I kinda want a different church

[Liz CA]

42 minutes ago, marbel said:

 But people walked out feeling good about themselves, which I guess was the aim. 

The 'brainiac' churches - to borrow SC's phrase above - are full of people with deep theological knowledge. I have known many pastors and "regular" members who have had their own tragedies in life and who can understand deep faith struggles and welcome the opportunity to help people. 

 

What an interesting observation about seeker churches. Our church seems to be turning into one with the change of pastor. It leaves me wondering if we really should leave services thinking how wonderful we are or was it better when we left church realizing there was work to be done in ourselves.

And what happens after people have been attending a seeker church for a while? How do they graduate to deeper waters? They have to change churches? Or do some people remain at this level of "superficial" because it feels good?

Edited December 24, 2018 by Liz CA

[PeachyDoodle]

25 minutes ago, Liz CA said:

 

What an interesting observation about seeker churches. Our church seems to be turning into one with the change of pastor. It leaves me wondering if we really should leave services thinking how wonderful we are or was it better when we left church realizing there was work to be done in ourselves.

And what happens after people have been attending a seeker church for a while? How do they graduate to deeper waters? They have to change churches? Or do some people remain at this level of "superficial" because it feels good?

Seeker-driven churches often have, IME, back doors that are as busy as the front doors. Which is why they have to continue to work so hard to bring in new faces. And to raise money -- that model of church is extremely expensive.

IMO, one should leave services having been reminded that Christ bled and died for them and forgives them all their sins. 

[marbel]

22 minutes ago, PeachyDoodle said:

<snip>

IMO, one should leave services having been reminded that Christ bled and died for them and forgives them all their sins. 

Agreed. Everyone should walk out knowing that. But to me the best sermons, the ones that leave me thinking, poke a little bit too. 

FWIW, I am used to a time of confession of sin - usually a written prayer everyone reads in unison, then a moment or two of silent confession, followed by assurance of forgiveness. The seeker-friendly churches I have been to do not mention sin.  There's no confession, no acknowledgment of it at all. 

[Carol in Cal.]

14 hours ago, forty-two said:

That's one of the things I really appreciate about our new church - the midweek lay-lead Bible study studies actual books of the Bible, using a study guide that goes reasonably in-depth (and that is actually faithful to our doctrine).  I semi-jokingly told my dh that this Bible study has the least amount of heresy of any I've been in :shifty:.  (It's also coed, but I think a women's group run the same way would be good, too.)  It also is set up so that you really need to have done the homework, so people come prepared, and that adds to the informed depth of the discussion.

The proverbial 'they' are finally publishing women's Bible studies that are not fluffy.

"Ruth:  More Than A Love Story" is a good one (by Elizabeth Ahlman, an LCMS deaconess.)

She wrote another good one, also--"Demystifying the Proverbs 31 Woman".

The LWML has a good DVD based one called "Your Strong Suit"--about the armor of God.

I much prefer those over the lipstick and coffee ones.

[Carol in Cal.]

Quill, 

I do get it.  I hate that impersonality feeling in huge churches, and I do think that having and airing and focussing on a lot of doubts would be disruptive and ultimately prevent forming good friendships in a small group setting.

I have to say, if you go talk to a Lutheran pastor from my experience there is a really mixed bag of results you could expect.  Some would take a spiritual counsellor kind of approach, helping you find the truth.  Some, though, would take a psychological approach, and some would tend to belittle the problem.  It's not a bad idea to try it, but be aware that there are big differences in how pastors deal with this kind of thing.  I have the impression that the idea of a 'spiritual director' is more common in the Anglican church, and you might do better there.  Or not.  It is so hard to say.  (My apologies to the pastors' wives here.  I know that some pastors are absolutely fantastic at this, but it DOES vary.)

