Overwhelmed with teaching writing...again

[Mommy to monkeys]

Teaching writing has been my achilles heel. I honestly feel we're strong in every other area...but writing is kind of important.  :crying:

 

This is mainly an issue for my older two children. We've been doing IEW SWI B. This is year two on it.  The instruction is good, but for a couple of reasons Im wondering if I need to do a reality check and go another way.

Firstly, I'm not seeing what is being learned carried over for my son into anything else.  If it's not an IEW assignment, he is still completely paralyzed by writing even a simple paragraph well ( I can relate).

 

Also, while I believe this instruction is solid, the way it's organized is making it very difficult to stay consistent for me. (I mentioned this is the 2nd year working on it, right?)  The DVD lessons are sometimes an hour long....and then other days are sometimes short...it makes me feel all over the place. If my kids are independent, I have no problem with them doing an hour and a half of writing one day and 5 the next.  That's fine.  But if I'm going to be involved, I need each day to require similar amounts of time from me. I know that makes me seem like a crazy person...but I do need that in order to be consistent with ALL my kids.

 

My 11 year old is fine with whatever I ask her to do. She isn't writing phobic like her brother and can crank out a well done narration or essay with no issues (minus intro and conclusions as we haven't covered that yet)

 

We've done sooo many things with writing and I feel sooo wishy washy. Bravewriter, writing in CLE and CTGE, trying to pull assignments together myself (that was a nightmare), IEW etc
I'm considering EIW for my older son. Is there something else that I'm missing? 

[knitgrl]

Teaching writing has been my achilles heel. I honestly feel we're strong in every other area...but writing is kind of important.  :crying:

 

I am sorry I do not have any advice to offer you, but I empathize with you 100%. What you wrote is exactly how I feel, too.

 

[Hunter]

There are so many opinions on what should be taught for writing. I won't even touch that.

 

But if you need no tears lessons that get DONE, Write On! gets done.

http://cathyduffyreviews.com/homeschool-reviews-core-curricula/composition-and-grammar/ungraded-multi-level-resources-composition/write-on

 

Even if you only use it for a few weeks or months, the TM instructions are really good and have influenced how I teach any curriculum now.

 

When someone just doesn't know what to do and is looking to throw a few dollars at the problem, Write On! is my default advice.

[scbusf]

I am sorry I do not have any advice to offer you, but I empathize with you 100%. What you wrote is exactly how I feel, too.

 

 

Add me to this list :crying:

[Hunter]

The current website has a broken link to the free TM, but wayback machine still works.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130926121028/http://www.kid-friendly-homeschool-curriculum.com/Write-On.html

 

The ebook is $10.00 cheaper than it was. Make sure you don't try and order it from the above link.

 

This TM is just awesome teacher training no matter what you use.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Hunter

[Julie Smith]

I personally like IEW. As for the different length of times required, some things I do when I'm not ready to move on (Want to fill in time)

 

1. Rewatch parts of the DVD again whenever I want them to spend more time watching the DVD, but don't want to move on. 

2. Have them reread, outloud old writing projects they have done.  I have them work on reading at a good pace, volume, .. Basically start setting them up for the idea of giving a speech. I also talk about how far they have come in their writing. 

 

 

Once the work is done they email it to someone. Right now that someone is my husband's cousin. She is also an English teacher. In the past once of twice instead of emailing it to someone they called up someone and read it to them over the phone. My Mom and aunt worked well for that job. 

 

ETA: We never watch an hour of the DVD at a time. We always break it up. After about 20 minutes we stop watching no matter what. I find one hour of DVD watching is pointless for my boys. After about twenty minutes the stuff they learned falls out of their brains and gets replaced with nothing. You can always stop the DVD whenever you want, no need to wait for Andrew to tell you to. 

Edited September 19, 2016 by Julie Smith

[Hunter]

Here is the intro and conclusion worksheet that you can use along with the 2 free report lessons in the TM.

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20100209045138/http://www.kid-friendly-homeschool-curriculum.com/Homeschool-writing-contest.html

[8filltheheart]

I would not just randomly select another writing program. I would consider a 13 yr old who cannot easily write a paragraph as having a pretty significant deficit. I would want to proceed with intensive remediation. I would want to start with evaluating exactly what skills need to be targeted.

 

Can he take effective notes? Can he categorize notes according to content? Does he know how to create a cohesive topic sentence? Can he organize his notes into a logically ordered sequence? Can he create an outline based on his notes? Does he know how to use transition words? Etc.

[Mommy to monkeys]

I would not just randomly select another writing program. I would consider a 13 yr old who cannot easily write a paragraph as having a pretty significant deficit. I would want to proceed with intensive remediation. I would want to start with evaluating exactly what skills need to be targeted.

 

Can he take effective notes? Yes. He is capable of taking extremely thorough notes.

Can he categorize notes according to content?

Does he know how to create a cohesive topic sentence? Not without my help

 Can he organize his notes into a logically ordered sequence? Can he create an outline based on his notes? This is where we dropped off with IEW. Fusing notes from multiple sources was a bit overwhelming for him. He was able to do it, but it was extremely slow which he found very frustrating.

Does he know how to use transition words? He does this to a certain extent. But when he writes, it is extremely to the point.

 

He has a near photographic memory for factual information.Ask him a direct question about anything he has read and he can answer it. Writing another thing entirely for him.

 

For years, he did ok. Not fantastic, but ok. When he was working through Climbing to Good English he was able to construct paragraphs, because it gave very STEP-BY-STEP instruction. With an IEW assignment, again, he can complete the assignments with that very micromanaged instruction. WITHOUT all the steps, he is unable to do it. 

