Let's talk Latin

[sarahmama]

It is planning time for my rising 4th grader and I think I am ready to take the plunge with Latin. I have no Latin experience, but he is an eager student who is a highly visual learner. What have you used and loved? Why? What have you used and hated? Why? Thanks!

[HomeAgain]

Getting Started With Latin is my favorite so far.  It's cheap, non-threatening, and gives kids a confidence boost before plunging in to something more robust.
Latin's Not So Tough was a pretty great introduction, too, but after a while I didn't feel as comfortable teaching because the books are written to the student, but not as clear as they could be after about book 3 or 4.
First Form Latin was...okay after GSWL.  I don't like how workbooky it is.  My kid learned a LOT, but...he's not as fond of the subject when he's using FFL.  It would be a definite deep-end jump into the Latin pool if you start from nothing.  I decided to go a new direction and back up again next year to Latin For Children A.  He liked the activity book for it when I added it to FFL, so we're going to do it fully for a while and let him decide to go to B or return to the Forms.
And last, Cambridge - this is neither love or hate, but my kid enjoyed it A LOT.  He had the vocabulary down well after GSWL and loved reading through the pages because it's more of an immersion method.  I mostly let him just read the picture stories and short paragraph stories without doing any written work for it.

[Miss Tick]

After GSWL we moved easily into the Big Book of Lively Latin and on into the 2nd book. In addition to the vocab and grammar there is a nice review of Roman history over the course of the two books. After that we move from Latin into living languages. 

[cintinative]

We have a love/hate relationship with Latin for Children and Latin Alive here. 

I do like it for the most part. I can tell you from experience that the older the text, the more likely there are to be tons of errors. This is what we found the most irritating.  I made the mistake (?) of using older videos for LFC-B (there is a new version, but before that there were two prior versions at least).  Anyway, my kids hated it. HATED.  Last year my youngest did LFC-C while my oldest did LA1. I just didn't think my youngest was ready for a high school level Latin course (LA is very fast-paced IMO).  Unfortunately my oldest DS does not like the teacher for LA. I really like her so this just goes to show you YMMV.  It is like pulling teeth to convince him he should watch the videos. He pretty much didn't watch them last year and this year he is doing LA2 and I really think he should.  

Anyway, I think there are clips of the teaching available on the CAP site so it might be worth checking if your child likes/dislikes it.

One thing my DS13 complains about LA is that it lacks the vocabulary review which was built into LFC. So keep that in mind. We do quizlet every day (with LFC and LA).

This past year I had a gift certificate and I bought First Form Latin Book Four. I can tell you that the instructor information seems more robust in it, and I puffy heart love the clean layouts of the tables in the back.  Seriously, so nice and clean and easy to find things.  Unfortunately we are already in deep with CAP. We did Song School, LFC A-C and now LA1 (and starting LA2). It's too late to jump ship.  

I think the main reason we went to LFC was because we loved Song School.

A couple comments so I don't cause confusion. Generally you don't do LFC-C and LA1. I am doing that because my son was not ready for LA1 last year and honestly I thought the review that some of LA1 would be might be encouraging for him.  

Caveat Magistra (Let the Teacher Beware): My children are officially in the preteen grumpies over here and hate mom because "she makes us do Latin.  Latin is a dead language and why can't we just do Spanish if we are doing to do Spanish anyway, etc. etc."  I receive more daily whining on Latin than any other subject.  Many days I come close to conceding, but my plan was always just to go through LA2 and then quit (unless they transform into some other human that likes Latin somehow).  We are so close, and I think we can make it. And I have already self-taught myself through LA2 so this momma doesn't want to concede.   I think most of my homeschooling friends secretly think I am crazy.

[alisha]

We're in the middle of Getting Started with Latin, then plan to do Visual Latin (a DVD). 

 

[Mbelle]

We started with Prima Latina and I do still love that curriculum and the video.  Then we started on First Form Latin and both older kids did it.  DD complained so much about Latin that I folded and let her quit after First Form.  DS continued and finished Fourth Form Latin.  Great accomplishment but we were toast by then and quit Latin after that.  We did learn Latin though and with all the recitations and vocab flashcards I learned Latin too.

