Good explanation of why over-taxing the rich is not a good idea.

[Renee in NC]

Personally, I never called him a terrorist. I have always called him a socialist, not just today:001_smile:. It is not desperation, it is called scrutinization and any candidate for the Presidency should be able to withstand it. For crying out loud, I have to submit my diploma to the school district in order to homeschool. Why shouldn't Obama be required to submit real documentation as to his birthplace, his medical records, and his college transcripts? If he has nothing to hide and would like to put some of these "smears" to rest then man-up and put all the evidence on the table.

 

And, Bill, this rant is not against you, it is against your candidate. I hope that we can still agree to disagree. You are one of my favorites;)! What do your chickens think of all this?

 

 

There are copies of his birth certificate all over the internet - what other records are you suggesting? Even if he HAD been born somewhere else, his mother was American and therefore he is an American citizen. Is there a question to the authenticity of his birth certificate?

 

What medical records and why? This is a new one I haven't heard.

 

I don't understand why they won't release his college transcripts, but I can't imagine that his grades were any worse than Bush's, McCain's, Kerry's, or Gore's - seems that none of them were great students!:lol: He had to have had at least a 2.0 to graduate from Columbia. He did manage to graduate in the top 10% of his Harvard Law School class.

[Spy Car]

And, Bill, this rant is not against you, it is against your candidate. I hope that we can still agree to disagree. You are one of my favorites;)! What do your chickens think of all this?

 

Thank you Soph, you are the best.

 

Listen, I just went and polled the hens (who I'd assumed were sitting this election out) but to my surprise they each said:

 

bar-RACK bar-RACK bar-RACK :lol:

 

PS I don't think comparing school transcripts or health condition (or even talking about "foreign-births") is really where McCain supporters want to go.

Just friendly advice :D

 

Bill (who is looking forward to tonight's debate)

[Alenee]

I've been thinking about this for a while and here's how I see the upset that liberals have when Obama is called a Socialist. I actually don't understand why that upsets them. If you (a dem/liberal) don't like how the Constitution is written, just say so. If you stand by your beliefs, be proud that your beliefs are defined as "socialist". But to outright deny that Obama is leaning toward socialism when everything he's doing *clearly* falls under the definition of socialism, you're kidding yourself and your claims then hold no weight.

 

I'm proud to be a conservative. My beliefs would be defined as conservative. Obama's beliefs are defined as socialist. It's just pure fact. Sure, the cons. use it in a derogatory sense but if you're a dem/liberal, you use words for us too that from your pov are derogatory. Sometimes you nail it. Just as the word "socialist" nails it for Obama. The definitions and actions on Obama's part speak for themselves. There's no harm in admitting the truth...but denying it just pokes holes in every argument you have.

[Renee in NC]

I've been thinking about this for a while and here's how I see the upset that liberals have when Obama is called a Socialist. I actually don't understand why that upsets them. If you (a dem/liberal) don't like how the Constitution is written, just say so. If you stand by your beliefs, be proud that your beliefs are defined as "socialist". But to outright deny that Obama is leaning toward socialism when everything he's doing *clearly* falls under the definition of socialism, you're kidding yourself and your claims then hold no weight.

 

I'm proud to be a conservative. My beliefs would be defined as conservative. Obama's beliefs are defined as socialist. It's just pure fact. Sure, the cons. use it in a derogatory sense but if you're a dem/liberal, you use words for us too that from your pov are derogatory. Sometimes you nail it. Just as the word "socialist" nails it for Obama. The definitions and actions on Obama's part speak for themselves. There's no harm in admitting the truth...but denying it just pokes holes in every argument you have.

 

He belongs to the Democratic Party, though, not the Socialist Party. Brian Moore is the Socialist nominee. If they thought that Barack Obama was socialist, why would they have nominated their own nominee?

[Alenee]

He belongs to the Democratic Party, though, not the Socialist Party. Brian Moore is the Socialist nominee. If they thought that Barack Obama was socialist, why would they have nominated their own nominee?

 

I guess that's just my point. Most in the Dem. party are more socialist leaning. Heck, I don't believe either candidate belongs in the category they claim. I just don't know what party would be right for McCain because imo, he just isn't a Rep. I'm totally willing to admit that. I just think that all this upset over the word "socialist" on the part of the dems/liberals is unfounded. Again, if you don't like the Constitution and want it changed, embrace your beliefs...stop denying what is clearly seen.

[Renee in NC]

I guess that's just my point. Most in the Dem. party are more socialist leaning. Heck, I don't believe either candidate belongs in the category they claim. I just don't know what party would be right for McCain because imo, he just isn't a Rep. I'm totally willing to admit that. I just think that all this upset over the word "socialist" on the part of the dems/liberals is unfounded. Again, if you don't like the Constitution and want it changed, embrace your beliefs...stop denying what is clearly seen.

 

:lol: I can't agree or disagree with your statement without agreeing or disagreeing with the constitution. So, if you are Republican, you believe in the constitution, but if you are Democratic, you don't?

 

(FTR, I am a republican and I have NEVER voted for a Democrat except for local elections because their aren't any other choices LOL.)

[Alenee]

:lol: I can't agree or disagree with your statement without agreeing or disagreeing with the constitution. So, if you are Republican, you believe in the constitution, but if you are Democratic, you don't?

 

No, not necessarily. There are all sorts that belong to either side who don't totally stand for the Constitution. However, as I see it, the Rep.'s are far more on the side of upholding the Constitution.

