Is this discalcula?

[shadah]

This is my post I posted on the main board. It was suggested I put it here. We have since started mep math and she loves it. We started with year 2, so it is very easy for her. She likes the different ways of looking at things. I looked at Singapore and it was not something I think we can work with. MM is too busy. The best math we did was with a vintage math book that used dominos to illustrate numbers. I would draw the domino on a blank page and then we would exhaust all the ways you could make that number by using all four operations. The book we were using did a different method for numbers higher than ten and completely lost her. I wonder if that made sense to her because we were looking at dots and not numerals.

 

I need a math program that is:

Black and white

Clean pages

Mastery

Works on number sense- ex. What is four? 4 objects, two groups of two, etc.

 

Dd needs to map, draw, diagram, graph .... every number to understand. For example, 2x4 is not just 8. It is 2+2+2. It is our family and the neighbors. It is dots lined up but also dots randomly placed. It is 2x5-2. How does it compare to 10? What if we had a number system based on 12? You get the idea. She has to see every angle for one problem before moving on.

 

She cannot work with manipulatives. Too distracting. Pencil and paper diagrams or pictures. She loves word problems. Words make sense. Numerals have no meaning. She can memorize anything. That's not the problem. Conceptually she needs every angle, every piece for it to make sense.

I originally thought discalcula, but I think it is more creative thinking. Something is not done until we have exhausted the ways we can look at it.

Please tell me someone has seen this before. What did you do?

[kbutton]

Dd needs to map, draw, diagram, graph .... every number to understand. For example, 2x4 is not just 8. It is 2+2+2. It is our family and the neighbors. It is dots lined up but also dots randomly placed. It is 2x5-2. How does it compare to 10? What if we had a number system based on 12? You get the idea. She has to see every angle for one problem before moving on.

 

She cannot work with manipulatives. Too distracting. Pencil and paper diagrams or pictures. She loves word problems. Words make sense. Numerals have no meaning. She can memorize anything. That's not the problem. Conceptually she needs every angle, every piece for it to make sense.

I originally thought discalcula, but I think it is more creative thinking. Something is not done until we have exhausted the ways we can look at it.

Please tell me someone has seen this before. What did you do?

 

I do not know all the ways that dyscalculia presents. I would say that much of what I put in bold also characterizes my kiddo who has autism spectrum disorder and ADHD, but your DD appears to have an even stronger need for these things than he does. He can move forward without understanding every angle, but it WILL undermine something later on to not have that extra foundation.

 

My son needs both the "big picture" idea of where we are going with things and the details in fairly step-by-step fashion after that. 

[Plink]

Is this only an issue with math?  If so, then yes, discalculia could be the culprit.  If not then, as kbutton mentioned, there are global issues that probably need to be addressed.  

 

My child with dyscalc. is unable to accurately count 8 objects without physically moving them, yet she can do long division with ease.  She can't work with money, yet can find the area of a circle.  She doesn't understand how to add without counting from 1, yet is able to multiply fractions.  All that to say, it is a mysterious and tedious disability.  Each child will present a bit different, but the general issue is not understanding WHY numbers work.  Your method of teaching all of the why and how sounds like a fantastic method for addressing the core deficits.  

 

Check out Ronit Bird's materials

Edited September 12, 2016 by Plink

[Innisfree]

I was the one who suggested dyscalculia. I was responding to when you said numbers didn't make sense, and the examples of needing to see "4" demonstrated in lots of different ways.

 

Based on what you said above, though, it isn't entirely clear to me. Does she *want* to play with each number and explore every aspect of it? Is she doing this from a sense of fun? Or because she can't understand it without that exploration?

[PeterPan]

Ronit Bird has a website and Facebook page, and on one of them she posted a link to a university that has created a dyscalculia (number sense) screening tool.  My ds has SLD math (dyscalculia) and ASD, and he does not have the aggressive need/drive you describe.  I think, like Kbutton says, that it's more attributable to brightness and that she's trying to wrap her brain around things but having some difficulty.  Could be vision, central coherence, etc.  I think a psych eval would be reasonable to get it sorted out, since at the very least you're describing ADHD and outside the realm of expected for her age and IQ.  So based on the discrepancy alone, I would get evals, yes.

