Engineering and Grading on the curve, is this normal?

[cjzimmer1]

DS just transferred in our flagship state U in Chem E.  It's pretty competitive so getting in was huge but right now he's feeling pretty demoralized.  All of his classes are graded on a curve and they are telling him not to worry about his grades that will be decided at the end.  But when the TA announces, "Great news, the class average on this exam is 72%" or the professor tells you ahead of an exam, he expects the average will be around 60% etc and then you are below average, it's pretty hard to have any confidence that you are going to make it.  And there is no way to know in advance how much curving will take places at the end.  He's so frustrated, is he failing the classes?, barely passing? end up with a B?  Even his adviser says the transition is rough and they aren't surprised by poor results the first semester but he only has 2 semester to achieve a certain GPA or he is kicked out of the program.  But of course other than being below average (but not at the bottom either), he has absolutely no frame of reference of how he is doing.

I know engineering is hard but is it normal to not even being able to judge if you are passing the class half way through the term?

He says he actually feel like he understands the material but the tests are just leaving him scratching his head wondering what's going wrong.

By the way one of is classes is Organic Chem 2, which pretty much everyone I've ever known who has taken it says they hated.

[Frances]

I’d say the curving and low averages are normal, but I’m surprised they are not giving out more information after each exam, so that students have a better idea of where they stand. Has he gone and directly asked his professors for more information? Does his school have a database where students can look at grade distributions for previous terms with the same class/prof?

[wendyroo]

10 minutes ago, Frances said:

I’d say the curving and low averages are normal, but I’m surprised they are not giving out more information after each exam, so that students have a better idea of where they stand. Has he gone and directly asked his professors for more information? Does his school have a database where students can look at grade distributions for previous terms with the same class/prof?

I agree.

I studied engineering at MIT, and on one freshman physics test I got a 26% and I beat the average by a few points!  Many tests had a curve between 60 and 80%.

However, we always had a pretty good idea of where we stood.  After each exam they would announce the high score, the average and the standard deviation.

Wendy

[cjzimmer1]

They do give some information about the ranges and such but he's still not sure how to put that together.  The most recent in organic chem from the best I can remember.  The average was something like 54 and he got a 40, however there was one person who got a 92.  So if they bumped everyone up 8 points to make that 92 a perfect score, he'd still be at a 48 which by all normal metrics is still failing.  But even the average would be a 62 and that's still failing so I find it hard to believe that that many kids in the class are going to fail.  So will they bump it up more than taking the highest scorer to 100%?  That's the stuff he can't figure out.  He's been below average on most of the tests (but does quite well on the homework however they only count for a very small percentage of the total grade).  So if he is below average does that mean he is going to end up with D's and F's since C is typically considered average?  From what I've gathered even the TA's and professor don't know how much curve there will be because it depends on how the class as a whole ends up.  

He is a perfectionist who is used to getting A's (without a curve) and frankly he's pretty much convinced himself that he has already failed out of the program.  I keep encouraging him to talk to people, seek out help etc but he hates asking for help.  He did find a study partner for one of his classes so that's huge for him right there but he's still got 3 other classes to manage.

[daijobu]

Is organic chemistry still a premed requirement?  If so, he could be taking the class with a bunch of over-prepared pre-meds who are gunning for a high GPA.  If he's doing poorly he may want to drop the class and take it again another year if possible.  (I know lots of premeds do this to maintain a high gpa.)  

[Frances]

39 minutes ago, cjzimmer1 said:

They do give some information about the ranges and such but he's still not sure how to put that together.  The most recent in organic chem from the best I can remember.  The average was something like 54 and he got a 40, however there was one person who got a 92.  So if they bumped everyone up 8 points to make that 92 a perfect score, he'd still be at a 48 which by all normal metrics is still failing.  But even the average would be a 62 and that's still failing so I find it hard to believe that that many kids in the class are going to fail.  So will they bump it up more than taking the highest scorer to 100%?  That's the stuff he can't figure out.  He's been below average on most of the tests (but does quite well on the homework however they only count for a very small percentage of the total grade).  So if he is below average does that mean he is going to end up with D's and F's since C is typically considered average?  From what I've gathered even the TA's and professor don't know how much curve there will be because it depends on how the class as a whole ends up.  