Edited September 19, 2016 by Mommy to monkeys

[Mommy to monkeys]

The current website has a broken link to the free TM, but wayback machine still works.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130926121028/http://www.kid-friendly-homeschool-curriculum.com/Write-On.html

 

The ebook is $10.00 cheaper than it was. Make sure you don't try and order it from the above link.

 

This TM is just awesome teacher training no matter what you use.

 

 

Here is the intro and conclusion worksheet that you can use along with the 2 free report lessons in the TM.

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20100209045138/http://www.kid-friendly-homeschool-curriculum.com/Homeschool-writing-contest.html

 

Thanks Hunter. I know I've looked at these samplesonce upon a time, but perhaps I need to revisit this resource.

I personally like IEW. As for the different length of times required, some things I do when I'm not ready to move on (Want to fill in time)

 

1. Rewatch parts of the DVD again whenever I want them to spend more time watching the DVD, but don't want to move on. 

2. Have them reread, outloud old writing projects they have done.  I have them work on reading at a good pace, volume, .. Basically start setting them up for the idea of giving a speech. I also talk about how far they have come in their writing. 

 

 

Once the work is done they email it to someone. Right now that someone is my husband's cousin. She is also an English teacher. In the past once of twice instead of emailing it to someone they called up someone and read it to them over the phone. My Mom and aunt worked well for that job. 

 

ETA: We never watch an hour of the DVD at a time. We always break it up. After about 20 minutes we stop watching no matter what. I find one hour of DVD watching is pointless for my boys. After about twenty minutes the stuff they learned falls out of their brains and gets replaced with nothing. You can always stop the DVD whenever you want, no need to wait for Andrew to tell you to. 

I do like IEW very much. Not getting it done is more MY problem. I will say my 11 year old doesn't enjoy it BUT she has no problems with it. She just naturally writes with most of the things on the checklist already, so most of the time the editing is very quick for her. DS on the other hand spends SOOOO much time planning out every. single. sentence. before he gets it down on paper to make sure he will get everything he needs from the checklist. 

[Hunter]

The more explicit the instructions, the less well the completed assignments prepare the student for future writing. :banghead:

 

I remember how excited I was when I could first afford "good" writing curricula. I looked ahead through all the explicit lessons and imagined my student completing those assignments and assumed that level of writing would carry over into daily life. Imagine my horror as we buckled down and completed many of those lessons and her daily writing deteriorated and she lost ALL confidence in daily writing. It reached  peak a when she asked me to help her write out a birthday card and I knew that was something she had been confidently and happily doing in the past.

 

First do no harm is now my motto.

 

It is pretty easy to convince a student that there is a "right" way to write something. A rigid and narrow way. The more rigid and narrow the instructions, the more sets of instructions we need. Before long, the student has a pile of "right" ways to write things that they must choose from among and apply to the current project. Some students just get defeated and give up.

 

I don't have any magic answers about this one.

 

Children under a certain age are required to be given instruction in composition. At the very least we need to do something. First do no harm. Don't spend money you do not have. Don't use something rigid if it makes your kid stop writing altogether and lose confidence. Don't spend huge amounts of time on something that results in small gains at the expense of doing something else. 

 

Long term default plan? Yes, I do have one. It is mostly do no harm, and mostly free, rather than great. I will post it in my next post. I need to restart my computer first as it is being wonky.

[Mommy to monkeys]

The more explicit the instructions, the less well the completed assignments prepare the student for future writing. :banghead:

 

I remember how excited I was when I could first afford "good" writing curricula. I looked ahead through all the explicit lessons and imagined my student completing those assignments and assumed that level of writing would carry over into daily life. Imagine my horror as we buckled down and completed many of those lessons and her daily writing deteriorated and she lost ALL confidence in daily writing. It reached  peak a when she asked me to help her write out a birthday card and I knew that was something she had been confidently and happily doing in the past.

 

First do no harm is now my motto.

 

It is pretty easy to convince a student that there is a "right" way to write something. A rigid and narrow way. The more rigid and narrow the instructions, the more sets of instructions we need. Before long, the student has a pile of "right" ways to write things that they must choose from among and apply to the current project. Some students just get defeated and give up.

 

I don't have any magic answers about this one.

 

Children under a certain age are required to be given instruction in composition. At the very least we need to do something. First do no harm. Don't spend money you do not have. Don't use something rigid if it makes your kid stop writing altogether and lose confidence. Don't spend huge amounts of time on something that results in small gains at the expense of doing something else. 

 

Long term default plan? Yes, I do have one. It is mostly do no harm, and mostly free, rather than great. I will post it in my next post. I need to restart my computer first as it is being wonky.

Looking forward to this post... I'm not looking for great right now.  I'm looking for "enough".

[Hunter]

Okay, so first, what I am going to write is in context of this. A couple years ago I was talking to my social worker and said something to my social worker about having had a horrible education. She got so shocked and asked what I thought was a good education. She got real philosophical with me instead of technical. A good education makes us useful to others. It helps us self-educate. Stuff like that. I had been really focused on things like my still inconsistent punctuation and other technical things that really don't compare to the bigger issues.

 

Not too long ago, we had been talking about the current breakfast menu offered to the homeless and very poor women in the center's dining room, and how it was more diabetic friendly than it had been. Her eyes narrowed and she asked me how I knew so much about diabetes. I said something along the lines of, "I read a lot of cereal boxes when I finished all the books I scavenged while dumpster diving." and she just shook her head.

 

If I had a "proper" education I wouldn't be as useful as I am. I am so rough around the edges. Some days it is hard for me to throw myself out there and let my rough edges be seen. I just want to hide. But I get up and decide to be brave. My rough edges seldom interfere with my usefulness. If I stop now and focus on the details instead of the big picture, we all lose. I nibble at my rough edges, but prefer to stay focused on the big picture of what I do best that isn't being done by a lot of others.