Really, I think that it sounds like you need to piece together your spiritual nourishment a bit; that 'one stop shopping' is not going to work for you this exact minute.  Hopefully that will be temporary.  I think that it is spiritually important to commit to a specific body of Christians, but it sounds like that is not going to happen immediately, and that is certainly a trial.  The suggestion upthread to visit the Lutheran church monthly makes a lot of sense to me for now.  And if you want to talk with someone about your doubts, pray for that person to be revealed to you in parallel.

when I ended up leaving my Big Lutheran Church (kind of with a megachurch feel to me) for a medium sized, intimate one, I did not  ask my husband to do the same.  I just told him, this is what I have to do, and I will come to church with you whenever you go.  He went to the 11AM or maybe 11:30 AM service at our old church, and not every week.  So I would go to my new church, services at 10 with choir practice at 9:30, and if he was going to church himself I would stay at mine through the singing of the anthem and then dash over to meet him at his.  If he did not go to church, I would stay throughout my own service.  This lasted about 18 months, and then he decided to transfer as well.  It was not entirely easy, but I was *so* happy at the new one (which sounds like the one you have visited) that it was entirely worth it.  

 

[Liz CA]

36 minutes ago, marbel said:

Agreed. Everyone should walk out knowing that. But to me the best sermons, the ones that leave me thinking, poke a little bit too. 

FWIW, I am used to a time of confession of sin - usually a written prayer everyone reads in unison, then a moment or two of silent confession, followed by assurance of forgiveness. The seeker-friendly churches I have been to do not mention sin.  There's no confession, no acknowledgment of it at all. 

 

Yes, maybe because sin would point to not being all that perfect and interfere with that "good" feeling. This is what I meant about being reminded that work continues to be done. I will never be perfect but I cannot stop working on growth - or I should not.

[forty-two]

8 hours ago, Quill said:

I don’t know if anything like that is available at my church. I think there’s an expectation if you have questions, you go to one of the classes meant for the burned, the broken, or those who are new to the faith. Those groups are led by “regular people,” not theologians. I don’t think that would help. 

Our senior pastor is not very accessible. He’s like a rock star one might glimpse near the water-fountains sometimes. 😏 There are a couple of Associate pastors whom I believe would be mentally prepared for my questions; I just don’t know if they do that. This is another way in which I feel like the big church makes me feel like an unknown nobody. 

<hugs> In my not-so-humble opinion, the associate pastors certainly *ought* to do that.  I mean, I get that in a large church the senior pastor simply can't provide pastoral care to all the members - that's why they *have* associate pastors in the first place.  But no matter how huge a church is, providing one-on-one pastoral care is a core, fundamental, non-negotiable part of the church's mission.  It's one thing to have lay volunteers to *help* with the pastoral load; it's another thing entirely to offload all pastoral care onto lay volunteers - that's just not right.  I really loathe the model where the pastors train the volunteers to care for the parishioners, but the pastors don't actually do any of the pastoral care themselves.  Parishioners *ought* to care for each other, but that doesn't *replace* pastoral care (just as pastoral care doesn't replace parishioners caring for each other).

I recommend asking, though I know it's easier said than done.  FWIW, I definitely 100% think it's a totally legit thing to ask - people *ought* to be able to have one-on-one discussions with their pastor.  If for whatever reason it doesn't work to ask at your church, then I'd definitely recommend asking at the Lutheran church.

[Liz CA]

11 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Quill, 

Really, I think that it sounds like you need to piece together your spiritual nourishment a bit; that 'one stop shopping' is not going to work for you this exact minute.  Hopefully that will be temporary.  I think that it is spiritually important to commit to a specific body of Christians, but it sounds like that is not going to happen immediately, and that is certainly a trial.  The suggestion upthread to visit the Lutheran church monthly makes a lot of sense to me for now.  And if you want to talk with someone about your doubts, pray for that person to be revealed to you in parallel.

 

 

I agree that "piece-mealing" is sometimes necessary for a season or two. God knows you are searching and He may indeed provide different sources from which you can draw. We are attending a small group right now and have not settled on a new church. We had been attending for 7 years and with a pastor change came a change in goals, services and many more things were done away with - replaced with other "activities." 

[PrincessMommy]

hugs..  I haven't read all the responses, but it doesn't sound like you want advice necessarily.    Believe it or not-  before you know it your 14yr old will be older and you won't necessarily have to feel so chained to the big mega church.   

Can you go to the Lutheran church for Christmas morning services?   Most liturgical churches will have Christmas morning services.   I know for a lot of people not used to that, it would be a big shift in Christmas morning plans... so it might not work for you.

I hope you find a workable solution soon though.  I've been in the limbo place before where my wants & needs did not work with what the kids/husband wanted/needed.  

[Carol in Cal.]