He is a perfectionist who is used to getting A's (without a curve) and frankly he's pretty much convinced himself that he has already failed out of the program.  I keep encouraging him to talk to people, seek out help etc but he hates asking for help.  He did find a study partner for one of his classes so that's huge for him right there but he's still got 3 other classes to manage.

I think finding out what grade will likely be assigned to the average would be very helpful for him. For some classes it might be a C, for others a B. Looking at past grade distributions, if available, would be helpful for this if the profs won’t/can’t tell him. Also, if he were to seek out more help, he would likely find out more information about how others are doing or how particular profs grade. Even way back when I went to high school, I remember hearing that the key to surviving as an engineering major at our state flagship was joining study groups for every class.

Do they give the standard deviation in addition to the average for any of his classes? That can be helpful in figuring out how far below the average you really are. There are different ways to curve grades. Some will simply add so many points to every final score and do regular % grades. Others will look for natural breaks in the distribution and assign grades based on that. And there are other methods, too.

I hope things start looking up for him soon. I have a friend who almost failed his first year of a Chem E program, but ultimately ended up with a PhD in material science and a great career. But it was rough going for awhile.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Frances

[...................]

2 hours ago, cjzimmer1 said:

DS just transferred in our flagship state U in Chem E.  It's pretty competitive so getting in was huge but right now he's feeling pretty demoralized.  All of his classes are graded on a curve and they are telling him not to worry about his grades that will be decided at the end.  But when the TA announces, "Great news, the class average on this exam is 72%" or the professor tells you ahead of an exam, he expects the average will be around 60% etc and then you are below average, it's pretty hard to have any confidence that you are going to make it.  And there is no way to know in advance how much curving will take places at the end.  He's so frustrated, is he failing the classes?, barely passing? end up with a B?  Even his adviser says the transition is rough and they aren't surprised by poor results the first semester but he only has 2 semester to achieve a certain GPA or he is kicked out of the program.  But of course other than being below average (but not at the bottom either), he has absolutely no frame of reference of how he is doing.

I know engineering is hard but is it normal to not even being able to judge if you are passing the class half way through the term?

He says he actually feel like he understands the material but the tests are just leaving him scratching his head wondering what's going wrong.

By the way one of is classes is Organic Chem 2, which pretty much everyone I've ever known who has taken it says they hated.

 I don't have a lot of experience, but my ds is in Physics for Engineers 3 at the local (very highly rated and excellently funded) community college, and he still had no idea what his grade was till after midterms, either.  This prof doesn't give grades for homework and there are no quizzes.  His first exam was over a month ago and he just got his grade last week, just before the midterm.

But I would say this is an exception to the rule, and not the usual way of things.  

[cjzimmer1]

19 minutes ago, daijobu said:

Is organic chemistry still a premed requirement?  If so, he could be taking the class with a bunch of over-prepared pre-meds who are gunning for a high GPA.  If he's doing poorly he may want to drop the class and take it again another year if possible.  (I know lots of premeds do this to maintain a high gpa.)  

I have no idea but it wouldn't surprise me either way.  He did say there seemed to be a lot of non engineering majors in the class (there is about 300 students in this section) but I'm not sure the distribution among majors is likely to change much over time.  This is his second attempt at this class.  He took it at the CC he was at last spring but ended up withdrawing.  He wasn't doing great on the tests there either but the breaking point was the lab instructor (different from the lecture instructor) who was so militant that she would doc people for every little infraction.  Like if you showed up even 1 minute late to lab, automatic 20% reduction in grade for that lab.  Oh you were in a car accident on the way here and that's why you are late, too bad, you should have planned better to allow more time.  Oh you have a doctor's confirmation of having the flu, too bad, that's no excuse for missing lab.  Oh you didn't wash that beaker properly, I'll doc some points, etc.

So if he has to drop this class a second time (even though it's a different school), he's not sure how that will look.  He doesn't have a track record here so feels like he's on really shaky ground and has to prove himself.  It doesn't help that he doesn't have any "easy" classes left to take to help the GPA,  he has taken every single non-engineering class he needs for his degree already.

 

[Frances]

If not a study partner, would he consider a tutor? All types of students hire tutors. They are very common for classes like organic chemistry. And it’s likely the tutor probably already took the class and could give him insight into his current grades.