 

I think you're pursuing it the correct way, doing things in lots of ways.  We use Ronit Bird, yes.  But as for whether it's an SLD or something else showing up, get evals.  No need to wait at this point.

 

As a bonus, get her eyes checked by a developmental optometrist.

Edited September 12, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[shadah]

I do not know all the ways that dyscalculia presents. I would say that much of what I put in bold also characterizes my kiddo who has autism spectrum disorder and ADHD, but your DD appears to have an even stronger need for these things than he does. He can move forward without understanding every angle, but it WILL undermine something later on to not have that extra foundation.

 

My son needs both the "big picture" idea of where we are going with things and the details in fairly step-by-step fashion after that.

So how do I teach math in a big-picture way? And yes, she is driven. She doesn't have a love of math, but is very passionate about words. She is studying 5 languages currently. Very motivated, but not necessarily for fluency. It is just a fascination with words. I've wondered if numbers are just not important enough to her?

I've been wondering about the parts to whole or whole to parts thing. She needs sequential, orderly work. I never though about how to present the whole first and then sequential. Maybe that's why the pages I made for her made more sense? We had the number and multiple ways to look at it.

[Heathermomster]

This is my post I posted on the main board. It was suggested I put it here. We have since started mep math and she loves it. We started with year 2, so it is very easy for her. She likes the different ways of looking at things. I looked at Singapore and it was not something I think we can work with. MM is too busy. The best math we did was with a vintage math book that used dominos to illustrate numbers. I would draw the domino on a blank page and then we would exhaust all the ways you could make that number by using all four operations. The book we were using did a different method for numbers higher than ten and completely lost her. I wonder if that made sense to her because we were looking at dots and not numerals.

 

I need a math program that is:

Black and white

Clean pages

Mastery

Works on number sense- ex. What is four? 4 objects, two groups of two, etc.

 

Dd needs to map, draw, diagram, graph .... every number to understand. For example, 2x4 is not just 8. It is 2+2+2. It is our family and the neighbors. It is dots lined up but also dots randomly placed. It is 2x5-2. How does it compare to 10? What if we had a number system based on 12? You get the idea. She has to see every angle for one problem before moving on.

 

She cannot work with manipulatives. Too distracting. Pencil and paper diagrams or pictures. She loves word problems. Words make sense. Numerals have no meaning. She can memorize anything. That's not the problem. Conceptually she needs every angle, every piece for it to make sense.

I originally thought discalcula, but I think it is more creative thinking. Something is not done until we have exhausted the ways we can look at it.

Please tell me someone has seen this before. What did you do?

I am a little confused.  If she needs to map, diagram, and graph to answer math problems, then why state that pencil and paper diagrams are distracting?  

 

Dominoes are manipulatives, BTW.

 

Your DD sounds like she has a maths SLD or possibly something like NVLD to me, but only testing with a Ph.D. Neuropsychologist can tell you that.

 

Can she read a clock?  

 

Geodob is the resident dyscalculia expert.  Maybe contact him directly.  Also, maybe read the book How the Brain Learns Mathematics by David Sousa.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Heathermomster

[shadah]

Ronit Bird has a website and Facebook page, and on one of them she posted a link to a university that has created a dyscalculia (number sense) screening tool. My ds has SLD math (dyscalculia) and ASD, and he does not have the aggressive need/drive you describe. I think, like Kbutton says, that it's more attributable to brightness and that she's trying to wrap her brain around things but having some difficulty. Could be vision, central coherence, etc. I think a psych eval would be reasonable to get it sorted out, since at the very least you're describing ADHD and outside the realm of expected for her age and IQ. So based on the discrepancy alone, I would get evals, yes.

 

I think you're pursuing it the correct way, doing things in lots of ways. We use Ronit Bird, yes. But as for whether it's an SLD or something else showing up, get evals. No need to wait at this point.

 

As a bonus, get her eyes checked by a developmental optometrist.

We've had vision evaluated. It was hard to get anybody to take it seriously. They said her vision was good and didn't see anything more serious. We were sent to two different specialists. She had almost perfect vision but could only read if it was large print. And I mean large, like 24pt. That has in the last year gotten better. She can read normal size type now without strain.

