep saying the same mantra over and over! 

5, For us, workboxes really helped with independent work. They could visually see what was next and go through their work. 

For baby, I would rotate the older kids a play time to watch baby, in 15 or 30 minute increments while you work with one or both of the others. 

Hang in there! You're doing a lot with all the little ones--it won't always be this hectic.

[PeterPan]

Is this your first year? Where were they the previous years?

I don't have multiple kids, but I do have one dc who is virtual entropy (ASD 2, more inclined to be on his planet and do what he wants than be on mine, lol). I would consider hiring someone to watch them while you build routines with ONE. Alternately, have very low expectations for all and ramp up, one subject each week. And the subjects would include breakfast, morning chores, sitting for devotions. So the first week we all wake up, eat breakfast, tick that off the list, good job, go play. Next week we all wake up, eat breakfast, do our morning chores, tick that off the list, go play. Keep adding one piece at a time, moving forward as you build your system to work.

I do think you have serious logistics issues, but I can't speak to that. But having huge expectations all at once isn't helping you. My (local person I know who) has a bunch of kids, and that's how she always starts, ramping up from ONE THING. Get one thing going well, build routines. 

What do they like to do in August? Swim? When making new demands, you want some motivators and you want very clear expectations. So you have on the whiteboard or on a posterboard everyone's plan for the week: eat, chores, swim. 

The other tip a mom gave me used ago that she used with her kids when it got hairy was to say "We need to sit and think about Jesus!!" Like don't be afraid to just go sit down, take a break. Buy popsicles and say everyone needs a popsicle break. 

Edited August 6, 2019 by PeterPan

[barnwife]

I have a 9, 7, almost 6, and a 2.5 yo.

Here is our routine. We start with morning time (prayer, sci or history RA, chapter book RA, some picture books, etc...) Then comes breakfast. After breakfast we brush teeth etc...for anyone who hasn't done so. Then we either go for a walk or do reading/phonics and speech. The kids I am not working with play or read whatever they want. (Well, soon the 9 yo will use this as assigned reading time.) Depending on the weather, we may switch the order (reading and speech before a walk). I've discovered that the walk is crucial to table time going well for us. If we haven't had a walk, table time will be...not good. We do reading/phonics and speech in our living room on our couch or the floor.

For table time, I call a kid (usually going oldest to youngest, sometimes vice versa). They do language arts and math for table time. I have a visual timer. When a child comes they work for 15 minutes. They can choose the order of work (spelling, other written language stuff, handwriting, maths). When the timer goes off, I switch to another kid. When they are done with all subjects, they are done. Obviously, the 9 yo needs more 15 min work sessions than the almost 6 yo. Again, the kids I am not working with do whatever they want.

We break for lunch whenever it seems right. They don't get tablet/TV time until their work is done. Anyone being too loud for people doing school are banished to another room.

I can't claim this is perfect (it's not). But they know the things that are expected of them. Do they whine sometimes? Yes. But...they know that I'll start the timer again if they whine too much/waste too much time. So it's longer before their next break. And, of course, losing tablet time would be tragic, so they don't push too much (usually).

Also, the visual timer has been a game changer. They love knowing they get a break when it goes off, even if in the middle of something. Then we just pick up right there the next time they sit down. And often they now choose to finish a lesson rather than come back to the same thing.

 

[Garga]

I might be repeating things that others have said, but here are a few tips from my past.  My boys are both high school age now, and I’m not sure exactly when I implemented each thing below, so if some won’t work for you yet, they might in the future:

1.  Connection first.  After every separation, have a time of reintroduction and connection with each other.  Just woke up after being separated all night?  Snuggle.  The kids just finished watching a show for half an hour and were “separated” from you mentally?  Reconnect (snuggle, chat about the movie). You were working on a chore while they played without you and you guys were doing things separately?  Reconnect—snuggle, talk, whatever.

Never walk into a room when the movie is done and turn it off and say, “Ok, guys!  Time to tidy up!”  First you snuggle them, ask them about the movie and THEN say it’s time to tidy up.

Never walk in after you were washing up in the kitchen and launch into, “Ok guys!  TIme to put the toys away and do school!”  Instead, you reconnect first and then say it’s time for school.  

It can take months for this to start paying off, but overall, it’s a great technique to raising kids.  I still use it.  My guys are in high school and I never leave the house without finding them and giving them a hug before I go, and when I come back home, I find them and hug them.  And throughout the day if they’re off somewhere doing something alone, I make a point of saying something easy and nice before saying, “Can you do X please?”  (Calling up the stairs:  “Boy14!” “Yeah?” “You busy?” “Making a house in minecraft.”  “Oh yeah?  What color stone?” “Red.”  “Cool.  In the next 5 minutes can you throw in a load of laundry please?”  “Yeah...”  )  They won’t be super pleased do have to do work, but that tiny bit of connection goes a long way to keep the tone in the household civil.  This takes time...I’ve been doing this for a decade and things run pretty smoothly and I attribute a lot of that to this way of connecting.  I’d suggest starting now.  It keeps you guys as collaborators and not enemies.  