I have a rising 2nd grader and boy am I having trouble getting motivated to even think of attempting Latin again (and DS did MP online academy) in a few years. LOL

 

[8filltheheart]

The best Latin program I have seen out there in terms of solid instruction and engagement is So You Really Want to Learn Latin Prep by Galore Park. It is currently OOP, but  you might be able to find a used copy.

I found some copies on amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1902984986/ref=mw_dp_olp?ie=UTF8&condition=all

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Latin-Prep-Book-second-Textbook/dp/1902984986

 

Edited July 9, 2019 by 8FillTheHeart

[Faithr]

Getting Started with Latin by William Linney is hands down the best intro to Latin. I've used it with little kids and I've used it with adults.  Afterwards, I've found the Mother of Divine Grace syllabus using Henle to be a good next step.  You need to spice Henle up a bit, but there are lots of fun helps out there.  Two of my favorites are Latintutorials.com (I just find the tutorial video that matches what we are learning) and http://bestlatin.blogspot.com/  My kids and students loved learning the 3 word mottos, etc.

The other really fun thing to do (but wait until 7th grade or something is the National Latin Exam.

All that said, I think it is far more effective to wait until 6th grade for GSWL and then move to Henle in 7th.  If I were you and knew nothing about Latin, I'd recommend you start teaching yourself now to prep for 6th grade.

[cintinative]

2 hours ago, Faithr said:

 

All that said, I think it is far more effective to wait until 6th grade for GSWL and then move to Henle in 7th.  If I were you and knew nothing about Latin, I'd recommend you start teaching yourself now to prep for 6th grade.

 +1 more vote on this.

I ended up buying a used copy of Latin for Teachers which really helped me, but I also (later) bought a Udemy course using Wheelocks and that was helpful too. Very different teaching styles so, again, if you choose video based instruction, make sure you like the instructor.  😃  I prefer videos to help me learn. I am sure others could easily teach themselves from a book.  

Also, this shouldn't be an issue with a 4th grader but there is a lot of grammar in Latin. Some would argue you don't need to do grammar with Latin because Latin teaches grammar but I found that my kids fared better from having learned what a direct object was before it came up in Latin. This may vary a lot with the curriculum you use. As I mentioned, we have only ever done CAP. 

[Faithr]

I'll tell you my background.  I didn't know a lick of Latin and learned alongside my oldest children who took lessons from a Latin teacher near us.  Then I taught my youngest two Latin.  I also wound up teaching Latin for 4 years at a homeschool co-op.  They had the most effective way of teaching I've seen (in my limited experience).  They exposed the younger children to Latin through hymns and prayers and root words for English. Then in 6th grade they used a program very similar to GSWL (perhaps bit meatier).  In 7th grade (which is the grade I usually taught) they did the 1st half of Henle's first high school text.  Then in 8th grade they taught the second half.  By 9th grade the students were pretty much ready to read both Julius Caesar's Commentarii de Bello Gallico (at least the redacted one Henle has for his 10th grade level book) plus significant portions of the New Testament (which is written in pretty simple Latin - still with a lot of glossing.)  The co-op's team regularly won awards in the certamen competitions (like a Latin quiz bowl) in our area, even against charter schools, classical schools and g&t high schools!  The old way of teaching Latin, like Henle, does the trick in the quickest way, imo.  The Commentarii de Bello Gallico is what the AP exam focuses on and yet these co-op kids were studying it in 9th grade! 

From my experience, I think you get more accomplished if you start a bit later (6th grade) with a really clear and gentle intro.  The kids don't get burned out, they are up to the challenge, they've got a better understanding and facility with their own language so they have something to build on when learning Latin.  I just think you get farther quicker if you start later but then get hard core fast!  That gets them through the difficult, drudgery part and into the really interesting and feeling accomplished part the fastest!

[8filltheheart]

I am going to add my voice on agreeing on waiting later. Latin grammar gets complicated. You can spend a lot of time doing this slowly and not getting into the complexities at a younger age, or you can just wait until around 6th grade and study Latin. I also think being stronger in grammar in general makes studying Latin easier.

