Music Practice Frustrations

[djkapp]

Does anyone else struggle with music practice sessions? I have five children -- ages 11 - 17. They are all gifted musically (not prodigies by any stretch of the imagination, but talented). The three girls (14, 15, and 17) all play piano reasonably well but have chosen to focus on their second instruments, and I have allowed them to drop piano instruction. Each of them practices 1 - 1-1/2 hours daily. No problems there!

 

Now the difficulty-- my two boys (11, almost 13) have been given piano instruction and instruction in a second instrument (violin and cello). I gave up on piano because I was getting so much resistance to practicing two instruments. Now I'm getting equally as much resistance to practicing one instrument. Because I am paying for private instruction, sitting through weekly lessons to take notes and be able to help with practice, etc, I expect good practice to take place. I regularly listen to their practice sessions to help them with practice techniques, give feedback, etc. I try very hard to be positive, but each suggestion is met with resistance. Neither boy is outright rude, (we typically do not have much rebellious or ugly behavior in our home) but the tension and resentment is palpable.

 

My husband is to the point of taking away music instruments from the boys entirely. No lessons, no playing, nothing--- until they realize what they've given up. I'm afraid that they'll never go back to the music again.

 

Suggestions anyone!!! I'll take any thoughts, criticisms, suggestions that are out there!!!!

 

Yvonne

[T Baer]

would get overwhelmed thinking he had to practice for a 'half an hour". Depending on how many pieces he has to practice will determine the amount of minutes per piece. He actually practices more totally this way. I usually lean towards adding the extra minute to get over the 30 minute mark.

[KAR120C]

So unless you really don't mind them dropping it altogether I don't know that I'd go that route!

 

But maybe you could let them be a little more "in charge" of their own practicing... Maybe they'd prefer some space? I know with my own DS, he'll work hard at flute as long as it takes to get it the way he likes, but if I were as involved as it sounds like you are he would probably bristle at what he'd take to be criticism. I'm very sparing with my suggestions for that reason, and sometimes it means he goes to his lesson with a glaring error that the teacher calls him on (that I could have pointed out...) but it always works out in the end, and I think he likes "owning" that whole pursuit. So the whole of my involvement beyong paying (LOL) is that I drive him to lessons and I yell "sounds good!" from the other end of the house at frequent intervals. ;)

 

I'm sure it's different with different kids -- and actually DS is different with different areas... he doesn't mind my being involved in things in general, it's just flute that he really likes to direct himself. But it might be a compromise for you --not giving up altogether but not continuing the way it is now. kwim?

[Hoggirl]

I am almost hesitant to respond for fear that I will come across as overly critical. Given your boys ages, they need to "own" responsibility for their music. All of it. May I ask why you sit in on their lessons and take notes for them? IMO, knowing what to do during their practice time is their responsibility. Our teacher does keep a notebook and writes down specific things for my ds to work on during the week, but she certainly doesn't write down EVERYTHING! He has to listen to what she says, and then HE has to take the initiative to DO it.

 

I say this with all humility. My ds is also 11 and he has studied piano for several years. There are many things that I think he should be doing differently in the way he approaches his piano practice, but I am learning to keep my mouth shut.

 

I am a hobbyist musician myself, and I, personally, derive an awful lot of enjoyment out of the music that I do. I do not know if my ds will choose music as a career, but if he doesn't, I hope it is a life-long hobby for him. However, he will eventually be old enough that HE has to make that decision. If you don't continue to stay involved with your boys' music will they quit? Quite possibily. However, that is always a risk when they become adults.

 

My best advice is to get out of the way and let them take control. Now, if they fail to do whatever you and the teacher require of them, then I would absolutely quit paying for lessons. But, if they are at least attempting to do what the teacher asks and are practicing whatever amount of time you deem appropriate, I think the tension will get MUCH better if you move over.

 

Sorry if this isn't what you wanted to hear. Part of it is their ages...my son is just really wanting to break away more and more from me.

 

HTH a little. Remember, advice is worth what you pay for it! ;)

[JennW in SoCal]

I come from a family of musicians, and neither my mom nor dad EVER sat in on a lesson or during my practice time, even when I was 8 years old. My progress was up to me, any corrections were only made by the teacher. I would have quit if my parents were so closely involved!