[cjzimmer1]

20 minutes ago, Frances said:

I think finding out what grade will likely be assigned to the average would be very helpful for him. For some classes it might be a C, for others a B. Looking at past grade distributions, if available, would be helpful for this if the profs won’t/can’t tell him. Also, if he were to seek out more help, he would likely find out more information about how others are doing or how particular profs grade. Even way back when I went to high school, I remember hearing that the key to surviving as an engineering major at our state flagship was joining study groups for every class.

Do they give the standard deviation in addition to the average for any of his classes? That can be helpful in figuring out how far below the average you really are. There are different ways to curve grades. Some will simply add so many points to every final score and do regular % grades. Others will look for natural breaks in the distribution and assign grades based on that. And there are other methods, too.

I hope things start looking up for him soon. I have a friend who almost failed his first year of a Chem E program, but ultimately ended up with a PhD in material science and a great career. But it was rough going for awhile.

I will tell him to see if he can find out more about past grade information.  Right now I'm trying to find anything that might encourage him a bit because I can see this is really a blow to him.

I know one of the classes has a study group that meets one afternoon a week but it's smack dab in the middle of his work hours so he's never able to go (due to driving/parking issues he has to allow an hour to get from work to school and about 40 minutes to get from school to work).  Much of what he does at work has time sensitive deadlines so he can only play with his hours just so much.  It's a "real" job with 401k matching, paid vacation, holiday time etc which is hard to find with a part time job and he loves the job so he doesn't want to lose it just because of school.  The job could also lead to a permanent job after school because they have a chem lab so keeping his foot in the door is a bonus as well.   So that is just another obstacle he has to deal with.  He has mentioned that the group stuff he is part of that the other students are all working/meeting on it during the day and not much at night or weekends so he's having a hard time really getting to even participate on that because they just go do it without him. But most of them seem to already know each other already but having spent at least 2 years together already that's not surprising and he's brand new so I guess I can see why they don't want to change things to accommodate him.

[cjzimmer1]

10 minutes ago, Frances said:

If not a study partner, would he consider a tutor? All types of students hire tutors. They are very common for classes like organic chemistry. And it’s likely the tutor probably already took the class and could give him insight into his current grades.

I've suggested that several times already but he's convinced he can't afford to hire a tutor.  I tried to point out it was still less than cost of having to repeat the semester but he was being bullheaded at that point so I'm not sure the message really got across.  I will try again when his mood is a little better.  Spring break is next week so I'm hoping the break will do him good and we can talk through things better when he isn't under so much pressure.

[cjzimmer1]

@Calming Tea @wendyroo @Frances

Thank you all for your encouraging words that this semester isn't completely lost and these kinds of grades don't necessarily signal complete failure.  Since I was never in engineering, I had no idea that scores that low could be considered "normal".

 

[Frances]

47 minutes ago, cjzimmer1 said:

I've suggested that several times already but he's convinced he can't afford to hire a tutor.  I tried to point out it was still less than cost of having to repeat the semester but he was being bullheaded at that point so I'm not sure the message really got across.  I will try again when his mood is a little better.  Spring break is next week so I'm hoping the break will do him good and we can talk through things better when he isn't under so much pressure.

I don’t know if it will help, but let him know that even A students sometimes hire tutors. Most people have stronger and weaker areas. And sometimes with a heavy course load, just having someone help to make studying as efficient as possible can be a big help.

[Frances]

57 minutes ago, cjzimmer1 said:

I will tell him to see if he can find out more about past grade information.  Right now I'm trying to find anything that might encourage him a bit because I can see this is really a blow to him.

I know one of the classes has a study group that meets one afternoon a week but it's smack dab in the middle of his work hours so he's never able to go (due to driving/parking issues he has to allow an hour to get from work to school and about 40 minutes to get from school to work).  Much of what he does at work has time sensitive deadlines so he can only play with his hours just so much.  It's a "real" job with 401k matching, paid vacation, holiday time etc which is hard to find with a part time job and he loves the job so he doesn't want to lose it just because of school.  The job could also lead to a permanent job after school because they have a chem lab so keeping his foot in the door is a bonus as well.   So that is just another obstacle he has to deal with.  He has mentioned that the group stuff he is part of that the other students are all working/meeting on it during the day and not much at night or weekends so he's having a hard time really getting to even participate on that because they just go do it without him. But most of them seem to already know each other already but having spent at least 2 years together already that's not surprising and he's brand new so I guess I can see why they don't want to change things to accommodate him.