[laylamcb]

 

Bill (who is looking forward to tonight's debate)

 

Wow. Wish I could say the same, Bill. I nodded off several times during the last debate, and I'm not one to nod off when there is any visual medium available to me. I'll have to chug a Red Bull for this one!

 

My $.02 on the socialism angle: Unless conservatives are prepared to disavow Dubya as one of their own, I don't think that they have a leg to stand on calling Obama a socialist. For good or ill, Bush just essentially nationalized the banks, which in my book is a hallmark of socialism. (Plus, I've got a litany of grievances against Bush that aren't relevant for the purposes of this discussion but that make it that much easier for me to throw him to the wolves. :D)

 

Now, please understand that I AM a conservative (crunchy though I may be) in the traditional sense of the term. I reserve the right to call Obama a socialist if I so choose...but only because I am willing to unabashedly proclaim that President Bush is no conservative. So there. :001_smile:

[laylamcb]

I guess that's just my point. Most in the Dem. party are more socialist leaning. Heck, I don't believe either candidate belongs in the category they claim. I just don't know what party would be right for McCain because imo, he just isn't a Rep. I'm totally willing to admit that. I just think that all this upset over the word "socialist" on the part of the dems/liberals is unfounded. Again, if you don't like the Constitution and want it changed, embrace your beliefs...stop denying what is clearly seen.

 

I think I know what you're saying, Carli (maybe I don't, and if not, please forgive me), but I think I still disagree. McCain may or may not be a conservative or a strict constitutionalist or whatever, but I would say that he is a Republican. I wouldn't have said so years back. (This is why I really wanted to vote for him in 2000 and really don't want to vote for him now.) Obama may or may not be a socialist or a less strict constitutionalist, but I would say that he is a Democrat. Both of these guys essentially embrace their respective party's platform.

 

The problem for me is that I'm NOT a Republican or a Democrat. :001_smile: The more closely the candidates align themselves with the platforms, the more they appeal to the parties' bases--and the less they appeal to independents and other folks like me.

[Saille]

I believe Obama was at least partially raised a Muslim. His step-father was one and the paper work from his school in Indonesia reports his religion as Muslim. There are childhood friends of his that are still in Indonesia who remember playing with him in the mosques. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I've known a lot of Muslims over the years and they are fine, upstanding people that I have been proud to know. I do believe that now he is a Christian. But, to me it's a non-issue what ones religion is. Although, why he is so adamant about wanting people not to know that he was around Muslims growing up is an issue for me. I just don't get why he would feel he has to hide that and I find it dishonest. But, whatever, it's his choice.

 

Well, I do appreciate the way you're phrasing things, because I'm getting tired of the discussion being parsed in a way that comes down to denying Muslim connections as if being Muslim is inherently bad.

 

That said, in a country full of mosques, why wouldn't he be in them? Why wouldn't Muslim be the default check box, or what an areligious mom checked, simply because it was the only religion practiced by anyone in her home? I've attended MOMS Club meetings, Holistic Moms Club meetings, Scout meetings, etc., that were held in various churches, but that didn't make me a Christian, so why would playing in a mosque make Obama a Muslim? Lots of families practice more than one religion, or only have one religious member, so I can also envision a situation in which his step-father attended the mosque while Obama played outside...that doesn't make him Muslim either.

 

I don't think he's hiding it; in fact, I think he feels (as I do) that his experiences have given him a much broader perspective than the average Presidential candidate - indeed, American, has. I think he'll be far more nuanced in his foreign policy as a result, and I think he'll do as he's done consistently...identify and hire whip-smart people who can do the same. Regardless of where you come down on the issues, I think it's pretty clear at this point that his campaign staffers are the best around. I like a person who knows how to tell good advice from bad, take it as much as possible, and disagree when necessary. O/T, but true. I guess my point is that I don't think he'd have been blindsided by the Sunni Shi'ite issue, for example. He'd have known, or he'd have found someone who knew.

 

As far as the college transcript issue, I'm unconcerned. You don't get to head up the Harvard Law Review b/c you're so cute.

 

Did anyone see the Frontline profiles last night?

[Melissa in FL]

Have you read his books or have you merely "researched" him online by visiting various right wing websites? I have read his books as well as his website and found everything I ever wanted to know (and then some). I know you people are scared of terrorists and scared of socialists and scared of Muslims. I ask that you really look into that fear and ask yourself if it's legitimate.

 

I love this country and I firmly believe that should we endure another attack from extremist Muslims (or socialists! ;) ), we will still be the greatest country on earth. If we destroy ourselves (by removing our privacy rights, allowing torture, buying into the propoganda from talk radio ala Nazi Germany) in an attempt to never be attacked again than we we will no longer be that great nation. That's a real fear of mine. And I do think its legitimate.

 

 

Margaret

 

Wow, I'm a "you people" now? Yes, I have read his books, and Yes, I have read his website. And I have done a lot of research of my own. I don't believe in just taking someones word on something as important as electing the President. I am not scared of him, or Muslims or terrorists. Please go back and reread what I wrote. I said I believe he is a Christian today, I'm taking his word for it because I can't see into his heart. I've repeatedly said I believe he loves this country and will do the best in his opinion for this country. I've said I've had plenty of friends that were Muslim (I used to live in Detroit where there is a huge population of Muslims). They don't scare me, they are wonderful people and Islam is a great religion. Yes, some take out only what they want from the teachings and warp it, as has been done to the Bible in times past. I'm not scared of Socialists, I just don't want our country moving that direction.

