“Growth Mindset” related thoughts and wwyd

[Pen]

I have been thinking about the growth mindset issue more.  Both as related to myself and to my son . 

I was a person raised with fixed mindset ideas and communication to a destructive degree as I experienced my own life.   Not just an attitude that said if one could not hit a homerun the first time one tried baseball, one was permanently hopeless at baseball, but generalized to obviously permanently hopeless at all team and ball sports, for example.   

Yet, if I were included in a study/test such as the underlying study referred to in Moved On’s thread, I might have been statistically used to show *benefits* of fixed mindset because I was a straight A or close student with very high scores on SAT, GRE or equivalent type standardized testing.  Grades and standardized testing is what the study was using to determine if Growth Mindset interventions were helpful.  I think it very possible that if I had had more Growth Mindset instilled, my grades may well have gone down, but my happiness and irl successfulness in my own experience of that would probably have gone up. My learning itself may have gone up, even though my grades may have gone down.  

 

 

It is also clear to me that Growth Mindset versus Fixed Mindset has been critical in my son’s being able to move through his dyslexia reading problems into being able to read. 

Moreover, I think that problems my son is now having, for example moving toward being able to drive, are coming from a Fixed Mindset or perhaps even a Learned Helplessness attitude (for example, having failed the Learner Permit test once, he is afraid to continue to study —and to try different approaches to studying—and to try again). 

And at this time in a number of areas, I don’t seem to be succeeding at helping him move out of his Fixed or Learned Helpless Mindset feelings into more Growth Mindset.  

Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Wwyd?

 

[KathyBC]

I can relate. I'm going to send you a message.

Basically, I suspect you can't do more than what you are doing, and that you're going to have to let him have some time to come to terms with trying again. Life will probably give him opportunity to see how much he needs to do this, it just sucks for you in the interim.

[PeterPan]

Honestly, I haven't read any studies on GM and don't care, because, as you say, these people run studies and pick things to look at and things to ignore and set themselves up for answers. I am on a bunch of math groups on FB that build on the GM foundation, and they're really intriguing to me, both for what they do well and for what the teachers recognize they don't do so well. I think as long as you recognize the good from GM and the pitfalls of taking it too far, you're fine.

It's also possible to lose some precision on what you're talking about in situations. For instance, you're saying fixed mindset, but I think we can take that farther and talk about cognitive rigidity, anxiety, EF deficits, struggling with multi-processing (flexible vs. rigid processing of inputs), etc. So ANYONE, with our or without EF deficits, would benefit from the positive thought process of GM, sure. Once you add in the EF deficits, you're talking about a mainstream thing (GM) that helps plus maybe wanting some more terminology and precision so you can target more why it's happening. Maybe that surface level GM stuff isn't going to get you all the way to where you want to be. Maybe that's why it was happening in reading AND driving AND other life areas, because it was reflecting EF issues. 

So maybe a slight tweak in terms for what is happening with his driving would help lead you to better answers? You're right that it's fixed mindset (GM), but you could take it farther into the EF realm and get more approaches. 

I'm not one to preach on how to problem solve. I run these kind of hard things by our behaviorist. I think sometimes that's the right call, moving on to a professional, when the mainstream, more general solutions aren't working. You're on the right track, but for us we've needed some help to work on that.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

l.  In my dc generation, they use the video game analogy:  what does it take to level up?

 

I’ll try that language to see if it can get through to him. 

What other language might appeal to a teen boy , I wonder?

[Pen]

I probably have to just slip something in without being too obvious about it.  

As his mom I  may be at low ebb of influence at this stage in teen boyhood    He is at rebellion from parental authority stage which is developmentally important  

He’s been a runner and we are in Prefontaine -land, but I don’t Know if I’d be able to use that “Don’t waste the gift” phrase    There was an Eddie the Eagle thing about just “participating” and the Nike “just do it” (which I sometimes use for self-motivation, and even though it may sound trite, it often gets me going) ...  right now though ds isn’t in a sport this season so maybe a sport slogan would not be a good idea  since there were some bad feelings about no sport this season  

He is very into Avengers and similar movies. I wonder if there are Marvel movie type sayings that could work. I think I’ll google that. 