 

Do they play in an orchestra or any outside ensembles? String instruments are not much fun by themselves -- I know as I am a violinist. I kept playing through college because I loved playing in symphonies, and now I enjoy small community orchestras and playing string quartets. When I haven't had those opportunities I would stop playing as it is too boring just hearing myself.

 

Whatever you do, don't take their instruments away as a punitive measure -- it should be ok for them to say they just don't like music and would rather do something else. Allow them make the choice to quit or continue. They may want to do something completely different from their older siblings, create their own identity and not have to always feel in the shadow of the older kids.

 

It isn't an easy age, either, is it?! I know I struggle in wondering how hard to push and when to let go.

[djkapp]

Thanks for the thoughts--

 

As to the "criticisms", these are definitely areas I've considered myself! I appreciate the honest suggestions that some of the problem is me! Good food for thought and evaluation.

 

Yvonne

[FO4UR]

I am a musician myself and here is the BIG secret!

 

In order for children to grow to LOVE music, it needs to be a sanctuary from *real* life. It needs to be personal. It needs to be an outlet, and an independent venture. At 11 and 13, those boys probably just need to have more freedom in their practice time. Encourage them to take notes themselves - it's time. What you are doing is really good for younger kids, and you've probably done it for years. The music lesson is a great place to hand over the parenting hat and trade for an innocent bystander hat...(just keep the checkbook out for the tuition/books/instrument repair...:tongue_smilie:) You might let that go in stages by requiring that they practice for 20-30min per day, but on their own.

 

My aunt is a professional pianist/organist today. She spent her childhood and teen years practicing for hours each day. Her parents never MADE her practice. They gave her time each day when her siblings were not allowed to bother her, mother did not give her chores and father GUARDED her time. As long as her fingers were at the keyboard she knew Daddy would not let anyone bother her (and she got out of a lot of dishes and laundry that way:lol:)

 

My mom (one of my aunts disgruntled siblings:tongue_smilie:) took note and no matter how crazy our home life was, when I practiced my music it was a guarded, safe and private time. Wouldn't ya' know....I went to college on music scholarships.

[KAR120C]

Her parents never MADE her practice. They gave her time each day when her siblings were not allowed to bother her, mother did not give her chores and father GUARDED her time. As long as her fingers were at the keyboard she knew Daddy would not let anyone bother her (and she got out of a lot of dishes and laundry that way:lol:)

DS knows that saying "I think I should practice first" will get him out of half an hour of facing his other schoolwork. ;)

[FO4UR]

DS knows that saying "I think I should practice first" will get him out of half an hour of facing his other schoolwork. ;)

 

:lol:Take heart, if his grades fail him, there is always a music scholarship somewhere!:tongue_smilie::lol:

[PeterPan]

Well I haven't read the other responses, but could I suggest that *you* stop sitting in on their lessons and back off? Why do you need to take notes for an 11 yo??? They have a teacher and an assignment book, don't they? They have pencils and know how to write, right? Get out of the way and let THEM take responsibility. To me, it sounds like you're babying them and they don't like it. Sorry, but I've done the same thing myself. The more I back off with my dd, the more it allows her to do it herself.

[KAR120C]

:lol:Take heart, if his grades fail him, there is always a music scholarship somewhere!:tongue_smilie::lol:

Oh but the salary of a professional musician! How will he ever support me in my old age?? ;)

[Nicole M]

In Yvonne's defense, if the children's teachers are using the Suzuki method, the parents are expected to sit in on the lessons and take notes and assist with practice. At least that is expected around here. My youngest (just turned 12) is taking Suzuki piano lessons and we do sit in and take notes. However, we cheat, and do not oversee the practice time. One of the advantages of Suzuki is that children learn how to practice. So we find that he practices quite well on his own now.

 

Yvonne, you may want to see how backing off on the practice goes. I still listen in, but from another room. And if, when I peek in, I notice a posture problem or something that I can help with, then I casually offer that help, sometimes by simply touching my son's shoulder as I pass. (Our house is small so my boys have had to learn to put up with traffic when they practice.)

 

You are a devoted mom! Your house must be filled with music. Enjoy that while they are still living in your home.