 

I'm glad you have formed a opinion based on only his writing. I will not do that. I am teaching my children to research ideas, people and what goes on from many different sources, as many orginal sources as possible. I believe this is call Classical education, I remember reading something about it in the Well Trained Mind books. This is what I'm doing with this canidate. This is how I have formed My opinion on Barack Obama. I am not basing my opinions on fear, but on knowledge about the subject. I have stated over and over that these are my opinions based on what I have researched. To be honest I don't go on "right-wing websites" for my information, I find it baised.

Melissa

[Peek a Boo]

My $.02 on the socialism angle: Unless conservatives are prepared to disavow Dubya as one of their own, I don't think that they have a leg to stand on calling Obama a socialist. For good or ill, Bush just essentially nationalized the banks, which in my book is a hallmark of socialism. (Plus, I've got a litany of grievances against Bush that aren't relevant for the purposes of this discussion but that make it that much easier for me to throw him to the wolves. :D)

 

Now, please understand that I AM a conservative (crunchy though I may be) in the traditional sense of the term. I reserve the right to call Obama a socialist if I so choose...but only because I am willing to unabashedly proclaim that President Bush is no conservative. So there. :001_smile:

 

lots of conservatives have made that same observation about Bush AND McCain :D

 

and i do think there's a difference between being a Socialist and having socialistic policies, but looking at the Socialist Party platform, i think there's more the Democratic party has in common w/ them than the Republican party, altho i like their idea of abolishing the Patriot Acts :D

[laylamcb]

lots of conservatives have made that same observation about Bush AND McCain :D

 

and i do think there's a difference between being a Socialist and having socialistic policies, but looking at the Socialist Party platform, i think there's more the Democratic party has in common w/ them than the Republican party, altho i like their idea of abolishing the Patriot Acts :D

 

Agree with you from start to finish, Peek. :001_smile:

[Spy Car]

Wow. Wish I could say the same, Bill. I nodded off several times during the last debate, and I'm not one to nod off when there is any visual medium available to me. I'll have to chug a Red Bull for this one!

 

Let's say I learned the lesson not to hoist one every time McCain says "my friends". My first (and last) "debate game". :D

 

My $.02 on the socialism angle: Unless conservatives are prepared to disavow Dubya as one of their own, I don't think that they have a leg to stand on calling Obama a socialist. For good or ill, Bush just essentially nationalized the banks, which in my book is a hallmark of socialism. (Plus, I've got a litany of grievances against Bush that aren't relevant for the purposes of this discussion but that make it that much easier for me to throw him to the wolves. :D)

 

Thank you, you put it better than I did. The moves taken this week could arguably be called "socialistic", but does anyone really believe President Bush is a "Socialist"? I don't.

 

Nor do I believe Barack Obama is a "Socialist".

 

Now, please understand that I AM a conservative (crunchy though I may be) in the traditional sense of the term. I reserve the right to call Obama a socialist if I so choose...but only because I am willing to unabashedly proclaim that President Bush is no conservative. So there. :001_smile:

 

What does that mean "crunchy"? Honestly, I don't know.

 

You can call Obama a socialist. It is your First Amendment right. And this "liberal" loves our country and our Constitution.:patriot:

 

I just don't think it is very descriptive or accurate.

 

If Obama is a socialist, then I think you'd have to conclude every president since FDR (Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, G.H.W. Bush, Clinton, and G.W. Bush) is a socialist. Because each of these presidents (and the vast majority of Americans) have supported social safety-nets (such as Social Security) and a role for government involvement in a "mixed economy".

 

I'm just old enough to remember the tail end of the "red-scare" and outfits like the John Birch Society, which accused anyone who was "liberal" with being a "communist" and claimed they didn't love the country, or believe in the Constitution.

 

So when I read things like:

 

If you (a dem/liberal) don't like how the Constitution is written, just say so. If you stand by your beliefs, be proud that your beliefs are defined as "socialist".

 

It reminds me of the dark days of McCarthyism. When political opponents would stoop to questioning others patriotism and their fidelity to our Constitution. Then and now, such charges are a vicious slander.

 

Being called a "Socialist" or socialist in this country (unlike, say Europe) is not a "technical" descriptive. In our political context it is a very loaded term that has very negative "code-word" value. So, should you decide to use the term to refer to "liberals", be aware it will be taken as a term of insult.

 

All the best (and mean that :001_smile:)

 

Bill

Edited October 15, 2008 by Spy Car

[Melissa in FL]

I guess we sort of agree on most of it. I do think it should give him a unique perspective on world events. The Koran has some wonderful teachings in it and we could all learn from them. But, I guess we disagree on whether or not he embraces this aspect of his past. I've tried to listen to everything he has said, and I've never heard him talk about these teaching, or even discussions in his home. I've only seen him try to distance himself from any Muslim connection (not really hiding it, just dismissing it). I've never said he was a Muslim, just that I believe he was very much around it.

 

In his book he speaks about his mom being told that he was making faces during Koranic studies. Well, OK, he was sitting there at Koranic studies. He should embrace that part of his past, not try to dismiss it. I think you are right, he has such an opportunity to show us what a unique understanding of Islam he has, but he does not do it. And I find the way he has handled it to be dishonest. Again, this is my belief only. I don't understand why he dismisses it.

 

As I have said, it is not only this issue (in fact, to me this is a small issue that has turned bigger than I feel it is in this thread) it's all these issues from his past that he has distanced, disassociated, etc himself from.