 

I could stop writing right now. I could study writing curricula instead. I do that sometimes. And then I get a PM from someone and I knock that off and offer what I have. I let it be good enough.

 

Look at the writing here many of us do. It doesn't follow the rules of many of the curricula being used. What is done here is important and it is real. What writing rules do you use here? And elsewhere? Do you routinely break rules to improve your ability to communicate something? I know I do, and that I just did a few sentences ago.

 

And now I am rambling. And instead of fixing that, I am going to post it as it is. Because I want to get to my list and I think I have successfully communicated even if I rambled from the main topic. This is real writing.

[Hunter]

Ruth Beechick's the Three R's is useful far beyond K-3

Checking Your Grammar by Marvin Terban works well with The 3R's

Harvey's Elementary Grammar

Dover's Original 1918 Elements of Style. Also free at Google

https://www.amazon.com/Elements-Style-Original-Language-Guides/dp/0486447987

Ben Franklin's Autobiography. The instructions on writing, virtues, and time management

Writing Tools works well with the Ben Frankin Method

https://www.amazon.com/Writing-Tools-Essential-Strategies-Writer/dp/0316014990/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1474326714&sr=1-1&keywords=writing+tools

or the free online version

http://www.newsu.org/courses/writers-workbench

Writing Tools Quick list without explanations and assignments

http://www.poynter.org/2006/fifty-writing-tools-quick-list/76067/

 

Friendly Letter

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/31/88/e1/3188e11ba91b31bfcf3683e7a20d7724.jpg

Address the envelope

http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/numbers/how-do-i-write-addresses/

 

Report Writing

The free worksheets and TM from Write On! Instructions. 3 Sentence Report. 3 Paragraph Report. Introductions and Conclusions.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130926121028/http://www.kid-friendly-homeschool-curriculum.com/Write-On.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20100209045138/http://www.kid-friendly-homeschool-curriculum.com/Homeschool-writing-contest.html

Research Grid. We just folded large pieces of art paper.

http://www.plattscsd.org/library/library/images/Research%20Grid%20001.jpg

Opening and Closing Statements

https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Product/Opening-and-Closing-Statements-868364

Alterative free opening and closing

http://jimmiescollage.com/downloads/writing/introduction-paragraph-graphic-organizer.pdf

http://jimmiescollage.com/downloads/writing/conclusion-paragraph-graphic-organizer.pdf

Bibliography

http://www.edu.pe.ca/gulfshore/PDFs/bibform.pdf

Titles

http://writing.umn.edu/sws/assets/pdf/quicktips/titles.pdf

 

Poetry. We don't do much of this. To be truthful, this is often something I bring a bored student while locked up in the hospital against her will.

https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Product/25-Types-of-Poetry-123703

or

http://myteacherpages.com/webpages/jgriffin/files/25%20Types%20of%20Poetry.pdf

 

Newspapers in Education. Again this often complements the Ben Franklin method. I don't try and "finish" any of this stuff. But it is there as  a resource and teacher training. Some journalism lessons are more applicable to daily writing than some other types. Students like them. Most do no harm. The newpaper is tactily comforting to some students. Day old papers are free for some students. This is enrichment, not a must do. It balances a curriculum of mostly vintage novels.

http://www.nieteacher.org/#elmsmulti

http://www.nieteacher.org/#journalism

http://nytimesinschool.com/ny-times-teacher-resources/ny-times-newspaper-in-education/

 

NIrV Bible for copywork for Beechick's 3R style lessons. The short sentences consistently follow the Terban punctuation style except for serial commas. 

 

Merriam Webster Concise Large Print Dictionary. I am a little OCD about teaching dictionary respellings. Of all things, right? :lol: A lot of students have enjoyed the lessons because the other tutor told them it is impossible to learn to read dictionary respellings. :confused1: So there was a lot of incentive to learn something she couldn't do.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Hunter

[Hunter]

Writing Tools is so easy to self-educate with that I carried chapters of this book around in my backpack when I was homeless, and stored the rest of the torn up book in a locker at a shelter. And it does no harm. It is instantly applicable to the Ben Franklin Method of self-education. You can use it to improve your writing here at this forum. I've never finished it. I don't care. But it is there when I reread Ben Franklin and am feeling lost in how to apply his method.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Hunter

[Hunter]

Persuasion, thesis, all that stuff is rhetoric level.

 

I now have 2 requirements for full blown rhetoric level studies that involve ME. First that the teacher/student/self-educator or whoever is mentally healthy and not overwhelmed by life. Secondly that the student really is at the rhetoric level.

 

Students that show up at community college comp and grammar 101 with rock solid logic level skills, and no rhetoric training are going to do better than those that never finished logic level skills, are afraid of writing, are not healthy, and were introduced to rhetoric level skills too early and by an exhausted, broke, and ill prepared teacher. Students are under pressure to finish and will hand in crap. Teachers are only given crap. Teachers accept the crap. Life moves on and credits are awarded.

 

I clearly remember my boys' classes. I have seen and sometimes helped with student papers. No I have not mastered rhetoric writing. None of the students I watched ever mastered them at college and passed anyway. I'm just not sweating this stuff anymore.

 

I'm biting off what I can chew and trying to sit down and nibble my through what I can handle. It took me a long time to narrow in on what I can store and keep track of and continually reread as my memory loss requires me to have to review a lot more often.

 

I'll never finish all the above. So *I* certainly don't need more. The above is enough for a lot of real families with real lives. 