Our experience is different, though. I still don't know Latin. I know enough to listen to their translations and ask them questions to guide them to think through the grammar, but I do it the same way I work with them on math that is beyond my abilities. I work with the answer key in my hand and work my way through the answer vs having to know off the top of my head. It works here bc I have bright and motivated students, If I can't guide them that way on my own, we sit together with the answers and work our way through the answers together. Even though they know more than I do, I am still able to see some things that they don't. (For example, my English grammar exceeds theirs when they first start Latin, so I bring that into my working through the translations, etc.)

 

 

[cintinative]

@Faithr  because of the Latin burnout my kids are experiencing I would have to say in hindsight your plan makes more sense.  My kids look at their two years of Song School and two years of grammar level Latin as "four years of Latin" and so now we are in our "fifth" year of Latin, etc.  Really that is not the case, but they see it differently. 

 

 

[Kerry Blue]

6 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

The best Latin program I have seen out there in terms of solid instruction and engagement is So You Really Want to Learn Latin Prep by Galore Park. It is currently OOP, but  you might be able to find a used copy.

I found some copies on amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1902984986/ref=mw_dp_olp?ie=UTF8&condition=all

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Latin-Prep-Book-second-Textbook/dp/1902984986

 

If I may make a quick hijack: My memory has your family using Artes Latinae at one point. Did you find Latin Prep to be a better introduction to latin grammar?

[8filltheheart]

3 minutes ago, Kerry Blue said:

If I may make a quick hijack: My memory has your family using Artes Latinae at one point. Did you find Latin Prep to be a better introduction to latin grammar?

Yes.  We ended up giving up on Artes Latinae.  LP is solid grammar in straightforward instruction that is colorful and engaging.  I have started and dropped more Latin programs over the yrs than I care to think about. 

I have never seen GSWL before, but based on the discussions on this forum, I bought GSWFrench.  I absolutely do not "get" GSW.  It is way toooooo slow and just not the way I want my kids to engage with learning a foreign language.  Prima Latina, Henle, Latina Christiana......drier than dust.  I had about given up ever sticking with Latin until we found LP.  Since finding it,  my "middle" kids all studied Latin at minimum through high school Latin 3 (dc #4,5 and 6). My youngest will start Latin in 5th. (She is my most advanced child and asked to study Latin this yr, but I am going to make her wait at least 1 more yr.)

[mathnerd]

We used Song School Latin (books 1 & 2) and then GSWL. SSL gave my young child some fun stuff to do like drawing and labeling pictures and tracing latin words etc (which is what he could have done at that age due to still developing motor skills). We did GSWL orally and I made flashcards to review. GSWL also has mp3's online for each lesson made by the author so that you can teach correct pronunciation. My son loved GSWL because he loved translating the sentences and he is very good at grammar and the program made complete sense to him. I was very confused on how to proceed after GSWL. My son was still young enough to like material written to very young students - so, I chose Minimus (cambridge latin) and he enjoyed it for a while. When we exhausted that content, I decided to hire a teacher (turns out that she is very good) - she uses Cambridge Latin as the spine but adds in extensive content from other sources (for grammar, translations, idioms, writing projects, certamen, contests etc) and also covers roman history & mythology. I could not have taught latin at the high school level and it helps to have someone teach it at that level. I would have used online classes like Lukeion if I did not find a local teacher.

[Zoo Keeper]

Just a FYI, the author of GSWL is doing a follow up book that is due to be out this fall... updates are on his FB page for Armfield Academic Press. 

And there's also Linney's Latin Class, by the same author.  http://www.linneyslatinclass.com/

Latin Prep is a great program as well. 

I"m also fond of Latin Book One, by Scott and Horn.

Henle with Memoria guides worked very well for high school at my house.

 

[Faithr]

At the risk of seeming weird, but since I fell in love with Latin while learning alongside my older kids (with a great teacher - not me!), I thought I would expand on how I'd do things with the benefit of hindsight and my own experiences.