 

Melissa

 

Well, I do appreciate the way you're phrasing things, because I'm getting tired of the discussion being parsed in a way that comes down to denying Muslim connections as if being Muslim is inherently bad.

 

That said, in a country full of mosques, why wouldn't he be in them? Why wouldn't Muslim be the default check box, or what an areligious mom checked, simply because it was the only religion practiced by anyone in her home? I've attended MOMS Club meetings, Holistic Moms Club meetings, Scout meetings, etc., that were held in various churches, but that didn't make me a Christian, so why would playing in a mosque make Obama a Muslim? Lots of families practice more than one religion, or only have one religious member, so I can also envision a situation in which his step-father attended the mosque while Obama played outside...that doesn't make him Muslim either.

 

I don't think he's hiding it; in fact, I think he feels (as I do) that his experiences have given him a much broader perspective than the average Presidential candidate - indeed, American, has. I think he'll be far more nuanced in his foreign policy as a result, and I think he'll do as he's done consistently...identify and hire whip-smart people who can do the same. Regardless of where you come down on the issues, I think it's pretty clear at this point that his campaign staffers are the best around. I like a person who knows how to tell good advice from bad, take it as much as possible, and disagree when necessary. O/T, but true. I guess my point is that I don't think he'd have been blindsided by the Sunni Shi'ite issue, for example. He'd have known, or he'd have found someone who knew.

 

As far as the college transcript issue, I'm unconcerned. You don't get to head up the Harvard Law Review b/c you're so cute.

 

Did anyone see the Frontline profiles last night?

[Margaret in GA]

Wow, I'm a "you people" now? Yes, I have read his books, and Yes, I have read his website. And I have done a lot of research of my own. I don't believe in just taking someones word on something as important as electing the President. I am not scared of him, or Muslims or terrorists. Please go back and reread what I wrote. I said I believe he is a Christian today, I'm taking his word for it because I can't see into his heart. I've repeatedly said I believe he loves this country and will do the best in his opinion for this country. I've said I've had plenty of friends that were Muslim (I used to live in Detroit where there is a huge population of Muslims). They don't scare me, they are wonderful people and Islam is a great religion. Yes, some take out only what they want from the teachings and warp it, as has been done to the Bible in times past. I'm not scared of Socialists, I just don't want our country moving that direction.

 

I'm glad you have formed a opinion based on only his writing. I will not do that. I am teaching my children to research ideas, people and what goes on from many different sources, as many orginal sources as possible. I believe this is call Classical education, I remember reading something about it in the Well Trained Mind books. This is what I'm doing with this canidate. This is how I have formed My opinion on Barack Obama. I am not basing my opinions on fear, but on knowledge about the subject. I have stated over and over that these are my opinions based on what I have researched. To be honest I don't go on "right-wing websites" for my information, I find it baised.

Melissa

 

 

I didn't mean "you people" in a bad way, more of a "that one" way. ;)

 

Look, I just sense a lot of fear coming from you (and not just you, but lots of folks on this board). I just understand that that fear is being constantly stoked by Rush and Hannity and Fox news. Maybe I'm wrong and you don't listen to right wing radio or watch Fox news and if that's so, I apologize. But, when I tune into that stuff, I can see why people are so scared. I'm just here to say that Obama doesn't have to answer every silly question that people throw at him. His not answering stupid questions doesn't mean he's hiding something. For example, he has never answered the question, "are you a hermaphrodite?" Does that make him one because he won't dignify that with a response?

 

You'll have to forgive me, but after years of having people question my patriotism because I've been against the Iraq War, I am a little tired of hate speech and fear tactics. It's not you, it's just my fatigue. I'm glad to get a view from the other side on this board. God Bless America!

 

Margaret

[kokotg]

I've been thinking about this for a while and here's how I see the upset that liberals have when Obama is called a Socialist. I actually don't understand why that upsets them. If you (a dem/liberal) don't like how the Constitution is written, just say so. If you stand by your beliefs, be proud that your beliefs are defined as "socialist". But to outright deny that Obama is leaning toward socialism when everything he's doing *clearly* falls under the definition of socialism, you're kidding yourself and your claims then hold no weight.

 

 

 

I am not upset that anyone is calling Obama a socialist for supporting a progressive tax structure (which is what this thread is about) as long as they are also willing to go on record calling Teddy Roosevelt, every president since Teddy Roosevelt, 85% of American economists, and nearly every country in the world socialist. Are you willing to do that? If not, you're kidding yourself. Or at least completely misunderstanding economic theory and political history. Which parts of the Constitution do you feel Democratic economic positions are at odds with?

[Melissa in FL]

Thank you for responding Magaret. I've always respected your opinion and enjoy reading your posts. I admit I took your first post as an attack, but looking back I realize I shouldn't have.

 

Really, I have no fear of Obama as President. I would prefer McCain win, but I'll respect who ever holds the office. I do listen to talk radio, but more of Glen Beck, Dave Ramsey, and a local guy who I can't remember his name. I like how Glen Beck has interviewed and respects the opinions of third party candidates. Not that I agree with everything he says (I don't consider myself mindless) but I enjoy his show and the callers he puts on.

 

I do watch Fox, but I tend to switch between Fox and MSNBC. At least that's what I did for the DNC, RNC and the debates. I find them both biased, but I do find Fox less so. I think Brit Hume has done a good job staying impartial and I think Fox is more honest in telling what their reporters backgrounds are and letting the viewer add a grain of salt to the reporters bias. I find CNN boring in contrast. I found it interesting in how excited the MSNBC reporters were during the DNC and how different they were during the RNC. I loved when the commentator at FOX had tears in his eyes after Obama spoke at the DNC and talked about how amazing that moment was to the black community and America in general (I teared up listening to him and agree at what an historic moment it was).