I looked at his online current grades a few minutes ago, and he has listed right now all A’s with one A+.  And looks like so far he has kept on top of doing all his work and getting it tuned in, which is huge for him. (He has tended to have a combination of A in work done and a lot of zeros for work undone or lost before being turned in).  

Even  better is that he has a favorite academic class right now.  I am truly very impressed with his start to this school year. And tremendously happy that he is actually liking an academic subject. I wonder if I could use Level Up or other language out of video gaming to praise efforts made. 

[PeterPan]

I've been looking at Marine slogans, because ds likes all things military. I guess if he likes Avengers, you could have a response like "What would Thor do?" I'm totally not into that, lol, but I'm just saying it would be the right way. Someone stands in your way, crush 'em. Opposition comes up, make a new way. I don't know, haven't seen the movies. But it seems like it would work, lol.

[Pen]

Or “What would Steve Rogers do?” Or, “What would Phil Coulson do?”  If perhaps using a more human “superhero” example would help.  

 

 

 

 

[Pen]

does “You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take” Sound motivating or like it is negative?

[RootAnn]

My kids are Marvel fans. Eldest says to use Thor's "He's never fought me." "Yes, he has." "He's never fought me twice." 

The whole scene is good. Thor is completely beaten down, but he figures he can't get any lower. He has nothing left.

 

[Heathermomster]

23 hours ago, Pen said:

I have been thinking about the growth mindset issue more.  Both as related to myself and to my son . 

I was a person raised with fixed mindset ideas and communication to a destructive degree as I experienced my own life.   Not just an attitude that said if one could not hit a homerun the first time one tried baseball, one was permanently hopeless at baseball, but generalized to obviously permanently hopeless at all team and ball sports, for example.   

Yet, if I were included in a study/test such as the underlying study referred to in Moved On’s thread, I might have been statistically used to show *benefits* of fixed mindset because I was a straight A or close student with very high scores on SAT, GRE or equivalent type standardized testing.  Grades and standardized testing is what the study was using to determine if Growth Mindset interventions were helpful.  I think it very possible that if I had had more Growth Mindset instilled, my grades may well have gone down, but my happiness and irl successfulness in my own experience of that would probably have gone up. My learning itself may have gone up, even though my grades may have gone down.  

It is also clear to me that Growth Mindset versus Fixed Mindset has been critical in my son’s being able to move through his dyslexia reading problems into being able to read. 

Moreover, I think that problems my son is now having, for example moving toward being able to drive, are coming from a Fixed Mindset or perhaps even a Learned Helplessness attitude (for example, having failed the Learner Permit test once, he is afraid to continue to study —and to try different approaches to studying—and to try again). 

And at this time in a number of areas, I don’t seem to be succeeding at helping him move out of his Fixed or Learned Helpless Mindset feelings into more Growth Mindset.  

Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Wwyd?

 

5

As a single mom, you are at an extreme disadvantage.  Are you a member of a religious community?  Does he have any positive male role models that will happily come alongside him and model mature behavior?

My son was very motivated to get a license.  BTW, he failed the written test the first time.  Son was able to review his mistakes and retake the written test immediately.  I think there was always the expectation that DS would get his license and it was a proud moment for him.  The fact that he failed the first written exam was annoying to me but laughable to others.  Basically, it wasn't a big deal that he failed that test the first time around.  

I feel like if your child wants a license, he will get it when he is good and ready.  Stop driving him places if it is too much for you.  Once he has sat awhile and decided he is bored, he will find the motivation to learn.  In the meantime, stay positive and willing to teach him once he changes his mind.      

Edited September 17, 2018 by Heathermomster

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Heathermomster said:

As a single mom, you are at an extreme disadvantage.  Are you a member of a religious community?  Does he have any positive male role models that will happily come alongside him and model mature behavior?

 

Not male role models that seem to help  at this stage. 

Quote

My son was very motivated to get a license.  BTW, he failed the written test the first time.  Son was able to review his mistakes and retake the written test immediately. 