2.  A strong routine.  You don’t necessarily have to do things at the same time every day, but do them in the same order.  Like, you can eat breakfast at 7 or 8 or 9, but make sure that the activities you do every day leading up to and during school are the same.  The start time doesn't matter, but kids need to get into a routine “We eat breakfast, we put our dishes away, we snuggle on the couch, we get out our school books.”  

3.  If possible, no playing before school.  This way there isn’t time to get involved in a game only to be dragged away from the fun into doing school.  That would make anyone unhappy.  Or maybe they only play with certain toys that are easier to walk away from in the morning.

4.  Do the parts they dislike most first if you can.  Sometimes that’s a balancing act, though, and you have to figure out how best to do the hard subjects while juggling the little ones.

5.  Set a timer so they know when each part of school is over.  I didn’t used to do this and it was awful for the kids.  The lessons just dragged on forever with no end in sight and they’d fight it.  When they knew math would end when the timer went off, they could better endure it . The problem:  sometimes they will try to waste that time.  I had to calmly explain that the timer had to pause when the work paused and it would start up again when they started up again.  (Allowing room for normal distractions that little people have.)

6.  I’m not sure how to word this one or how to tweak it for you, so I’ll tell you my story:  At first, my sons could play on their electronics when school was done. But they started trying to dash through school and did everything wrong so it could be DONE and they could play on their electronics.  And when I had to make them re-do half their math work and re-write their sloppy stuff, they’d get soooo righteously indignant and angry.  That’s not FAIR!  I did the work!  You said I could play when I finished all the math!  I finished it!  

I finally had to make a rule that there were no electronics until 4:00.  That meant there was no reason to dash through their school work because they could work slowly and still be done well before 4:00.  They’d have to do something else until the blessed 4:00 hour came and they could play electronics.  

I’m not sure how to tweak this, but maybe with ds9 bursting to play Lego, you set a time when it’s playtime.  And until then, it’s school time and even if he’s done regular school, you could have schooly things for him to do until Lego time, so he knows to give up the idea of rushing through school to do Lego.  Maybe have him do some art projects or reading really fun books or something instead of constantly trying to ditch school to get to the play part of each day.  This way, he knows when playtime is and doesn’t get antsy because he wants school done NOW so he can move on to playtime.  If playtime isn’t until 2:00, then there’s no point in being antsy at 1:00.  

 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Garga

[Garga]

9 hours ago, VaScarlett said:

Please help this tired Momma. Its crazy at home. I start with morning time. I play a nice song to get them to gather but they grumble and complain about leaving their toys.

(See above about connecting and possibly not playing with toys before school)

I read a devo and we do SOTW and maps. They like that. Move into math time.

(I’d start with devo and then move into math, saving SOTW and maps until afterwards, so they have something to look forward to after math)

My 9, 7, 5 year olds do math sitting at a table but they all need my help and start interrupting me and each other.

(A bit of training is needed here and it’ll take time, but stick to it.  Let everyone know that they’ll each get time with you and if they don’t know how to do something, to skip and go to the next one.  If they can’t do any of them because they totally forgot how to add entirely and the entire page is adding, then give them tracing paper and they can trace pictures while they wait for you.  Or some other quiet activity.  They’ll forget and try to interrupt, but sweetly explain that the new rule is that they wait their turn for help.)

The baby is crawling around in the middle of this chaos getting into things. Finally put baby to bed and have to wrangle kids to get back to work. More complaining.

(See above about reconnecting when you come back after being separated while you put baby down.  Also, at this point, I’d probably make a little chart of the school day and the part about “put baby down for nap” would be on a separate sticky note and I’d show everyone that “we do these activities every day, but putting baby down for a nap sometimes get done at different times.  So, when it’s time for baby to go down for the nap, don’t forget that we still have the rest of the school day to do.

I’d probably also have a set thing that they do while you put baby down.  Maybe a short cartoon to watch and they can watch it to the end, even if it took less time to put baby down than the cartoon.  I’d have a set activity that they do while you put baby down so they don’t get involved in their own activity at that time and then have to be dragged away from it.  Like, old Loony Tune cartoons (or Tom and Jerry) were each only a few minutes long, but they’d show them back to back to make it a half hour show.  You could put in something like that and they could watch until you’re done putting baby down and you could wait for the one they’re on to be done when you come out and then school resumes.  Instead of them watching an entire 30 minute show, they just watch a few short cartoons until you get out.  They can hold a toy in their hands while they watch, but no going off and getting involved playing with something.)