[Tiramisu]

The more explicit the instructions, the less well the completed assignments prepare the student for future writing. :banghead:

 

I remember how excited I was when I could first afford "good" writing curricula. I looked ahead through all the explicit lessons and imagined my student completing those assignments and assumed that level of writing would carry over into daily life. Imagine my horror as we buckled down and completed many of those lessons and her daily writing deteriorated and she lost ALL confidence in daily writing. It reached peak a when she asked me to help her write out a birthday card and I knew that was something she had been confidently and happily doing in the past.

 

First do no harm is now my motto.

 

It is pretty easy to convince a student that there is a "right" way to write something. A rigid and narrow way. The more rigid and narrow the instructions, the more sets of instructions we need. Before long, the student has a pile of "right" ways to write things that they must choose from among and apply to the current project. Some students just get defeated and give up.

 

I don't have any magic answers about this one.

 

Children under a certain age are required to be given instruction in composition. At the very least we need to do something. First do no harm. Don't spend money you do not have. Don't use something rigid if it makes your kid stop writing altogether and lose confidence. Don't spend huge amounts of time on something that results in small gains at the expense of doing something else.

 

Long term default plan? Yes, I do have one. It is mostly do no harm, and mostly free, rather than great. I will post it in my next post. I need to restart my computer first as it is being wonky.

I needed to hear this. Thanks.

[Hunter]

What did I most frequently assign for reports with younger DS? You will laugh. Physical education topics. Yup, a report on a sport counts as Physical EDUCATION.

 

Also before doing a lab designed for younger children, I'd have him do some research to beef it up.

[sassenach]

I outsourced writing and it was the best decision I've ever made.

[Mommy to monkeys]

Persuasion, thesis, all that stuff is rhetoric level.

 

I now have 2 requirements for full blown rhetoric level studies that involve ME. First that the teacher/student/self-educator or whoever is mentally healthy and not overwhelmed by life. Secondly that the student really is at the rhetoric level.

 

I'm most definitely overwhelmed with life.  That is just the way it is.  I really would rather him master the basics rather than throw things at him that he just isn't ready for.  My goal for him (and all my kids actually) is to be ready for community college. 

 

I spent the evening looking through links and saving and printing files (thank you, btw, Hunter!)  It's hard not to feel overwhelmed in moving forward. 

The Write On Teacher's Guide made a lot of sense to me. I remember reading it through a few years ago, perhaps? It just wasn't what I thought we needed at the time, but I'm ready for it now. Funny how that works out, isn't it?

We're going to start with lessons 15 and 16 from that at the bottom level and go from there. I KNOW he can do it at that level without a meltdown. He is OCD with sensory issues being taught by a mama with Sensory Issues, high levels of chronic anxiety, and compulsive tendencies. Maybe I should have lead with that part...

 

ANYWAY, thank you again for the links and responses. A lot to look through. A lot to ruminate on.

[8filltheheart]

The more explicit the instructions, the less well the completed assignments prepare the student for future writing. :banghead:

.

I have not found this to be true. It is clearly evident when students have not mastered the basic skeletal structure which is the foundation for academic writing. Many students need explicit instruction in how to organize their thoughts logically and coherently or their writing is nothing more than a meandering stream of consciousness.

 

I have had to get as nitty-gritty as having a child write how-to paragraphs over and over in order for her to focus on logical sequencing. Her writing was pure stream of consciousness prior to this and there was absolutely no logical ordering of her sentences. How-to paragraphs forced her to think about completing tasks in or out of sequence and the resulting outcome.

 

She needed extreme explicit instruction in order for her to understand how sentences work within a paragraph. She needed to focus purely on the skeletal structure--topic sentence, logically ordered supporting details, conclusion--before she could transfer that skill to other writing.

 

Once she mastered logical sequencing, we were able to work on applying those same principles to paragraphs describing chronological sequences. She was then able to progress to describing spatial relationships.

 

Explicit instruction is not a checklist. Explicit instruction should teach students the basic building blocks found in all good writing-- the underlying structure. Once the structure is mastered, the student possesses the essential foundation for instruction on improving their style.

 

Many students need explicit instruction in how to improve the stylistic quality of their writing.

 

Anyway, I believe explicit instruction can be beneficial to helping students improve their writing.

[Hunter]

I am constantly rereading TMs and liking them now, even though I didn't in the past. Or vice versa. Sometimes we truly grow into something. Sometimes we grow out of something. Sometimes we are just adapting to the times and what is in front of us right now.

 

Writing--I just had to get real about what *I* can handle. It used to kill me to see the mess students were handing in for college papers. I thought *I* needed to figure out how to prevent that. It seemed so unnecessary and preventable. I just needed to throw some time and money at the problem and fix it, I thought. Years later, lots of money spent, lots of student and my time spent, a bookcase full of books, and we were still dealing with mess. I started looking at it differently. Teachers expect mess. The world was not ending. Everyone was safe. I decided to chill.

 

Whatever the college teachers were wanting most, they made that clear, and taught the student some of that. Some cared all about the thesis statement and plagiarism. Some didn't even care about that and accepted almost anything.

 

College teachers seemed least likely to teach good enough basic organization. It was complicated or nothing. Folding up a giant piece of paper for the research grid improved student writing considerably and most importantly reduced writer's block. Teachers accept mess, but not unfinished assignments. So I teach the grid. 

 

Teaching writing is like cooking. There is a lot of ways to do it. What works in one environment doesn't in another. Some of us are less picky that others. One cookbook will probably not be THE book for our whole lives, especially if that life is eventful.

 

It is okay to muddle along a bit. The world doesn't end.

