Aargh. Venting. Religious Content.

[Saille]

Hi. Not bashing any religion, so if you're worried about that, read on, it's safe.

 

My mom is weird about religion. There's this sort of...I don't know, a don't ask, don't tell policy? That's still not quite it.

 

I've said this elsewhere on the boards; I'm pagan and UU. I have been since I was about seventeen. I went through a period of intense Catholicism, which ultimately turned out to be the wrong path for me. Finding the right one was a wonderfully fulfilling and transformative experience, and I've been contentedly traveling that path for fully half my life.

 

My mom ignores this, unless she's telling people that it's wonderful that my family is actively involved in our church, the religious ed program, etc.. She either hedges a lot about *what* church, or figures people won't know what Unitarian Universalism is. She pretends the paganism doesn't exist, then "remembers" every so often and freaks out, but never, ever within my earshot, although she makes sure it gets back to me through my sister. She has a history of wanting to make coffee talk about me and brag without actually being involved in/approving of any of the things she's bragging about. It's very uncomfortable, because on the one hand, she makes a decision to not have an emotionally close relationship with me, and on the other hand, she represents us to the relatives as being close. We talk on the phone maybe a dozen times a year, she blows up periodically with no warning, but she gets to look like mom of the year at Easter dinner.

 

The reason this is driving me so nuts is that she'll call my sisters and have some kind of...I don't know...Catholic solidarity talk when she's upset with me. The thing is, neither of my sisters GO to church (although one sister made a big deal out of having the whole family come from far away places for her son's baptism, at a church she has no other relationship with). Both of my sisters have engaged in behaviors that go directly against church teachings, without any apparent ripple of concern. My mom was raised strict Eastern European Catholic, and she's very devout, so the idea that my non-practicing sisters are religious and therefore acceptable, and I'm very active in my religion, but it's the "wrong" one so I'm the black sheep...aargh. In terms of having actual religious and spiritual lives, I think my mom and I most likely have far more in common than she does with my sisters. It seems very hypocritical to me, on all their parts.

 

It's bothering me right now b/c we just went through a loop of this again, and my sister (the baptism one) simply will NOT refrain from telling me when my mom is upset, no matter how busy she knows I am, no matter how many times I tell her to stop. I'm trying to let it go, but I'm tired of this stuff spilling over into my life when I least expect it. If she can't talk to me like a grownup, I'd rather just ignore it.

 

Thanks for listening.

[Melinda in VT]

:grouphug:

 

We were active in a UU church for a couple of years (and probably still would be if we hadn't moved out of state), and heard a lot from both sides of our family about how it was "not a real church." The family seems happier now that I am attending a UCC church, even though my personal beliefs are more heretical than when I was a UU.:001_huh:

[elegantlion]

:grouphug: Parents can be very frustrating, even before you throw religious beliefs into the mix. :grouphug:

[OnTheBrink]

Do you have caller ID? I'd start using it and not taking the sister's calls. She calls when she's riled and ready to go. If she is met with a voice mail, it'll deflate her. You can then call her back later (if you want) and I guarantee you, the wind in her sails will at the very least, be less, if not gone altogether.

 

If she asks why you're suddenly not taking her calls, you can say, "I've asked you time and again to back off the religion issues and you refuse to respect my request. I don't have time to discuss religion with you and I refuse to do so. So, until you can drop it, don't expect me to take your calls."

 

You choose what you allow in your "home" so, I'd raise the drawbridge to her until she gets it.

[Saille]

The thing is, while my sister and I talk probably once a week, this might happen once every six months. Not sure what to do about that.

[dragons in the flower bed]

The thing is, while my sister and I talk probably once a week, this might happen once every six months. Not sure what to do about that.

 

Tell her at the first sign that if she mentions one more opinion of your mother's in that conversation you are hanging up without further warning or explanation. Then do so.

[WTMCassandra]

Personally, I think this has a lot less to do with religion and a lot more to do with a toxic family system. It's just that a toxic family system holds no topic "sacred," even religion. Disrespect, irrationality, and deceit are the order of the day, and it's infuriating.

 

I agree with the posters who recommend setting boundaries with your sister. And I'm so sorry you have to deal with the endemic disrespect from your mother. I don't really have much advice there except to minimize your vulnerability to her as much as possible by not sharing personal information, etc. But in my experience it is not worth it trying to match a toxic person's "image management" with relatives/acquaintances--they are masters at it and you will fall short simply because you are not as wily as a toxic person.

 

(((Saille)))

[Danestress]

"I will not talk about sis with Mom. I will not talk about Mom with Sis. I will not talk about issues that came up when they two of you were talking about me. Period."

 

If Sis starts telling you how upset Mom is, "I will not talk about Mom's feelings with you. I will talk about then with her only." Rinse. Repeat. Rince. Repeat. Do not allow yourself to get sucked into breaking this rule.

[dragons in the flower bed]

If Sis starts telling you how upset Mom is, "I will not talk about Mom's feelings with you. I will talk about them with her only." Rinse. Repeat.

