Questions about AP classes vs. AP exams

[mlktwins]

I know I will be heavily researching high school and college all this year (rising 9th graders), and you all will probably get tired of my newbie questions, but I'm hoping I can post some questions throughout the year as I think of them.

So, I know for an AP class to count as AP, the syllabus needs to be approved by someone (??? LOL).  I also know AP exams are taken at schools and that sign-ups need to be by October or November now (???).  My boys aren't taking any AP classes in 9th, but I definitely want some on their transcripts and they will be capable of the work.  I have been keeping track of posts and on-line options for AP exams and am thinking about ones they may do in the future.  

Here are my questions:

Do kids need to take an AP class to take the AP exam?  From what I am learning, the answer is no, but they wouldn't get credit for an AP class if there isn't an approved syllabus?  In public school, honors and AP classes bump up GPA's???  Would this work the same way for a homeschooler?  So...they would do the coursework at home (study) and just take the exam?  I know 5 is the best and 4's and 5's are what colleges would be looking for?  What about 3's?  Would that hurt them in any way from a college admissions point of view?  Are they allowed to re-take them and, if so, would the old scores still show up (College Board)???  They just aced their yearly standardized test, but that isn't PSAT, SAT, or  AP exams!  They haven't tested at that level.

My neighborhood is currently zoned for a lower scoring high school, but it does have the IB program and that is supposed to be good.  They only offer one AP class there.  If we get rezoned to the school that is actually closer to us (3 miles), they have the AP Scholars program there.  It used to be a higher ranking school, but now it is #34 in the state.  Because it is an AP Scholar program, I'm guessing that is where many of the AP tests are given for my county.  Homeschoolers are allowed to take 2 classes at the high school per year, but it needs to be at their base school.  If we get re-zoned, we might be able to utilize their AP classes.  The downside of that would be having to be on their schedule and the quality of their classes.  They would still not be able to participate in sports or extracurricular activities at the school.  But...it would assure they would be able to take the AP exams there???

Anything else I need to be thinking about regarding AP classes/exams as I am researching?

Thanks so much for you patience :-) !!!

 

    

 

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

In my experience the AP Class and the AP Exam serve two different but linked purposes with regard to college admissions.

The AP Class: It can give a bump in GPA if you submit a weighted GPA. The AP class can be taken without taking the AP exam in some cases. Some instructors require their students to take the exam as part of the course. The AP class may only be listed on the transcript as an AP course if the instructor has submitted a syllabus to College Board's AP Course Audit process and been approved. As a home school instructor you may create and submit as many AP course syllabi for your students as you wish. Don't be afraid of this process, there are lots of ways this can be accomplished and homeschoolers have, in my experience, been successful in getting approval for multiple courses. In my opinion, the purpose/benefit of having an AP course on the transcript is to indicate a commonly understood level of work. Admissions departments are familiar with AP requirements and view them positively in terms of level of difficulty. AP courses can be helpful in meeting that nebulous admissions concept of pursuing the "most difficult course work your school offers."

The AP Exam: This can be done without having taking an AP course. Its main benefit is drawn from having achieved a top score (typically 4 or 5 but at some schools/for some subjects a 3 can also help) that allows the student to receive college credit or higher level placement when entering college. In my opinion the AP exam alone does not show that the student pursued high level course work over the school year, it show proficiency in a subject.  Showing proficiency in a subject can go a long way in verifying that grades in that subject on the transcript do not have a "mommy bias" but are true indicators of the students knowledge and performance. Be sure to begin the school year by looking for a school willing to give your child the exam. The experience varies by school district and sometimes even individual schools, seek local advice if possible.  I am of the opinion that taking the exam in conjunction with the course is the best of both worlds.  Also, for a few schools there is an expectation that a homeschool student will submit more standardized exam scores than just a SAT or ACT as part of their application packet in the fall of senior year. AP scores, along with SAT II and CLEP scores often fulfill that requirement. If you are considering a college that requires this be sure to plan ahead to have these scores as once senior year arrives it is nearly impossible to complete. It is my understanding you can retake an AP test the following year but that both scores would be reported.

AP/Honors grades and test scores: AP and Honors level courses typically bump up a GPA if you submit a weighted GPA. There are two types of GPA-weighted and unweighted. Different schools have different requirements for what they wish to see.  I prepared my kids' transcripts with both GPAs. I gave an explanation in the supplementary materials as to which courses were weighted and why. Usually it was for courses that I had submitted an AP syllabus, the outside provider had an AP designation or an outside provider had listed the course as honors or AP (or in one case as college level).  I chose not to submit any AP scores directly from College Board for my kids except for to the school they enrolled in, we never submitted scores without seeing them first (even though that was the more expensive option). If I considered the score high enough it was reported on the transcript.