My brother is ADHD. I'm not seeing that in her, but maybe I don't really know what to look for. She has sensory issues - hates certain fabrics, chews on things constantly.

I feel like lately I'm getting to know her better. Partly because she started expressing herself more, but also partly because I've been stepping back and observing. It was very revealing to me to discover that her fascination with languages has nothing to do with communicating with people.

Sorry for the rambling. I'm still trying to figure this kid out.

[shadah]

I am a little confused. If she needs to map, diagram, and graph to answer math problems, then why state that pencil and paper diagrams are distracting?

 

Dominoes are manipulatives, BTW.

 

Your DD sounds like she has a maths SLD or possibly something like NVLD to me, but only testing with a Ph.D. Neuropsychologist can tell you that.

 

Can she read a clock?

 

Geodob is the resident dyscalculia expert. Maybe contact him directly. Also, maybe read the book How the Brain Learns Mathematics by David Sousa.

I meant she prefers pencil and paper. I drew two squares with dots, sort of like a domino would look like. Sorry for the confusion.

[Heathermomster]

Vision needs be evaluated by a COVD certified vision therapist (VT).

 

Sensory needs to be evaluated by a SIPT certified OT.

 

 

[Heathermomster]

Definitely get her tested.  Dominoes have dots which may be counted.  Manipulatives like c-rods have no indication about their numeracy besides their color.  

[Plink]

Your more recent posts make it sound like she may have more of an obsessive/control issue than a learning issue. I'd have her tested by a neuropsych. They have the ability to test for Autism and other spectrum disorders like NVLD, and they are able to pick apart where learning disabilities differ from personal learning preferences. The process is time consuming and expensive, but the info you get back is life changing.

[kbutton]

We've had vision evaluated. It was hard to get anybody to take it seriously. They said her vision was good and didn't see anything more serious. We were sent to two different specialists. She had almost perfect vision but could only read if it was large print. And I mean large, like 24pt. That has in the last year gotten better. She can read normal size type now without strain.

My brother is ADHD. I'm not seeing that in her, but maybe I don't really know what to look for. She has sensory issues - hates certain fabrics, chews on things constantly.

I feel like lately I'm getting to know her better. Partly because she started expressing herself more, but also partly because I've been stepping back and observing. It was very revealing to me to discover that her fascination with languages has nothing to do with communicating with people.

Sorry for the rambling. I'm still trying to figure this kid out.

 

You aren't rambling. Before you get testing, take lots of notes. This stuff is significant. You want to give them anything and everything that gives them some insight.

[PeterPan]

We've had vision evaluated. It was hard to get anybody to take it seriously. They said her vision was good and didn't see anything more serious. We were sent to two different specialists. She had almost perfect vision but could only read if it was large print. And I mean large, like 24pt. That has in the last year gotten better. She can read normal size type now without strain.

My brother is ADHD. I'm not seeing that in her, but maybe I don't really know what to look for. She has sensory issues - hates certain fabrics, chews on things constantly.

I feel like lately I'm getting to know her better. Partly because she started expressing herself more, but also partly because I've been stepping back and observing. It was very revealing to me to discover that her fascination with languages has nothing to do with communicating with people.

Sorry for the rambling. I'm still trying to figure this kid out.

 

Sounds like she needs an eval by a developmental optometrist.  You go to COVD to find one.

 

Yes, you have a bunch of red flags there.  Have you ever looked at the DSM criteria for autism?  If you go to an autism clinic, they can do a multi-factored eval, running speech, OT, psych, etc., all in one place.  

 

The things you're describing are not appropriate behaviors for her age and are very concerning.  I would definitely get evals.  

Edited September 13, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Tiramisu]

She sounds like a very interesting girl but there are things about her you don't understand that could potentially be frustrating for both of you. I recommend not waiting and trying to get to the bottom of it because over time the frustration part could get bigger and shadow all those cool things about her.

 

I agree with finding a neuropsych to get a full picture of her challenges. Meanwhile, look over the diagnostic criteria for autism spectrum disorder as well as articles by Tony Attwood in what ASD looks like in girls.

