Algebra II or Geometry for sophomore year?

[lamolina]

I know there has got to be a thread on this but I searched and haven't seen one.

 

Could you please tell the pros and cons to one or the other? My son is in Algebra II this year, is not a particularly "mathy" child but doesn't struggle with it either. I am wondering if standardized tests favor one order vs. the other or if there is something else I am not thinking of.

 

The hybrid school he attends also suggested taking both concurrently as an option if he wants to make it through calculus in high school. This sounds kind of horrible to me! At this point his career interests are business or computer science.

 

Thanks for the input!

[regentrude]

It dos not really matter - as long as you pick a program that is intended for the sequence. If an algebra 2 program is supposed to be used after geometry, it may have geometry applications.

Other than that, no difference. SAT and ACT test algebra 1 and geometry.

My DD actually did geo and alg 2 concurrently; that is not horrible at all. For comp scie, he definitely wants very strong math.

[clementine]

Each of our kids did their sequence differently.  One did Alg 1, Alg 2, Geom  and the other did Alg 1, Geom, Alg 2.  

 

After watching them both go through it, I think taking the 2 algebras in a row seemed most logical.  

[lamolina]

Would it be a mistake not to get through Calculus if he might be considering computer science? 

 

Does taking geometry inbetween cause issues with forgetting? It seems smoother to take the 2 algebra classes and then geometry?

 

thanks again

[regentrude]

You don't have to do calculus in high school. It is far more important that the student develop a rock solid mastery of algebra.

 

There should be no "forgetting" if the student has actually understood algebra conceptually. A strong geometry program will apply algebra to geometry, and the student will also use algebra in his high school chemistry and physics courses.

[EndOfOrdinary]

I usually ask if the student tends more toward algebra or toward geometry. Most often a person has a preference where one comes more naturally. Neither is better. It is just how people are hardwired.

 

If the student tends toward geometry, then Alg 1, Geometry, Alg 2. This is so that their understanding of the Algebra 1 concepts can really be cemented with the geometry course. In many students, the shakey things in algebra beecome much clearer when they can really see them and work with them in geometry. So if your student is spacial, geo in the middle. This was my son. He started beginning geometry infront of even algebra 1 because he is so spacial. It did not last long, but if algebra concepts are rattling him, you only need to explain it in geometry terms.

 

If the student tends toward algebra, then Alg 1, Alg2, Geometry. In this instance, front load the algebra. Let those concepts build into a much larger picture with both algebra classes. Then, when you add the geometry, the number strength is really high. The algebra concepts can pull a student through geometry who might not be a spacial. This is me. I struggled terribly in geometry. I just could not "see" any of it! I was very thankful to be back in algebra 2 when the course was finally over!

 

The end goal is for the three classes to work together to create a multifaceted view of similar material. Once PreCalc/Trig hits, the bumps in foundational skills need to be all ironed out. Does that help at all?

[J-rap]

If I had to concentrate more on one or the other to prepare for the SAT, I'd concentrate more on Algebra.  

 

That being said, if you are wondering if you should take Algebra I and Algebra II before taking the SAT (with no Geometry yet), I'd instead take Algebra I and Geometry before the SAT, so you have some exposure to both.

[charlotteb]

Here has been our experience:

DS had always struggled with remembering math concepts.  Math just wasn't his thing- he is so much more comfortable with reading and writing. In high school, he used Math-u-See because he's a very hands-on learner and it seems to help him the most.  We did the sequence of Algebra I, Geometry, and planned to do Algebra 2 next.  However, he had forgotten all his algebra skills during his geometry year.  He could not handle Algebra 2. He did a compass test at the end of his 10th grade (geometry math year) to have him start taking dual credit classes at community college.  His math skills scored into the pre-algebra range because he had forgotten it all.  The compass test that he took covered very little, if any, geometry. Since he had a lot to make up, I moved him back to pre-algebra concepts for the first half of 11th grade.  Then I had him concurrently take Beginning and Intermediate Algebra at the community college after that.  These were not college level classes, but instead more high school level for those who did not have the concepts down. The classes went quickly, but he was able to complete them and then ready for college level math quickly. 

 

So my advice is this: if you have a child who struggles with math, it would be best to do Alg I, Alg 2 and then geometry.  Or use a program like Saxon that integrates geometry with Algebra.  That's what I did with my older DD and plan to do with younger DD.

[lamolina]

Thanks everyone. A lot to think about but I think I am leaning towards Alg I, Geo, Alg II. 

I really appreciate all the information and opinions!

[Jann in TX]

If a student will go on to Pre-Calc then Alg 1, Geometry, Alg 2 is the better option.