Planning: Plan your testing location well ahead of time if you intend to include a test. Be sure you are doing the preparatory and background class work to support any AP classes you intend the kids to have. Don't be afraid to plan and submit your own AP syllabus.  IF it were to be returned you have the opportunity to edit and refine your syllabus to meet the objections of the reviewers and resubmit.

Best of luck and don't over think this, focus on providing a quality high school education with plenty of course work in the subjects they are interested in studying in college. If you do that then AP courses will fall into the mix somewhat naturally if you desire them.

[Miss Tick]

1 hour ago, JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst said:

If I considered the score high enough it was reported on the transcript

So does this mean that in theory your dc might have AP classes on their transcript but with no accompanying score?

This is part of my concern about AP classes. We have a couple of years of maturity ahead of us, but I'm not yet comfortable that my dc will be good high-stakes test takers. The other part of my concern is that the local school systems can be jerks. I can psyche myself over that when I need to. They do brag about the number of AP tests they administer.

[Miss Tick]

2 hours ago, mlktwins said:

Are they allowed to re-take them

AP exams only happen in the Spring, so the class material won't be very fresh if the re-take. A fallback position might be CLEP. Would SAT2 be another backup? I'm not sure how far ahead you have to schedule, and of course the tests aren't available for all subjects.

[Farrar]

In case you're not clear, you take the AP exam wherever they let you in to take the exam. Some schools kindly let homeschoolers take them, others don't. To some extent, this seems to be irrespective of what school you're zoned for. Also even what district you're in. Or even what state. I know homeschoolers in my not-a-state have taken exams across the state line at public schools there that were kind enough to let them take a seat. Some people pay a fee to get in. Some people travel a long way to get to a site for their AP exam. Your post implied that you felt you might be limited to the exams your zoned school offered, which is not the case. They might not even let you in for the exams they do offer. A school an hour away might let you take a dozen others. It's tricky to plan for many.

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, SusanC said:

So does this mean that in theory your dc might have AP classes on their transcript but with no accompanying score?

 

My oldest would have AP European History (we use AP course audit to get my syllabus approved and a tutor to help him with DBQs) without an AP exam score as we could not find a place (including late testing) to take it by the time we register. I can easily explain that in my counselor letter portion of college applications.  He is taking the SAT World History though in August so that he can get credit by exam for that. I am not worried for his case as he already has a few AP exam scores in 7th and 8th grade. 

[RootAnn]

3 hours ago, JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst said:

 It is my understanding you can retake an AP test the following year but that both scores would be reported.

I believe this is the case but it can be avoided by cancelling the lower score before sending any score report to a school. So, like Jumped said, don't take the free score report option. Wait to see those scores & then you can pay to send AP scores once when you are all done.

I think most colleges accept self-reported AP exam scores on applications. Whatever their final college choice is, they are who will need to get that AP score report the summer before Freshman year of college.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

On 6/11/2019 at 12:09 PM, SusanC said:

So does this mean that in theory your dc might have AP classes on their transcript but with no accompanying score?

This is part of my concern about AP classes. We have a couple of years of maturity ahead of us, but I'm not yet comfortable that my dc will be good high-stakes test takers. The other part of my concern is that the local school systems can be jerks. I can psyche myself over that when I need to. They do brag about the number of AP tests they administer.

 Yes, it absolutely does mean that. We also sent no "official" scores except to the schools where they enrolled.  Although, none of the schools they applied to required AP scores as part of the admissions process. If you think about it, many AP classes are only taken by seniors. During the admissions process they have not finished the course or taken the exam. Admissions decisions will already be out when they take those exams.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

23 hours ago, RootAnn said:

I believe this is the case but it can be avoided by cancelling the lower score before sending any score report to a school. So, like Jumped said, don't take the free score report option. Wait to see those scores & then you can pay to send AP scores once when you are all done.

I think most colleges accept self-reported AP exam scores on applications. Whatever their final college choice is, they are who will need to get that AP score report the summer before Freshman year of college.

I would also do your research, some of the college exams require you to cancel your score prior to seeing the score (IIRC). Be sure you know their timetable beforehand.

[daijobu]

On 6/11/2019 at 6:49 AM, mlktwins said:

So, I know for an AP class to count as AP, the syllabus needs to be approved by someone (??? LOL).  I also know AP exams are taken at schools and that sign-ups need to be by October or November now (???).  My boys aren't taking any AP classes in 9th, but I definitely want some on their transcripts and they will be capable of the work.  I have been keeping track of posts and on-line options for AP exams and am thinking about ones they may do in the future.  

Do kids need to take an AP class to take the AP exam?  From what I am learning, the answer is no, but they wouldn't get credit for an AP class if there isn't an approved syllabus?  In public school, honors and AP classes bump up GPA's???  Would this work the same way for a homeschooler?  So...they would do the coursework at home (study) and just take the

classes.  They would still not be able to participate in sports or extracurricular activities at the school.  But...it would assure they would be able to take the AP exams there???

