S/O college essays - how much do you help?

[Wheres Toto]

There's a discussion on the college board right now with a link to an article about services that help with college essay writing, and how it may give advantages to those who can afford these services, or does it really matter.

 

I was wondering for a more general opinion on how much do you assist your kids when they do writing samples for outside organizations, like Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, 4-H, etc?

 

My kids submitted 4-H record books for this year.  One part of it is "My 4-H Story" where they tell about themselves and what they feel they accomplished in 4-H this year.   My kids typed theirs in Word but the spelling/grammar check is turned off because they use it for school.  I did suggest some things they wanted to talk about but left it up to them to put in the amount of time/attention that they wanted to.

 

Same with the rest of their record books, as well as their projects for Fair.  I made suggestions, assisted with gathering materials and stuff like laminating a poster, but the rest was all their work.  They received ribbons accordingly.  (Ds didn't take one of my suggestions and the judge actually mentioned exactly what I told him would be a good idea to include).

 

My son did an extremely lame, barely a paragraph "story" and that's what was submitted in his book.   Dd did a longer more involved story with some grammar mistakes, and fairly awkward writing but it was her words and her work.  Probably not atypical for a just starting 5th grader.

 

I'm wondering If I should be giving more assistance?   I know in school teachers will offer corrections and allow revisions, and I do that for their school work. This just feels different.  But I also know there are kids who submit final school assignments - in writing, posters, artwork, photography - to Fair or as part of their record books and it makes me wonder if I should be offering more assistance.

 

But 4-H is supposed to be THEIR work.   I could certainly have required more effort on their 4-H work, making it part of school, and correcting the out-put.  But is that the right thing to do?   We're not talking college admissions or anything that high stakes, but they could get recognition on a county or state level, and eventually possibly scholarship awards.

[EKS]

I am an active coach.  I have no problem working with my kids on their writing to get them to be as good as they can be.  How else are they going to learn?

 

But I should say that acting as a coach is not the same thing as writing the essay myself.

Edited November 1, 2017 by EKS

[MinivanMom]

For me, it depends on whether the writing itself will be judged. If my kids are submitting to an actual writing contest, then I don't go near it. I might make a general suggestion like, "You should organize your ideas before you start writing," or, "If you type it up, you can use spell-check," but I don't look at the writing at all. If they tell me it's okay, I will read the final draft that they are submitting (usually when they are submitting it), but I try really hard to not look at their work at all before that point.

 

If it's something where the writing is just a component of a general activity, then I will look over their shoulders. I'm thinking of my oldest son recently writing a report on a town council meeting he attended to give to his boy scout merit badge counselor. I was definitely looking over his shoulder and telling him to go back and edit the spelling mistakes. But the purpose of the merit badge activity was to observe local government in action. The report was simply how he communicated back with the mb counselor, so I felt fine pointing out when his work was sloppy or not finished to *my* satisfaction before letting him turn it in. But I wouldn't feel okay sitting down with him to help him organize his writing or actually editing it for him, because the merit badge is supposed to be his own work.

 

For writing done in our homeschool for the purposes of learning how to write, I'm the complete opposite. I spend lots of time sitting beside my kids and working with them through every step of the writing process. 

[Wheres Toto]

I am an active coach.  I have no problem working with my kids on their writing to get them to be as good as they can be.  How else are they going to learn?

 

But I should say that acting as a coach is not the same thing as writing the essay myself.

 

I definitely work with them when they do writing for school.  I correct, explain, and we go step-by-step.  Because in that case I'm teaching them how to write.

 

But this is about things that are supposed to be completely their own work.  Is it enough that it's their own words and ideas, even if I correct the grammar and spelling?  Or does that no longer count as their own words?

[EKS]

I definitely work with them when they do writing for school.  I correct, explain, and we go step-by-step.  Because in that case I'm teaching them how to write.

 

But this is about things that are supposed to be completely their own work.  Is it enough that it's their own words and ideas, even if I correct the grammar and spelling?  Or does that no longer count as their own words?

 

Everyone needs a good editor.  When I applied to MD-PhD programs, I asked some people whose writing I admired to go over my essay(s).  One of those people was my father.  I don't see anything wrong with that, and I would think that college admissions people would assume that kids are going to get help with that sort of thing.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

I definitely work with them when they do writing for school.  I correct, explain, and we go step-by-step.  Because in that case I'm teaching them how to write.

 

But this is about things that are supposed to be completely their own work.  Is it enough that it's their own words and ideas, even if I correct the grammar and spelling?  Or does that no longer count as their own words?