[heartlikealion]

Is this only an issue with math?  If so, then yes, discalculia could be the culprit.  If not then, as kbutton mentioned, there are global issues that probably need to be addressed.  

 

My child with dyscalc. is unable to accurately count 8 objects without physically moving them, yet she can do long division with ease.  She can't work with money, yet can find the area of a circle.  She doesn't understand how to add without counting from 1, yet is able to multiply fractions.  All that to say, it is a mysterious and tedious disability.  Each child will present a bit different, but the general issue is not understanding WHY numbers work.  Your method of teaching all of the why and how sounds like a fantastic method for addressing the core deficits.  

 

Check out Ronit Bird's materials

 

I haven't been tested, but I have suspected dyscalculia in myself for a couple of years. I tend to disagree with this statement, but take my word with a grain of salt. As you said dyscal. can manifest in different ways, but I don't think that the why is necessarily the issue. Like if someone gives me a phone number, I have so much trouble remembering the numbers, and remembering them in the right order. It's not an understanding of numbers tripping me up. If someone gives me a mental math problem I have trouble doing it because of visualizing it in my head and keeping the numbers there while I figure out the steps. I don't know how to explain, but it's not that I don't know how subtraction works. I got good grades in math, too.

[PeterPan]

I haven't been tested, but I have suspected dyscalculia in myself for a couple of years. I tend to disagree with this statement, but take my word with a grain of salt. As you said dyscal. can manifest in different ways, but I don't think that the why is necessarily the issue. Like if someone gives me a phone number, I have so much trouble remembering the numbers, and remembering them in the right order. It's not an understanding of numbers tripping me up. If someone gives me a mental math problem I have trouble doing it because of visualizing it in my head and keeping the numbers there while I figure out the steps. I don't know how to explain, but it's not that I don't know how subtraction works. I got good grades in math, too.

 

You're describing low working memory. 

[Tiramisu]

I haven't been tested, but I have suspected dyscalculia in myself for a couple of years. I tend to disagree with this statement, but take my word with a grain of salt. As you said dyscal. can manifest in different ways, but I don't think that the why is necessarily the issue. Like if someone gives me a phone number, I have so much trouble remembering the numbers, and remembering them in the right order. It's not an understanding of numbers tripping me up. If someone gives me a mental math problem I have trouble doing it because of visualizing it in my head and keeping the numbers there while I figure out the steps. I don't know how to explain, but it's not that I don't know how subtraction works. I got good grades in math, too.

.

 

I think this is a good example of how the right help can make a difference, Not saying that you got help, but to show that if even if there is a glitch ( or two or three) success is possible and the right accommodations can help move things in the right direction.

[geodob]

Behind math, is our ability to recognise patterns.

Where perhaps you could consider how you recognise a visual pattern?

 

Where you first recognise the pattern as a whole.

You can then look for the elements that make up the pattern?

But what you will actually look for, are patterns within the pattern.

 

The crucial issue, is that you will automatically connect the common elements together.

You wont have to look around for the same elements?

Your Spacial thinking, can automatically link them together.  

To form what we call a 'pattern'.

But we can recognise a pattern, without knowing the word.

 

Though what we know as 2, 3 and 4 ?

Are patterns of objects, that we can automatically recognise.

The words that we name them with, that we call numbers?

Are no more than names.

In the same way, that red, blue and yellow are just names.

Which are meaningless, if we haven't seen these colours?

 

With Dyscalculia, people don't see these patterns.

So that while they can learn the names and symbols of these patterns, called numbers.

It is similar to learning the names of colours, without seeing them?

While they learn that, blue + yellow = green.

Their is no sense behind it.

[Heathermomster]

Geodob, are there sub-types to dyscalculia?  I recall reading about dyscalculia sub-types somewhere online a few years back.

[Pen]

This is my post I posted on the main board. It was suggested I put it here. We have since started mep math and she loves it. We started with year 2, so it is very easy for her. She likes the different ways of looking at things. I looked at Singapore and it was not something I think we can work with. MM is too busy. The best math we did was with a vintage math book that used dominos to illustrate numbers. I would draw the domino on a blank page and then we would exhaust all the ways you could make that number by using all four operations. The book we were using did a different method for numbers higher than ten and completely lost her. I wonder if that made sense to her because we were looking at dots and not numerals.

