Saxon 87 taking TOO long! Other prealgebra ideas?

[arcara]

Hi,

 

My son is using Saxon 87 for Pre-Algebra and it takes so long to complete. If you add up the mental math, lesson practice, and mixed practice problems, each lesson has between 50-60 problems. Since they are all different, you can't even choose to only do the odd numbered problems.

 

What can you suggest that is more straightforward? I'm teaching a lot of kids so it has to be easy to use. He's a smart kid and catches on to math easily.

 

Thank you!

[ScoutTN]

Math Mammoth 7?

 

 

[Junie]

How long is it taking him?  You said "too long" but that could be a wide variety of times.

[arcara]

I'd say 1.5-2 hours between the lesson, problems, and corrections with me.

[EKS]

Derek Owens' prealgebra course is excellent.

[Junie]

My dd12 is doing Saxon Algebra 1/2 this year.  It takes her about 1 1/2 to 2 hours also.  Saxon is a super program and we just keep plugging through it.  If she were in school, she would be spending at least this long on math.  (45-60 minutes in class, 45-60 minutes on homework)

 

We don't do mental math, so that must be in a supplemental book that we don't use.

[fourisenough]

Derek Owens or Math Mammoth 7

[....]

I'd say 1.5-2 hours between the lesson, problems, and corrections with me.

 

Well, and my son is doing the extra workbook with it, too (the one with all the math drills)!!   :svengo:

 

We do two things - either we just do half a lesson one day and half a lesson the next (which means we will have trouble finishing the entire book by next school year) OR I just assign some of the problems and we complete the entire lesson.  Two hours of math per day is completely out of the question for my son.  This is the first year he hasn't cried while doing math (he's always struggled with math).  And he's actually doing Saxon willingly...  

 

Choosing which problems to assign is tricky.  I know what he's struggling with and what's easy for him, so I base the problems off that.  Also, if we do a bunch of problems on percentages one day, the next we will focus on something else.  If I see the problem taking a new direction, I'll make sure to include that one.  When I assign which problems to do, I basically have to scour through the lesson and choose.

 

It's the size of a telephone book, so I've already resigned myself to the idea that he may not be able to finish all 931 pages by the end of the school year.  I just looked.  It actually IS 931 pages.   :glare:   If we are mostly through the book by next summer and he has a good handle on fractions, percentages, ratios, etc, I'm just going to let him stop and move onto Algebra 1.  (I realize that's considered heresy on this forum.)  You know, the Algebra text is like a third that size!!  (We have the Algebra text, too.) 

 

We're not changing math programs for him, because this is the first one that he's doing really well with (he's tried everything out there).  I just have to make it work.

[Tenaj]

My 13yods is on Lesson 110 of the 8/7 book and we've just given up getting one lesson done in a day.  We split it over two and call it good.  

 

Does your son need the drill and mental math?  I finally quit having my ds do those sections.  He gets all the mental math right very easily and the drills were really just wasted time for him because he could do them quickly and easily as well as accurately. 

 

That has helped with the time but my ds is dragging because of the need to write out so much of his work.  He loves to do math in his head and hates it now that it's getting to the point that he needs to write out his work in order to follow the logic of the steps.  We're butting heads on this issue but I'm determined to win.

 

If you're interested, My Father's World has lesson plans that do skip some of the problems.  They had a math expert of some kind look through Saxon and determine which problems could be easily skipped without watering down the program. I'm considering getting the plans for Algebra for this ds and seeing if he'll do better if he doesn't have quite so many problems to do each day when we hit the next book.

[SilverMoon]

We were more than happy with Horizons prealg. It's very easy to use. There's instruction right in the student text if they need to look back.

[Reefgazer]

It took my DD about that much time to do 8/7, so that's not that far off typical.  She really is very good with math now, though, and it prepared her well for Saxon Algebra.

I'd say 1.5-2 hours between the lesson, problems, and corrections with me.

 

[....]

 

If you're interested, My Father's World has lesson plans that do skip some of the problems.  They had a math expert of some kind look through Saxon and determine which problems could be easily skipped without watering down the program. I'm considering getting the plans for Algebra for this ds and seeing if he'll do better if he doesn't have quite so many problems to do each day when we hit the next book.

 

I'm definitely buying this!

[PeachyDoodle]

According to Art Reed, homeschoolers shouldn't do all the problems for every Saxon lesson. Saxon was written for use in the classroom. Some of the problems (Warm-Up) were intended to be used to settle the class down and get ready for the lesson, and others (Lesson Practice) were for the teacher to use as instructional problems to explain the concept on the board. Spending time on these is usually the cause of extra-long lessons.