That sounds like a tough situation with a day time job and being new to a program where many have been together for two years already. But his job sounds great, so I can see why he wants to stay with it. Is it possible for him to take one less course during the school year and then take summer classes, since he’s already finished all of the easy classes? Most universities teach orgo during the summer.

[daijobu]

I personally consider chemical engineering to be one of the most difficult majors, right up there with EE.  My local university describes it:

The Chemical Engineering BS program requires basic courses in biology, chemistry, engineering, mathematics and physics.

Unless there is a separate track for engineers, it sounds like your son will be taking bio and chem with the premeds, which is never a good thing.  Holding down a part time job while completing this challenging coursework is very impressive indeed.  

Regarding saving money in college...penny wise, pound foolish.  My DH ruined his GPA by not buying the textbook for a class in order to save money.  Later he looked at a copy and realized how helpful it would have been.  (All the answers were right there!)  Don't actively short change yourself because you can be sure that your colleagues/competitors won't.  

And as others have said, there is less grade inflation in the engineering schools, so don't sweat a low grade, especially in a lower level o-chem class.  Better to have worked closely with a professor and done some research so s/he'll recommend you for any jobs s/he hears about.

But do our kids ever listen to us?  

 

 

[daijobu]

I found this interesting page on life as a ChemE.  Sounds hard!

[cjzimmer1]

On 3/12/2019 at 10:31 PM, Frances said:

I don’t know if it will help, but let him know that even A students sometimes hire tutors. Most people have stronger and weaker areas. And sometimes with a heavy course load, just having someone help to make studying as efficient as possible can be a big help.

I tried that angle already.  I pointed out when I was in college, I tutored someone on one subject while I had someone else tutoring me in a different subject.  He was pretty contrary that night and pretty much shut down every suggestion I made.  I did discover that Khan Academy has some stuff on Organic Chem,  I don't know if it's for 1 or 2 but I mentioned it to him last night and he said he would look into.  Tonight is the second night, he's chosen to go off and study with someone for one of his other classes so I'm hopefully he is starting to see the light.  I'm grateful for every suggestion because it gives me ideas of things to present/suggest to him.  I especially liked your earlier comment about the way to survive is to find a study group for every class.  The guy he is studying with tonight is also in Organic Chem 2 except he's in a different section and that professor is teaching the topics in a completely different order than DS's professor is so they aren't able to work together.

On 3/12/2019 at 10:38 PM, Frances said:

That sounds like a tough situation with a day time job and being new to a program where many have been together for two years already. But his job sounds great, so I can see why he wants to stay with it. Is it possible for him to take one less course during the school year and then take summer classes, since he’s already finished all of the easy classes? Most universities teach orgo during the summer.

The major/school is so competitive they don't allow you to go part time without prior approval.  He's only got 13 credits this semester so he can't drop any lower.  Also he's goes on mission trips every summer (and this summer's is already paid for and non-refundable) so he's hoping to avoid summer classes if possible.

The more I talk about it, I realize he really does have a lot going on (he's got more than what I've listed even) and perhaps the wise course would be just to try to convince him to let go of some of his other commitments.  Even though I don't think it's a case of lack of study time as much of lack of knowledge of how to effectively study but if he opens his schedule more it might make it easier to find time to connect with people who can share how they study and he might just learn something from that.

Edited March 18, 2019 by cjzimmer1

[cjzimmer1]

21 minutes ago, daijobu said:

 

Unless there is a separate track for engineers, it sounds like your son will be taking bio and chem with the premeds, which is never a good thing.  Holding down a part time job while completing this challenging coursework is very impressive indeed.  

Regarding saving money in college...penny wise, pound foolish.  My DH ruined his GPA by not buying the textbook for a class in order to save money.  Later he looked at a copy and realized how helpful it would have been.  (All the answers were right there!)  Don't actively short change yourself because you can be sure that your colleagues/competitors won't.  