 

I need a math program that is:

Black and white

Clean pages

Mastery

Works on number sense- ex. What is four? 4 objects, two groups of two, etc.

 

Dd needs to map, draw, diagram, graph .... every number to understand. For example, 2x4 is not just 8. It is 2+2+2. It is our family and the neighbors. It is dots lined up but also dots randomly placed. It is 2x5-2. How does it compare to 10? What if we had a number system based on 12? You get the idea. She has to see every angle for one problem before moving on.

 

She cannot work with manipulatives. Too distracting. Pencil and paper diagrams or pictures. She loves word problems. Words make sense. Numerals have no meaning. She can memorize anything. That's not the problem. Conceptually she needs every angle, every piece for it to make sense.

I originally thought discalcula, but I think it is more creative thinking. Something is not done until we have exhausted the ways we can look at it.

Please tell me someone has seen this before. What did you do?

 

 

"Numerals have no meaning."

  Sounds like discalculia,

 

But

 

 

"For example, 2x4 is not just 8. It is 2+2+2. It is our family and the neighbors. It is dots lined up but also dots randomly placed. It is 2x5-2. How does it compare to 10? What if we had a number system based on 12?"

 

Sounds like unusually deep mathematical thinking.

[PeterPan]

You *can* have math SLD *and* be gifted in math. 

[geodob]

Heather, you asked: 'are there sub-types to dyscalculia?'

 

Where it can be understood in relation to being Blind, and the spectrum of Vision Disorders as sub-types.

 

Dyscalculia is a form of 'spacial blindness', which makes one unable to concieve of different sized quantities, and recognise different sized groups.

Where different brain regions, work together to enable a conception of different sized quantities.

So given that different brain regions are involved at this first level.   A 'disorder' with any of these brain regions, will effect the ability to concieve of quantities.

So that we should look at these different brain regions, as 'sub-types'?

Where I have a particular research interest, in the developmental process of each region?

 

But from concieving of different sized quantities?
The next stage, is to learn to associate the symbols and sounds that we call numbers, with different sized quantities.

Though their is small part of the temporal lobe, that links sounds/ symbols, to quantities.

(Alongside it, is another small part, that links letters to sounds)

So that disorders in either of these?  

While one can concieve of quantities, and sounds.

Also know the symbols of numbers and letters.

They are unable to link numbers with their quantity, or sounds with letter.

So this is another 'sub-type'.

 

But then, while one may concieve of quantities, and can associate symbols/ numbers with them?

The next step, is to be able to use these symbols/numbers, to do mental math calculations?

Which critically involves holding multiple numbers in one's mind, as the calculation is worked through.

 

Uses a combination of Visual working memory, Auditory working memory, and Spacial working memory.

Firstly, numbers are held in the mind, as visual images.   Which changes a string of words, into a single image.

From thirty seven, to 37.

But if one hasn't developed their ability to 'Visualise'?

Then this can result in a Dyscalculia sub-type.

 

Yet the mental math calculation process?

Use Spacial thinking, to manipulate the mental images of numbers.

Where a 'carried number', is actually spatially carried in the mind.

Usually to the 'above left'.

 

But with a Spacial thinking difficulty? A 'carried number', can't be placed in position to later be found.

So that becomes another sub-type of Dyscalculia.

 

Where we could also add, Dysgraphia and the fine motor skills to write clear numbers and order them all correctly on the page.  As a calculation is written down.

 

So that coming back to; 'are their sub-types of Dyscalculia'?

It might rather be termed as, 'How many sub-types of Dyscalculia, are there?'

[PeterPan]

Today my ds was asking me which was lighter, a gnat or a zebra or an elephant.  To him it seemed like a reasonable question!  He just has no sense of numbers, quantity, etc., so to say this is one pound and this is 2000, it's just all mushy to him.  But I thought it was bright that his brain was trying to figure it out!  We've done it with linear measurements, but we haven't done it with weight.