 

We are also using Saxon 87. DD spend five minutes on facts practice (she still needs it), then studies the lesson and works the 30 Mixed Practice problems for the day. It takes her around 45-60 minutes. Later in the morning, we go over the problems and re-work any that she missed. This takes 10-15 additional minutes, max. Rarely I will use the Lesson Practice problems to reinforce a concept that is giving her trouble, and then the total lesson time might be slightly longer. This system is working great for us.

 

YMMV, but definitely check out Art Reed's advice before you do anything else! http://homeschoolwithsaxon.com/newsletterpage-2016.php#0216

[Ellie]

According to Art Reed, homeschoolers shouldn't do all the problems for every Saxon lesson. Saxon was written for use in the classroom. Some of the problems (Warm-Up) were intended to be used to settle the class down and get ready for the lesson, and others (Lesson Practice) were for the teacher to use as instructional problems to explain the concept on the board. Spending time on these is usually the cause of extra-long lessons.

 

We are also using Saxon 87. DD spend five minutes on facts practice (she still needs it), then studies the lesson and works the 30 Mixed Practice problems for the day. It takes her around 45-60 minutes. Later in the morning, we go over the problems and re-work any that she missed. This takes 10-15 additional minutes, max. Rarely I will use the Lesson Practice problems to reinforce a concept that is giving her trouble, and then the total lesson time might be slightly longer. This system is working great for us.

 

YMMV, but definitely check out Art Reed's advice before you do anything else! http://homeschoolwithsaxon.com/newsletterpage-2016.php#0216

 

I can't say how strongly I disagree with him on this. Every.single.problem in every.single problem set is important. Regardless of whether it was written for a classroom or not, all of the problems are important.

 

These comments are from our own Jann in TX:

 

You will get many different answers to this question. There are many here on the boards who only give the odds or evens out...the PROBLEM with this is that Saxon DOES NOT design their program to be used in this manner (many other texts are designed this way). When you skip problems with Saxon you are setting yourself up for trouble later on...the problem sets do not have evenly spaced concepts AND some concepts may look the same to the untrained parent--BUT each problem is actually teaching/testing in a different area. By routinely skipping problems you are missing out on critical review. In most of the series--7/6 and above--the practice problems often DIFFER from the original concept (the one noted by the little number). As the student’s knowledge and experience increases so does their ability to COMBINE concepts. The review problems are often more difficult/complex than the original practice problems.

 

I’m a certified Math teacher--turned homeschool Mother. I have taught/tutored Saxon for over 7 years (1st grade -Advanced Math). The vast majority of the students seeking tutoring in Pre-Algebra and above are those who routinely skipped problems--working only half of the problem set.

 

Skipping problems in the texts below 7/6 MAY work out well for some students as the concepts taught are very basic. From 7/6 on it is very important to work EVERY problem. If the problem set takes ‘too much time’ to do each day most likely the reason is that the student needs MORE practice!!!

 

I have a dd with some learning differences and she has had success working 15-20 problems a day--continuing on the next day without skipping any problems. She completes a little over 3 problem sets a week.

 

Some people are fine with their students making a B in math. It is sad that those students could be making A’s if only they had used the text the way it was designed!

 

It is probably obvious that I am passionate about this issue. When you choose to use a program such as Saxon that is designed with a complex spiral review it is important to use the program correctly--taking shortcuts will only shortchange your child. There may be other math programs where working only 10-15 problems a day is sufficient--but Saxon is definitely NOT one of them.

 

 

From Janet in WA:

Saxon did go to a lot of trouble developing the design of those problem sets. Unlike with most textbooks that just offer lots of practice with the same kind of problem where omitting some of them doesn't have much impact, omitting Saxon problems can mean omitting certain kinds of problems entirely from a day's practice. Also, sometimes several problems in a set are related, and doing each of them helps the child understand the nature of the mathematical relationship (i.e. fractions, decimals and percents).

 

 

And from IdaMay:

 

Like Jann, I am a teacher turned homeschooling mom. I have an education background in curriculum development, as well as testing and evaluation.

 

I, too have seen numerous students struggling, who had been using Saxon and skipping problems. I have not seen many struggling who were using the program as Saxon designed it.

 

As far as getting a “B†instead of getting an “A,†I agree with Jann. But along with this, I would say that the degree to which a student actually learns and the length which a student retains the material is greater when all problems in the problem set are completed.