 

The written  test here is now computerized and gives immediate feedback after each wrong answer. However it also stops as soon as enough wrong answers are given to be a fail — and that happened for Ds fairly soon. They aren’t allowed to be retake immediately. 

Ds refused a bunch of things that are standardly available to anyone now, such as headphones so that the words on the screen are aural as well as visual. And also an audio version of the dmv manual. 

It is a much harder test than it used to be, I think, with a lot that requires memorizing.

Exact footage distance before ___ to stop. Things that become a matter of feel in actual driving.

Plus several missed early, involved rules regarding light rail or trolley cars which we don’t have locally, so he has never seen it irl. Or relatively new to this area things like metered entrance to highway which he has seen irl, but hadn’t paid attention to.

For things we do have in our area I have been trying to point them out as we encounter them, and also to check rules when I have not been sure.

Oregon has some oddities like yellow curb =no parking, whereas other USA states I have had experience in or been licensed, it was red curb=no parking. This is not so much of a problem for ds because he has seen that there is no parking at yellow curb for years.  But there are other oddities he has never seen irl, and where observations derived  from movies or books are wrong for the rules in our state. 

Quote

I think there was always the expectation that DS would get his license and it was a proud moment for him.  The fact that he failed the first written exam was annoying to me but laughable to others.  Basically, it wasn't a big deal that he failed that test the first time around.  

 I think Ds especially lost confidence because the computer calculates a total score based on the first answers and Ds got around 20%—not even close to a pass. Whereas on a couple of online practice tests he had passed, and thought he would pass or at least get close to a pass on the real test. 

Quote

 

I feel like if your child wants a license, he will get it when he is good and ready.

 

I’m not sure. Maybe.

Or maybe that is like the idea of to wait on reading and he will be able to when he is ready. 

Quote

 

  Stop driving him places if it is too much for you.  Once he has sat awhile and decided he is bored, he will find the motivation to learn.  In the meantime, stay positive and willing to teach him once he changes his mind.      

 

That is largely what I am doing. Or at least trying to do ?.  

He may find the motivation as classmates start getting their licenses and he is still without his permit. Or he may just go into more of a defeatist attitude about it. I guess time will tell. 

 

The Learner Permit is an example, and there are also other things similar.  We need a High Noon like program for a variety of things irl at this time. 

As to driving itself we could go with an electric bike and him living in city with public transit—so there are work around to driving  

But there is a more general issue of a need for less discouragement when confronted by a FAIL  —First Attempt In Learning  — situation.

A need for more Grit. 

[Garga]

My son is studying for the learner’s permit. He’s using a free app for our state.  Does your state have an app?  Most of the kids I know studied by using the app.  It’s easier than reading through a book or pdf.  

My son turned 16 last Wednesday.  I was the one who, until then, would tell him to set aside time every day to study.  I was prepared to wake up and take him to the DMV first thing on Wednesday morning.  But he wasn’t very interested.  He didn’t feel he was ready. Honestly, I was disappointed and wondered why he didn’t take it on himself to study harder.  I told him to study for 15 minutes a day and thought, “surely he’ll study more because he’ll be motifated!”  Nope.  I don’t know why he doesn’t seem to care about this milestone.  But I have to set my feelings aside. So I told him that now that he’s 16 it’s up to him to figure out when to study (I said this pleasantly), and he’ll need to let me know when he wants to take the test.

I’m a bit tired of forcing teens to do things that they’re supposed to be excited about.  If they’re not excited, I can’t make them be.

That doesn’t really answer your question, though, I know.  I’m just saying that teens can be difficult because sometimes they’re just not excited/motivated about things you’d think they would be, and it feels ridiculous to try to force them to be at this stage.  

I like what someone said—after a while, stop driving him places if it’s at all possible.  Like, my son plays D&D with friends who live a half mile away.  If he doesn’t want to get permits and learn to drive, I can stop driving him to the friend’s house and he can walk.  This only works if you live somewhere where he can walk to places.