 

When the student stops writing even birthday cards because their confidence is so shaken. When yet again I am avoiding posting at forums because I am so ashamed of my writing. Those are the wake up times for me, that I'm taking this all too seriously. That my priorities are out of line.

 

Good enough isn't pretty. I've put a lot of good enough meals on the table. And you know what, some that were not good enough, but it was all I had. And everyone survived.

 

Of course I'll always keep my eyes and ears open for the rest of my life. But I am done searching for writing curricula. I've got some stuff. Most of the time it is good enough. I don't even try to finish it. If a student wants to work on writing, I pull out what I think will help most at the time. Right now, I care more that people are READING. When social worker and I had that talk about my education, my usefulness is entirely based on what I read. Even for my own self-education, I spend more time reading now and far less time worrying about my lackluster skills. Reading is what got me here. Reading is what I think I need to remain focused on.

 

 

[8filltheheart]

This is not a college student. It is a 13 yr old. He has years of living in a secure home with a loving mother to help him master writing. It is not threatening to provide him the instruction he needs to master basic paragraph skills. He needs to master those essential foundational skills first bc all advanced writing is built on them.

 

The reason college teachers are unlikely to teach basic organization in writing is bc the expectation is that those skills are not college level instruction appropriate. The expectation is that those basic skills were mastered long before college.

 

Fwiw, not all college teachers accept or expect a mess. Many want their students to master the skills necessary to be effective communicators. I am not sure why expecting and accepting a mess is ever a worthy sentiment. I applaud teachers who move students beyond where they are by providing them the skills they need to improve.

[Hunter]

We see homeschooled kids grow up and sometimes begin to teach comp and grammar at the college level, express their shock at what is arriving in their classes, and then write homeschool curriculum meant to prevent that. That is what we see and hear about most. Prevent this.

 

What is going on in the other classrooms?

 

I have seen what goes on in some non-selective classrooms. At first I was shocked. It was my firstborn. I wanted better for him. He wanted me to stay out if it and I did. He wanted to get his diploma and to move on with life and not come to a dead stop over something he didn't care about.

 

Then a string more students--my youngest and tutoring students and friends. One young lady a senior on the brink of graduating that was in a manic episode that I matched up with a tutor to deal with getting those last papers done. I was present to watch some of what that tutor did and had the chance to talk to her later. That other tutor had taught at several community colleges for years, mostly biology.

 

What I have learned is that at a lot of colleges the standard is that mess is turned in and accepted and that life doesn't stop over it. Is that the best way? Nope, but I don't cook the best either. Or dress the best. Or try to do the best at a whole lot of things that are not MY priorities.

 

I carefully choose which hills I want to die on now. This isn't a hill I want to die on. Does that mean I do nothing? Hell no! I watched which things made the biggest difference. I watched what moved people forward instead of backward. I made choices. I didn't give up and do nothing.

 

There are "right" ways to do a whole lot of things. And if I try to do all those whole lot of things "right, I am going to fall flat on my face, and not even get good enough done.

 

And love has nothing to do with it. NOTHING. Love pays for and gets done writing curricula? Not!

[8filltheheart]

A loving environment doesn't matter? I disagree bc it means an essential security is already being provided as a basis for working together. Not that it teaches.

 

But, I philosophical totally disagree with you bc the goal isn't to be the best, but it is to enable a child to be the best him. I never approach education as bc others can't or don't, my child doesn't need to. I work to try to find ways that meet them where they are to enable them to succeed at what they are capable of mastering. This child isn't even close to being ready to consider rhetoric. It is an irrelevant conversation. But, it also does not mean that his writing problems are an issue that cannot be worked on directly to improve. It doesn't go from where he is now to attending college and it is ok to turn in a mess.

 

The focus should be on helping him master organization and paragraph skills. At 13, he can master those skills and still learn how to incorporate argumentation in his writing before high school graduation. He is not doomed at 13 to turn in a mess and have mess accepted.

[Hunter]

We have mess, because writing is an art and no art is all that easy to teach. Unlike the visual arts, we have higher expectation for the art of writing. We also disagree about what is "good". People complain about what the masses most frequently do, but we fail to even fully define a common goal, never mind a plan to reach it. That is the way of arts especially.

 

Writing is a form of communication and communication differs among groups and is not static. There is no truly "right" way to write.

 

Academic writing is a very small part of writing. Writing is so much bigger than academic writing. There are homeSCHOOLERS that center their lives and every art around preparing for an almost statistically insignificant goal, but there are also HOMEschoolers who have personal beliefs about the art of writing that have little to do with a burning desire to write a "good" persuasive paper.

 

We have so many different curricula on them market right now because there is so much disagreement. If we go to the library, we can find books on writing written by people healthier and smarter than me that say all I have said and more.

 

It can be comforting to throw a lot of money and time at an academic writing curriculum and complete it without thinking about it. If we are successful people will praise us. But throughout all of history some parents have chosen not to or have been unable to accomplish the praiseworthy.

 

I didn't say love wasn't important. I said love doesn't always result in paying for and completing certain types of writing curricula. Loving parents and teachers sometimes make choices that don't prioritize things that other loving parents and teachers do prioritize. It is not unloving to choose alternatives or to have to accept alternatives.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Hunter

[bluebonnetgirl]

What about the Four Square Writing Method?  I've been eyeing this one for awhile - it looks so visual and user friendly.

 

Anyone using it?