4th grade/5th grade - I'd use Lingua Angelica from Memoria Press to just memorize a hymn or prayer a quarter (fall, winter, spring) but make sure the memorization sticks and the student sees it and hears it.  I'd do this right alongside the student - something you do together.  Then I'd also use English from the Roots Up flashcards.  I'd stick them up on the fridge once a week and together we'd learn English roots (I actually did this with my own kids).  I am referencing older programs because that is what I used and had available to me when I had 4th graders).

While you are doing this, take yourself through Getting Started with Latin and then begin Henle.  You can use Memoria press but honestly I think they are overkill.  I prefer Mother of Divine Grace syllabus and just use your notebook to write out paradigms and exercises as you need to.  This way you will have the knowledge and the confidence to help your student learn Latin.  I think a lot of frustration in learning Latin in the homeschool is that moms just want to shove the material at the kids and say learn this!  But Latin is hard and a child needs a coach for sure to get through it, unless they are especially gifted or self-motivated.  So in order to coach the child you need to at least be a bit ahead of student in terms of the language.  If you come across something that you don't understand in Henle you can always ask here or there are lots of Latin learning support groups out there you can access as well.

If your child has six hymns/prayers memorized and a solid intro to word roots by 6th grade, he or she is set up for success to tackle Getting Started with Latin which can be taught in a very casual, relaxed way.  Lessons can last anywhere from 5 to 20 minutes.  Just work through it at your child's own pace.  It's all good!  Keep it light and fun!  It's adventure you are doing together!

Then to go hard core - start Henle.  This is the way I taught it (and in fact I am leading a couple women from my church through Henle right now, though we are on summer break due to vacation schedules).  

The way to do it is dedicate one hour a week to sitting down and actually teaching it like a teacher in a classroom.  The student will do homework the rest of the week (I assumed at least 3 other times during the week - about 20-30 minutes a pop.)

For the hour session:

1)  Begin with fun hook (5 minutes)  You can get creative here and follow your student's interests or what would appeal to him/her.  I use 3 word mottoes, Latin expressions,, quotes, etc.

2)  Review paradigm on whiteboard (3 to 10 minutes)  Student writes it up on the board and you chant together

3) Review and correct homework (you can review everything or just pick out the ones you struggled with using the handy dandy answer key).

4) Learn new material (read through what Henle says and refer to the blue grammar book)

5)  End with something fun (usually this meant doing 3 to 5 questions from a National Latin Exam) (til the hour ends)  All kids I ever taught, my own and my students from the co-op all loved working through the NLE.  In fact, you could make it goal for your own homeschool to take it.  It is a nice concrete goal that gently keeps the pressure on so that you don't slack off.  The ladies I am working with at my church also love the NLE.  

Then assign homework for rest of week.  Henle can be dry and feel like drudgery at times.  The repetitive exercises are necessary though.  What I would do was have kids do what Henle considered 'essential' and then anything above that, they could pick 5 or 10 or whatever to do.  You are aiming for them to just work for 20 or 30 minutes or so 3x a week.  However, they should also work on memorizing paradigms and vocabulary.

You can take a notebook and make the front part where your student writes out paradigms and the back section (the bigger portion) where he writes out his exercises.  My kids hated having to write out vocabulary so instead we used Quizlet.  Make sure they go at least once a week to review vocabulary.  Or you can quiz each other.  Occasionally use the MODG syllabus for periodic quizzes.  And you might feel the need to supplement those quizzes as well.  For instance MODG doesn't have a quiz for the 4th and 5th declension so I just say ok write out the declensions everyone!

Ok, that's my 2 cents.  One of the greatest benefits of homeschooling for me was that it gave me this great love for Latin.  I started in my early 40s learning it so I have to keep up my study to retain it.  I'm still a student myself and have never reached true proficiency but as a fun mental exercise, I really enjoy it.  It's become a hobby and a social thing for me.

 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Faithr
typos

[Slache]

Based on conversations with multiple people on the hive and real life who can actually read (and in some cases speak) Latin successfully we're doing GSWL and KGWL (GSWL2) in 4th and 5th and hopefully finishing Oxford by the end of 8th grade.