26 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

hugs..  I haven't read all the responses, but it doesn't sound like you want advice necessarily.    Believe it or not-  before you know it your 14yr old will be older and you won't necessarily have to feel so chained to the big mega church.   

Can you go to the Lutheran church for Christmas morning services?   Most liturgical churches will have Christmas morning services.   I know for a lot of people not used to that, it would be a big shift in Christmas morning plans... so it might not work for you.

I hope you find a workable solution soon though.  I've been in the limbo place before where my wants & needs did not work with what the kids/husband wanted/needed.  

Or actually, the Christmas Eve services are often extremely beautiful.  I look forward to mine all year, literally.

[Carol in Cal.]

Hey, Quill, you know, faith is not only belief or a set of beliefs.  It is also a basic trust in God.  Through all the things.  Even through not knowing exactly how to believe.  

The man who prayed, "Lord, I believe.  Help Thou my unbelief," received the answer he hoped for to his prayer.  Sometimes that is very encouraging to consider.

There are things that we won't thoroughly understand this side of heaven.  And we are not alone in that.  Paul was inspired to write, "But now we see darkly, like in a polished metal mirror, but then we shall see in full, and know as we are known."  

Hugs to you, my friend.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Liz CA said:

 

What an interesting observation about seeker churches. Our church seems to be turning into one with the change of pastor. It leaves me wondering if we really should leave services thinking how wonderful we are or was it better when we left church realizing there was work to be done in ourselves.

And what happens after people have been attending a seeker church for a while? How do they graduate to deeper waters? They have to change churches? Or do some people remain at this level of "superficial" because it feels good?

I can tell you, the model for how it is intended to go is this: seeker comes to the church, seeker isn’t weirded out or put off by condemnation and brimstone, seeker accepts the faith and joins a small group OR seeker takes the “give us your questions” classes and, presumably either accepts the faith or goes elsewhere. That is the model for how they wade into deeper waters. 

I’m sure there are lots of congregants who just don’t wade into deeper waters; I can’t say it’s not part of why I am there myself. When I came to that church to begin with, I didn’t want anyone bothering me. So I guess I got what I wanted, but now I don’t really want what I got. Heh. 

Edited December 24, 2018 by Quill

[Garga]

My family is in the process of church shopping.  We thought we found one right out of the gate.  We started going to this new one around Easter...but by Halloween I was having doubts about whether I really like it or not.  Blah.  It would be one thing if it was just me, but DH and the kids have opinions and needs, too.

If you decide to go somewhere else, attend for many, many months before you conclusively say, “THIS is the one!” 

I used to go to a teeny tiny church (for about 20 years) where individual people can call out prayer requests and say what ‘God did for them this week’, and have been at a big church (for 15 years).  They both have their pros and cons.  Over time, you’ll figure out what the pros and cons are of a little church and be able to decide if you really like it or not.

Edited December 24, 2018 by Garga

[PrincessMommy]

36 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Or actually, the Christmas Eve services are often extremely beautiful.  I look forward to mine all year, literally.

Oh yes, our Christmas Eve service is beautiful.  It's definitely worth it to find a more traditional church for Christmas Eve too.  I remember our former Charismatic Church just didn't cut it for Christmas Eve or Easter, even back when we were fully on board with that type of worship.    But it sounded like Quill had already had plans to go to the Mega-church for Christmas Eve.

[Carol in Cal.]

8 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

Oh yes, our Christmas Eve service is beautiful.  It's definitely worth it to find a more traditional church for Christmas Eve too.  I remember our former Charismatic Church just didn't cut it for Christmas Eve or Easter, even back when we were fully on board with that type of worship.    But it sounded like Quill had already had plans to go to the Mega-church for Christmas Eve.

Oh, I missed that.

[Carol in Cal.]

9 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

Oh yes, our Christmas Eve service is beautiful.  It's definitely worth it to find a more traditional church for Christmas Eve too.  I remember our former Charismatic Church just didn't cut it for Christmas Eve or Easter, even back when we were fully on board with that type of worship.    But it sounded like Quill had already had plans to go to the Mega-church for Christmas Eve.