 

When I have to label myself, I call myself a libertarian. I live in a swing state though and won't vote third party in a national election. If people think Palin isn't qualified, who would want Wayne Allen Root as VP? Although, I thought his homeschooled daughter gave a fantastic speech at their convention.

 

I think we all have bias that we bring with us that are hard to overcome, but I won't take any one persons word on anything. I really try hard to leave emotion out of the equation and think logically about the issues. I guess I'm trying to explain all this so you see I'm not just following other people's lead, but forming my own opinion based on my research and beliefs. I hope you and others will accept that and try to understand "the other side".

Melissa

 

I didn't mean "you people" in a bad way, more of a "that one" way. ;)

 

Look, I just sense a lot of fear coming from you (and not just you, but lots of folks on this board). I just understand that that fear is being constantly stoked by Rush and Hannity and Fox news. Maybe I'm wrong and you don't listen to right wing radio or watch Fox news and if that's so, I apologize. But, when I tune into that stuff, I can see why people are so scared. I'm just here to say that Obama doesn't have to answer every silly question that people throw at him. His not answering stupid questions doesn't mean he's hiding something. For example, he has never answered the question, "are you a hermaphrodite?" Does that make him one because he won't dignify that with a response?

 

You'll have to forgive me, but after years of having people question my patriotism because I've been against the Iraq War, I am a little tired of hate speech and fear tactics. It's not you, it's just my fatigue. I'm glad to get a view from the other side on this board. God Bless America!

 

Margaret

[Zelda]

Let's say I learned the lesson not to hoist one every time McCain says "my friends". My first (and last) "debate game". :D

 

 

 

Thank you, you put it better than I did. The moves taken this week could arguably be called "socialistic", but does anyone really believe President Bush is a "Socialist"? I don't.

 

Nor do I believe Barack Obama is a "Socialist".

 

 

 

What does that mean "crunchy"? Honestly, I don't know.

 

You can call Obama a socialist. It is your First Amendment right. And this "liberal" loves our country and our Constitution.:patriot:

 

I just don't think it is very descriptive or accurate.

 

If Obama is a socialist, then I think you'd have to conclude every president since FDR (Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, G.H.W. Bush, Clinton, and G.W. Bush) is a socialist. Because each of these presidents (and the vast majority of Americans) have supported social safety-nets (such as Social Security) and a role for government involvement in a "mixed economy".

 

I'm just old enough to remember the tail end of the "red-scare" and outfits like the John Birch Society, which accused anyone who was "liberal" with being a "communist" and claimed they didn't love the country, or believe in the Constitution.

 

So when I read things like:

 

 

 

It reminds me of the dark days of McCarthyism. When political opponents would stoop to questioning others patriotism and their fidelity to our Constitution. Then and now, such charges are a vicious slander.

 

Being called a "Socialist" or socialist in this country (unlike, say Europe) is not a "technical" descriptive. In our political context it is a very loaded term that has very negative "code-word" value. So, should you decide to use the term to refer to "liberals", be aware it will be taken as a term of insult.

 

All the best (and mean that :001_smile:)

 

Bill

 

I haven't called anyone a socialist although I wouldn't hesitate to do so if I felt it were accurate. And I certainly mean for it to be outright negative. No decoder ring required.

 

I have said that the bail-out was steering us in the direction of socialism and my disappointment with it extends to the Bush administration and John McCain. I do feel that Obama's policies veer sharply in the direction of socialism even if he and his supporters feel that they can enforce these policies and maintain democratic ideals. I disagree that they can keep the camel out of the tent once they let him put his nose inside. (FLL anyone?)

[lovemyboys]

Look, I just sense a lot of fear coming from you (and not just you, but lots of folks on this board). I just understand that that fear is being constantly stoked by Rush and Hannity and Fox news. Maybe I'm wrong and you don't listen to right wing radio or watch Fox news and if that's so, I apologize.

 

God Bless America!

 

I had to respond. Melissa has done a good job in expressing her views.

 

Isn't it possible that people who don't support Barack Obama and who have done a lot of research and who have informed opinions aren't hanging on Rush Limbaugh's every word? :tongue_smilie:

 

It's just possible that we've noticed that Barack Obama is coasting now, he's trying to stay very noncontroversial. It's possible that we've researched the gaps in his biopic at the convention. It's possible that we've noticed what he says when he's unscripted, when he's responding to questions -- that more of his actual views come out, and we don't like what we hear. It's possible that we wonder why he voted "present" rather than casting an actual vote to be held to his record later. It's possible that we wonder why he's distancing himself from a number of very questionable, recent and close associations. It's possible that we wonder why other people aren't wondering about this too.

 

Why, if we don't opt for Obama's kind of change, are we assumed to be hate-mongering idiots slavishly following right-wing radio talk jocks? Perhaps you didn't mean it as an insult, but similar comments have been made here.

 

We are homeschooling parents, afterall, so we must be an inquiring sort of crew. ;)

[Renee in NC]

Why, if we don't opt for Obama's kind of change, are we assumed to be hate-mongering idiots slavishly following right-wing radio talk jocks? Perhaps you didn't mean it as an insult, but similar comments have been made here.