 

 

 

You can help them edit. I have always asked someone to look over any writing I am submitting to check for errors.  Helping edit mechanics doesn't detract from their own ideas. 

[J-rap]

For things like 4H project reports, I was pretty much hands off, and probably wouldn't have even looked it over!  Of course if they wanted me to look it over to make sure they spelled everything correctly, I would have.  But, something like that probably isn't very dependent on their writing ability.

 

(It did bug me though when I could clearly see that parents had stepped in to help make their kids' 4H projects look very professional -- building display boards for their kids, making professional signs, etc;  whereas my kids' projects looked very homemade, but they did it all themselves.)

 

For college essays, I was mostly hands-off.  In fact, for three of my children I was completely hands-off.  They like to write and didn't feel they needed my help.  For one of my dd's, I brainstormed on topics with her (for her admissions essay), and did help her with editing when she was done.  Sometimes even now she'll send me her important college papers to edit.  I'm fine with that, because it's really about the content -- which she completely gets.  A few editing suggestions aren't what the paper is about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by J-rap

[Arcadia]

I did suggest some things they wanted to talk about but left it up to them to put in the amount of time/attention that they wanted to.

When my kids were in public schools, their teachers would make suggestions for their science fair projects but it is ultimately up to my kids what suggestions they want to use. Their teachers aren’t the annual school science fair judges so there is no conflict of interest.

 

When I was in public school, some teachers would suggest what constitute an A grade level of work, a B grade level of work, etc. It is up to the kids to meet the teacher after school for suggestions/opinions/proofreading. There were classmates who are weak in English and the teachers did help proofread essays for those classmates.

But this is about things that are supposed to be completely their own work. Is it enough that it's their own words and ideas, even if I correct the grammar and spelling? Or does that no longer count as their own words?

I still tell my 8th grader if he has grammar or spelling errors before he send out the email to his outsourced class teachers. I also proofread his summer camps applications for grammar and spelling. However he does his own corrections. My 7th grader isn’t a natural speller so I helped with spelling when he was younger if there is a time crunch but he use the dictionary most of the time. Autocorrect can give comical substitutions so my kids have autocorrect turned off.

 

You are just doing the work of the word processor’s grammar check and spell checker modules when you check their grammar and spelling. Correcting their grammar to the extent of rewriting the sentence for them does cross the line somewhat (in terms of style and tone)

Edited November 1, 2017 by Arcadia

[MinivanMom]

You can help them edit. I have always asked someone to look over any writing I am submitting to check for errors.  Helping edit mechanics doesn't detract from their own ideas. 

 

My oldest daughter has submitted writing to contests that specify that no help with editing is permitted. I know one contest (when she was a good bit younger) specified that parents could help type their child's work as long as they typed it exactly as written and did not correct spelling or grammar mistakes. So that's something to be aware of with writing contests. Read the rules carefully.

 

OP, for the situation you're describing with 4-H, I would guess that help with editing is common and expected. Just don't do the writing for them or feed them the words. I would also beg all parents to let their kids make their own posters and displays - if only because the kid-made displays are so darn cute. I don't need to see a perfect, polished display made by a 45-yr-old dad. I want to see stuff that's actually made by kids!

[fralala]

It's tough, isn't it?

 

There's assistance and collaboration that actually helps a person learn and grow through struggle-- the struggle of being challenged the first time through and told, "You can do better, and I'm willing to help."

 

That kind of help is productive and what all kids really deserve, and very different from a parent thinking, "Oh, man, this makes me look bad and my kid is going to fail, so let me just tidy it up for her."

 

But one thing that I've noticed from the negative comments parents make to me is that there is a strong assumption (in my competitive part of the country) that other parents are doing the second thing, and that there is such a strong reaction against that that parents avoid doing the first. But there's a reason there are writing centers on college campuses. It's a matter of courtesy to your readers to hammer out a clean final draft. And it's work. Even with a parent or tutor at your elbow. (Unless it's a "tutor" who is willing to do the whole you-pay-I-revise thing.) Being unable to take criticism is a huge impediment for writers, and so I'd say you are helping your kids a lot by helping them hammer out those drafts-- not writing for them, but asking questions, clarifying, encouraging them to proofread sections again, and so forth. (I don't correct my kids' mistakes, but I do let them know that they're there and they always choose to figure out the correct spelling or the rule because they don't want to submit something with mistakes, even though it's more work to do the rewrites.)