And honestly, if you’re really concerned about a growth/fixed mindset, I’d get the book about it and make reading it part of the school day.  You can read a chapter a day out loud if he has reading issues (sounded above like he might.)  At this point, he’s old enough to hear it the same way any adult hears of things: by reading the material directly and not having mom try to explain it to him.  You can flat out say, “Billy, this book seems to be something that you and I both can learn from.”  Insteady of trying to jolly him into a growth mindset without him understanding why you’re doing it, just lay the cards on the table and provide him with the book, as you would for someone who was 35 or 55 and struggling with the same thing.

 

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Garga

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Garga said:

My son is studying for the learner’s permit. He’s using a free app for our state.  Does your state have an app?  Most of the kids I know studied by using the app.  It’s easier than reading through a book or pdf.  

 

We don’t have an official study app put out by state. My son used an online app put out by some other entity, and that gave him scores that made it seem like he could pass the real test, but the real test was much harder.  

Quote

 

My son turned 16 last Wednesday.  I was the one who, until then, would tell him to set aside time every day to study.  I was prepared to wake up and take him to the DMV first thing on Wednesday morning.  But he wasn’t very interested.  He didn’t feel he was ready. Honestly, I was disappointed and wondered why he didn’t take it on himself to study harder.  I told him to study for 15 minutes a day and thought, “surely he’ll study more because he’ll be motifated!”  Nope.  I don’t know why he doesn’t seem to care about this milestone.

 

I have gotten the feeling that maybe driving is not as much a milestone right now as it was when I was a teen.  

Quote

.  But I have to set my feelings aside. So I told him that now that he’s 16 it’s up to him to figure out when to study (I said this pleasantly), and he’ll need to let me know when he wants to take the test.

I’m a bit tired of forcing teens to do things that they’re supposed to be excited about.  If they’re not excited, I can’t make them be.

 

Similar here  — both feelings and what I said  

 

Quote

 

That doesn’t really answer your question, though, I know.  I’m just saying that teens can be difficult because sometimes they’re just not excited/motivated about things you’d think they would be, and it feels ridiculous to try to force them to be at this stage.  

I like what someone said—after a while, stop driving him places if it’s at all possible

 

That’s already happened. He is in brick and mortar school. He is taking the school bus. No sports this trimester.  Sports required a lot of me driving. 

Quote

.  Like, my son plays D&D with friends who live a half mile away.  If he doesn’t want to get permits and learn to drive, I can stop driving him to the friend’s house and he can walk.  This only works if you live somewhere where he can walk to places.

 

He can bike  if necessary even though we are rural. Biking distance to the school. The next time he will need me to drive him will be in a couple of weeks for a homecoming event too late to safely bike. 

Quote

 

And honestly, if you’re really concerned about a growth/fixed mindset, I’d get the book about it and make reading it part of the school day.  

He isn’t homeschooling this year.

But his English teacherhas assigned some essays related to Growth Mindset as required reading. 

When younger ds did learn quite a lot about how neurons develop stronger connections as they are used, and similar related knowledge as part of homeschooling.

That was clearly helpful.   I will try to remind him  about that.

I have been asking him to tell me about the GM related things he is reading in school for my own knowledge  

 

Thanks for sharing and it helps to know of similar situations with other teens  

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Pen

[Pen]

2 hours ago, RootAnn said:

My kids are Marvel fans. Eldest says to use Thor's "He's never fought me." "Yes, he has." "He's never fought me twice." 

The whole scene is good. Thor is completely beaten down, but he figures he can't get any lower. He has nothing left.

 

 

I remember the sceneand liked the line, but am not sure how to actually use it irl.  

Son:  It’s hopeless. There’s no point studying. I’ll never be able to pass. 

Me:  ___________

[Pen]

1 minute ago, Pen said:

 

I remember the sceneand liked the line, but am not sure how to actually use it irl.  

Son:  It’s hopeless. There’s no point studying. I’ll never be able to pass. 

Me:  ___________

 

Seems like maybe to say something about FAIL stands for First Attempt In Learning could fit though. 