 

We are homeschooling parents, afterall, so we must be an inquiring sort of crew. ;)

 

I don't think it is any different than telling liberals that they don't support the constitution!:tongue_smilie:

[lovemyboys]

bar-RACK bar-RACK bar-RACK :lol:

 

 

hopefully that's better than the A-flac duck. :)

[teamturner]

I am not upset that anyone is calling Obama a socialist for supporting a progressive tax structure (which is what this thread is about) as long as they are also willing to go on record calling Teddy Roosevelt, every president since Teddy Roosevelt, 85% of American economists, and nearly every country in the world socialist. Are you willing to do that? If not, you're kidding yourself. Or at least completely misunderstanding economic theory and political history. Which parts of the Constitution do you feel Democratic economic positions are at odds with?

 

I posted yesterday about the socialist policies being born in this country under FDR. That let the cat out of the bag. Zelda so wonderfully illustrated with the camel's nose in the tent analogy (First Language Lessons, very funny!) how we just keep getting futher and further in bed with socialism. I think the primary idea that makes Obama (and in many ways the whole Democratic party) socialist is this idea of "redistribution of wealth". Republicans usually try to reduce taxes and thereby give Americans their own money back to them....isn't that nice?! In this particular election the major economic differences between the two candidates is that McCain does not embrace the idea of "redistribution of wealth" to the extent as Obama. And I agree with those who have said that neither Bush nor McCain are very conservative. I'd like to see the government reduce spending rather than give themselves (or take) more of our money through taxes!

[Spy Car]

I have said that the bail-out was steering us in the direction of socialism and my disappointment with it extends to the Bush administration and John McCain.

 

One poster in this forum argued the President's moves were actually in the direction of "fascism". I disagreed. And, even if there was some "technical" basis for calling the moves "fascistic", I would hope, none-the-less, that we don't descend to calling each other (or the candidates) "Fascists" and "Socialists", as that would be pretty ugly. In fact, its already getting ugly.

 

Just as we don't insult people's faiths, I don't think we want to insult peoples political positions by using labels that are considered (by many) "offensive".

 

Let me note I'm speaking generally, and not leveling a charge at you.

 

I am distressed at the lack of civility on the forum and "name-calling" doesn't help.

 

Bill

[Soph the vet]

 

Listen, I just went and polled the hens (who I'd assumed were sitting this election out) but to my surprise they each said:

 

bar-RACK bar-RACK bar-RACK :lol:

 

 

 

Bill (who is looking forward to tonight's debate)

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[Soph the vet]

There are copies of his birth certificate all over the internet - what other records are you suggesting? Even if he HAD been born somewhere else, his mother was American and therefore he is an American citizen. Is there a question to the authenticity of his birth certificate?

 

What medical records and why? This is a new one I haven't heard.

 

I don't understand why they won't release his college transcripts, but I can't imagine that his grades were any worse than Bush's, McCain's, Kerry's, or Gore's - seems that none of them were great students!:lol: He had to have had at least a 2.0 to graduate from Columbia. He did manage to graduate in the top 10% of his Harvard Law School class.

 

The "copies" of his birth certificate have been called into question by forensic document kind of people. I don't have a convenient link but it is easy enough to find. There is a lawsuit pending by an atty. Philip Berg, a self-described lifelong Democrat and 37yr. law career including credentials to come before the US Supreme Court. that petitions Obama for a real birth certificate. There is obviously some dispute as to whether he was born in Hawaii or Kenya even within his own family (grandmother says Kenya, sister says one hospital in Hawaii, Barack says other hospital in Hawaii). This is what I know so far. I know you can access the lawsuit docs online as I have seen them and now I need to find the link. If I find it I'll post it.

[Spy Car]

There is obviously some dispute as to whether he was born in Hawaii or Kenya even within his own family (grandmother says Kenya, sister says one hospital in Hawaii, Barack says other hospital in Hawaii). This is what I know so far. I know you can access the lawsuit docs online as I have seen them and now I need to find the link. If I find it I'll post it.

 

Soph, what is the relevance of his birthplace?

 

I'm aware that a conspiracy-theorist named Jerome Cori has made the charge, but where's the evidence?

 

And if it was true that he was born in Kenya, what would it matter?

 

Do we think Obama planned this "deception" from the womb, knowing even then that he'd one day run for president?

 

Not that being born outside the country is a "disqualification" for holding the office. John McCain was born outside the country, no one is trying to insinuate anything about him based on where he was born.

 

Bill

[Renee in NC]

Soph, what is the relevance of his birthplace?

 

I'm aware that a conspiracy-theorist named Jerome Cori has made the charge, but where's the evidence?

 

And if it was true that he was born in Kenya, what would it matter?

 

Do we think Obama planned this "deception" from the womb, knowing even then that he'd one day run for president?

 

Not that being born outside the country is a "disqualification" for holding the office. John McCain was born outside the country, no one is trying to insinuate anything about him based on where he was born.

 

Bill

 

That's what I was thinking - he is an American citizen regardless of where he was born.

[Soph the vet]

Soph, what is the relevance of his birthplace?

 

I'm aware that a conspiracy-theorist named Jerome Cori has made the charge, but where's the evidence?

 

And if it was true that he was born in Kenya, what would it matter?

 

Do we think Obama planned this "deception" from the womb, knowing even then that he'd one day run for president?

 

Not that being born outside the country is a "disqualification" for holding the office. John McCain was born outside the country, no one is trying to insinuate anything about him based on where he was born.