[ealp2009]

I brainstorm with my kids and will edit for my kids. I will write ideas down that they have to help them get something on the paper and sit beside them because I think that seems to help a lot.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

It's tough, isn't it?

 

There's assistance and collaboration that actually helps a person learn and grow through struggle-- the struggle of being challenged the first time through and told, "You can do better, and I'm willing to help."

 

That kind of help is productive and what all kids really deserve, and very different from a parent thinking, "Oh, man, this makes me look bad and my kid is going to fail, so let me just tidy it up for her."

 

But one thing that I've noticed from the negative comments parents make to me is that there is a strong assumption (in my competitive part of the country) that other parents are doing the second thing, and that there is such a strong reaction against that that parents avoid doing the first. But there's a reason there are writing centers on college campuses. It's a matter of courtesy to your readers to hammer out a clean final draft. And it's work. Even with a parent or tutor at your elbow. (Unless it's a "tutor" who is willing to do the whole you-pay-I-revise thing.) Being unable to take criticism is a huge impediment for writers, and so I'd say you are helping your kids a lot by helping them hammer out those drafts-- not writing for them, but asking questions, clarifying, encouraging them to proofread sections again, and so forth. (I don't correct my kids' mistakes, but I do let them know that they're there and they always choose to figure out the correct spelling or the rule because they don't want to submit something with mistakes, even though it's more work to do the rewrites.)

 

 

I see this happen in 4H circles here. I watched a friend complete her child's project for them and then they won best in class.  I was shocked to see she did all the work, no wonder their projects were amazing. 

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited November 14, 2017 by _______

[Jess4879]

We brainstorm together and I will read over finished pieces if they ask me too.  I also encourage the kids to read their writing out loud to the family and then we will each comment on something  we found confusing, liked, disliked, etc.  If I make a suggestion, I don't allow the kids to use it verbatim.  They have to put it in to their own words, style, etc.  

 

I have helped to type up long essays and stories, but I don't make any corrections.  They come back and do the editing themselves on the computer.  

 

All that being said, we outsourced one of oldest DD's classes and some assignments have been a HUGE amount of writing.  Yesterday most of her day was spent writing out answers to numerous questions that I normally would have done orally.  It just isn't a good use of her time and I don't feel like it's something that is benefiting her, so I plan to start discussing answers orally and allowing her to dictate to me. 

[MerryAtHope]

My dd participated in a science fair for years. In the beginning (4th grade), I assisted a lot, and by the end not much at all.

 

In the beginning, my dd composed orally, with me typing exactly what she said. After doing a rough draft, I asked questions to show where connecting thoughts or information were missing. We would discuss, and then I would say, "Okay, so how would you like to say that?" or, "Here's what you have right now (reading back a portion to her). How would you like to add to this?"

 

I would print out a copy and we would talk about any grammar issues. "This isn't a complete sentence because ___. How could we change it?" or, "This is a run-on sentence. We should break it up into two sentences. [or three...]" If she needed help or suggestions, I would offer some. If she needed help explaining what she meant, I sometimes brainstormed that too, and then let her decide what I should type. 

 

I didn't have either of my kids fix everything or make papers perfect in situations like this, but I did help and show them how to make what they wanted to say better. We brainstormed and when they said something great, I would say, "Write that!" and get it down on paper (or later on, have them go write what they said after we brainstormed.) I also helped with the oral presentation--we role-played and I asked questions. This encouraged my dd to go back and read more or conversely to decide when she had learned as much as she wanted to learn (I told her even adults who make this their life's work don't know everything about the topic of cells, for example.) As she practiced explaining things to her non-science-y mother, she learned how to become a better presenter. 

 

Over the 7 years she participated, she gradually took over all of the writing tasks. She dictated through her kindle (she still enjoys writing rough drafts orally in college). She learned to type and do revisions. Eventually she only had me read one of her drafts for basic feedback and I wasn't otherwise involved at all. 

 

 

 

[hornblower]

I edit, proofread and give detailed feedback to my whole family. Even for my father who is involved in an organization where he needs to distribute written reports; he sends them to me first. 

My kids' colleges both have a peer editing service that is included for free in their tuition for a certain number of essays each semester. The 'peers' are I think either in 3rd/4th year of English or grad students from all over the province. You submit your essay to them online with a copy of the assignment rubric from the prof. They will flag, underline and comment on thesis, structure, as well as mechanics, tense inconsistencies, awkward language etc.  All students are encouraged to use the service.  

I think it's a good idea to get everyone used to being edited and receiving feedback on their writing.