5 year old finishes and runs off to play. 7 and 9 year old complain he is too loud and they just can't think. 7 year old cries because she doesn't want to write. 9 year old is frustrated he doesn't understand math. Finally calm them down and we finish. Do English with 5 year old and begin with 7 yo. She cries again because she doesn't want to "do any more stupid work!" 9 year old is just bursting to go play with legos and can't understand why he can't just play all day. This is a sample of a typical day. It isn't at all what I thought homeschooling would be. I purchased a grammar program (MCT) that was I so excited to do with my oldest and he can't stand it.

(Ok—the above paragraph is hard.  My kids fought me a lot on school until about 5th grade.  It wasn’t until then that it sunk in that they couldn’t out-last me and force me to give up on teaching them.  I think until that point they thought, “If we just whine long enough, she’ll give up on her silly notion of educating us and let us play all day!” 

Hang in there.  

But with that said, you might have to really reconsider the curriculums you’re using.  You may need to start some new threads and get some ideas of what you could change.  Some curric just doesn’t click with some kids.  It can take quite a bit of tweaking.  If I were you, I’d create threads with each issue (7 yo and writing, 9 yo with math, 9 yo with grammar) and I’d list exactly what you’re using and what upsets the kids the most and see if people have clever ideas on how to fix it, or clever ideas on what program might work better.)

 

I am discouraged. I don't know what to do. Please give me advice. What works for you? I try to be kind but firm but usually lose it and start yelling at them. Everyday is full of grumbling and complaining and whining. We have a routine and the kids have chores they do every morning. But schoolwork is like pulling teeth. I'm ready to give up.

(This does happen a lot.  Like I said, there was a LOT of grumbling up through 5th grade around here.  Try implementing the things people have said in this thread and see if it helps.  I really do feel for you.  There were a lot of very, very (very) hard days homeschooling over the years.)

 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Garga

[barnwife]

I thought of something else. When I start morning time, I don't require them to be on the couch. So when it's time/I'm ready, I sing our gathering song and sit down and begin. I act as though I don't care if they are there or not. And somehow they all end up there with me, with no whining or complaining. Sometimes a couple will keep building with legos or whatever during prayer or the first picture book. But doesn't last long around here. They all end up on the couch with me pretty quickly.

Also, I don't think much would get done around here if I had them all at the table during table time. It goes much better for us if only the one I am currently working with is at the table and the others are elsewhere. Sometimes it goes okay if two kids are there, but any more and things go downhill very quickly. I just haven't figured out the secret to having everybody there at once and making progress (so you aren't alone). They are so young that they all need me right there so it doesn't go well if they are all there at once.

I hope you are able to find something that helps!

[caedmyn]

Do morning time while they are eating breakfast or as soon as they finish, while they are still sitting at the table.  Keep it short (maybe 10 mins to start) and build the time from there.

Separate them for table work.  I have always had to do this, even when I just had 2 that were school age.  (Mine are currently 13, 10, 8, 6, 3, and 1.)  I just cannot divide my attention between multiple kids without feeling crazy and super stressed.  You can come up with different areas for kids to do schoolwork (one at kitchen table and one at a desk nearby, for example, or move a kitchen chair around the corner and have the child use a lap desk on it).  Then you can work directly with the one at the table while being able to monitor the one at the desk.  Also, it might be helpful to find some easy (and fun) busywork to keep one child occupied while you do schoolwork with another.  You could assign a time to read or listen to an audiobook, for example, or use a learning app such as XtraMath or Teach Your Monster to Read.

Do all of the 5 yo's schoolwork at once and then let him go play.  He doesn't need more than about 30-40 minutes of seat work total at age 5 (math, handwriting practice, and phonics instruction is plenty for a 5 yo).

Choose some curriculum that is NOT teacher-intensive.  If every subject for every child is teacher-intensive, that's a quick recipe for burnout IMO.  You will probably still need to keep each child on track, but it's easier to remind a child to focus on their workbook periodically than to directly teach them every subject.  Also, choose minimalist curriuclum as much as possible (ie not curriculum that has tons of parts and pieces and go-along books and activities for every lesson).  You could have them listen to a SOTW audiobook while they eat lunch, and call it good for history.  If your 9 yo is old enough for Teaching Textbooks, maybe that would be worth considering for him.  Also, it's ok to skip writing instruction for your 9 YO for the year while you're working on adjusting to HS'ing and building good habits.  He could just do a couple of sentences of copywork every day and that's good enough. 

 

Edited August 6, 2019 by caedmyn

[VaScarlett]

Thank you all so much! I am going to read through these in depth tonight and make a school schedule. I think knowing what is coming next will help my kids. I like the idea of reconnecting with my kids throughout the day and bringing in audio books. Thank you for your help!