 

Or maybe what the ancient one said to Dr Strange which I would have to find quote, but it was about seeing his possibility  

 

Or even maybe “Kick names, Take ass” or “More power, Rabbit “.  from Infinityy Wars  

 

?????

 

A select few words would be better than something that seems like a lecture  

 

 

[Pen]

2 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

negative

---------

 

replies For "It's hopeless, no matter how much i study I won't pass"....

....if you want to , you will (say this in a tone that expresses confidence that he will pass; if he bites just say you know he has the ability, but its his choice to put the work in.  He will fail if he wants to, or he will pass if he wants to).

...no response (don't take the bait)

...son, do you know how to eat an elephant? ( one bite at a time...I got your back, bud; want me to quiz you after we have dessert?)

 

 

I plan to try “ Son, do you know how to eat an elephant?”  In fact I now eagerly await an opportunity to use it! 

[Arcadia]

Regarding the learners permit exam, how long ago did he fail his first attempt? My brother failed three times before passing. He is not tne kind to study immediately after he know he failed. It takes him about a week to get over being sad and start applying for a retest date and to study for it. Some people pick themselves up immediately, some need time to mope.

My husband and I took the basic theory and advanced theory exams in our home country when we were 17. I didn't study and passed first attempt. He studied like people here would for an AP exam. So both of us put in different amount of effort to pass and the major difference I could think of is that I took a lot of car rides (different aunts and cousins chauffeuring and many cab rides) in my childhood days and is used to the traffic rules while my husband walked or took public transport. 

My husband took the theory test in California after driving here for more than 8 months on an international drivers permit. He found the test tricky but easy and didn't have to study as hard for it.

My kids has relied on public transport since they were less than a month old because I don’t drive. They don’t have any incentive to drive since my husband’s employer pays for his Uber and Lyft rides for work. DS13 didn’t put in much effort into tennis until he felt interested in the sport. So DS13 had a growth mindset for tennis but no motivation. He can be a good runner but the interest isn't there so he is not going to push himself to run faster than my friend who is a regular marathon participant.

Ironically I have a growth mindset when it comes to learning but I give the minimum required to get As for exams that I need As for. My dad would say I am not putting full effort and I would be telling him that there are other things I want to do instead of getting 100%. My husband on the other hand focused on scores because his parents wanted him to qualify for scholarships. My MIL would remind him that he is the unplanned child and so he has to fend for himself because they didn't budget for him.  So my husband was a no risk exam cramer and only get to learn stuff because he wants to learn in US. Now that DS13 is in 9th grade, my husband is starting to have his old do and learn things to get into college mentality (because we are asians and he is worried DS13 isn’t good enough compared to other asians). My husband was telling DS13 how to answer college admissions interviews according to what my husband read online (they really sound like contrite textbooks answers). Luckily my husband is in R&D and not marketing. 

DS13 is a night owl and today said he felt better health wise when I enforced a 9pm bedtime when my husband was on an overseas trip for two weeks. He now wants to reset his sleepimg hours to be 9pm to 9am. We’ll see how it goes but he is now willing to own the issue and work towards a sleep schedule that doesn't make him feel tired the next day. He tends to sleep from 1am to 12noon and he says he doesn't feel as rested as when I got him to rest in bed at 9pm even if he takes a long time to fall asleep.

[Pen]

7 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Regarding the learners permit exam, how long ago did he fail his first attempt? My bro

 

I don’t recall exactly. Months. Last Spring maybe. I think the regular school year was still in session  

 

 

[Pen]

3 hours ago, HeighHo said:

posing the question  'son, are you taking your advice from people who are successful ?'

 

I like that one, thank you!

Quote

Best thing we did was sports.  Coach is widely respected in our community and he puts scholarship and behavior over accomplishment.  It makes a huge impact when a talented kid has to sit out a season for poor choices. 

I tended to think this was so, both help from the coaches and teammates, as Ds was in Cross Country the past 2 years at this time of year.