 

http://www.christianbook.com/square-writing-method-grades-with-enhanced/judy-gould/9781429117425/pd/11742X?event=ESRCG

 

http://www.christianbook.com/square-writing-method-grades-with-enhanced/judy-gould/9781429117432/pd/9117432?event=ESRCG

 

http://www.christianbook.com/four-square-writing-method-charts/9781573104326/pd/104329?event=ESRCG

 

[fralala]

I don't know what IEW is asking him to do, because I haven't used that curriculum. But the fact that he is paralyzed when faced with writing a paragraph suggests that he is too preoccupied with the mechanics of it. Even fantastic writers start out with disorganized, jumbled thoughts that don't fit into some neat framework. That's what scissors and paste (or copy and paste) are for. He still has time to figure out academic writing.

 

I know you've already tried Bravewriter and perhaps you didn't like it, but I find what Julie Bogart has to say about the stages of development as a confident writer very convincing. Her podcast about the Jot it Down stage was particularly valuable to me in demonstrating that these stages are not necessarily age-related; in other words, skipping straight to academic writing or writing conventions for a child who doesn't even free-write comfortably might be more difficult and time-consuming than quickly going back to Jot it Down.

[Hunter]

What about the Four Square Writing Method?  I've been eyeing this one for awhile - it looks so visual and user friendly.

 

Anyone using it?

 

http://www.christianbook.com/square-writing-method-grades-with-enhanced/judy-gould/9781429117425/pd/11742X?event=ESRCG

 

http://www.christianbook.com/square-writing-method-grades-with-enhanced/judy-gould/9781429117432/pd/9117432?event=ESRCG

 

http://www.christianbook.com/four-square-writing-method-charts/9781573104326/pd/104329?event=ESRCG

 

I have used 4 Square. Lessons were easy to complete. There was little carry over to daily writing. If you need to check writing off the list, and just want to get SOMETHING done, this would work, but I would recommend Write On!  before 4 Square.

[Hunter]

I don't know what IEW is asking him to do, because I haven't used that curriculum. But the fact that he is paralyzed when faced with writing a paragraph suggests that he is too preoccupied with the mechanics of it. Even fantastic writers start out with disorganized, jumbled thoughts that don't fit into some neat framework. That's what scissors and paste (or copy and paste) are for. He still has time to figure out academic writing.

 

I know you've already tried Bravewriter and perhaps you didn't like it, but I find what Julie Bogart has to say about the stages of development as a confident writer very convincing. Her podcast about the Jot it Down stage was particularly valuable to me in demonstrating that these stages are not necessarily age-related; in other words, skipping straight to academic writing or writing conventions for a child who doesn't even free-write comfortably might be more difficult and time-consuming than quickly going back to Jot it Down.

 

 

:iagree:

 

I've only skimmed one Brave Writer book. I'm sure I would agree with much the author has to say. I cannot afford the books, especially when I'd mostly be buying them to just to have someone smarter and healthier than me validate what I am already thinking.

 

Maybe I'll see if the library has them. I prefer quoting authors of expensive bulky curricula to saying I just thought up something myself. Let them take the hit for saying it instead of me.

 

I was thinking, today, as I was walking to an errand that sometimes adopting the goals of others means not pursuing our own passions.

 

My oldest used to ask me to get out of his way. He had goals. I didn't think they were as worthy or realistic as mine. As time passed, I realized he was right and I was wrong. If I had gotten my way, he wouldn't have been financially independent and on the other side of the country during the divorce.

 

He took every short cut. He wrote mess by everyone's standards, even his own. He was clear he didn't care though. "A 'proper' paper isn't my goal; it's yours," he said. His goal was to pass. I told him that wasn't acceptable. He ignored me. Thank God he did.

 

Climbing to Good English doesn't include Persuasive Writing. Not because it isn't rigorous enough. But because persuasion isn't a goal of worth to a non-resistant people. The progym ends with persuasion, That is a classic way and one way to structure a writing scope and sequence. To say persuasion is the only pinnacle isn't wide enough to me. This is a big world.

 

In the 80's and 90's as I watched homeschoolers choose curriculum. Those oldschoolers had less pressure to conform to what was said to be most profitable. Back then many people afforded a house, car, and health insurance on a general high school diploma. The American dream was not dependent on persuasion and calculus. People felt safe enough to have other ideas. Fear is limiting.

 

I wonder. Okay. So we are now told that including persuasion and calculus into the curriculum results in  higher likelihood of a house, car, and health insurance. Is this true, though? Or does it backfire in some way.

 

There are groups that sometimes try to enact laws for things like car seats on airplanes. But then other groups say that carseats would increase the price of tickets and many families would choose to drive and driving long distances is riskier than flying.

 

Is making persuasion and calculus a priority actually going to result in a car, house, and health insurance? It seems to me that many homeschoolers are working so much harder, abandoning their passions, and still not getting the rewards they were promised.

 

And back to love. The Amish LOVE their children. But they choose not to teach persuasion. They just have other priorities for writing. Other. Not lesser. Just other.

[8filltheheart]

I have been homeschooling since the early 90s and I teach mostly without any standard curriculum. My posts have nothing to do with "pressure" from outside. I am someone who completely ignores what is taking place inside of a traditional classroom.

 

My concern for the OPs son is entirely based on the fact that organizing thoughts and writing paragraphs are skills that should be mastered by 13 yr olds. All writing, academic or otherwise, requires logical organization. This is a 13 yr old who cannot create a topic sentence. Again, a topic sentence is not a formal, unnecessary skill. All good writing is organized by cohesive thoughts. These are significant deficits for a middle schooler. It can be dismissed as not a problem or it can be addressed as one. The OP is the only one that can decide how to proceed. But, yes, I adamantly and fervently believe that this is a problem. This is not about calculus or persuasive writing. This is about developing basic elementary level writing skills.

 

Does the OP need to stress out? No. But, if he were my child, I would not just jump into a different writing program. I would want to target specific skills.