 

    

 

 

"for an AP class to count as AP, the syllabus needs to be approved by someone"  Yes, technically in order for you to call it an AP class on your transcript, you need to be using a College Board approved syllabus.  Homeschoolers like to make a big deal about this.  But really, is there some sort of College Board Police detective that's viewing transcripts and then filing indictments against parents who are improperly calling their classes AP without getting their syllabi approved?  Of course not.  However, there are other reasons to get approval with the CB.  As an official CB teacher, you will have access to lots of old exams and other materials that will be great for your student's preparation.  (Although I wonder if much of that stuff is available from a google search anyway?)   If you select one of their pre-approved syllabi, then your approval should be automatic, more or less.  And you are not obligated to even use the syllabus you select.  Finally, there seems to be a bit of a change this year.  You may need to submit a letter indicating that you are teaching a class or some such, but it sounds like approval will still be automatic more or less.  

"AP exams are taken at schools and that sign-ups need to be by October or November now"  You are correct that this year they have moved up the deadline to register for AP exams.  It has always been a good idea to get an early start on securing an AP exam testing site, but it seems to be more important than ever for the 2019-20 school year.  Here are some tips for contacting schools:

1. Contact all schools, public and private, and after schooling centers, beginning with those closest to your home.
2. Tell them your student isn't enrolled, but that you "live in the neighborhood."
3. Tell them that your student is taking a College Board approved AP class.
4. Tell them that your student has taken standardized tests before (if true)
5. Tell them your student does not require accommodations (if true)
6. Tell them you are happy to pay any registration and proctoring fees.
7. Tell them you will be using your own school code, so your student's score will not be included in the host school's data.  

Be especially careful if your student is taking a less popular AP exam or a foreign language exam, as it seems those are harder to find a site for.  

"Do kids need to take an AP class to take the AP exam...the answer is no, but they wouldn't get credit for an AP class"   You are in charge of your homeschool.  You get to decide what classes your kids are taking and name them on your transcript.  Why not say your student is taking AP whatever, describe in the course descriptions, give extra points for the honors level GPA, etc.  

"But...it would assure they would be able to take the AP exams there"  You need to call the school and ask what their policy is, but I would be surprised if they didn't let you take the exam there if you are already taking the class there.  

What constitutes a good AP score depends on the colleges you are considering.  It really helped me when someone on this list schooled me on the 3  reasons for taking APs:  (1) college credit, (2) showing mastery of content in a way that's standardized for admissions officers, and (3) arriving on campus more or less as prepared as other highly prepared students.  (I'm thinking premeds here, but also true for other fields.)  

Good questions!   Keep asking as you continue your high school planning.  

 

[BakersDozen]

Quote

You are in charge of your homeschool.  You get to decide what classes your kids are taking and name them on your transcript.  Why not say your student is taking AP whatever, describe in the course descriptions, give extra points for the honors level GPA, etc.  

This is interesting...I have always strongly admonished parents to not do this very thing simply because it would be too easy for a student to take an "AP" class that is anything but and get the bonus GPA and impressive transcript. However, I live where there are absolutely no requirements/"checks" on home schoolers and the number of honors students with unbelievable GPAs/transcripts is really something. One mom said her daughter received Honors credit (despite coming out of the class with a very low C) because she worked hard. I think I'd rather there be strict standards/requirements for Honors and AP than the freedom to use these distinctions freely.

[daijobu]

1 hour ago, BakersDozen said:

This is interesting...I have always strongly admonished parents to not do this very thing simply because it would be too easy for a student to take an "AP" class that is anything but and get the bonus GPA and impressive transcript. However, I live where there are absolutely no requirements/"checks" on home schoolers and the number of honors students with unbelievable GPAs/transcripts is really something. One mom said her daughter received Honors credit (despite coming out of the class with a very low C) because she worked hard. I think I'd rather there be strict standards/requirements for Honors and AP than the freedom to use these distinctions freely.

 

Maybe I wrote incorrectly.  If your student is studying for an AP exam and then actually takes the AP exam, I would say they are taking an AP class, even if it is self-study.   If the topics covered are more or less the same as what you would find on a College Board approved syllabus, and the student doesn't take the AP exam...I'd say it might okay to call it an AP class, but it doesn't make much sense to me.  

I mean the whole point of AP is that it's more or less the same sort of class everywhere, and if it isn't it will show up in a student's score.  The AP score validates the rigor of the class.  If my dd earns a 4-5, then I think we can all agree that the material she studied during the year is at least comparable to an AP class at a regular school.  It isn't just my word, but outside validation.  