This year the only fall sport he wanted to do was American football. So there became 5 or so issues

Regardless of sport:

1) that I think/felt that school work and chores come first;

2) that he often seemed genuinely too tired to do school work (let alone any chores help) on top of after school sports .  And the daily time commitment was causing a great deal of stress;

3) last year the track coach put him out running in a sleet storm and some other things like that happened which led to Ds getting sick and missing a ton of school; and though he passed sports physical does not seem completely over that even now.

American Football specific

3) that he is likely to be the kid hurt if he plays football—our little rural team only has Varsity no JV, and doesn’t  have dedicated place kickers etc. where a small lightweight thin boned kid might be okay. everyone does whatever is needed.  Ds  is small and light. He was an ice figure skater, which doesn’t have the macho popularity he craves, but he is built small and light like a typical male figure ice skater.  .

At most high schools Ds simply would not make the team    Our school needs bodies so anyone can make the team if they pass the sports physical  

4) that if hurt our insurance is pretty poor to cover cost of injury care, even assuming a reasonably minor football type injury.  

5) And Ds very likely has had prior minor concussions.  Really does not need another. When I read the posts by the person whose dd was injured in a horse riding accident I am reminded of this. 

Quote

 If you can't do the driving, is there someone that could?  Or another way? 

 

If he were consistently doing school work, helping out on clean up at home, not complaining that he is too tired to walk the dog, and willing to do a sport other than football, I would drive him.  If part of those were met, he could bike or get a ride from a friend. 

Quote

This opportunity is worth it, as it develops the student and gives positive outlets for energy.  Also he'll get referrals for jobs if he wants to work off season....at least in our community.

I don’t think the jobs part applies here. 

Quote

 

Also mentioned was mom influence.  Yes, normal to rebel against authority, but if you are using authoritative parenting, you will see healthy independence emerge.  Your influence is still there...but you don't have the reins.  Yes, mistakes will be made, but they'll think back to what they've learned from you as they grow and make the next set of choices.

Is there driver's ed class?  Usually the instructors go over the details.

 

Alas, no driver’s ed class.

They (local dc) have to pass the test for Learner Permit. Then they can join an after school Behind the Wheel class held at a big high school in the city. 

When I was at his stage, drivers ed was a required class, 5 days per week for a semester. I wish it were available for him. 

[Arcadia]

1) drivers ed. It’s lonely studying for the learners permit test a second time. Anyone he can buddy up with? 

2) regarding the sleet storm, I would be on the lookout for bronchitis or pneumonia given that your son seems to have lingering effects.

3) my DS13 isn’t physically fit. His recovery time is that he can’t do anything 30mins after his 2hr tennis practice other than sit around and drink water (or any other liquids, can’t eat). So he has an hour downtime after tennis which includes eating dinner and checking emails).  Depending on how long a downtime your son need to recover, if it is too long I would look into medical or nutrition issue like HeighHo suggested. My kids get a free wellbaby every two years and the out of pocket is low on the non-free year for our insurance coverage. Some insurance covers yearly checkups for kids.

4) regarding being small and light. Besides track and field, is canoeing available as a sport? Might not have the macho effect but many of my male classmates (high school and college) who made it into the national level dragonboat and canoeing team were small and light. They were around my height of 1.57m (5’ 2”) and slightly over 100lbs. 

Fencing is another sport that might be suitable for small and light. The fencing champions in my college dorm were all slim build (probably by coincidence) and many are in medical school. No fear of injuries there. 

[Pen]

3 hours ago, HeighHo said:

In m very large district, anyone can join track or xc; however only the top so many can go to away meets. Usually those who aren't fit drop out as they can't do the practices w/out walking before the season is over. The sleet storm should not have mattered; we often see runners of all ages out in the weather dressed for it. High school often practices when it snows or rains lightly. 

 

More on weather below. Aside from illness etc issues, Ds is an excellent runner. He has been in top 10 for a Pacific NorthWest event as a middle schooler, and made all-district though not all-state. He was moved to the Varsity team in 9th grade, because JV was not challenging him. Though I think he preferred running JV and having a chance to win as compared to being very challenged on Varsity. 