[Storm Bay]

It might be time to switch from Suzuki to a private teacher who doesn't require you to sit and take notes, etc. It really is time for them to take more responsibility for their music. Or it might be time for them to quit (horrors, and I'm a piano teacher saying this.) Quitting doesnt always end in musical failure (see my egs)

 

I have a friend who is a professional classical musician who works mostly freelance because he has a Ph.D. in composition. He quit piano after a year because his piano teacher turned him off. He started guitar a few years later after seeing rock played on TV; he picked up the cello when he joined the high school orchestra. The key is he wanted it and wasn't forced.

 

Practicing isn't fun. There, I've said it. I only practiced because my parents refused to pay for lessons if I didn't and I wanted them very badly. Still, I had reverse perfectionism so never tried very hard because I knew I couldn't be perfect, therefore I had an "excuse." I was musically gifted (was told so by someone in the know, so I'm not making this up) but threw that away. I'm the one who has lived with that decision, not my parents. fwiw, most of my siblings gave up far sooner.

 

My nephews both quit piano, but later started playing in the school band. My 12 yo nephew started piano again this year because he'd been seeing his sax teacher play chords, etc. That sax teacher was a student of a rival piano teacher in my home area (okay, they weren't really rivals, but had very different ideas about certain things.)

 

As I mentioned first, I'd try switching where you take lessons so that your dc can practice more on their own than with you.

Edited November 13, 2008 by Karin

[Wildiris]

I am a musician myself and here is the BIG secret!

 

In order for children to grow to LOVE music, it needs to be a sanctuary from *real* life. It needs to be personal. It needs to be an outlet, and an independent venture. At 11 and 13, those boys probably just need to have more freedom in their practice time. Encourage them to take notes themselves - it's time. What you are doing is really good for younger kids, and you've probably done it for years. The music lesson is a great place to hand over the parenting hat and trade for an innocent bystander hat...(just keep the checkbook out for the tuition/books/instrument repair...:tongue_smilie:) You might let that go in stages by requiring that they practice for 20-30min per day, but on their own.

 

My aunt is a professional pianist/organist today. She spent her childhood and teen years practicing for hours each day. Her parents never MADE her practice. They gave her time each day when her siblings were not allowed to bother her, mother did not give her chores and father GUARDED her time. As long as her fingers were at the keyboard she knew Daddy would not let anyone bother her (and she got out of a lot of dishes and laundry that way:lol:)

 

My mom (one of my aunts disgruntled siblings:tongue_smilie:) took note and no matter how crazy our home life was, when I practiced my music it was a guarded, safe and private time. Wouldn't ya' know....I went to college on music scholarships.

 

This is one of the best replies!!:001_smile:

 

To the original poster, it seems that you could break up the practice time in to two 45 minute sessions??

 

My DD (11) plays piano. She doesn't practice as long as I wish, but she plays well enough to succeed with the time she does put in. When she was young I sat by her, but now she practices on her own. I listen and lend my ear to what she plays, but it is up to her. When both of my sons got to this same age and point in their piano playing they chose not to continue and moved onto other interests. IMHO I think there must be a passion to pursue any endeavor otherwise the pursuit falls flat, and if I'm overly involved the pursuit becomes mine and not the child's.

[Heather in Neverland]

1. Ds is in a university music program and I am not allowed to sit in on his group classes or his private class but I do somewhat monitor is practice at home.

 

2. "time" does not work around here as far as practice goes. So ds has to practice each song X number of times (or X number of times without error), various drills have to be done X amount of times as well. So how much time he spends practicing really is up to him and his level of motivation.

 

3. Ds must complete his schoolwork and piano practice before he is allowed to do anything else (no tv, video games, etc.) so that is another motivation to get it done.

 

4. He knows that quitting is not an option. At nearly 11yo he is not old enough to make decisions about what is best for him. I told him if he does not appreciate his musical talent then I will appreciate it for him until he is old enough to appreciate it on his own.

 

5. Most of all is our reason for learning piano: It's not about my ds, it's about God. God gave my ds the necessary talent to play an instrument and ds uses that talent to glorify God (as we are supposed to in everything we say or do including piano practice). If ds grumbles about practice I simply ask him, "Is this behavior glorifying to God?" That's usually the end of it.