 

Mommy to Monkeys, I have been trying to think of a resource that a 13 yr old would not find too babyish. You might read through https://archive.org/details/schoolcompositi00johngoog and see if you think it would be helpful.

Edited September 20, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[Hunter]

I did not say YOU were pressured from outside.

 

8, you and I come from different worlds. I think some things are somehow being lost in translation. You keep thinking I mean things I don't mean. I think the gulf between our worlds is just too great for us to be able to discuss some things.

 

But I am going to add that there are many respected writing teachers/authors that do not believe in teaching topic sentences. We have had threads here about that. It was trying to write a birthday card with topic sentences that was one of the things that messed one of my students up so badly.

 

 

 

 

[Mommy to monkeys]

The focus should be on helping him master organization and paragraph skills. At 13, he can master those skills and still learn how to incorporate argumentation in his writing before high school graduation. He is not doomed at 13 to turn in a mess and have mess accepted.

Yes. In sitting down with him and helping him write today, it was clear that his major issue is organizing what he wants to put down. That is where we need to start. 

 

I don't know what IEW is asking him to do, because I haven't used that curriculum. But the fact that he is paralyzed when faced with writing a paragraph suggests that he is too preoccupied with the mechanics of it. Even fantastic writers start out with disorganized, jumbled thoughts that don't fit into some neat framework. That's what scissors and paste (or copy and paste) are for. He still has time to figure out academic writing.

I think Andrew Pudewa is a great writing teacher. And the process of taking notes via keywords and retelling has been useful to my son. It's that checklist that's been crippling. And as we've gone on and on more is added to the checklist. So instead of being able to get content down on paper, he overwhelmed with where he's going to get a "who-which clause" in or making sure he has the variety of sentence starters required, varying lengths of sentences etc etc.  When the checklist was very short, it wasn't a huge ordeal. But it progressed into taking him over an hour to write a single paragraph.  Truly. Now, the finished product reads at much higher level than anything else he's written. But now he just absolutely hates writing even more than he did before.

 

I know you've already tried Bravewriter and perhaps you didn't like it, but I find what Julie Bogart has to say about the stages of development as a confident writer very convincing. Her podcast about the Jot it Down stage was particularly valuable to me in demonstrating that these stages are not necessarily age-related; in other words, skipping straight to academic writing or writing conventions for a child who doesn't even free-write comfortably might be more difficult and time-consuming than quickly going back to Jot it Down.

Honestly, I love the concept of Bravewriter and a lot of the things she says have helped some with my daughter, but it seemed more whole to parts to me whereas my son needs parts to whole.  One step at a time.  Every time we attempted Free writes, he was just miserable.  He looked near tears and he is no crier. None of my kids love free writes very much, but they would just stick something in their free write about how mean mom is to make them do it. NOTHING like that from him.  I thought IEW would be a good fit for him.  Step by step. But I honestly am questioning it. Is it me and my consistency? Or is it the program? Both?  I don't know. 

 

 

Mommy to Monkeys, I have been trying to think of a resource that a 13 yr old would not find too babyish. You might read through https://archive.org/details/schoolcompositi00johngoog and see if you think it would be helpful.

I printed a couple lessons from this last semester when we needed an IEW break and it really went okay. Not sure why we didn't use it more? I think I needed to get back to the super expensive writing program that I bought....

I know I'm a huge part of the problem here.  I have sooo many resources around and I'm not sure how to utilize what we need without jumping all over the place.

 

We sat down together and did the sample from Write On! that Hunter linked to. So, he did the 3 sentence report and then built a paragraph off of each sentence.  He had no problems coming up with the topics. And he had no problem writing coherent paragraphs once I had helped him with the notes for each paragraph as well as assuring him he was able to scrap the checklist and just write for this assignment. 

 

I'm not entirely sure what our next step should be. Practicing more of the same?

 

Last night I read through the Write On sample.  Tonight I'll go and read a few more lessons in school composition.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Mommy to monkeys

[Julie Smith]

We use IEW. We watch the videos with Andrew. But we don't use the checklists. We discuss the ideas behind them. But we never worry about making sure we use them all, all the time. As long as we use the things he just discussed I'm good. If I notice a problem such as all sentences beginning the same I point that out and we work on that issue.

 

If the checklists are making things difficult then drop them. If your child has trouble with one thing, add in that one part of the checklist. If he hasn't used a smilie or metaphor in some time suggest during the editing he try to find a place to add one. I see the purpose of the checklist as a guideline of ideas of how to make the writing more interesting, not as laws that must be followed.

[Susan in TX]

I just started Essentials in Writing with my 13yo. I like it because I don't feel qualified to teach writing AT ALL. All the instruction is on the dvd. It is not the most exciting thing to watch but the teaching is clear, and to the point. I am watching it with my daughter and learning things as well. I think this would work well with a reluctant writer who needs explicit instruction.

 

Susan in TX

 

 

[MerryAtHope]

Essentials in Writing worked really well here too, and opened up my son's ability to write. He is one that responds well to direct, incremental instruction. The videos were short (usually about 5 minutes), and then they practiced a concept that had been modeled. It helped that the instructor models mistakes and changing one's mind while writing--my son needed to see that modeling (from someone other than just mom, LOL!). We ended up using levels 7-11 (one of the few writing curricula that I used for more than a year). Here's a review I wrote when we first used it. (I keep meaning to update but haven't yet!) 

 

Anyway, hope you find something that helps :-).

[Pistachio mom]

I am really liking Sharon Watson's writing books: Jump In - for Middle School  and The Power in Your Hands for high school.  These books are helping my students learn how to communicate well with writing. They are written to the student. I read it outloud to my students and we talk through the activities. Often I make substitutions. It is the best writing program I have used so far.