Everyone I've met that considers themselves proficient in Latin used either Oxford or Cambridge. Most were adults but of the homeschoolers in the crowd those who tried to do it middle school were able to without a problem.

We have one more school year before we begin Latin so I have no personal experience to share.

[8filltheheart]

55 minutes ago, Slache said:

Based on conversations with multiple people on the hive and real life who can actually read (and in some cases speak) Latin successfully we're doing GSWL and KGWL (GSWL2) in 4th and 5th and hopefully finishing Oxford by the end of 8th grade.

Everyone I've met that considers themselves proficient in Latin used either Oxford or Cambridge. Most were adults but of the homeschoolers in the crowd those who tried to do it middle school were able to without a problem.

We have one more school year before we begin Latin so I have no personal experience to share.

I would add that Wheelock's is equally used by people who are proficient in Latin.  Wheelock's is solid (and I think less tedious then Henle.)

[Slache]

44 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I would add that Wheelock's is equally used by people who are proficient in Latin.  Wheelock's is solid (and I think less tedious then Henle.)

Would you choose one over the other?

Free PDF of Wheelock's

[Faithr]

45 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I would add that Wheelock's is equally used by people who are proficient in Latin.  Wheelock's is solid (and I think less tedious then Henle.)

Wheelock's goes much faster than Henle.  It is a college text vs. Henle which is an early 1950's high school text.  

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, Slache said:

Would you choose one over the other?

Free PDF of Wheelock's

My dd used Wheelock's; my ds used Cambridge.  My dd used Wheelock's after 2 yrs of LP and completed it in 1 yr as her Latin 3 credit. (She went on to do Latin poetry the following yr.)  Ds did LP for 2 yrs followed by a 3rd yr  with SYRWTLLatin 3 (the non-prep version).  He took Latin in college for fun and they used the Cambridge text.  For him, there was some different vocab and mental review since he hadn't taken Latin in several yrs.  His comment was that the Cambridge text reminded him more of SYRWTLLatin series vs. Wheelock's.  How accurate of an assessment that is though, I have no clue.  

1 hour ago, Faithr said:

Wheelock's goes much faster than Henle.  It is a college text vs. Henle which is an early 1950's high school text.  

Yes.  But as I stated up thread, I have a different view on learning languages.  If I was going to use a text like Henle's, I wouldn't do any Latin before it. (and tried with 3 kids but each time, Latin completely fizzled out.)  I do not relate to the long drawn out incremental exposure to learning Latin.  Wheelock's can be jumped into directly for a student who really wants to or definitely as a high school student.  My kids have started Latin in 6th/7th and Wheelock's just wasn't a good fit for them without a teacher (I don't really teach my kids Latin.  They learn it from the text and I go over it with them.) LP engaged them.  My dd who used Wheelock's  did so in either 8th or 9th grade (can't remember) and did it after 2 solid yrs of high school Latin grammar.  (She dropped Latin after poetry bc she wanted to focus more on French and Russian.)

FWIW, I think Wheelock's lines up pretty closely with the vocab of the NLE .  (LP does as well.  My kids had no problems with the NLE.)

[cintinative]

Just throwing this out as an idea of why people might choose Wheelock's:

Even though I am not using Wheelock's per se, I have the workbook, text, and reader, plus Udemy videos that cover the text.  Plus you can get answer keys from one of the authors and he has a blog/FB page.  There are tons of websites with quizzes and practice type activities relating to Wheelock's.  From a resource perspective, it seems relatively easy to find things to help you work through the material, or to get help from others when you get stuck.

Unfortunately I have no experience with Cambridge to compare it.

I wish I had talked to 8FilltheHeart before we began our extended Latin journey. I think her perspective on starting later really makes sense. 