 

Saxon interweaves so much into the problem set it is hard to demonstrate through words on a screen. Not only are the previous concepts reviewed, but they are expanded and combined with other aspects of math along the way. If you were to go through an entire level of Saxon Math and write down all the problems that related to a certain lesson, you would be amazed to see the progression and the development. Not only that, but Saxon often relates one lesson to another by having the students work problems which relate to each other across the lessons, as review is done. Glance through your answer key [especially easy where the problem set answers are in a chart form]. You will see that there are multiple answers that are the same value, but if you look at the problems you will see that the problems were reviewing or expanding different topics. [but the number answer is the same-- this skill of seeing this within the lesson is great for Algebraic thinking and more] These types of things also help the student see the relationships between percents/fractions/decimals and more.

 

It would be much more helpful to spread the lesson out over more than one day and cover the material a bit slower, than to rush through and skip part of the teaching and learning involved. You may find that your student improves their work time and can easily complete an entire lesson in an allotted time frame. [although I have come across some homeschoolers who try to complete each subject in 30 minutes, which may be unrealistic for the Algebras or higher]

 

None of this is shared to imply anyone is doing their math lessons wrong, but only to share from experience and research what has shown to work or not to work in other situations, so you can make the choice for your student and your home school.

 

[PeachyDoodle]

All three of the posts you quoted refer to skipping problems in the Mixed Practice set. That is 100% NOT what I (or Art Reed) am advocating. The Mixed Practice set (30 problems/day in Saxon 87) is where the spiral review occurs. It is intentionally written so that students practice with a variety of concepts over the course of each lesson. It certainly is detrimental to long-term success to skip problems in that set.

 

HOWEVER, the Lesson Practice section is intended to supply practice on the new concept introduced in that day's lesson. This is also the case with the first 2-3 problems in the Mixed Practice set. If the student understands the concept after reading/being taught the lesson, that understanding will be demonstrated by doing the first 2-3 problems in the Mixed Practice set successfully. The Saxon system is NOT designed for mastery on the first day a concept is introduced -- that same concept will continue to be practiced so that mastery occurs over the next 5-10 lessons. What good does it do for the student who understands and successfully completes 2-3 problems to complete another 6-8 problems on the same concept, especially if doing those problems adds an additional 20-30 minutes or more onto lesson time and is causing the student to become frustrated?

 

Conversely, if the student does not understand the new concept, what good does it do to assign him/her more problems at which to fail? Use the Lesson Practice set to continue to teach the concept -- that's what they were designed for, so that the teacher didn't have to make up his/her own problems or dip into the homework assignment. But don't assign the Lesson Practice as independent work for just for kicks. What student wouldn't become frustrated by that?

 

I'm a strong believer in the spiral approach to mastery in mathematics. It's worked beautifully for my daughter. But this fear-mongering that skipping even ONE problem will mean there's hell to pay down the line does no one any favors -- least of all a frustrated, overwhelmed student. Very few middle school students have the patience or stamina for a 2-hour math lesson every day. If the length of the lesson is the problem, and the student otherwise understands the concepts and can perform well on the Mixed Practice sets and tests, I see no reason why s/he should be subjected to more work than necessary. That's the very definition of busy work.

[...................]

We love horizons. It's also spiral but in chunks- only 4 concepts per day. So you can often cross out extra work without a concern about them missing important review.

 

The explanations are short and to the point. My daughter loves them.

 

However since they are short and to the point, if your child doesn't understand and you get stuck you'll have to ask a friend or look it up on you tube. Luckily my older son is good at math and self teaches so he has jumped in to help us now and then. (I can teach almost all of pre algebra but horizons throws in some very difficult stuff which I couldn't remember such as simplifying radicals)

 

The problem with Saxon (which is also a strengths) is that you can't really safely cross review out since you do not ever know when the that particular concept will ever show up again.

[...................]

And yes I wholeheartedly agree after 8 years of Saxon use, that you really cannot skip Mixed Pactice problems.

[Reefgazer]

I do see what you are saying here, but I use the lesson practice as a way to gauge whether my kids have a grip on the lesson before they jump into the 30 problem set.  It's a way for me to know whether we have to stop and clarify something in the lesson before they are set free to tackle the 30 problems each day.  I don't like them going on and doing something wrong that I can correct early on in the lesson, if possible.

All three of the posts you quoted refer to skipping problems in the Mixed Practice set. That is 100% NOT what I (or Art Reed) am advocating. The Mixed Practice set (30 problems/day in Saxon 87) is where the spiral review occurs. It is intentionally written so that students practice with a variety of concepts over the course of each lesson. It certainly is detrimental to long-term success to skip problems in that set.