3 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

It sounds like there is a medical or nutrition issue going on that needs to be resolved before anything else.  He shouldn't be exhausted in the evening after xc practice, a shower, and dinner. 

Possibly so.  They have to get up very early for school though in our rural area. I am truly not sure there ends up being enough sleep time for a teenager. 

3 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

Perhaps he'd be willing to negotiate on joining spring track after resolving the health issue and figuring out how to schedule track practice and study time in to his day.

 

That would be good, I think. 

3 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

There is no driver's ed at the school here; its up to the family to find and pay for a class. Its several hundred dollars, so most don't bother. 

 

We unfortunately don’t seem to have classes available at all, paid or not, below Behind-the-Wheel level. Behind-the-Wheel does have to be paid for privately, but seems clearly worth while to me.

 

Weather:

We are in Pacific Northwest with rain and so on frequent through 8 months of year—running in light, medium, or heavy rain is common.  Snow locally is not common, and schools and thus sports practices usually close for snow locally 

 However, the very cold ice conditions last year were not common for our area (or only common in the way a hurricane is common to southeast).  Ds did not have wet icy weather suitable running gear at that time, and was not wearing the most suitable things he did have.   (He probably is far better equipped *now* following that lesson, including a waterproof dry sack backpack and so forth that I got after the event.)

The most severe weather issue of the season was at a meet in or toward the Cascade mountains. Ds got about the worst of it because weather was wettest and iciest as sleet shifted to hail and back to sleet during his  5K event, for which he had on only skimpy shorts and a sleeveless team jersey.

He now has long sleeve shirts and leggings he can wear under shorts and jerseys, but didn’t then, or did but wasn’t wearing them.

After getting ice pelted and soaked in his race, there was then no covered changing place, no fully dry stuff to change into (because there wasn’t a covered bleachers area apparently); then time sitting in wet cold during other events, and a several hour ride back in an Unheated drafty bus.  Many teams did not even go, and imo ours should not have—but in part it got into the problem due to being far away and having left for the meet before the weather turned nasty.

Fortunately, imo, The superintendent called them to leave the meet early because snow and ice was closing roads.  We parents were getting calls to get to our local school to pick up our kids the moment the bus arrived because the driver and coaches were also worried about not getting home before roads became impassible  

The XC team runs on our road for some practices and appears to me to have far fewer kids on it now  

 

 

[Pen]

How long a day,  from getting up out of bed, through end of day at brick and mortar school + sports practice or meets after school + shower + dinner + homework would you all expect a teen to be able to manage consistently? 

Do you expect them to get any “downtime” Monday-Friday?

[Pen]

13 hours ago, HeighHo said:

Away meets and invitationals are always challenging since they are outside so long.  I think my kid learned how to dress for and change in poor weather in scouts; it really helped most for spring track with cold winds and  long, long meets & end of season for XC. Same for what to bring for hydration and food.   We don't have unheated busses but body heat and motion help a lot if they have enough food available. 

High school day:  8-9 hrs sleep, 10.5 away for school/practice, 0.5 music practice, 0.5 shower/dinner, 1 hw/study  2 downtime  Assume study hall plus time used wisely while at school.  Most students have a 2 hr ec during the school week - church, scouts, 4H, drama, or volunteering.  Bus routes are capped at one hour max, first students on usually snooze.  Too exhausted to do anything after sports practice is not common. 

 

I can see places where a lot more time is taken in our home and could be shortened— though not sure we could get shower and dinner down to .5 hour total.  Wow !  Here it is more like 1.5 hours And getting ready in AM takes some time here too. 

Practice days would be away 10.5-11 hours for school plus practice, so that’s close to same for us. But he has no study hall this year  — and probably won’t next year either  

I expect that in-class time (and out of class time too) is not used as wisely or efficiently as it could be.  There is lots of room for improvement    Ideas for that welcome  

However, even if time use improved,  I’m still not sure of general feasibility:

 I think the too much part is perhaps largely due to Meet days.  Last track season had 1 schoolday meet per week on average plus some weekends.  The return home is not till around 9-11PM (was even later a few times) .  Often after a meet he is tired, but also wound up and can’t get to sleep right after a shower.  