 

[Faithr]

1 hour ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

 

Yes.  But as I stted up thread, I have a different view on learning languages.  If I was going to use a text like Henle's, I wouldn't do any Latin before it. (and tried with 3 kids but each time, Latin completely fizzled out.)  I do not relate to the long drawn out incremental exposure to learning Latin.  Wheelock's can be jumped into directly for a student who really wants to or definitely as a high school student.  My kids have started Latin in 6th/7th and Wheelock's just wasn't a good fit for them without a teacher (I don't really teach my kids Latin.  They learn it from the text and I go over it with them.) LP engaged them.  My dd who used Wheelock's  did so in either 8th or 9th grade (can't remember) and did it after 2 solid yrs of high school Latin grammar.  (She dropped Latin after poetry bc she wanted to focus more on French and Russian.)

FWIW, I think Wheelock's lines up pretty closely with the vocab of the NLE .  (LP does as well.  My kids had no problems with the NLE.)

If your kid did Wheelock's the NLE was probably easy peasy!  I'd say by the time you complete Wheelock's Ch 11 (I have an old 6th edition), you've learned more than you need for the NLE one.  Wheelock's is the gold standard.  I like it better than Cambridge which is funky when it comes to introducing grammar.  I just don't like the way it breaks it down into, to me anyway, incoherent chunks.  And it throws in tons of vocabulary.  You need lots of prep and teacher aids for it. Now some kids might love it because you are immersed a story and that might be what they need.  But to me it is kind of like the Suzuki music method.  Often when it comes time to really integrate the grammar, like having to suddenly learn to read notes, that's when the students get discouraged.   I just don't think it works well in the homeschool arena, unless you are taking an outside class.  If people want to wait to high school and their kids can dive right in to Wheelock's that's great.  I just think that for a lot of people that wouldn't work so well.  I agree that if you start Latin really young it becomes such a long out drag.  If you start Prima Latina and then move on from there and you are marching the kids through these workbooks year after year (and especially if you as the mom aren't really learning alongside of them) I think that is why Latin bites the dust a lot.  The OP of this thread wanted to start in 4th grade.  I've seen a lot of success doing gentle exposure up to 6th, then a gentle intro in 6th grade and then to me speeding up the process with Henle which actually moves faster than most high school (not college) level texts like Cambridge.  So you get the basic grammar done in 7th and 8th and then in 9th you are pretty much equivalent with what most high school consider AP.  To me that is going faster.  But everybody finds their own way.  I just found it exciting that these co-op kids, regular kids who didn't want to do homework for the most part, were actively winning against the best high schools around here (maybe I had 25 --30 kids in total over the years)  And it wasn't because I was a super great coach or anything remotely like that. I always felt super inadequate about that aspect.  No, it was the kids themselves and confidence they had from using a tried and true age appropriate method.  That was my conclusion anyway.  

A bell just went off!  Does LP stand for Lukeion Project???  Because I do know a family who used their classes and they absolutely loved it!  So yeah that is a definite other way to go!  

 

[8filltheheart]

I just looked at their course descriptions since I haven't had anyone take Latin 1 in several yrs. They took the NLE 1 after Latin Prep 1 and 2 (not Lukeion Project).  NLE 2 after SYRWTLLatin 2, and the NLE 3 (grammar level exam, not prose or poetry) after either SYRWTLLatin 3 plus Excelability in Advanced Latin (ds) or Wheelock (dd).  Those courses were taken in either 6th, 7th, 8th or 7th, 8th, 9th, or 8th, 9th,10th--depends on which student we are talking about.  These courses could equally be taken strictly in high school.

[RootAnn]

My dd#1 who is pretty good at picking up languages struggled through Henle 1 (using the MODG Henle-in-a-year syllabus, I think) after completing MP's Prima, LC1, FFL, SFL, and the first quarter or so of TFL. It was a slog. She dropped Latin after that but found Latin was a good grammar base when learning German & Russian. (She learned Spanish, too. Actually, it was so similar to Spanish that when she was first learning both at the same time, she was confusing some of the vocab & verbs.) So, while she would tell you she disliked Latin, she might also say she was glad I made her learn it.

FWIW, I'm putting off Latin with my ds#1 & ds#2 a bit longer. I don't know what I'm going to use with them, but ds#1 will be in 7th, at a minimum, before we use a Latin program.