I just remembered the absolute last straw that made me jump to the new church.  I went to church on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day and they had changed the words to all the traditional Christmas carols.  That doesn't sound like much, but as the end of a long string of actually much more serious things, it kind of sealed everything for me.  They just couldn't ever leave anything alone, and that meant no consistency to raise DD in (I was pregnant at the time) which also meant not being able to teach by example to look forward to church, because it would always be unpredictable.  I waited a couple of weeks to make sure I was going to stick to the decision, and then visited the old church's pastor (who I respect and am seriously still friends with) to tell him I was leaving, and then went to the new church to apply for the transfer.  As it turned out my first service in the new church as a member was Ash Wednesday, which has been a joyful day for me ever since.  I was home.

[Free Indeed]

Your topic is very timely for me. We have been at the same church and raised our children in this small church for the last 13 years. My husband likes the men and is plugged in- my daughters and I are over the women’s drama and the “everyone knows everything” atmosphere. I was just thinking a bigger church would be nice- but not sure now reading the responses. I just keep praying God will let us know what to do. 

[marbel]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

I can tell you, the model for how it is intended to go is this: seeker comes to the church, seeker isn’t weirded out or put off by condemnation and brimstone, seeker accepts the faith and joins a small group OR seeker takes the “give us your questions” classes and, presumably either accepts the faith or goes elsewhere. That is the model for how they wade into deeper waters. 

I’m sure there are lots of congregants who just don’t wade into deeper waters; I can’t say it’s not part of why I am there myself. When I came to that church to begin with, I didn’t want anyone bothering me. So I guess I got what I wanted, but now I don’t really want what I got. Heh. 

 

Interesting. The seeker-friendly churches I have been to have shown a complete lack of condemnation and brimstone to the point that sin is not mentioned at all.  

Not that I think condemnation and brimstone are good things, just that is not an element of any seeker-friendly church I have ever been in or heard of before this thread. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, marbel said:

 

Interesting. The seeker-friendly churches I have been to have shown a complete lack of condemnation and brimstone to the point that sin is not mentioned at all.  

Not that I think condemnation and brimstone are good things, just that is not an element of any seeker-friendly church I have ever been in or heard of before this thread. 

That isn’t the case with this church, but I have been in a church like that before. The chuch with the bagels was almost deistic and barely could be called Christian at all. They usually didn’t even say “Christian.” They said, “follower of Christ”. 

I’m not bashing, though. That church was a short while after my baby died and I could not bear any of it. I wanted to go somewhere spiritual and extremely gentle. I literally wanted the opposite of what I’m saying here now, because I did not want anyone to know my tragic story. It served that purpose.

[G5052]

We go to a small church that has undergone a lot of change in the last 3-4 years. Prior to that I was reluctant to recommend it to people and stayed with it because DH was raised in that type of church. 

I'm hooked now though. They really look out for each other, and the teaching is just getting better and better.

Just to say that sometimes what you thought wasn't good will get better. A friend of mine recently changed churches and is going to one that she visited some years ago and didn't like. Now she likes it.

Edited December 25, 2018 by G5052

[Lecka]

I think on one hand it is a major consideration that your 14-year-old is doing well in your current church.

I spent years trying to make churches work that didn’t really work great for me, but that had good children’s programs and I thought would appeal more to my husband.

Then two moves ago I gave up on that.  I looked for a church that would be good for me, and a good atmosphere for my kids.

We don’t go to churches with much children’s programming.

However, my kids are known by name by every adult at church.  There are several adults who go out of their way to talk to my kids and ask them to help with things.  

When I went to churches with nice children’s programs, I always hated that ———— as much as I tried it seemed like nobody knew who my kids were besides kids their age and parents of kids their age.  

I went to church as a child where my grandmother and her friends went to church, and I was always a kid who had a lot of people at church eager to see and talk to me.

I have got that for my kids now, but I have only gotten that by going to smaller churches without many kids.  But it matters more to me than having a thriving children’s program.  

However — my oldest son does not care a lot for church and I have thought about trying to switch for him, at various times.

I think if a church was working for my kids I would stick it out, if I could.  If I was waking up on Sunday not wanting to go — no.  But short of that I would prioritize my kids, I think.  But you never know, maybe your son would thrive in a smaller congregation.  I don’t know if you are at a point of discussing it with your son or husband, but I think your son is old enough to have some thoughts, and they might not be what you would guess.  It’s hard to know without asking.