 

Check out the free chapter PDF's on the authors website. They sold the books to me. It is what we needed.

https://writingwithsharonwatson.com/jump-in/

https://writingwithsharonwatson.com/the-power-in-your-hands/

 

This author gives free writing prompts a few times per months, as well as free PDF tutorials. I think this course is really well structured.

[AspenSong]

We, too, often skip items on the IEW checklists.  Some of the dress-ups are easy to include, like -ly words and quality adjectives, but if we can't fit in a who-which or because clause without difficulty or awkwardness we don't bother.  I would agree with how Julie Smith described her use of the checklists as almost more of a guideline.

 

I definitely need help in teaching my kids to write, at least for now, and I have to say that I couldn't be happier with the quality of their writing since starting IEW...but we definitely tailor it to fit what works best for us.

[8filltheheart]

In sitting down with him and helping him write today, it was clear that his major issue is organizing what he wants to put down. That is where we need to start....

 

he did the 3 sentence report and then built a paragraph off of each sentence. He had no problems coming up with the topics. And he had no problem writing coherent paragraphs once I had helped him with the notes for each paragraph as well as assuring him he was able to scrap the checklist and just write for this assignment.

 

I'm not entirely sure what our next step should be. Practicing more of the same? .

Definitely get rid of the checklist. That checklist is purely a fabrication to help with stylistic techniques. (I am not a fan, but some people swear by it for helping their kids. It obviously isn't helping yours, so leave it behind without any qualms. His methodology doesn't work well here bc that is not how I teach. So I am familiar with it, but I don't use it.)

 

If it were me, I wouldn't even open a writing book at this point. I would simply focus on the same skills I quoted above via constant repetition until he has mastered them.

 

I would do something like I describe here: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/239259-bringing-karens-mention-of-essay-writing-to-a-new-thread/?p=2363523

 

This stage begins when .... the child is ready to start synthesizing greater amounts of information. Because of their ages (meaning concrete vs abstract thinkers) and the need of the child to still concentrate on the writing process itself, etc., I try to keep these assignments purely factual in nature. This is a great time to start writing research books or reports. I usually start out with research books because there is no need for a formal introductory paragraph, body, conclusion, and all the transitions that go along with them.

 

I let my children choose a broad topic of interest and we make a trip to the library. I look through the books before they start reading them and then I point out different topics that they might encounter in their reading. We discuss how to take notes on note cards by giving the cards a common heading for common topics, etc. We discuss which subtopics within the topic they might want to write about. I let them spend about a week reading information and taking note cards. After they have collected their note cards, we sit together and organize all their information. Some topics they may have to eliminate b/c there simply isn’t enough info. Others may need to be broken into further sub-categories b/c they have too much info. I do not expect them to be able to do this by themselves when they first start. Just like all the other writing skills….they need guidance in the beginning. This is a skill that they need to learn with your help.

 

After the note cards are organized, I have them write a paragraph on each sub-topic and compile them altogether in a chapter book complete with title page and table of contents. Some of my kids like art and I let them illustrate them. I don’t make them do this if they don’t want to. ;)

 

This project may take a few weeks. We review each paragraph together just like we have been all along. Over the course of this year (or two years….depends on how the child’s skills progress), I do expect them to start doing an initial edit/revision on their own.

 

After a few chapter books, most kids are able to start writing reports quite painlessly. Creating a topic paragraph really isn’t a big deal when you know how to write the body…..isn’t that all the “chapters†in their books are?? Transitions are easily taught because the foundation is there and all they need to do is incorporate them. The same goes for a concluding paragraph.

Bc it is open-ended, you can choose topics that matter to you both. My kids are normally younger at this stage, so often the subjects are purely interest/delight-directed. At 13 I would not necessarily go that route. I would probably focus on content from subjects currently being studied. I would print up short related articles specifically targeting the topic. I would start off with sitting with him and reviewing the articles. (I would probably print up 3 on the same topic.) I would read one per day with him and discuss what points are noteworthy and what points aren't. Then, Imwould show him how to make notecards with short titles and how to take notes on the notecards.

 

I would repeat that over 3 days (encouraging similar titles for similar content) and on day 4 sit with him and show him how to organize his notes into similar categories. Use those categories to create a visual outline by stacking the notecards together in logical order. I would help him create a controlling topic sentence, write an outline, and then have him write the paragraph.

 

What you choose for topics can be as simple and as complex as you choose. Obviously, my recommendation would be to start off with simple topics and gradually progress to more complex ones. Say he is studying astronomy, he could create a multi chapter "book." He could have chapters on the solar system, the sun, stars, space exploration, Space X, etc. Start with the simple concepts first. Writing factual paragraphs on different categories of planets and their characteristics is easier than writing about space exploration and the goals of Space X.

 

Hth

Edited September 21, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[jgrabuskie]

Okay. So he can write under a structured format, but not freely.

 

I think it is a confidence issue. There is not a writing program with a structure to hold his hand. I would use one of the topics he needs to write on. Then either brainstorm or just write sentences. Then organize the sentences into a paragraph as a rough draft. Edit/Proof and then finalize. For a couple of assignments in each subject, I would help him along but not use a formula approach directly. Help brainstorm, or organize brainstorming into categories.

Another way to get paragraphs started is with graphic organizers. They look less intimidating than a blank piece of paper.

 

If that doesn't work, look into Dysgraphia and the inability to get words down on paper.

 

The problems I have read about IEW is that it is very formula driven and you can tell from most writings who used IEW (?). Good or bad it is an opinion.

Edited September 21, 2016 by jgrabuskie