 

Can I revise my advise? Channeling your inner broken record would definitely be nicer than hanging up on her (and I'm generally in favor of niceness, even to obnoxious younger siblings).

[Saille]

Personally, I think this has a lot less to do with religion and a lot more to do with a toxic family system. It's just that a toxic family system holds no topic "sacred," even religion. Disrespect, irrationality, and deceit are the order of the day, and it's infuriating.

 

I agree with the posters who recommend setting boundaries with your sister. And I'm so sorry you have to deal with the endemic disrespect from your mother. I don't really have much advice there except to minimize your vulnerability to her as much as possible by not sharing personal information, etc. But in my experience it is not worth it trying to match a toxic person's "image management" with relatives/acquaintances--they are masters at it and you will fall short simply because you are not as wily as a toxic person.

 

(((Saille)))

 

I think you're right. I've spent years extricating myself from this system, and was not accepting visits from my mom for several years because of her blanket refusal to deal with it. It's gotten much better, but there are still certain things that get my goat. Keeping up with the Joneses is one of them. Everyone stays in hotels when they visit each other now, or bed and breakfasts. We grew up sleeping in people's spare rooms and on their floors, so I am flummoxed by this, and it frequently means we can't afford to visit. The religion thing is the other one that really gets me. Religion was subverted in our house in a way that makes it difficult to differentiate between that and the toxic system.

 

And I swear, I've been saying exactly what you're saying I should say for years upon years, and I did it again this time, in no uncertain terms.

 

Rose, I think I *should* hang up. I think it's time. I think there's no further gain to be made from repeating myself, and she's still getting her licks in, under the guise of being "helpful", before I can tell her to hush.

 

I never see the west coast family, so it's not that big a deal what mom says, it's just weird to think that I have this image within the family that has nothing to do with reality.

[Saille]

Hey, y'all. I got a very nice pm today, but I thought I'd pop in and say that if you have a CC answer, don't hesitate to post publicly. I mean, don't flame me, :leaving:

but you're not really supposed to do that anyway, so it's all good. It would be kind of silly to post a religion thread here if I were afraid of CC.

[WTMCassandra]

Religion was subverted in our house in a way that makes it difficult to differentiate between that and the toxic system.

 

And I swear, I've been saying exactly what you're saying I should say for years upon years, and I did it again this time, in no uncertain terms.

 

Rose, I think I *should* hang up. I think it's time. I think there's no further gain to be made from repeating myself, and she's still getting her licks in, under the guise of being "helpful", before I can tell her to hush.

 

I never see the west coast family, so it's not that big a deal what mom says, it's just weird to think that I have this image within the family that has nothing to do with reality.

 

((((Saille))) Religion can become a horrible weapon in a toxic system. I'm so sorry.

 

I must say I agree that it might be time to hang up. I might warn once, but after that, just a quiet (not angry) click and then let resulting snarky callbacks go to voicemail.

 

And I totally "get" how weird it is that the image within the family has nothing to do with reality. Ask me how I know. :tongue_smilie: And we're conservative Christians from "Christian" families. :001_huh: As for your Mom, "Christians" like that give me the absolute willies. Even though your religion is very different from mine, I would never dream of treating you (or anyone else) that way.

[dragons in the flower bed]

And I totally "get" how weird it is that the image within the family has nothing to do with reality.

 

Me, too. I'd bet most of the women (and you three men) here know that feeling. Despite FaceBook and such, in most families, communication and information structures still hinge upon that one noisy person.

[Chris in VA]

I just wanted to say that I'm sorry you have to go thru this. I know it is very hard for some parents to give up what they hope for their children when their children choose differently. I think it's ok to hope for change or whatever, but it's really better to face the truth and just love adult children, and know that whatever they choose in the religion dept is pretty much between them and God (or not God, whatever--insert slight awkwardness here, as I'm trying not to offend!), and that's where it belongs. Surrendering one's need to be right, and need to be vocal about it, is pretty stinky, hard work, but I think it's necessary to one's own growth to get there. This is spoken as a Christian with an atheist brother and son.

[Obi-Mom Kenobi]

My family's atheism is a frequent source of gossip and passive-aggressive attacks from certain people in Dad Windu's family. Try not to take it personally, but don't feel you have to just grin and bear it either. How does this sound? "I'm not going to discuss this further with you. Please call again sometime when you can talk about something else. I love you very much. Good-bye."

 

Good luck on the home front.

[Spy Car]

Saille, if you don't mind little "contrarian" advice.

 

First, in some ways, things are never going to change. Accept that and you will be better off. Your mother has deeply engrained ideas (like we all do). She may "annoy" you now, but it sounds to me like she cares about you, and one day she'll be gone...so what kind of relationship do you want while she's here?

 

To me, it sounds like she's lonely. Often people stir-up "family dramas" when they are feeling neglected and alone. Even "negative" attention is better than no attention what-so-ever.

 

We can easily forget when we are busy with children and spouses that our parents may no longer have the social interactions that family and careers one provided them.

 

So instead of call screening, telephone hang-ups, or laying down the law, what about trying to carve out a little time to speak intimately with your mother? Time to inquire how she's doing, time to hear her out, and time to extend a kindness and let her feel you care and that she is loved.