Pre-Calc does not have review.  Algebra 2 has review of Algebra 1...

 

I was strong in Algebra and did Alg 1, Alg 2 then Geometry.  I had to drop Pre-Calc.  Geometry only uses Algebra 1 skills.

 

In the end I spent a year relearning Algebra 2 then I continued on in college maths.

 

As a Math teacher with almost 30 years experience I see no benefit from Alg1, Alg 2 then Geometry. 

I see LOTS of benefit in the extra year of mental maturity students gain when they take Alg 1, Geometry then Alg 2.

 

Each year I have several students who take Alg 2 concurrently with Geometry.  Most would have been better off with the extra year before Algebra 2.

[gstharr]

If a student will go on to Pre-Calc then Alg 1, Geometry, Alg 2 is the better option.

Pre-Calc does not have review.  Algebra 2 has review of Algebra 1...

 

I was strong in Algebra and did Alg 1, Alg 2 then Geometry.  I had to drop Pre-Calc.  Geometry only uses Algebra 1 skills.

 

In the end I spent a year relearning Algebra 2 then I continued on in college maths.

 

As a Math teacher with almost 30 years experience I see no benefit from Alg1, Alg 2 then Geometry. 

I see LOTS of benefit in the extra year of mental maturity students gain when they take Alg 1, Geometry then Alg 2.

 

Each year I have several students who take Alg 2 concurrently with Geometry.  Most would have been better off with the extra year before Algebra 2.

 Jann,  this is a little off topic, but would appreciate your opinion.  The 6th grader is 1/2 through Derek Owen Alg.2 (did alg 1 & geometry with TW, and is concurrently redoing geometry through his Math Circle).  We are on track for completing Alg 2, and then a formal SAT prep class before a winter exam.  However, I am rethinking this SAT thing.  Our goal  for the SAT was to re-qualify  him for CTY's 7th grade and above programs, and take a shot at CTY SET by age 13.  However, his recent scores on  the Advanced SCAT qualifies him for all things CTY through H.S. So instead of rushing him through SAT prep just to get the SET award, I'm looking into a full trig, class before precalc.  But opinions are all over the place on the order of,  and necessity of precalc and  trig.  Would you mind sharing your thoughts, particularly on when to take  trig.  thanks.  (BTW he attends school, so he will repeat all of the above eventually)

[kiana]

gstharr, I made it into SET and didn't do a formal prep class. Before you spend time on a prep class, why don't you give him a practice test from the book and see how he does? 

 

I'm not sure why you'd do a full trig class before precalc? Everything that you would normally cover in a full trig class is covered in precalculus. As a matter of fact, most available university texts for trigonometry are simply the trigonometry portion of a college algebra and trigonometry (two-semester precalculus sequence) or the trigonometry portion of a calculus textbook. 

[gstharr]

gstharr, I made it into SET and didn't do a formal prep class. Before you spend time on a prep class, why don't you give him a practice test from the book and see how he does? 

 

I'm not sure why you'd do a full trig class before precalc? Everything that you would normally cover in a full trig class is covered in precalculus. As a matter of fact, most available university texts for trigonometry are simply the trigonometry portion of a college algebra and trigonometry (two-semester precalculus sequence) or the trigonometry portion of a calculus textbook. 

Guess have nothing to lose by just taking the SAT without practice.  My thinking on trig goes back to when I was in H.S.  Trig was the highest math class at any regular H.S, and was a year long class. Then went to calc at college.  pre-calc is new to me.  thanks

[Arcadia]

Does your child prefer algebra or geometry? Mine likes geometry more so they did geometry concurrent with algebra. If there is no preference, geometry before algebra 2 gives time for maturity.

 

 Our goal  for the SAT was to re-qualify  him for CTY's 7th grade and above programs, and take a shot at CTY SET by age 13

My 6th grader just missed the SET math cutoff when he was turning 11 and just started intermediate algebra. He is trying again in June as he want to give it another shot and my older is taking Subject tests on that date. I'll let your child do the seven SAT practice tests on Khan Academy before spending time and money on a formal SAT prep class. My older did qualify for SET with no prep. He did the first SAT practice test on paper and we decided not to spend time prepping for him.

 

As for trigonometry, it is covered in different depth from prealgebra to calculus. From Pythagoras theorem to trigonometry identities to differentiation and integration of trigonometry functions. I do not see a need for a trigonometry class as trigonometry would be covered in school.

 

  

gstharr, I made it into SET and didn't do a formal prep class. Before you spend time on a prep class, why don't you give him a practice test from the book and see how he does? 

 

I agree. There are seven practice tests available on Khan Academy if the child want to do it online while CollegeBoard webpage has the PDF versions of the test, scantron bubble sheet and answer key.