And as others have said, there is less grade inflation in the engineering schools, so don't sweat a low grade, especially in a lower level o-chem class.  Better to have worked closely with a professor and done some research so s/he'll recommend you for any jobs s/he hears about.

But do our kids ever listen to us?  

 

 

I agree about the money side, I will try and keep nudging him on the tutor.  I do feel his study skills are lacking because everything has been so easy for him (even the 2 1/2 years at CC were pretty easy, he actually worked full time his last semester there as a full time student and still had time for playing games)

DS is pretty good about talking to me, listening is another matter probably 50/50 so it could be worse but he can get bullheaded and when he digs in because "he knows he's right", then I know it's time to just walk away.  But this issue is too important so I have to keep working around the edges and take my openings when I can.

[cjzimmer1]

31 minutes ago, daijobu said:

I found this interesting page on life as a ChemE.  Sounds hard!

Thanks for linking that, it was an interesting read.  And yes it does sound like DS, math and chemistry, his 2 favorite subjects.  Hopefully he will be able to hold it together enough to enjoy the other side of it.

[EKS]

13 hours ago, cjzimmer1 said:

I know engineering is hard but is it normal to not even being able to judge if you are passing the class half way through the term?

That has been a common experience for my kid.  Also, I had to adjust my expectations regarding what a good grade is.  Now I'm happy with a C (because that's passing).

[Clemsondana]

I wasn't an engineer (I was in biochemistry) but that was totally normal for almost all classes in my major.  We had some faculty explain that they liked to have a large grade distribution, but to get that they needed to make tests hard or very long so that everybody didn't cluster at a 90.  It's a different philosophy from what I use when I design tests (which is 'meet a certain standard and you get an A'), but it's common.   Averages were typically in the 50s, but ranged from the 20s to the 80s.  If you consistently scored above the average, you knew that you at least had a B, but other than that, we had no idea what our final grade would be.  I also had to adjust to thinking that it's about the learning, not about the grade - even with a B or C, you know a lot more at the end of the semester than at the start.

[catz]

I got a BS math and BS comp sci through an engineering college at a flagship U.  Not unusual in my experience at all.  Definitely had tests with averages below 50%.  Probably half the incoming class left or changed majors by the end of the 2nd year.  

[GoodGrief]

My electrical engineering daughter's classes seem to go that way too. She really doesn't know until grades come out at the end of the semester. However, one thing I emphasize to my daughters is the importance of communication with profs/TAs (whatever makes sense for the class structure.) It shows interest in learning the subject and gives you a better idea if you are truly "getting it".

[Bootsie]

I would encourage him to see exactly what information he does know about the range of grades on the first exam.  A mean average grade provides little information.  A mean grade of 50 on an exam, for example, could be that one person in the class made a "100", one person made a "0" and everyone else made a "50".  Or it could be that half of the class made a "10" and half the class made a "90".  Does he know either the median score or the standard deviation of scores?  Or, does he have a distribution of scores, such as "5 people scored between 80 and 89..." ?  This will let him know how he is doing relative to the peers in his class.

To evaluate his situation regarding this major, he also needs to find out information regarding the past grade distribution for this class (this is info is provided at some schools) and what number of students go on in this major--are the number of slots limited?

 

[cjzimmer1]

I talked to DS about the different metrics that many of you mentioned and I guess he has been getting some of that information.  Either he didn't share it with me or it went completely over my head (I never took stats and even after having it explained to me I don't really "get" it).  But for one class he said he was within one standard deviation of (something can't remember what he said).  I had to ask if that was good or not and he said it was ok, that he thought he would pass.  The O Chem test that he had this week (the one with the 40), the teacher is letting everyone make corrections over spring break.  The professor is newish and still getting a handle on how difficult to make the tests.  Professor realized the test was too hard/long for the allotted time and apologized to the class for that and thus is allowing the corrections.

He was frustrated with his Analytical Chem test because one question was worth 26% of the grade and they had to diagram piece of equipment that was discussed in only one lecture.  He was nearly flawless on the rest of the exam but since there hadn't really been any emphasis on that lecture, he looked over the notes but didn't memorize all the parts of the equipment.  He drew part of it but didn't get any credit for it.