To your second point, if a student enrolled in regular school takes an honors course and earns a C, that's valid.  If the course is more difficult than a standard high school class, then I would call it honors level.  On my dd's transcript this was basically AP classes, AoPS classes, and anything that is considered college level.  

[daijobu]

I can attest that finding a site offering Physics C : E&M took a little legwork.  

[TarynB]

But AP and Advanced Placement are trademarked terms, owned by the College Board. Regardless of the opinion anyone may have about the College Board, that fact remains. And I've read here numerous times over the years that if a student takes a course (or self-studies) with a syllabus which has NOT been College Board-approved, one simply is not justified in labeling that course AP or Advanced Placement on the transcript. One could perhaps label it "Chemistry with AP Exam", but not "AP Chemistry". If the student ends up not taking the AP exam after completing the (non-approved) course, then " . . . with AP exam" doesn't go after the course name. There are no transcript police, but giving an inaccurate name to a course in order to give a student a GPA bump or to fit any other narrative just isn't playing by the rules. And if we as homeschoolers know this, I'd bet that folks in the college admissions/scholarship arena know that too.

Edited June 13, 2019 by TarynB

[Donna]

Another option you might consider if you don't think your dc will be good high-stakes test takers might be dual enrollment. My dd did one AP course and exam her freshman year and did well but once she turned 15 and was able to take DE in our area, we went the DE pathway. There were a number of personal factors that went into our decision but partially because she hated the stress of everything depending on one test. 

[Arcadia]

9 hours ago, TarynB said:

 There are no transcript police, but giving an inaccurate name to a course in order to give a student a GPA bump or to fit any other narrative just isn't playing by the rules. And if we as homeschoolers know this, I'd bet that folks in the college admissions/scholarship arena know that too.

 

Looks like it’s not hard for colleges to check if they want to.

“Until these courses are authorized or annually renewed through the AP Course Audit, they will not appear in the AP Course Ledger provided to colleges and universities” https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-course-audit/about/course-authorizations

The AP course ledger page (https://apcourseaudit.inflexion.org/ledger/search.php) is running slow for me right now so I can’t view all the AP courses PA Homeschoolers is approved for. 

[mlktwins]

Thank you all so much!  This is so very helpful and I have more questions, but I'm being forced to go see Godzilla .  And...I'm taking a bunch of teenage boys .  Hope I survive !!!

I'll be back tomorrow morning!!!

 

 

[daijobu]

7 hours ago, Arcadia said:

 

Looks like it’s not hard for colleges to check if they want to.

“Until these courses are authorized or annually renewed through the AP Course Audit, they will not appear in the AP Course Ledger provided to colleges and universities” https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-course-audit/about/course-authorizations

The AP course ledger page (https://apcourseaudit.inflexion.org/ledger/search.php) is running slow for me right now so I can’t view all the AP courses PA Homeschoolers is approved for. 

 

 

Well, that's interesting because I've been audited and approved by the College Board as an AP teacher for multiple courses, and I don't appear on this search for any of them:  (I cut out my city for privacy.)  

Meh, it's been super-easy in the past to obtain approval as an AP teacher, but it appears there's no way for colleges to really know if this is true.  

In contrast, I've heard there are regular schools that offer AP courses, but because enrolled students arrive under-prepared, they are designed for students to earn a 3 at best.   

Edited June 13, 2019 by daijobu

[Arcadia]

7 minutes ago, daijobu said:

Well, that's interesting because I've been audited and approved by the College Board as an AP teacher for multiple courses, and I don't appear on this search for any of them:  (I cut out my city for privacy.)  

Meh, it's been super-easy in the past to obtain approval as an AP teacher, but it appears there's no way for colleges to really know if this is true.  

 

My city search results shows 5 brick and mortar schools and UCScout; 4 public, 1 private and 1 private that caters to homeschoolers.

I did keep the AP course audit authorization email from CollegeBoard just in case.

[daijobu]

Yes, but I'm an CB-approved AP teacher for multiple, multiple subjects, and yet I'm not listed.  I just don't think this is set up for homeschoolers.  I'm guessing SIL and PAH are included because they have CEEB codes?    

This is moot for me because my students took their AP classes online from PAH and other approved vendors.  But I don't think there is any way one can easily determine whether a given homeschooling mom is CB-approved.    

I encourage homeschooling parents to do so because it unlocks lots of great practice materials to help prepare your student.  

[Farrar]

I would not feel comfortable using a trademarked name like AP on the transcript without permission especially since the CB has specifically forbidden this practice with their trademarked courses. If you want the bump, go through the approval process. I think it's possible that the website isn't set up to search for homeschool approvals, but that's beyond the point. We have a ton of freedom to shape our kids' transcripts and grades that I think we should totally exercise, but calling something AP when it's not been approved as AP is a step too far for me personally and something that I suspect could come back to bite someone.