 

Bill

If Obama was born in Kenya or any other country, he would not be a qualified candidate for POTUS under the law due to his father not being a citizen of the US and the age of his mother and amount of time she resided in the US as an adult before his birth. McCain was born to two US citizens on a military base in Panama, totally considered natural-born citizen according to the law at the time of his birth.

I do not want to see anyone with a mystery surrounding whether they are a constitutionally sound candidate running for president. I do not think it is a conspiracy, but if there is nothing to hide then Obama needs to give the FEC a real birth certificate, not the forgery on his smear site. It would be easy enough to release a real, not internet, certificate to the media. Wouldn't you do that if you were running for POTUS and these charges came up? I would want to clear it up asap if it were me.

That is why it matters to me and I hope it makes sense.

Again, I am not thrilled about McCain either but he hasn't held back any docs that I am aware of.

[Soph the vet]

That's what I was thinking - he is an American citizen regardless of where he was born.

No, not a "natural-born citizen" according to what I just posted to Bill. Not according to the definition of "natural-born" in 1961, the year he was born. He must be natural- born, over 35yrs. and resided in US for at least 14yrs. He would still be a US citizen but not natural-born US citizen. There is a difference, obviously, or this well-known Philly area lawyer would risk his reputation on such a case.

[Soph the vet]

Just to add, I just went to the snopes site and read what they had to say on it as well and they do dispute the age of this mother part of what I had posted above, but the fact still stands that if it found to be that Obama was born in Kenya or anywhere outside of the US that he would NOT be a natural-born citizen because his father was a Kenyan national.

If anyone comes up with a definitive birth certificate for Barack Obama please let me know.

[Renee in NC]

No, not a "natural-born citizen" according to what I just posted to Bill. Not according to the definition of "natural-born" in 1961, the year he was born. He must be natural- born, over 35yrs. and resided in US for at least 14yrs. He would still be a US citizen but not natural-born US citizen. There is a difference, obviously, or this well-known Philly area lawyer would risk his reputation on such a case.

 

Why wouldn't he be a natural-born citizen? Aren't all babies born to an American mother natural-born, regardless of where it happened?

[Renee in NC]

Just to add, I just went to the snopes site and read what they had to say on it as well and they do dispute the age of this mother part of what I had posted above, but the fact still stands that if it found to be that Obama was born in Kenya or anywhere outside of the US that he would NOT be a natural-born citizen because his father was a Kenyan national.

If anyone comes up with a definitive birth certificate for Barack Obama please let me know.

 

I just read the actual lawsuit filed and it doesn't have anything to do with where he was born. The attorney who filed the suit claims that since Obama's mother married an Indonesian and (supposedly) became an Indonesian citizen at that time, then her son is no longer a citizen (since he didn't swear to US citizenship when he turned 18.)

[kokotg]

Just to add, I just went to the snopes site and read what they had to say on it as well and they do dispute the age of this mother part of what I had posted above, but the fact still stands that if it found to be that Obama was born in Kenya or anywhere outside of the US that he would NOT be a natural-born citizen because his father was a Kenyan national.

If anyone comes up with a definitive birth certificate for Barack Obama please let me know.

 

Have you read the factcheck entry about his birth certificate?

 

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

[Soph the vet]

I just read the actual lawsuit filed and it doesn't have anything to do with where he was born. The attorney who filed the suit claims that since Obama's mother married an Indonesian and (supposedly) became an Indonesian citizen at that time, then her son is no longer a citizen (since he didn't swear to US citizenship when he turned 18.)

I've read the entire lawsuit as well at his site www.obamacrimes.com and it DOES have to do with exactly what you are saying AS WELL AS the birthplace of Barack Obama. If he was born in Kenya, he is not "natural-born" US citizen, if he became an Indonesian citizen then he would have had to reenter the US through immigration and become a "Naturalized" citizen in order to hold the Senate seat he currently has. So there are two different questions in the suit as I read it.

[kokotg]

I posted yesterday about the socialist policies being born in this country under FDR. That let the cat out of the bag.

 

I'm not talking about FDR, I'm talking about Republican Theodore Roosevelt, who was an early proponent of such socialist policies as the estate tax and the progressive income tax.

 

http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php

 

It's certainly true that the highest marginal rate made a big leap under FDR (to levels much higher than what we have today or would have under Obama's proposal (which would return us to 2001 levels)), but it had been just as high in the teens and early twenties.

[Peek a Boo]

He belongs to the Democratic Party, though, not the Socialist Party. Brian Moore is the Socialist nominee. If they thought that Barack Obama was socialist, why would they have nominated their own nominee?

 

maybe the Socialist Party asked him and he declined the nomination?

:D

 

 

:lol:

kidding! just kidding!

[Soph the vet]

Have you read the factcheck entry about his birth certificate?

 

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

Yes, I have read it. There are still questions raised. Factcheck.org is no longer credible as an exonerator of anything related to Obama given that it is owned by Annenberg, the same group that Obama sat on the Board of with you know who.

If the real birth certificate is truly in Obama's possession why will he not produce it for the others to examine who have no conflict of interests (like Annenberg). Why did he and the DNC file a motion to block and a motion for dismissal of the Berg vs. Obama case if he is not hiding anything?

The forensic update on Atlas Shrugs came after this Factcheck deal and seems to raise quite a number of questions.

 

Why are we so scared to get the truth? I am perfectly fine with "Obama is a natural-born citizen" as the truth. But if he is not then I want to know it and I don't think that question has been honestly answered yet.