 

Because this is what it sounds like to me, maybe your mom just wants to feel loved and that you care.

 

My apologies if I'm a million-miles off, but this is the best I have to offer.

 

Bill (who really likes you :001_smile: )

Edited November 8, 2008 by Spy Car

[Saille]

Aw, Bill, I like you too!

 

She is going through a hard time right now, and we're talking much more frequently than normal because of it, so while she's sad, I don't think she's feeling ignored. She's also part of the reason I keep the blog; I know she likes to see pictures of the kids and know what we're doing. She visited a couple of months ago, which is a big deal, since we're on opposite coasts.

 

She's a whip-smart lady (a lawyer), and so I find the passive aggressive stuff very confusing. For example, she'll ask me a question about my life and then clearly, obviously do something else and not listen while I answer. She'll print photos off the blog but not actually read it. I think this is part of why it's a big deal when she finally glances at the text and sees a word like "Samhain". But, you know, lack of attentiveness on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine, etc.. It's not like I'm hiding it and she's finding out. I've been very up front about this for a long time.

 

This particular time, my sister called to tell me mom was freaking out, and then, weirdly, my mom called that afternoon and talked to me for TWO HOURS and never brought it up. She never, ever willingly talks that long on the phone. There was ample opportunity for her to talk to me about religious issues, as activities related to church came up several times, and we talked about my great-uncle and his Pastor as well.

 

I think she's either:

 

A. Blowing off steam (which makes my sister feel special and feeds her desire to call me and be "in the know")

B. Hoping for a passive-aggressive resolution

C. Isn't even thinking it through to that degree

 

She has always, always done this about something or other. She found salt with my sister's hot roller set and thought it was cocaine. I took my baby sister to pick fruit and learned to can, and she thought my canning equipment might be abortion equipment. In college, I went a long while without mentioning anyone I was dating, so she decided I was a lesbian. I brought Bill home to meet my parents, and she asked my middle sister if I was already married. So, while there is an argument to be made for her simply believing my soul is in danger, and never being able to reconcile with my choices, it's hard for me to fully believe that's what's going on.

 

Here's another example:

 

She told me, when I was small, that everyone should convert to Catholicism. She said that people who hadn't heard of it yet wouldn't go to hell b/c it wasn't their fault they didn't know. I asked about my Grandma, a Methodist married to a devout Catholic. She *did* know about Catholicism, so wasn't she in trouble with God for not converting? No, because her parents told her to be Methodist. This conversation was in the context of a household in which religion was a constant sore spot between my parents, b/c my dad was Presbyterian.

 

I guess I just find her reasoning to be spotty and irrational. I've gotten some very well-reasoned replies, including some from a biblical perspective, but I don't think my mom is thinking it through to that degree. She's just freaking out. That drives me nuts.

[Carol in Cal.]

Aw, Bill, I like you too!

 

 

This particular time, my sister called to tell me mom was freaking out, and then, weirdly, my mom called that afternoon and talked to me for TWO HOURS and never brought it up. She never, ever willingly talks that long on the phone. There was ample opportunity for her to talk to me about religious issues, as activities related to church came up several times, and we talked about my great-uncle and his Pastor as well.

 

QUOTE]

 

To me this seems pretty simple and straightforward. Not easy, just simple.

 

She sounds like she has two conflicted and very strong views.

 

One is tremendous concern that you and your children, her grandchildren, are not going to end up in heaven someday--according to her Faith. That has got to make her heartsick and frantic.

 

The other is that she wants to be connected with you and respectful of you. That has got to make her feel that she needs to suppress any expression of view number one, above.

 

She is hoisted on that fence every time she speaks with you, looks at your blog, or thinks about you. And she doesn't know what to do about it.

 

The 'everyone should be Catholic' thing when you were a kid--that makes perfect sense in the same kind of scenerio. On the one hand, she wants you to be a Catholic because it is the true faith and she wants you to be saved (again, her view. I'm not arguing this myself, just trying to speak from her perspective.) But, she doesn't want you going off and telling your cousins that they are going to hell because they are not there yet and it's not your place or her place to be that disrespectful of their parents' way of raising their children. Same conflict, only not so strong.

 

I don't think that you can expect her to accept your faith. It is directly contradictory to hers, on every level. But I think that you can expect her to love and accept you, and she clearly does, but she worries about your faith choices a lot. It really makes perfect sense to me.

 

(BTW, I'm Lutheran--I don't entirely agree with her views. But they seem very clear and understandable to me.)

[Peek a Boo]

It's gotten much better, but there are still certain things that get my goat.

 

Kill the goat.

 

BBQ it in a big spit in the ground.

 

invite family.

 

party on :)

 

 

good luck! [thinking you've already gotten plenty of great advice ;)...]

[dragons in the flower bed]

Kill the goat.

 

BBQ it in a big spit in the ground.

 

 

Oh, now, I think goats are pretty necessary.

[Peek a Boo]

Oh, now, I think goats are pretty necessary.

 

 

maybe once upon a time, but they are quite tasty :D