 

When I was a child my mom gave me the option of piano or cheerleading. What do you think I chose? Worst decision ever. I would LOVE to be able to play piano now and my mom never should have let a child make that decision.

[FO4UR]

Oh but the salary of a professional musician! How will he ever support me in my old age?? ;)

:lol::lol::lol:

 

OUCH! You don't want to know MY salary.......I'm a SAHM to give you a clue:nopity::lol:

 

Thinking about this more, I would meet with the boys and their teacher and come up with a practice plan that everyone agrees upon. It might be wise to keep tabs on a few skill building scales/arpeggio type assignments, but let the performance pieces and vast majority of daily work be "theirs." Their teacher probably can give some good advice, knowing the boys.

[Matryoshka]

In Yvonne's defense, if the children's teachers are using the Suzuki method, the parents are expected to sit in on the lessons and take notes and assist with practice. At least that is expected around here. My youngest (just turned 12) is taking Suzuki piano lessons and we do sit in and take notes. However, we cheat, and do not oversee the practice time. One of the advantages of Suzuki is that children learn how to practice. So we find that he practices quite well on his own now.

 

My kids all take Suzuki. I have to say that for one of my dds, sitting in on the lessons and monitoring her practice did not work, at least after the first couple years. She would get upset by any little thing I did in practice, and at home it was worse - I could give her the exact same feedback about posture or bowing or anything that the teacher did, and she completely resented it, even though I told her that it was supposed to be my job (per the teacher).

 

Fortunately, the teacher also saw it wasn't working, and she actually suggested that we try it with her in the lesson alone. I gratefully said yes - it's been much better. Now she has to take responsibility for her own practice, and if she doesn't, it's between her and the teacher, I don't have to nag her or be the bad guy.

 

My other two, I still sit in and take notes, but I honestly don't monitor their practice much at home other than to make sure they have a regular practice time every day, and kind of listen from a distance to make sure they're doing about what they're supposed to, and comment if it's been rushed or sloppy. My older one is starting to really take responsibility (she's 10) - the younger one (almost 8) could probably benefit from my sitting there more (and would probably still like the attention), so that's my bad, but she's still doing very well - I don't expect any of them to be concert musicians, but I do expect that they will continue lessons so that they can have the enjoyment of music their whole lives.

 

I heard about some study where if a kid quits before/around puberty, which I think a huge number do, they pretty much lose it and can't play as adults, but if they continue past puberty (at least till mid/later teen years), they tend to keep it.

[cougarmom4]

I find my children love to have a few "dessert" pieces to play--letting them choose a few of their own songs to play around with after the essentials are practiced. For one it might be 'fiddling' music after classical violin, for another may be the Theme from Harry Potter on the piano. One of mine will play for long after practice time is supposed to be over--especially now that the teacher gave her a Christmas book full of familiar songs that she's playing with. Two of mine also enjoy playing simple arrangements of church hymns--I think it's because they are so familiar and I'm not making them practice them, they are playing for their own enjoyment.

[Titus.Two.Five]

The three girls (14, 15, and 17) all play piano reasonably well but have chosen to focus on their second instruments, and I have allowed them to drop piano instruction.

 

Now the difficulty-- I gave up on piano because I was getting so much resistance to practicing two instruments. Now I'm getting equally as much resistance to practicing one instrument.

 

It sounds like you've been reasonable in following their interest so I don't think the problem lies with you pushing them in an overbearing manner.

 

I have 5 children, 4 of them take piano (ages 13, 12, 10, and 7) and the 12 yr old also takes Sax lessons. I do help my 7 yr old as needed but I do not sit right there....I oversee him, listen in, and offer help when I see something that needs a bit of instruction, but for the most part my children are independent with their practice. Practice is in the daily lesson planner so it does get done. daily. period. That is a given.

 

I'm not sure why the extreme 'hand holding' so I cannot comment on that really. It's not something *I* would do, but I am not you either.

 

That said I would treat it as a discipline issue. They chose their 2nd instrument (you allowed them to drop their non interest - piano) now they must hold their end of the obligation. 11 yrs old is WAY old enough to be held responsible enough to follow through on commitments.