If you don't have a certain GPA after 2 semesters supposedly you will be dropped from the program.  I'm hoping that whoever makes that decision will look beyond just the number and consider the classes he his taking.  The GPA is only calculated on classes taken at the university and he will not have a single general ed class, not a single "easy" science class, nothing that is likely to help balance out his GPA.  He has 3 chem classes and 1 engineering class this semester.  I believe he has one more chem class and after that every single class he needs in straight engineering.  

He had straight A's (or a 5 on the AP) in Calc 1, Calc 2, Calc 3, Differential Equations, Chem 1, Chem 2, Physics 1 and a B in Physics 2 and Organic Chem 1.  Not to mention all the A's and AB's in his generals.  However, none of those grades from his 86 transfer credits will count towards his GPA. If they did his overall GPA would look very different.  So it's just going to be a wait a see both on grades for this semester and if he makes it through that then whether they will let him stay in the program.

Edited March 18, 2019 by cjzimmer1

[Frances]

A 3.5 after two semesters for engineering seems very harsh. I’m struggling to understand the reasoning behind such a requirement. For my son’s STEM major, a 3.5 in all classes required for the major was one of the requirements for graduating with honors in the major. 

[cjzimmer1]

42 minutes ago, Frances said:

A 3.5 after two semesters for engineering seems very harsh. I’m struggling to understand the reasoning behind such a requirement. For my son’s STEM major, a 3.5 in all classes required for the major was one of the requirements for graduating with honors in the major. 

The 3.5 is their published policy.  Since the majority of their slots are filled by students who are taking all 4 years there, their GPA's will include the those general ed and "easier" classes so maintaining a 3.5 probably isn't too bad for a dedicated student.  They only accept transfer students for as many people who have been dropped.  So if they admit 100 freshman and by sophomore year there are only 80 left, they will accept 20 transfer students at the sophomore level.  DS is coming in as a junior (not sure if he's considered first semester or second semester).  By this stage of the game not many are dropping out, hence why he was 1 of only 2 accepted.  But it puts him at a disadvantage on the GPA side.  His advisor mentioned something about the GPA early in the semester but we are hoping they will be able to consider the level of his classes because it's pretty unlikely he can maintain that number with only engineering classes.  The good news is since so many here have reassured both me and him that his grades are somewhat normal, he's a little calmer now and we are trying to brainstorm what else he could/should be doing to see if he can make the second half better.  He is not a people person so everytime I suggest he ask someone something, he stresses because he would happily go through life talking to about 5 people total.  Obviously this is a completely different skill he needs to work on but I'm trying not to pile on him about this aspect when he's already struggling with the grades aspect (seeing a 50 when you are perfectionist who is use to always getting 90+ is emotionally difficult even if it's completely normal in the context of the subject matter).

[TheReader]

Just chiming in to say my son is in the exact same boat (transferred in, in the spring no less, as a junior, direct into his major, Elec. Eng., at our states flagship school). It's kicking his behind, honestly. Everything I've read from a parent's group on FB for his school is that, 1, *everyone* uses tutors for *everything.* As in, there are gobs of outside tutoring services, and they sell blocks of time/group sessions for the main classes -- kids go and buy the time/session for their full schedule the minute they have registered, before even the first day of class. Because they just know they'll need it. 

2, over and over and over I'm reading of panicked "I'm failing out..." posts at midterm......and they pass with a C or above at the end, due to the curve. 

So far only one of DS's classes has given what the curve will be; after the first test, it was stated it would be a 12 point bracket instead of 10 point, so A = 100 to 88; B = 87 to 75; C = 74 to 62; D = 61 to 49; F = 48 and below. (this was for his Physics for Engineers class). None of the rest have said what the curve might be, and I'm not sure if they've said the class averages on the tests or not. He's working closely with one professor, who I have to believe would let him know if he was doing so badly as to need to Q-drop, but who just keeps saying "keep coming to see me." So, while he has done horrible on the test(s) so far, I'm holding out hope that the prof knows the curve will work in his favor and he'll be okay.  He's finally agreed to meet with the TA for another class, when the TA reached out to him (I am beyond thankful for that....), and again, I have to assume if there was NO hope, surely they'd be mentioning that, ya know? 

Anyway, prayers for your boy; it's hard, for sure. Mine is the same way, not wanting to ask for help, etc. Hopefully they both start listening to us and doing what needs doing.