They also had a few  1 and 2 night overnight-trip weekend meets . 

Another meet day problem is that usually their departure for meet is at lunchtime so that English 10,  Algebra 2, and Spanish 2 would be missed and work from them need to be figured out and made up on his own.  

Thus each meet puts him behind on both sleep time and in core subject class work. 

I know student athletes must figure out how to handle this and often have even more sports travel, especially if they become college athletes.  but Ds and I have certainly not figured it out!  

[Pen]

 

@Heigh Ho

A lot of good ideas! Thank you!

Also a lot of growing he’d need to do to get there— overcoming fear or unwillingness to ask the guys on the team what they do, and to ask classmates and teachers for information about school work, copies of class notes etc is still something he needs to master. 

I know from some of his teachers that even accepting help when they go out of their way to offer it to him it is hard for him.  Or he will say he is “fine” when he is lost (academically speaking).   

The girls volleyball and basketball teams are known for doing schoolwork together on bus to and from meets etc.  But when the boy athletes get their schoolwork done seems to be more of a mystery, at least to Ds.  Again I know there is some resistance to asking for help that is hurting ds.  For example the track teams include some older boys who are very good at math—past calculus— and also are nice boys: they offered to help ds anytime they could  (which probably includes during travel to meets)—but he wouldn’t accept the offer.  

 

What is an FL deck?

[Arcadia]

If he doesn’t like to get help from people he knows (teachers, schoolmates) due to pride, is there a tutoring club (ETA: not school based) run by volunteers he can go to? 

Yesterday evening I was at an open house (non-profit) that is recruiting volunteers from 8th to 12th grade. The brick and mortar high schoolers there were very familiar with Canvas, Schoology and almost all the class notes and assignments are posted there. It helps the students from missing homework assignments and test dates due to illness or sports meets. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Arcadia

[Pen]

Online he could. I don’t know how good it would be, but it exists via a public library.  But so far, he won’t do that either...Yet.  

However a Growth step came this morning. After complaining about my reminders (coaxing, nagging, whatever) about getting schoolwork done from 7th grade up until yesterday, this morning son asked me to remind him more because he has gotten behind.

Apparently he just reached a new maturity level to be able to appreciate a reminder.  And request them. 

When I remind him this afternoon I will also remind him that he asked me for the reminder. 

[Pen]

I found   “FAIL = First Attempt In Learning” 

On a motivational mug, but also some others with motivational sayings. 

Any thoughts on Motivational Mugs?  (T-shirts would not be used, but mugs probably would.)

I liked one that said:

 

“Life is like a camera

Focus on what’s important,

develop from the negatives

Capture the good times,

and if things don’t work out, 

take another shot.”

 

also one with quotes from Dr Seuss

”With your head full of Brains,  and your shoes full of feet, you’re too smart to go down any not so good Street.”

[Arcadia]

Would he like motivation fridge magnets or bookmarks. My kids enjoy reading them at Barnes & Nobles. DS12 likes bookmarks but DS13 doesn’t. Both like fridge magnets and they keep raiding the fridge anyway so they look at my reminder board (white board with magnetic backing which is stuck to my freezer compartment door) very often.

[Pen]

27 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Would he like motivation fridge magnets or bookmarks. My kids enjoy reading them at Barnes & Nobles. DS12 likes bookmarks but DS13 doesn’t. Both like fridge magnets and they keep raiding the fridge anyway so they look at my reminder board (white board with magnetic backing which is stuck to my freezer compartment door) very often.

 

Magnets maybe. 

[KathyBC]

I hung a bulletin board over the coat hooks at the front door. I print off pretty versions of motivational quotes (like "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take") I find free on the internet, then change them up from time to time. I've gotten dd on board, telling her she can hang anything she wants up there too. I wouldn't necessarily pick some of the stuff she does, but it's a nice little way to get some of that stuff in there.

ETA: Another fave is that Winston Churchill quote: "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts."

Edited September 19, 2018 by KathyBC