[gstharr]

Thanks to all. 

[kiana]

Guess have nothing to lose by just taking the SAT without practice.  My thinking on trig goes back to when I was in H.S.  Trig was the highest math class at any regular H.S, and was a year long class. Then went to calc at college.  pre-calc is new to me.  thanks

 

4th year high school math used to frequently be called trigonometry/analytic geometry, is now usually called precalculus or advanced math. There's a bit more algebra emphasis but everything's still covered in a 4-yr sequence. If you like DO, do his precalc after algebra 2, it's solid. 

[...................]

I am having the same problem only my son is a 9th grader taking Alg 2 (It looks like you have a type in your OP, do you mean to say he's taking Alg 1 this year?)

 

If I let him do this sequence:

Alg 2 9th

Geometry 10th

Pre-Calc 11th

Calc 12th

 

I believe he will be at a great disadvantage for our trial-run SATs (planned at end of 10th and beginning of 11th) and he will be at a disadvantage for Pre-Calc having spent an entire year forgetting Algebra 1 AND 2!

 

I REALLY regret pushing him forward to Alg 2 (I did that because we are using Saxon) and I wish wish I had him do Geometry this year and ALg 2 in 10th! 

 

But now that we have the situation that we have, we will move forward with Saxon Advanced Math in 10th which includes Geometry, interwoven.

 

I would encourage you to do the traditional sequence and if your son is very committed to the Comp Sci degree, he should probably double up next year, doing ALg 2 and Geometry the same year.  I am not mathy at all and did that back in school, and and I had no real problems.  I mean, yes it would be very hard, but if he's planning on a comp sci degree, that's a very competitive major right now.  He will need to show that he's committed to hard subjects :)

[Jann in TX]

Guess have nothing to lose by just taking the SAT without practice.  My thinking on trig goes back to when I was in H.S.  Trig was the highest math class at any regular H.S, and was a year long class. Then went to calc at college.  pre-calc is new to me.  thanks

 

Most likely your Trig class also contained College Algebra (Algebra 3)... my high school did not use the name 'Pre-Calculus' either.

 

The Lial texts I teach from have a Pre-Calculus text-- they also have a College Algebra/Trig text.  Both are exactly the same except for the name on the cover.  The solutions manual has both names!

[Jann in TX]

 Jann,  this is a little off topic, but would appreciate your opinion.  The 6th grader is 1/2 through Derek Owen Alg.2 (did alg 1 & geometry with TW, and is concurrently redoing geometry through his Math Circle).  We are on track for completing Alg 2, and then a formal SAT prep class before a winter exam.  However, I am rethinking this SAT thing.  Our goal  for the SAT was to re-qualify  him for CTY's 7th grade and above programs, and take a shot at CTY SET by age 13.  However, his recent scores on  the Advanced SCAT qualifies him for all things CTY through H.S. So instead of rushing him through SAT prep just to get the SET award, I'm looking into a full trig, class before precalc.  But opinions are all over the place on the order of,  and necessity of precalc and  trig.  Would you mind sharing your thoughts, particularly on when to take  trig.  thanks.  (BTW he attends school, so he will repeat all of the above eventually)

 

With a younger student I would NOT rush through a typical progression and I would NOT rush for anything concerning the ACT/SAT tests.

 

I suggest going WIDE and DEEP with younger students-- add in a number theory class... lots of math application, computer programming... absolutely nothing to gain by moving through a typical progression just to check boxes (when you have a younger gifted student).

 

...Trig is half of Pre-Calc. 

 

If you have time add in a statistics class (very helpful for CS majors as CS undergrad coupled with a business grad degree combo is in extremely high demand).

 

It is not worth skipping or rushing any level... the majority of errors in Calculus (all levels of it) are at the Algebra 1 level.

 

Also, be prepared for his progression to slow down a bit as he goes through puberty and growth spurts.  Don't pre-plan too much or he can end up feeling like a failure for making a B in a course 4 levels above his age peers!

 

 

 

[gstharr]

With a younger student I would NOT rush through a typical progression and I would NOT rush for anything concerning the ACT/SAT tests.

 

I suggest going WIDE and DEEP with younger students-- add in a number theory class... lots of math application, computer programming... absolutely nothing to gain by moving through a typical progression just to check boxes (when you have a younger gifted student).

 

 

 

Thanks for your cautionary words.  We have taken  trig and SAT prep off the table, and gearing for D.O. pre-calc whenever he finishes alg 2.  Then summer 2018, if he still wants to try for SET, he will take the SAT with only minimal preparation.

 

 

And again thanks to all for explaining precalc.