 

HOWEVER, the Lesson Practice section is intended to supply practice on the new concept introduced in that day's lesson. This is also the case with the first 2-3 problems in the Mixed Practice set. If the student understands the concept after reading/being taught the lesson, that understanding will be demonstrated by doing the first 2-3 problems in the Mixed Practice set successfully. The Saxon system is NOT designed for mastery on the first day a concept is introduced -- that same concept will continue to be practiced so that mastery occurs over the next 5-10 lessons. What good does it do for the student who understands and successfully completes 2-3 problems to complete another 6-8 problems on the same concept, especially if doing those problems adds an additional 20-30 minutes or more onto lesson time and is causing the student to become frustrated?

 

Conversely, if the student does not understand the new concept, what good does it do to assign him/her more problems at which to fail? Use the Lesson Practice set to continue to teach the concept -- that's what they were designed for, so that the teacher didn't have to make up his/her own problems or dip into the homework assignment. But don't assign the Lesson Practice as independent work for just for kicks. What student wouldn't become frustrated by that?

 

I'm a strong believer in the spiral approach to mastery in mathematics. It's worked beautifully for my daughter. But this fear-mongering that skipping even ONE problem will mean there's hell to pay down the line does no one any favors -- least of all a frustrated, overwhelmed student. Very few middle school students have the patience or stamina for a 2-hour math lesson every day. If the length of the lesson is the problem, and the student otherwise understands the concepts and can perform well on the Mixed Practice sets and tests, I see no reason why s/he should be subjected to more work than necessary. That's the very definition of busy work.

 

[PeachyDoodle]

I do see what you are saying here, but I use the lesson practice as a way to gauge whether my kids have a grip on the lesson before they jump into the 30 problem set.  It's a way for me to know whether we have to stop and clarify something in the lesson before they are set free to tackle the 30 problems each day.  I don't like them going on and doing something wrong that I can correct early on in the lesson, if possible.

 

Sigh. I must not be explaining myself well. As I said in my first post, this is exactly what the Lesson Practice set was designed to do. Those problems are included so that the teacher can provide examples and/or have the students practice (e.g., on the board) without having to make up his/her own examples or dip into the Mixed Practice, where only 2-3 of that problem will be provided on any given day.

 

To be clear, I'm not saying there's anything WRONG with doing all the problem sets. I'm saying that there is no reason an individual student who grasps the concept being taught MUST complete all the sets (as some claim) or risk certain failure at Saxon down the road. Working the Mixed Practice set is sufficient for mastery over time.

 

Look, my dd is a quick study. I rarely have to explain a lesson to her, much less require extra practice. She rarely misses more than one or two problems on a lesson, and even then, 99% of the time she's made a careless error that she picks out herself immediately. I realize not all kids are like that. Some are definitely going to need to work through the problems in the Lesson Practice set in order to demonstrate understanding of the concept. Some will need all the problems some days, a few of the problems on other days, and none of them on still other days. What I'm saying is that insisting that every student must complete every problem in every lesson in order to succeed at Saxon is absurd. And it doesn't do anyone any favors, especially the student. It just makes families that are doing perfectly fine panic and either end up with frustrated students who hate math or opt out of Saxon altogether. The OP is a case in point -- smart student, catches onto the math easily, frustrated because of the time commitment required (because she assumes/has been told he must complete all the problems), and looking to find a new curriculum.

 

[bbhe]

I finally figured out what to do about the fact that Saxon 8/7 lessons took my son far far too long to complete (3 hours???? sometimes) if we did the entire lesson including Facts Drills etc. But by the time I'd figured it out, he was already in Algebra I.  So this is for the parent or child still struggling.

If I had it to do over again, I would do time4mathfacts style gaming to memorize math facts.  I would do any kind of video/fun style memorization tool or card games like in Singapore Math instead of the daily trudge through the wretched math facts.  There's already going to be a sufficient trudge through the lesson and the Mixed Practice. It's not like the rest of the lesson isn't hard enough to build his character/ concentration/ focus.  

Now that we are in A1, I have him do odds or evens each day for the mixed practice (odds for odd numbered lessons, evens for even numbered lessons).  For those of you who are already shocked and offended by this idea, just hold your horses a second.  If he gets only 1 (or 2)wrong, we move on to the next lesson.  If he gets more than a couple wrong, then the following day we do the alternate problems for that same lesson and see if his accuracy improves.  If it doesn't improve, we go to the Lesson for the main problems he's missed (he usually only misses one kind of problem)  and we rework that lesson and do the alternate problem set from this lesson.

I feel like this solution has worked.  After all, if he's making 100s, I'm not sure he needs to do all 30 because that does take a long...long...long time to do all 30 problems.  Some might even say...two times as long.

 

[ScoutTN]

Zombie thread!