It will be interesting to see where this goes from here. I think it is sad that the media does not even address this issue and yet 32 million people have hit Berg's website. We have a right to know who the candidates REALLY are and whether they are abiding by the Constitution. That is the bottom line for me.

[kokotg]

Yes, I have read it. There are still questions raised.

 

Well, okay then. I suspect this might be one of those areas in which a search for common ground would be an exercise in frustration ;).

[Spy Car]

Factcheck.org is no longer credible as an exonerator of anything related to Obama given that it is owned by Annenberg, the same group that Obama sat on the Board of with you know who.

 

 

Aren't the Annenberg's Republicans? The late Walter Annenberg was an Ambassador under (and a good friend of) Ronald Reagan.

 

And I've been very impressed by the "even-handedness" of "factcheck.org" in looking into the accuracy (and inaccuracy) of charges coming from both sides.

 

Bill (who forgot to mention his chickens are "Reds". Factcheck :D )

[Saille]

melissaL, one thing I've noticed over the years about Obama is that he refuses to be sidetracked. If he doesn't see it as relevant, he's not going to get into a side discussion that detracts from more important, more immediate tasks. I think it's doggone near impossible that a discussion about how much, um...Muslim-ness? he was exposed to wouldn't devolve into the kind of nonsense that was on the news after the West Virginia primary.

 

The point is, it doesn't seem to be critical enough to who he is now to merit a long talk...it ranks somewhere in there with having had a unique opportunity growing up to see the U.S. from a more global perspective. And he does talk about that. If this was as big a deal as people make it, I truly believe he'd face it head on, as he did with the Rev. Wright issue, when a "denouncement" would have sufficed, and he gave a very frank, and frankly brave speech about race in America instead.

 

Thanks for the discussion. This kind of thing always helps me process all the things boiling around in my head.

[Saille]

Oh, and SpyCar, if I have Easter Egger chickens, does it make them "blues"?

[Soph the vet]

Aren't the Annenberg's Republicans? The late Walter Annenberg was an Ambassador under (and a good friend of) Ronald Reagan.

 

And I've been very impressed by the "even-handedness" of "factcheck.org" in looking into the accuracy (and inaccuracy) of charges coming from both sides.

 

Bill (who forgot to mention his chickens are "Reds". Factcheck :D )

Maybe not all Annenbergs. Just like not all chickens are "Reds":lol:

Which one is your best layer, I'll nominate her for President. Is she over 35, lived here for at least 14 yrs. and is a natural born US chicken?

[Soph the vet]

spy car's chicken for president

paid for by the fowl party

[laylamcb]

spy car's chicken for president

paid for by the fowl party

 

 

 

Mr. Speaker, I cry FOWL!

[Spy Car]

Oh, and SpyCar, if I have Easter Egger chickens, does it make them "blues"?

 

Hmmm....makes be wonder about significance of "red". Two weeks ago that might have been a conundrum. Is "red" Socialist (as I was beginning to suspect of these hens) or is "red" Republican.

 

Fortunately, these is no longer any difference :D

 

We're all Socialists now, comrades :tongue_smilie:

 

:lol: With Soph and Leila.

 

If we are going to have a fowl election. let have a fowl election.

 

Bill (a Red chicken booster)

[Peek a Boo]

Hmmm....makes be wonder about significance of "red". Two weeks ago that might have been a conundrum. Is "red" Socialist (as I was beginning to suspect of these hens) or is "red" Republican.

 

Fortunately, these is no longer any difference :D

 

We're all Socialists now, comrades :tongue_smilie:

 

:lol: With Soph and Leila.

 

If we are going to have a fowl election. let have a fowl election.

 

Bill (a Red chicken booster)

 

ROTFLOL! now THIS is a post :iagree: with :D

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Hmmm....makes be wonder about significance of "red". Two weeks ago that might have been a conundrum. Is "red" Socialist (as I was beginning to suspect of these hens) or is "red" Republican.

 

Fortunately, these is no longer any difference :D

 

We're all Socialists now, comrades :tongue_smilie:

 

:lol: With Soph and Leila.

 

If we are going to have a fowl election. let have a fowl election.

 

Bill (a Red chicken booster)

 

In case anyone missed the current iteration of this phrase Bill quoted.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Yes, I have read it. There are still questions raised. Factcheck.org is no longer credible as an exonerator of anything related to Obama given that it is owned by Annenberg, the same group that Obama sat on the Board of with you know who.

If the real birth certificate is truly in Obama's possession why will he not produce it for the others to examine who have no conflict of interests (like Annenberg).

 

Well, what's in this post bears repeating here. This is why people (ok, well, people like me) scratch their heads over the "Professor Ayers and Sen. Obama served on the same education reform board and went to eight meetings together! and live in the same neighborhood!" furor. Oh, and of course Professor Ayers donated a nice polite $200 to his state senatorial campaign a few years back, and was at a series of coffees in the Hyde Park neighborhood, one of which was in Professor Ayers' house.

 

Unless we're believing the "smoked crack and had gay sex together" whacko rumors, I'm not sure what else there is to be "dug up." "Come clean! Admit it!" I hear this over and over. And yeah, he should so totally do that. Unless, perhaps... this is all there is? Then what?

[Nancy in MI]

I know you people are scared of terrorists and scared of socialists and scared of Muslims.

buying into the propoganda from talk radio ala Nazi Germany)

 

Margaret

 

"you people?" Ouch!

 

"Scared of Muslims?" Not even close!

 

Comparing talk radio to Nazi Germany-isn't that a bit extreme? Talk about being scared!

 

Nancy